...I'm sure we could eventually narrow this down to "ticking time bomb only applies to terrorists who look vaguely Muslim in appearance and are through some backwards logic potentially connected to the 9/11 attacks" and the pro-torture people still wouldn't see anything wrong with this.
Also, I don't watch 24, does he ever torture white conservatives?:P
Todd Blodgett, a former Reagan White House aide who later worked with several extremist groups, met regularly with von Brunn in the 1990s and early 2000s.
"Von Brunn is obsessed with Jewish people," Blodgett said. "He had equal contempt for both Jews and blacks, but if he had to pick one group to wipe out, he'd always say it would be Jews."
Blodgett was part-owner of Resistance Records, which distributed music by white racist groups, and worked for Willis Carto, the founder of Liberty Lobby, a radical right group.
yes, however could people blame the mainstream right for coddling these views... it's just insane.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Todd Blodgett, a former Reagan White House aide who later worked with several extremist groups, met regularly with von Brunn in the 1990s and early 2000s.
"Von Brunn is obsessed with Jewish people," Blodgett said. "He had equal contempt for both Jews and blacks, but if he had to pick one group to wipe out, he'd always say it would be Jews."
Blodgett was part-owner of Resistance Records, which distributed music by white racist groups, and worked for Willis Carto, the founder of Liberty Lobby, a radical right group.
yes, however could people blame the mainstream right for coddling these views... it's just insane.
I don't think anybody's argued that they coddle those views. The criticisms are targetted at the mainstream right wing media for using extremely charged language (we're under attack, they're coming to get you personally, etc) with no real veracity while indirectly addressing these kinds of people.
"The responsible white separatist community condemns this," he said. "It makes us look bad."
As fucked up as these people are ... I think everything I and others have argued against Evander also applies to how we treat the various shades of crazy white supremacists.
I mean, if you're a white "separatist" you're retarded, and your worldview is dangerous. But if you are not actually advocating violence, then I am willing to not lump you in the same boat as someone who goes and shoots up a museum.
I don't see how anybody can say the right wing hasn't advocated violence or hatred against jews. Granted, it's not as over in general as the hate on muslims, blacks, gays, atheists.
But I distinctly remember Glenn Beck having a pastor on his show on CNN, going off about the end of days, jews not going to heaven, how the holocaust was needed to help recreated jerusalem and how we needed a war there, which would kill all the jews, to trigger the end times.
There is also the "jew controlled media" which backs liberals.
The hate is there, it's just not as obviously tossed out.
Seeing as Von Brunn hates Christian's, I don't think he was listening in agreement with Beck's Pastor buddy.
And the "Jew controlled media" is a line used by crazies on BOTH sides. I've had it used to explain to me, more than once, why coverage of Palestine will never be fair (from a person who honestly believed it)
"The responsible white separatist community condemns this," he said. "It makes us look bad."
As fucked up as these people are ... I think everything I and others have argued against Evander also applies to how we treat the various shades of crazy white supremacists.
I mean, if you're a white "separatist" you're retarded, and your worldview is dangerous. But if you are not actually advocating violence, then I am willing to not lump you in the same boat as someone who goes and shoots up a museum.
While there may be a mix of people who advocate violence and those who don't among white separatists I think that quote reads more like
"The responsible white separatist community pretends to condemns this," he said. "were afraid of the backlash."
"The responsible white separatist community condemns this," he said. "It makes us look bad."
As fucked up as these people are ... I think everything I and others have argued against Evander also applies to how we treat the various shades of crazy white supremacists.
I mean, if you're a white "separatist" you're retarded, and your worldview is dangerous. But if you are not actually advocating violence, then I am willing to not lump you in the same boat as someone who goes and shoots up a museum.
I agree that there are degrees of racist behavior, some of which have to be accepted in our free society. The guy who is content to spout racist epithets occasionally is obviously less dangerous to humanity in general than the guy who is stockpiling guns and actively contemplating violent action.
That said, the idea that someone is "making [racists] look bad" is completely absurd to me.
"The responsible white separatist community condemns this," he said. "It makes us look bad."
As fucked up as these people are ... I think everything I and others have argued against Evander also applies to how we treat the various shades of crazy white supremacists.
I mean, if you're a white "separatist" you're retarded, and your worldview is dangerous. But if you are not actually advocating violence, then I am willing to not lump you in the same boat as someone who goes and shoots up a museum.
So you think it is right to condemn the entire political-right for this shooting, but non-violent white supremescists get called crazy, and then told to run along?
"The responsible white separatist community condemns this," he said. "It makes us look bad."
As fucked up as these people are ... I think everything I and others have argued against Evander also applies to how we treat the various shades of crazy white supremacists.
I mean, if you're a white "separatist" you're retarded, and your worldview is dangerous. But if you are not actually advocating violence, then I am willing to not lump you in the same boat as someone who goes and shoots up a museum.
So you think it is right to condemn the entire political-right for this shooting, but non-violent white supremescists get called crazy, and then told to run along?
Non-violent white supremecists are exactly like the non-violent PeTA members we were discussing earlier. They have the right to say what they want to say (to a point) and advocate their positions as long as they don't do so in a way that puts people in danger. That's part of what living in a free society entails.
Evander, how do you know Von Brumm hates Christians?
His web site is called the "Holy Western Empire" and his book seems directed at Christians (warning that the Jews want to "kill the best gentiles"). I don't see anything on his website that explicitly identifies von Brumm himself as a Christian, but he does post a letter that says "It is my conviction that James von Brunn deserves the gratitude and assistance of every White Christian citizen of these United States."
Non-violent white supremecists are exactly like the non-violent PeTA members we were discussing earlier. They have the right to say what they want to say (to a point) and advocate their positions as long as they don't do so in a way that puts people in danger. That's part of what living in a free society entails.
Hold on. They're not "exactly like nonviolent PETA members."
PETA members believe in a philosophy that extends certain basic rights to animals. That is entirely reasonable. The problem with PETA is that they have incredibly stupid marketing for this philosophy that annoys a lot of people.
White supremacists believe that the white race is biologically superior to all other races. This is fucking nonsense. I'm not in a position to comment on their marketing. But it is disengenuous to compare annoying animal rights proponents with people who believe the melanin count of your skin is a meaningful measure of inherent cultural superiority.
So you think it is right to condemn the entire political-right for this shooting, but non-violent white supremescists get called crazy, and then told to run along?
I didn't say that. You are strawmanning my position, Evander. This is one of many of your posts on this topic where you are apparently unable or unwilling to see the nuance in a position, and it's incredibly frustrating to talk about this with you.
Non-violent white supremecists are exactly like the non-violent PeTA members we were discussing earlier. They have the right to say what they want to say (to a point) and advocate their positions as long as they don't do so in a way that puts people in danger. That's part of what living in a free society entails.
Hold on. They're not "exactly like nonviolent PETA members."
PETA members believe in a philosophy that extends certain basic rights to animals. That is entirely reasonable. The problem with PETA is that they have incredibly stupid marketing for this philosophy that annoys a lot of people.
White supremacists believe that the white race is biologically superior to all other races. This is fucking nonsense. I'm not in a position to comment on their marketing. But it is disengenuous to compare annoying animal rights proponents with people who believe the melanin count of your skin is a meaningful measure of inherent cultural superiority.
Clarification; By "exactly" I really meant "for the purposes of this thread they represent the same demographic within their respective movements, the one that doesn't resort to direct violence to accomplish it's goals."
I'm not directly equating PeTA with bigots. For the purposes of Evander's black and white approach to extremism that's being discussed, though, they are comprable.
Non-violent white supremecists are exactly like the non-violent PeTA members we were discussing earlier. They have the right to say what they want to say (to a point) and advocate their positions as long as they don't do so in a way that puts people in danger. That's part of what living in a free society entails.
Non-violent white supremecists are exactly like the non-violent PeTA members we were discussing earlier. They have the right to say what they want to say (to a point) and advocate their positions as long as they don't do so in a way that puts people in danger. That's part of what living in a free society entails.
Exactly the same legally.
Not exactly the same morally.
Jesus Christ. In the thousands of posts I've had here, have I said anything to give the impression that I don't think openly racist people are a menace to society?
Evander, how do you know Von Brumm hates Christians?
His web site is called the "Holy Western Empire" and his book seems directed at Christians (warning that the Jews want to "kill the best gentiles"). I don't see anything on his website that explicitly identifies von Brumm himself as a Christian, but he does post a letter that says "It is my conviction that James von Brunn deserves the gratitude and assistance of every White Christian citizen of these United States."
I'm not disputing you, just asking for a source.
I haven't found any evidence of this either. Anyone have a source for this?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Clarification; By "exactly" I really meant "for the purposes of this thread they represent the same demographic within their respective movements, the one that doesn't resort to direct violence to accomplish it's goals."
I'm not directly equating PeTA with bigots. For the purposes of Evander's black and white approach to extremism that's being discussed, though, they are comprable.
I recall reading that he was a rabid anti-Christian along with being anti-lots-of-things. The guy was a kook, I wouldn't be surprised to discover he was anti-forks or whatever in the near future.
So, this is the second shooting where the gunman was afraid Obama was going to take his guns. Good thing no one in the media is perpetuating that notion.
I recall reading that he was a rabid anti-Christian along with being anti-lots-of-things. The guy was a kook, I wouldn't be surprised to discover he was anti-forks or whatever in the near future.
do you recall where you read this? Everything I read said he hated Jews, Blacks, and the gov'ment...
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
I recall reading that he was a rabid anti-Christian along with being anti-lots-of-things. The guy was a kook, I wouldn't be surprised to discover he was anti-forks or whatever in the near future.
do you recall where you read this? Everything I read said he hated Jews, Blacks, and the gov'ment...
A good number of his screeds were anti-Religion in general. Christianity didn't really factor into his crazy on the level that Judaism did, but he wasn't a huge fan either.
Ironically, he seemed to be obsessed with the Holy Roman Empire, but then I wouldn't expect someone crazy enough to shoot up a holocaust museum to be rational enough to man up to their own cognitive dissonance.
The suggestion that the Standard may have been a target complicates any view of the racist shooter in contemporary left-right terms. Von Brunn's white supremacist roots put him under the rubric of a "right-wing extremist," but the substance of his views -- which included everything from believing that President Bush may have been in on the September 11 attacks to denying that President Obama is an American citizen -- are too far on the fringe to fit into conventional political classification.
The focus on the Standard, though, appears to be of a piece with his central motivation: Anti-Semitism. In one essay, Von Brunn attacked "JEWS-NEOCONS-BILL O’REILLY," and the suggestion that neoconservatism is a specifically Jewish conspiracy is common on the racist fringe.
Some of the more extreme Anti-Semites are also known for hating Christianity (although not to the same degree) because Christianity began as an offshoot of Judaism. These are the sorts of lunatics who get into the whole "nazi pagan" thing. Either that, or they're into the whole idea of a biological "master race" in a Nietzschean kind of way that precludes religion altogether. I wouldn't be surprised if this guy was one of those.
Another totally not-at-all-even-slightly-right-wing quote via TPM:
"You want my weapons -- this is how you'll get them. The Holocaust is a lie. Obama was created by Jews. Obama does what his Jew owners tell him to do. Jews captured America's money. Jews control the mass media."
He was described as anti-Christian in addition to being a rabid anti-Semite in a lot of the initial press regarding the incident. Now it looks like many of the newer articles are just showing anti-Semite. I suppose that changes a few things.
He was described as anti-Christian in addition to being a rabid anti-Semite in a lot of the initial press regarding the incident. Now it looks like many of the newer articles are just showing anti-Semite. I suppose that changes a few things.
He essentially claimed modern Christianity is horribly pro-Jew and therefore bad.
Evander, how do you know Von Brumm hates Christians?
His web site is called the "Holy Western Empire" and his book seems directed at Christians (warning that the Jews want to "kill the best gentiles"). I don't see anything on his website that explicitly identifies von Brumm himself as a Christian, but he does post a letter that says "It is my conviction that James von Brunn deserves the gratitude and assistance of every White Christian citizen of these United States."
So you think it is right to condemn the entire political-right for this shooting, but non-violent white supremescists get called crazy, and then told to run along?
I didn't say that. You are strawmanning my position, Evander. This is one of many of your posts on this topic where you are apparently unable or unwilling to see the nuance in a position, and it's incredibly frustrating to talk about this with you.
I see all the nuance.
I'm dropping it to help you all understand what is missing when you try to blame Von Brunn on the GOP, ignoring all of the nuance in THAT relationship (or lack thereof)
Because when I try to approach any of you directly about that topic, you just clam up
It's hard to consider these shooters completely isolated crazies when you hear of them repeating talking points, regularly interacting with 'non-crazy' right wing groups, posting on redstate and so on. The mainstream right definitely has an impetus to completely disown the racist and violent subcultures that find 'safe harbor' in the party. Don't make up excuses for these people. Don't respond to cold blooded murders with "THIS IS ALL THE LEFT'S FAULT".
He was described as anti-Christian in addition to being a rabid anti-Semite in a lot of the initial press regarding the incident. Now it looks like many of the newer articles are just showing anti-Semite. I suppose that changes a few things.
He essentially claimed modern Christianity is horribly pro-Jew and therefore bad.
That jibes with his anti-neo con thing, which jibes with his anti-government thing. I don't think any of that necessarily makes him anti-christian.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Non-violent white supremecists are exactly like the non-violent PeTA members we were discussing earlier. They have the right to say what they want to say (to a point) and advocate their positions as long as they don't do so in a way that puts people in danger. That's part of what living in a free society entails.
I asked for examples of preaching violence towards Jews. You may be shocked to learn this, but not every anti-Jew statement is the same.
The type of stuff on Glenn Beck or spewing forth from Coulter is more along the lines of Martin Luther's take on the Jews, which was that he ONLY disliked them because they were a non-Christian group (who refused to convert). It was not against the Jews for anything inherent to them,selves.
In order to incite violence against a group, you need more than just "they should convert". Especially when the man in question (Von Brun) who this thread has ALWAYS been about, is anti-Christian.
As for Buchanon, yes, he's a cockmunch. What has he been saying to incite violence within the past few months, or even anything violence specific within the past few years, though (which is the period of time being discussed)? The link you gave me is a ten year old adaptation of a 15 year old essay.
Evander, how do you know Von Brumm hates Christians?
His web site is called the "Holy Western Empire" and his book seems directed at Christians (warning that the Jews want to "kill the best gentiles"). I don't see anything on his website that explicitly identifies von Brumm himself as a Christian, but he does post a letter that says "It is my conviction that James von Brunn deserves the gratitude and assistance of every White Christian citizen of these United States."
I'm not disputing you, just asking for a source.
Optimus Zed has the sources.
We should probably amend this to "OptimusZed saw the sources as they hit the news, but didn't keep a running list of links to proof of teh crayzee."
He was described as anti-Christian in addition to being a rabid anti-Semite in a lot of the initial press regarding the incident. Now it looks like many of the newer articles are just showing anti-Semite. I suppose that changes a few things.
He essentially claimed modern Christianity is horribly pro-Jew and therefore bad.
That jibes with his anti-neo con thing, which jibes with his anti-government thing. I don't think any of that necessarily makes him anti-christian.
Read the crazy doc I linked just a few posts ago. Describing him primarily as anti-Christian is inaccurate, but the guy had no affection for the church.
Posts
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
All the time.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
yes, however could people blame the mainstream right for coddling these views... it's just insane.
I don't think anybody's argued that they coddle those views. The criticisms are targetted at the mainstream right wing media for using extremely charged language (we're under attack, they're coming to get you personally, etc) with no real veracity while indirectly addressing these kinds of people.
Von Brunn was not well known for BEING A REPUBLICAN.
I mean, if you're a white "separatist" you're retarded, and your worldview is dangerous. But if you are not actually advocating violence, then I am willing to not lump you in the same boat as someone who goes and shoots up a museum.
Seeing as Von Brunn hates Christian's, I don't think he was listening in agreement with Beck's Pastor buddy.
And the "Jew controlled media" is a line used by crazies on BOTH sides. I've had it used to explain to me, more than once, why coverage of Palestine will never be fair (from a person who honestly believed it)
While there may be a mix of people who advocate violence and those who don't among white separatists I think that quote reads more like
"The responsible white separatist community pretends to condemns this," he said. "were afraid of the backlash."
Fair enough
But she's heavily pro-Christian, which would have turned Von Brunn off to what she was saying.
Can you show me any kind of anti-Jew thing within mainstream conservatism that ISN'T rooted in Christianity?
That said, the idea that someone is "making [racists] look bad" is completely absurd to me.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
So you think it is right to condemn the entire political-right for this shooting, but non-violent white supremescists get called crazy, and then told to run along?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
His web site is called the "Holy Western Empire" and his book seems directed at Christians (warning that the Jews want to "kill the best gentiles"). I don't see anything on his website that explicitly identifies von Brumm himself as a Christian, but he does post a letter that says "It is my conviction that James von Brunn deserves the gratitude and assistance of every White Christian citizen of these United States."
I'm not disputing you, just asking for a source.
PETA members believe in a philosophy that extends certain basic rights to animals. That is entirely reasonable. The problem with PETA is that they have incredibly stupid marketing for this philosophy that annoys a lot of people.
White supremacists believe that the white race is biologically superior to all other races. This is fucking nonsense. I'm not in a position to comment on their marketing. But it is disengenuous to compare annoying animal rights proponents with people who believe the melanin count of your skin is a meaningful measure of inherent cultural superiority.
I'm not directly equating PeTA with bigots. For the purposes of Evander's black and white approach to extremism that's being discussed, though, they are comprable.
I appologize for any angst this may have caused.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Exactly the same legally.
Not exactly the same morally.
The goalposts, they are a-moving.
How about Pat Buchannan?
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I haven't found any evidence of this either. Anyone have a source for this?
Wha . . . hahahahaha
So, this is the second shooting where the gunman was afraid Obama was going to take his guns. Good thing no one in the media is perpetuating that notion.
Hate the sin, not the, uh... wait... umm...
Hmm...
Hmm...
Not sure how to get this to work. Hate the sin, and the sinner, but don't shoot anybody over it?
do you recall where you read this? Everything I read said he hated Jews, Blacks, and the gov'ment...
Ironically, he seemed to be obsessed with the Holy Roman Empire, but then I wouldn't expect someone crazy enough to shoot up a holocaust museum to be rational enough to man up to their own cognitive dissonance.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
source
He was a very specific kind of nut.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/06/james-von-brunn-christianity-and-the-holocaust.php?page=1
Another totally not-at-all-even-slightly-right-wing quote via TPM:
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
He essentially claimed modern Christianity is horribly pro-Jew and therefore bad.
Optimus Zed has the sources.
I see all the nuance.
I'm dropping it to help you all understand what is missing when you try to blame Von Brunn on the GOP, ignoring all of the nuance in THAT relationship (or lack thereof)
Because when I try to approach any of you directly about that topic, you just clam up
That jibes with his anti-neo con thing, which jibes with his anti-government thing. I don't think any of that necessarily makes him anti-christian.
the weird, weird mind of von Brunn -
(vaguely right-wing) evil federal government, fiat currency, federal reserve, omg mah guns, obama panic,
(vaguely left-wing) evil (israel-supporting?) neocons, bush panic
(batshit insane) jews jews jews jews JEWS jews
oh and christianity caused the downfall of the roman empire and thereby ruined the aryan race. Or... something.
I'm not moving any goalposts.
I asked for examples of preaching violence towards Jews. You may be shocked to learn this, but not every anti-Jew statement is the same.
The type of stuff on Glenn Beck or spewing forth from Coulter is more along the lines of Martin Luther's take on the Jews, which was that he ONLY disliked them because they were a non-Christian group (who refused to convert). It was not against the Jews for anything inherent to them,selves.
In order to incite violence against a group, you need more than just "they should convert". Especially when the man in question (Von Brun) who this thread has ALWAYS been about, is anti-Christian.
As for Buchanon, yes, he's a cockmunch. What has he been saying to incite violence within the past few months, or even anything violence specific within the past few years, though (which is the period of time being discussed)? The link you gave me is a ten year old adaptation of a 15 year old essay.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Read the crazy doc I linked just a few posts ago. Describing him primarily as anti-Christian is inaccurate, but the guy had no affection for the church.