[WoW] Death Knights: In our defense, Arthas was being kind of a dick.

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  • DunxcoDunxco Should get a suit Never skips breakfastRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    How about this for an idea:

    Remove the "when Blood runes are on cooldown" requirement to procc Blade Barrier. Just make it a passive 5% damage reduction. With the reduction to all damage taken in Frost Presence by 5%, putting 5 points in Blade Barrier brings us up to 10% Damage reduction, making it the same as any Warrior popping Defensive stance (save the increased armour contribution).

    As is stands going into 3.1, Blade Barrier will be, point for point, the worst damage reduction talent in the game. Paladins can pick up 6% damage reduction through talents (BoSanc and Shield of the Templar) by spending four points. Druids can pick up 12% Damage reduction for three points through Protector of the Pack. Hell, in terms of sheer numbers, Warlocks will be out-doing us with 6% from the three-point talent Molten Skin in the Destro tree. It doesn't stop there; Hunters get 4% for 2 talent points and bonus crit chance, Mages can get 6% from Prismatic Cloak and a cooldown reduction. And all of these are passive, with no triggers required! Sorry, but as it stands going into 3.1, Blade Barrier is crap thanks to needing something to procc it. When we specc to Tank, we're being out-done in terms of point cost, extra bonuses or conditions to meet before said talent is activated, by pure DPS classes, and when that happens something is very very wrong.

    Dunxco on
  • AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I'd imagine that 51 in blood would be superior because you would just use the extra runic power on deathcoil instead of wasting it on UB, which is a subpar AoE ability.

    unholy blight does more damage per runic power then death coil.

    taking it over DRW as a deep blood spec is ludicrous though.

    Angry on
  • Mr SnafflesMr Snaffles Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    forty wrote: »
    I guess I should look up some WWS dumps of unholy DKs. My friend plays unholy well and swears by keeping up UB (I believe even in single target situations), so I'd like to see what it's doing for some other DKs. How much bonus damage to UB do unholy DKs get that blood wouldn't? I know there's Impurity and the 45 pointer, and I'd like to try to extrapolate/interpolate that damage to a blood spec.

    Unholy Blight is a standard part of most deep Unholy builds on live, and the aim is to keep it up as close to 100% as possible. As unintuitive as it feels, it does end up being better DPS than simply spamming Death Coils. That might be even more pronounced if the Unholy Blight glyph makes it to live.

    Mr Snaffles on
  • BrilliantInsanityBrilliantInsanity Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I require your aid. I just recently got defense cap on my DK, whom I have only played as DPS before.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Firetree&n=Wracktacular

    My single target threat generation is fine. My AOE Is lacking... what can I do cycle wise to make my AOE tanking less suck, more threat generating goodness?

    BrilliantInsanity on
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  • DunxcoDunxco Should get a suit Never skips breakfastRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I require your aid. I just recently got defense cap on my DK, whom I have only played as DPS before.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Firetree&n=Wracktacular

    My single target threat generation is fine. My AOE Is lacking... what can I do cycle wise to make my AOE tanking less suck, more threat generating goodness?

    Frost, right?

    D&D > Icy Touch > Pestilence > Blood Tap > Howling Blast. If I had a point to throw around from your build I'd grab Deathchill for a guaranteed crit once in a while, rather than relying on Killing Machine proccs. For me (STILL using a Titansteel Destroyer - I know, I know, taboo) it's proccing quite often during boss fights. You've also got the terrible luck of hitting 80 when people have been raiding for a while now, so people will be expecting a Tank with "zomgepix", but they're being spoilt idiots.

    Also, consider enchanting that gear up! By the time you're clad in purple you'll be scraping for every point of Defense rating you can get your grubby hands on.

    Dunxco on
  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    forty wrote: »
    I guess I should look up some WWS dumps of unholy DKs. My friend plays unholy well and swears by keeping up UB (I believe even in single target situations), so I'd like to see what it's doing for some other DKs. How much bonus damage to UB do unholy DKs get that blood wouldn't? I know there's Impurity and the 45 pointer, and I'd like to try to extrapolate/interpolate that damage to a blood spec.

    Unholy Blight is a standard part of most deep Unholy builds on live, and the aim is to keep it up as close to 100% as possible. As unintuitive as it feels, it does end up being better DPS than simply spamming Death Coils. That might be even more pronounced if the Unholy Blight glyph makes it to live.

    As I hear it, once your crit starts to reach a certain point, Death Coil becomes better DPS point for point than Unholy Blight.

    Maddoc on
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  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Pre 3.1, is there a viable Blood Tanking spec? Probably something like 56/5/10 (so you get perma-D&D and the +5% dodge from frost)? I'm currently 10/5/56 and looking at switching it up a bit.

    KiTA on
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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Blood tanking is horrible. Frost tanking is easymode with the crazy HB crits, whereas Blood tanking is more like "fucking shit, more than two mobs, I feel like a warrior pre-AoE tanking buff".

    I know, I know, just spam D&D, but that's just no fun.

    reVerse on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I prefer Blood Tanking, actually. Coming from a post-WotlK warrior.

    I like the idea of tab-targeting heart strikes, maintaining diseases, and using deathcoils to control multiple mobs.

    Frost feels too much like being a BC paladin tank...Drop Consecrate and win has become Howling Blast and win.

    Dhalphir on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I prefer the style of tanking where I can very easily build aggro on multiple mobs and then I just gotta worry about living through it. Defensive cooldown management, fun. Targetting several mobs individually to apply threat, not so much.

    reVerse on
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I use Unholy right now, and it's basically that. D&D, Dot up, Pest, Boil, and I've got aggro as much as I want.

    But my single target threat sucks. If I don't use D&D, even on single target mobs, I can barley hold aggro.

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Survivability on trash is about 0.1% your problem, and 99.9% your healers problem. If you're dying on trash, you're undergeared, or they're slacking.

    Dhalphir on
  • Mr SnafflesMr Snaffles Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Maddoc wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    I guess I should look up some WWS dumps of unholy DKs. My friend plays unholy well and swears by keeping up UB (I believe even in single target situations), so I'd like to see what it's doing for some other DKs. How much bonus damage to UB do unholy DKs get that blood wouldn't? I know there's Impurity and the 45 pointer, and I'd like to try to extrapolate/interpolate that damage to a blood spec.

    Unholy Blight is a standard part of most deep Unholy builds on live, and the aim is to keep it up as close to 100% as possible. As unintuitive as it feels, it does end up being better DPS than simply spamming Death Coils. That might be even more pronounced if the Unholy Blight glyph makes it to live.

    As I hear it, once your crit starts to reach a certain point, Death Coil becomes better DPS point for point than Unholy Blight.

    Maybe my numbers aren't correct on this, but it looks like the amount of crit you'd need for Death Coil to be better point for point would be remarkably high. I'm not sure if the T8 set bonus and the new Death Coil glyph would change that to any significant degree, though; it'll be worth playing around with post-patch.

    Mr Snaffles on
  • ToldoToldo But actually, WeegianRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I jumped on the DK bandwagon last night after having held out since the beta. After powering through the opening chain, I found a Blood leveling spec that promised no down time.

    This shit is crazy.

    Toldo on
  • xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Toldo wrote: »
    I jumped on the DK bandwagon last night after having held out since the beta. After powering through the opening chain, I found a Blood leveling spec that promised no down time.

    This shit is crazy.

    Even better, there are only about 3 group quests between level 60 and level 80 that you can't solo.

    xzzy on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2009
    Right now I like Unholy for tanking.

    COOLDOWNS! USE THEM ALL! COOLDOWNS COOLDOWNS! OK SUMMON THE BAT DOWN

    AWESOME JOB HAVE A SMOKE

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2009
    My favorite thing to do right now:

    Taking aggro from the current tank while I am in blood presence.

    "Tank, you suck."

    "id like to c u do a btter job ^-^"

    "OK"

    *pulls out tank gear and finishes the instance*

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  • xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    That's the real glory of the DK. Can DPS and tank with the exact same spec.

    xzzy on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2009
    I went with a half-tank half-DPS spec for leveling. I can do good damage and I can tank exceptionally well, I'm just not min-maxed for maximum efficiency

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  • fairweatherfairweather OregonRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The downside of being able to tank / dps fairly well with the same spec is that I get pushed into a dps role when we have other tanks along a lot of times. My guild has 3 geared tanks with a 4th up and coming. When we started Naxx I was relegated to dps most of the time because the other tanks wouldn't do as well in an off role like dps or healing. It wasn't bad though because I still got to roll on tank gear and eventually our MT got bored and now I get to tank most of the time.

    Also, I've heard about some raids that use the rule that requires that dps out damage the tanks in order to be able to roll on any drops. I absolutely love coming in the top 4 damage done in our 10 mans as a tank knowing this.

    With my unholy tanking spec I'm usually in the top 2 for damage done in aoe situations (trash mostly), but I fall to where I should be while tanking single targets. Single target damage while acting as dps isn't too great, but dual specs will help a lot with that.

    fairweather on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Maddoc wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    I guess I should look up some WWS dumps of unholy DKs. My friend plays unholy well and swears by keeping up UB (I believe even in single target situations), so I'd like to see what it's doing for some other DKs. How much bonus damage to UB do unholy DKs get that blood wouldn't? I know there's Impurity and the 45 pointer, and I'd like to try to extrapolate/interpolate that damage to a blood spec.

    Unholy Blight is a standard part of most deep Unholy builds on live, and the aim is to keep it up as close to 100% as possible. As unintuitive as it feels, it does end up being better DPS than simply spamming Death Coils. That might be even more pronounced if the Unholy Blight glyph makes it to live.

    As I hear it, once your crit starts to reach a certain point, Death Coil becomes better DPS point for point than Unholy Blight.

    Maybe my numbers aren't correct on this, but it looks like the amount of crit you'd need for Death Coil to be better point for point would be remarkably high. I'm not sure if the T8 set bonus and the new Death Coil glyph would change that to any significant degree, though; it'll be worth playing around with post-patch.

    Yeah. Last time I checked it, you'd need INSANELY high crit to reach the same damage/runic power as UB.

    shryke on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I finally got new shoulders on monday good by roided football look! Though I swear to god my I can't get a good roll for a new weapon at all. And we still haven't seen the trash epic mace drop in heroic.

    Preacher on
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  • Mr SnafflesMr Snaffles Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Preacher wrote: »
    I finally got new shoulders on monday good by roided football look! Though I swear to god my I can't get a good roll for a new weapon at all. And we still haven't seen the trash epic mace drop in heroic.

    If you're DPS, you could give the dual wield builds a shot and go for single-handed weapons instead. 0/33/38 really is an exceptional build for both single-target and AoE (although not so much after the patch), and single-handed weapons are generally much easier to come by simply because nobody else wants them. Fury warriors have Titan's Grip and roll on two-handers instead; rogues use daggers pretty much exclusively; and paladins only go for tanking one-handers or two-handers. I had just about every single-handed weapon in the game (except Last Laugh) before I got a decent two-handed weapon in the form of Cryptfiend's Bite.

    Mr Snaffles on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I'm a tank I don't dual wield nothing. I just want a new shiny!

    Preacher on
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  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Just be aware that spec is being nerfed into the floor next patch.

    A more frost-heavy DW build has been working pretty well for me, though, so hang onto the 1hs anyway.

    It's not doing crazy place-#1-every-time DPS like the unholy/frost hybrid, but if you play it right then you'll be DPSing as well as 95% of the people in the game with comparable gear to yours.

    (Also, enhancement shamans would roll on 1hs.)

    Arkan on
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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    Blood tanking is horrible. Frost tanking is easymode with the crazy HB crits, whereas Blood tanking is more like "fucking shit, more than two mobs, I feel like a warrior pre-AoE tanking buff".

    I know, I know, just spam D&D, but that's just no fun.
    Just FYI, blood AoE tanks do pretty much the same thing as unholy AoE tanks, at least during the critical first 10 seconds. Beyond that, the only difference is Unholy casts UB and Blood gets to use Heart Strike after the first cycle instead of Blood Boil.

    All this UB talk is interesting though. I need to check out WWS this weekend sometime.

    forty on
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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Except unholy tanks have ebon plague and impurity to boost the damage of DnD.

    Septus on
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  • Mr SnafflesMr Snaffles Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    Just be aware that spec is being nerfed into the floor next patch.

    A more frost-heavy DW build has been working pretty well for me, though, so hang onto the 1hs anyway.

    It's not doing crazy place-#1-every-time DPS like the unholy/frost hybrid, but if you play it right then you'll be DPSing as well as 95% of the people in the game with comparable gear to yours.

    (Also, enhancement shamans would roll on 1hs.)

    Yeah, 3.1 doesn't look good for dual wielders. I completely forgot about Enhancement shammies: the two in my guild almost exclusively bid on fist weapons (which I'm thankful to Blizzard for itemising in their favour), but they could definitely make use of decent one-handers.

    Mr Snaffles on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Septus wrote: »
    Except unholy tanks have ebon plague and impurity to boost the damage of DnD.
    Right, and both of those are passives, thus:
    forty wrote:
    do pretty much the same thing

    Unholy:
    DnD->IT->PS->Pestilence

    Blood:
    DnD->IT->PS->Pestilence

    forty on
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  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Well the frost build I'm using is mostly unchanged next patch.

    Their nerf methodology was basically moving Howling Blast and Gargoyle so you can't have both in the same build... but I don't use gargoyle anyway; I use this wacky 3/50/18 build, which means literally the only change I'll have to make to the point assignment is moving one from subversion into howling blast. That's it.

    Yeah, it uses frost strike as a runic power dump, but it works better than you'd think. Deathcoil might not be weapon damage but with all the +frostdamage%/+criticalstrikedamage% modifiers in deep frost, Frost Strike will do more damage than Deathcoil roughly by the time you're mainhanding a slow level 80 blue. Even without those modifiers it'd start scaling better by the time you're mainhanding something that drops off of kel'thuzad in terms of iLvl.

    Again: It's not exceptional dps, but it is not subpar either: it's fully competitive and comparable to every other DPS spec in the game. Mostly, the only reason to go with it (and the reason I'm sticking with it) is to do something different so you're not just another DK lolling along with a 2her.

    Arkan on
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  • Mr SnafflesMr Snaffles Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    Well the frost build I'm using is mostly unchanged next patch.

    Their nerf methodology was basically moving Howling Blast and Gargoyle so you can't have both in the same build... but I don't use gargoyle anyway; I use this wacky 3/50/18 build, which means literally the only change I'll have to make to the point assignment is moving one from subversion into howling blast. That's it.

    Yeah, it uses frost strike as a runic power dump, but it works better than you'd think. Deathcoil might not be weapon damage but with all the +frostdamage%/+criticalstrikedamage% modifiers in deep frost, Frost Strike will do more damage than Deathcoil roughly by the time you're mainhanding a slow level 80 blue. Even without those modifiers it'd start scaling better by the time you're mainhanding something that drops off of kel'thuzad in terms of iLvl.

    Again: It's not exceptional dps, but it is not subpar either: it's fully competitive and comparable to every other DPS spec in the game. Mostly, the only reason to go with it (and the reason I'm sticking with it) is to do something different so you're not just another DK lolling along with a 2her.

    I've tried a similar deep Frost build to that before. The DPS is perfectly fine, and I have to say it was the most enjoyable build I've tried. The rotation was simple and a lot of fun (I ran with the lazy man's BS>BS>OB>OB>FS>FS | OB>OB>OB>FS>FS), and you didn't have to worry about annoying things like timing the Gargoyle right or keeping your Ghoul alive to optimise DPS.

    Mr Snaffles on
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Heh, I suspect that's where my build falls flat. I can't build a stable rotation for it. I do have this logical sequence of actions that dictate what I do, though:

    1. Is my runic power above 85? If yes, use frost strike. If no, then (2)
    2. Is Frost Fever on the mob/will it expire before your next frost rune comes up? If yes, reapply it.
    3. Is howling blast off cooldown? If yes, use it.
    4. Is Blood Plague off the target? If yes, reapply it. (Low priority since it's not essential and just adds a little bit of bonus damage)
    5. Are all my runes on CD except the blood runes? If so:
    a. If they're blood, use blood strike/pestilence.
    b. If they're death, stall using horn of winter/frost strike/icy touch and use Howling Blast ASAP.
    6. Is everything on cooldown and I have no runic power? If yes, use Horn of Winter for +10 runic power.

    Essentially, keep diseases up (with priority for frost fever over blood plague), use howling blast as every 4th ability (HB-something-something-something-HB), and use FS as filler when I'm trying to wait for HB to cool down. The glyphs of icy touch and Frost strike are essential, as otherwise there isn't enough runic power to keep everything running and I have to wait several seconds before I can continue acting.


    Generally this means my starting rotation from 0 runic power/no death runes looks something like IT-HB-PS-BS-BS-FS-FS-HoW-FS-HB-IT-FS-FS-HB-PS, but I just lose it from there and can't keep track of things past then and have to just go freeform. It gets even more complicated when Rime procs. You'd definitely need a rune/disease timer mod to make it work (I use magic runes and it goes great).



    I'm probably making it sound worse than it is. Once I get in the rhythym of it I very rarely screw up and do something stupid with this build/strategy.

    Arkan on
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  • Mr SnafflesMr Snaffles Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    That really does sound horrific, but familiarity with a priority-based system instead of rotations'll likely pay off in the long run with just about any build, compared to my sub-optimal 2-button bashing. :P

    Mr Snaffles on
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Yeah, I'd say that unless you're some sort of computational prediction machine that if you (or hell anyone) were to do it the way I do it you'd need some kind of rune/disease-tracking mod.

    Like I said, I use magicrunes, and the way I have it set up right now is the runes kinda look like the guitar hero note track with the disease timers on the side, so it's a lot like playing guitar hero.

    Except instead of busting out sweet guitar riffs, I freeze people to death with unholy magicks.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • Mr SnafflesMr Snaffles Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Mr Snaffles on
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Oh man, I didn't even think of that. :^:

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    That really does sound horrific, but familiarity with a priority-based system instead of rotations'll likely pay off in the long run with just about any build, compared to my sub-optimal 2-button bashing. :P
    Eh, that's fine for now. 3.1 is going to assrape anyone who doesn't use diseases, though.

    forty on
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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited March 2009

    I like how one of the example talents is called Rock N' Roll Racing.

    reVerse on
  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Yeah, my mistake on the DC/UB comparison, the theorycrafting I was reading was based on ptr, not live.

    As an aside, I'm sort of interested in how a 2/10/59 or 0/10/61 build might play out for the 10% boost to Shadow damage.

    And then the boost to Frost Fever's slowing effect would just be a little bonus for group situations.

    Maddoc on
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  • DunxcoDunxco Should get a suit Never skips breakfastRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Dilemma:

    Cryptfiend's Bite or Titansteel Destroyer, until I can get Inevitable Defeat? Being a Dwarf means I'm picking up the bonus Expertise from using the Titansteel, but it's just a quick resocket away, and the extra agility from Cryptfiend's will make up for the dodge I have to socket out of, right?

    ... Right?

    Dunxco on
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