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DarwinsFavoriteTortoise
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I think that everything is relative. This is illustrated nicely by ants. A boot coming down on an ant just ended its life, yet from our perspective, that step was just one of many on the way to a movie. The same exact action carried vastly different meanings for the parties involved.
To further the metaphor, lets say that I dump a bucket of water over an ant colony. To me, I just spilled some water, and I'll be doing something else in a few minutes. To those ants, however, I just changed their lives forever. The paths that they created are gone. The tunnels they spent hours digging are flooded. The majority of their population is dead. The same exact action held hugely different consequences for me and for the ants.
This is why I hate religion and science. To me, they both seem like futile attempts to explain things that we cannot grasp in the slightest. Why even try to explain it? Why even try to understand it? Lets say the ants spend years analyzing what exactly happened, creating different belief systems and scientific explanations because of it, and by some miracle they come to the conclusion that someone just spilled some water. What did they accomplish? How do you think they feel, knowing that what they've dedicated their lives to was just an accident? That what they've crafted their existence into is meaningless?
As a side note, I absolutely hate it when people are atheists because "Oh, I don't believe what I can't see." That logic is so flawed. Do you believe that there is a Nile river? Yes? Have you ever seen it? Oh, only pictures? Well, we all know pictures can be fabricated, so how do you know its really there? We all use faith, whether we like it or not.
So, D&D, do I stand alone in my hate for both religion and science? Is there a title for that? Either way, do you agree/disagree with what I've said?
EDIT: I apologize for any incoherency. Its late, just ask and I'll clear anything up if doesn't make sense/isn't explained properly.
To further the metaphor, lets say that I dump a bucket of water over an ant colony. To me, I just spilled some water, and I'll be doing something else in a few minutes. To those ants, however, I just changed their lives forever. The paths that they created are gone. The tunnels they spent hours digging are flooded. The majority of their population is dead. The same exact action held hugely different consequences for me and for the ants.
This is why I hate religion and science. To me, they both seem like futile attempts to explain things that we cannot grasp in the slightest. Why even try to explain it? Why even try to understand it? Lets say the ants spend years analyzing what exactly happened, creating different belief systems and scientific explanations because of it, and by some miracle they come to the conclusion that someone just spilled some water. What did they accomplish? How do you think they feel, knowing that what they've dedicated their lives to was just an accident? That what they've crafted their existence into is meaningless?
As a side note, I absolutely hate it when people are atheists because "Oh, I don't believe what I can't see." That logic is so flawed. Do you believe that there is a Nile river? Yes? Have you ever seen it? Oh, only pictures? Well, we all know pictures can be fabricated, so how do you know its really there? We all use faith, whether we like it or not.
So, D&D, do I stand alone in my hate for both religion and science? Is there a title for that? Either way, do you agree/disagree with what I've said?
EDIT: I apologize for any incoherency. Its late, just ask and I'll clear anything up if doesn't make sense/isn't explained properly.
DarwinsFavoriteTortoise on
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Yes. No. And I disagree.
I'm sure you'll enjoy living in a cave without any of science's accomplishments which are very tangible and very real. Science is also damn cool. You're basically angry at the fact that you're not some sort of omniscient god who can understand everything at the same time, all the time.
Science has real answers. When we learn them we gain tools. All those bits of technology I mentioned started off with scientists looking at the world around them and saying 'how is this happening' or 'how can I make use of this tiny little piece of knowledge'
I can't fucking believe someone would actually post about hating science on the internet.
It seems like you hate the pursuit of knowledge. Why is this something you would dislike?
Me, I like knowing things.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Like I said in the paragraph you quoted, this "knowledge" is entirely based on perspective, so honestly, I really think we know nothing.
Humans have put themselves up on this pedestal, making laws and declaring facts about things that have been around for billions of years (I would argue forever), like we truly understand them. Just because we can label and manipulate things doesn't mean that we know everything, and I personally think that it is very arrogant of mankind to make such claims.
I mean, do you really believe that everything in science is true? How long ago did we believe that the Earth was at the center of the universe? That the Earth was flat? I would think that this would humble some of the people claiming that it is impossible for science to be wrong.
This is the intellectual equivalent of saying 'meh'.
I mean, if you're fine with shrugging off complex ideas and critical thinking that's great, but please do it as far away from modern society as possible. Say an Amish village.
true, we should probably just go back to hunter-gathering with all it's assorted sundry pleasures.
really, the fact that you're making this argument on the internet is staggeringly ironic
edit: also if you really want to argue the 'everything is relative' point, the ants example is not really a good one
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
have I summed things up
*well perhaps the technical term is 'nihilistic'
I think it's completely possible to love and hate things in different contexts. When he says science, he doesn't mean "the thing that gave us all this cool stuff," he means "the thing that is pitted against religeon and causes arguments constantly."
I would argue that hunter-gathering is how humans are supposed to live in the first place, and so us "degenerating" back to that point would actually be beneficial for us all.
Look, I don't see any valuable advancements that science has made for human society outside of the bubble that we have all created and that we live in. Look at the big picture. Thanks to science, overpopulation is going to be a very big issue very soon. Thanks to science, I'm eating processed food that is horrible for my body instead of hunting it and making it myself. Thanks to science, millions of lives can be destroyed at the touch of a button.
Honestly, I think if humans reverted back to hunter-gathering status, it would be better for us and better for the Earth.
The Amish have fancy gas fridges that I'm pretty sure are the product of SCIENCE. And that one guy in Witness had a swivel chair that looked all kinds of complicated. I fear they would not meet the strict needs of the OP.
EDIT: I was right. The Amish are like evil technological wizards to this guy. Caves and weapons made out of flint are plainly the way forward.
Also, yeah, as someone pointed out. You're on the internet. Complaining that SCIENCE is rubbish. What?
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On behalf of the many, many people who are only alive today thanks to medical science, I'd like to say "Fuck you"
If you really believe this, how about you put the computer down, ditch your pants, and go climb a damn tree?
It's like Michael Jackson. You love his music but you hate his child-molesting personality.
but if we accept your silly no-nothing premise, we don't know that hunter-gathering is any better than what we're doing now
in fact, based on your reasoning, the only thing we can even really measure at all is our own existence. We therefore ought to take any steps possible to extend our own existence, and hang the rest.
I will take the crazy illusionary world that has modern medicine, thanks
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
What I'm trying to say you're a troll that actually wants to live like a troll. That's meta.
The neat thing is that by examining how ants can survive a rainfall can lead to better human construction and inventions and an overall increase in productivity/safety. Why would you be against that?
In the Old Testament, people lived for hundreds of years. Man's only natural predator was God. We need to get back to that place.
Supposed to? Says who? Don't forget that however we may like to consider ourselves different, we're still animals. A city is no less "natural" than your ant colony.
Sounds like you pretty much hate religion and known jack about science. Religion attempts to explain things we know jack about without attempting to learn anything about them. That is its job. If the ants determine it was a divine punishment that will happen only in the ages when an ant is born with a certain sign that is religion.
There is no "belief" when it comes to science. The whole point of science is "well i know jack shit about something, lets try and learn about it, study it, take a guess, test in an unbiased a way as possible, and then look at the results and form conclusions from that"
If those ants decided to set up scouts on other hills to watch to see if they had a similar crisis, studied to ensure rain was not the cause, collected water and dumped in on a fake hive they built to test if the results where similar, and eventually learned yes in fact some jackass dumped water on our hive they have learned how to tell that event from similar events.
Moreover were ants to have the capacity they could even begin to design underground tunnel systems that might be water resistant. They could study how their holes respond to various types of flooding and eventually build homes that when you dumped a bucket of water on them would respond by funneling the water into an underground reservoir all while activating the defense which causes little tiny ant sized lasers to atomize you.
Shit happens, its only meaningless if you fail to learn from it. Learning from it, well that is science.
Who will join us in our campaign for simpler living?
I'll have a Facebook group for us to post in ready later today.
The universe will still exist because of physics and gravity will still keep you grounded to a great big ball of rock and gas.
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I don't really see how you can have the one without the other. It's like claiming you like rap music, but hate the culture that spawns it. They are the same thing. Science requires that we challenge our current world view so we may change it to more accurately reflect the world.
If his complaints are what you describe, it should be about tactless evangelism, which isn't a requirement of religion or science, and only hurts both in the eyes of the other.
Why are you all attacking me so viciously? I am merely using my free will and voicing some of my thoughts.
On topic: I see humans as a flaw, to be honest. Sure, some species cause the extinction of another, but thats just how it is. Humans, however, cause dozens of different types of animals and plants to become extinct every week, and I just don't see how thats right. We're literally raping the world for our own benefit.
And on the medical point, frankly, medicinal science is halting the natural checks and balance system employed by nature (ie diseases, viruses, etc). Sure, I want the overall advancement of the species, but I don't think this is the way to go...I think our existence with the Earth should be harmonious, not destructive.
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On the other side of that argument, with the added selection pressure we'd still be evolving to better provide for and protect ourselves. We adapt our environment and our society to suit our needs.
Humans are best described as a virus. We destroy or change the host body (Earth) and we actively adapt to counter anything thrown at us. Be it evolving to be immune to certain antibiotics or finding a way to cure cancer. Either way if you look at us from the prospective that we are not supposed to be at harmony with our environment we are not only not flawed, we are actually damn good at what we are supposed to do. Perhaps you might want to belief (religion) that we are in fact the universal counterbalance to planets able to sustain life. Their cancer if you will.
Because I've just watched 27 episodes of House it's making me want to clearly and bluntly tell you you're a colossal moron who's ideas are as disgusting as they are ignorant.
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Case in point, boot and ants. To us it was just another step, to the ant(s) it was a giant disaster from the heavens. Subjectively these are entirely two different events with drastically different outcomes, however objectively this is one single event which lead to multiple outcomes based off of varying factors going in and coming out of said event. In other words, just because you see it differently then someone else it doesn't mean the exact same thing didn't happen.
Also, if you want to hang with people who feel the same way try to find some philosophical groups who are into the same sort of "reality is relative" sort of thing.
Edit: By claiming that our natural order is back to a hunter-gathering society so that we can reduce our population, become more "natural" and throw off these shakles of science you are making me laugh. Why? Because you're doing so over a computer to a comunity of people who are in no way going to share your view at all. The only reason we are the dominant species on the planet is because we used our intelligence to use weapons, tactics and societies to overcome obsticacles. Physically, compaired to other animals, we just suck.
Also, claiming to know what is best for humans while also claiming that all knowledge is relative and we know nothing... bravo...
I think everything should go to a certain extent.
I think humans would be most harmonious with the Earth if we were to be a hunter-gatherer society.
We're being vicious because you're promulgating nonsense.
Do all of the ants die every time it rains?
Humanity tries to explain phenomena through a variety of means (Religion, Science, Myths, Philosophy) to actually gain insight to the world around them. Why are you disparaging their means to understand the world? Obviously it's relative depending on point of view as pointed by your ant analogy, but the fact that it's relative doesn't mean we all say "Fuck it, who cares"
Scientific understanding and discovery has led to many inventions that make a life a lot better and easier for all of us. People don't realize how amazing toilet paper is until you don't have it. Religion on the other hand fills that basic human thirst of "Why am I here" You seem to say both don't matter because they don't mean nothing, but to many many people it does matter. It does matter how we understand how the weather works, it does matter to know that Jesus died for our sins and so on.
Let's take your ant analogy again. Suppose that they did find that someone spilled some water. That they did find out it was a accident. So what. That doesn't undermine their existence in any way, nor does it undermine the years of effort that they took to find it. As if finding the answer that they weren't looking for undermines the entire process, or that it was useless. Useless maybe to you, but maybe not to them.
And aren't you using a straw man argument for the atheist proposal, either way that analogy is too extreme to be warranted as a valid analogy. And I don't know if it's your wording but belief in faith does not mean belief in a God/Gods.
I think your going to find out that a lot of people disagree with you mostly because your argument isn't really that sound (that is I believe everything is relative, therefore anything process that tries to define the world is useless)
Your thoughts are stupid. If you didn't want to open yourself to criticism, perhaps this is not the place for you.
This is the kind of hippie bullshit so divorced from reality that it gives me a nosebleed.
Do you have any idea how destructively violent existence is? It's a constant struggle between opposing forces. Animals don't live in some kind of gaia-enforced Disneyland. And the animals killed and eaten for food don't put up token resistance and then beautifully expire because it's their time to go in the circle of life. They struggle and they hurt, because being eaten fucking sucks.
And saying that man has evolved from his hunter-gatherer roots is massively naive. Maybe the cosmetics have changed, but man's still an aquisitive species. But we've replaced berries and meat with cars and retirement homes. As man's capacities have evolved, so have his needs and desires.
There was a special on PBS a few years back about a group of people who simulated a pilgrim colony for a few months. They came to the conclusion that working all day for basic needs is a pain in the ass. You might want to hunt up a copy and give it a watch.