[BSG] Blood & Chrome is here and will frak your shit backwards in time

Unknown

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Kanamit

Man, "Dirty Hands" is such a flawed episode. Yeah, like Adama was about to go and start executing strikers. What a ridiculous bluff.

And what is with the ideological fluidity of some of the characters? Zarek went from a revolutionary to being sort of a reactionary, Gaius is out of nowhere a champion of the working people, and Rosslin often changes her political views over the course of an episode.

PantsB

ShadowBlade wrote: »

I just finished watching this series about 2 weeks ago for the first time. Since I am a long time lurker and less than occasional poster, I will ask before I post.

Can we discuss what Kara was or has this been done to death because the series ended a while ago now? I ask because I have a theory.

The finale overall has been done to death and there is much nerdrage and counter nerd rage. Your theory is wrong however. Or right. Apparently you decide.

"URL="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/03/20/battlestar-galactica-watched-the-finale-still-got-questions-weve-got-answers/"]Ronald D Moore[/URL: Kara is what you want her to be. It’s easy to put the label on her of “angel” or “messenger of God” or something like that. Kara Thrace died and was resurrected and came back and took the people to their final end. That was her role, her destiny in the show… We debated back and forth in the writers’ room about giving it more clarity and saying definitively what she is. We decided that the more you try to put a name on it, the less interesting it became, and we just decided this was the most interesting way for her to go out, with her just disappearing and [leave people wondering exactly what she was]."

And if it involved Daniel being her father we thought so too but

Ron Moore: Daniel is definitely a rabbit hole. It was an unintentional rabbit hole, to be honest. I was kind of surprised when I started picking up [that] speculation online.

For those of you who don’t know, there was a deep part of the cylon backstory that had to do with one of the cylons that was created by the final five [called Daniel. Daniel] was later sort of aborted by Cavill… it was always intended just to be sort of an interesting bit of backstory about Cavill and his jealously. A Cain and Abel sort of allegory. Then people really started grabbing on to it and seizing on it as some major part of the mythology. In couple of interviews and in the last podcast I tried to go out of my way to say “look, don’t spend too much time and energy on this particular theory,” because it was never intended to be that major a piece of the mythology.

ed

Kanamit wrote: »

And what is with the ideological fluidity of some of the characters?

No idea. Apollo is a major example too.

RedTide

Kanamit wrote: »

And what is with the ideological fluidity of some of the characters? Zarek went from a revolutionary to being sort of a reactionary

Kanamit wrote: »

Zarek went from a revolutionary to being sort of a reactionary

New Caprica seemed to temper him for awhile, but they say that no one really changes.

Kanamit wrote: »

Gaius is out of nowhere a champion of the working people

Because that is his present vehicle to adulation and power. The dude acts in a default selfish manner without fail unless the voice in his head tells him to do otherwise. His actions are pretty predictable, but the writing I thought always kept him a great character.

Kanamit wrote: »

Rosslin often changes her political views over the course of an episode.

Where they seemed to be going early on was that she had to go from being the soft idealist to the pragmatist who had to make life and death decisions daily. Then they gave her a divine imperative and kind of set her morality to "I'll crack the skulls of any dissenters until someone rational comes along and offers both sides a way out". The episode with the workers strike and the role that the chief plays in it all is a good example of this.

Kipling217

I have to say having watched the plan, I think they shot their load to early in the film.

The destruction of the colonies was the high point of the film and could in fact have been a bit longer. It sorta went downhill from there, no real climax in the movie.

Some thought

The Simon with a wife and kid could have been explored further and in my opinion made the heart of the movie.

What happend to black haired six?

The actress playing the Simons wife is Olmos wife in real life. Kudos on Olmos on shooting his own wife in a nude scene. Also love the callback to the pilot where she was one of the people saved by Boomer. Could have made more of that.

Asiriya

I don't want to provoke an arguement here, but does anyone else think that having Kara be the messenger from god ruined what otherwise could have been quite interesting. I just hate that she died, came back, did exactly what she was meant to and then just disappeared, its lazy writing in my opinion and makes we wonder what the point in killing her actually was.
Think about it; if she had died, and come back, and her job was to subtly influence someone else, Baltar etc, would that not have been more interesting? Again, she doesn't know what she's doing, but her actions eventually lead to some other person realising something. We get a shot of her face, puzzled, and then she's gone, or not even that, she just remains, rather than disappearing.
I really wish season 4 had been more coherent. I wish with the increase in faith, thing had happened that would directly give influence to the fact that there was more to events; I know there was a lot of ooh, lets just let the basestar jump until it finds the Hub, but I wished there had been a point to the rebellion for instance. S4 just fell below the par for me, and I blame the introduction of God really. I think they could have done something really interesting, they just didn't.
Not wanting to provoke conflict though.

unitedshoes86

No I do not think it was in conflict with the general philosophy that had already preceded in the show. I think that the correlation of god(s) in season four was nothing as it had been heavily emphasized in previous seasons. Also I am not sure that it necessarily supposed to be god(s). I think there was a lot left open for personal interpretation, was it god, gods, were those beings just superior with an end justifies the means rational. Overall I do not think this series, or season, represented an all powerful omnipotent god. In fact much of the dialogue points more to a flawed god than anything else.
For example at the very end, when they show our society, the two "beings" discussed it from a non-all knowing view. But yet they hinted at a superior being. So I really think there is a lot of room for interpretation.
And I think to say an introduction of god, although it did exist b4 s4, made the season sub par is silly as no defined stance was ever taken on the issue. perhaps you could argue that it was a little convoluted so I'll give you that. Still I was very satisfied with the ending.

Athenor

God I loved The Plan. Would say more, but I'm still processing it. Oh, sure, we knew most of it already, but damn if Dean Stockwell isn't awesome. And mad props to Simon!

Also, I know they want to do more movies in the BSG world.. so there is just one last, big thing left for BSG (and maybe Caprica if they want to do it): Starbuck. Holy Shit did The Plan throw more mystery onto that pile. It's coming.. It has to be.

Richy

"He loves her. Vigorously."
"She's beneath him."
"Not necessarily."

hehehe

Athenor

Richy wrote: »

"He loves her. Vigorously."
"She's beneath him."
"Not necessarily."

hehehe

I never saw much of Buffy past season 1 (due to time mainly, I own through season 4 and I wanna find the slim cardboard cases for the later seasons so everything matches), but I have a feeling that is classic Espenson. if that is the case, then I am looking forward to Caprica more, as that show is gonna need a HELL of a lot of comedic relief like that, given the specter of Zoe and the wars.

theSquid

I was a little unclear on what exactly was the difference between the lives of the two Cavils in The Plan that lead to

One realising the war was a mistake, and the other if anything becoming so much more contemptuous of humanity that he stabbed a child that offered him an apple.

Unknown

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Atomika

theSquid wrote: »

I was a little unclear on what exactly was the difference between the lives of the two Cavils in The Plan that lead to

One realising the war was a mistake, and the other if anything becoming so much more contemptuous of humanity that he stabbed a child that offered him an apple.

Well, Caprica Cavil was working alongside humans and saw their reactions to death and love at much closer range, while Galactica Cavil sat in his chapel all day and refused to be around them. The latter Cavil was much more like the Cavil we came to know from S3-onward, who stayed as far away from humanity as possible, likely not to chance being tainted by them.

Caprica Cavil came to see that there was a very strong chance that humans were resourceful enough to end the Cylons, and that killing them made the surviving humans fight that much harder and tougher. Basically, he figured out the connection between love and death, whereas Galactica Cavil couldn't even contemplate the meaning of love.

And you got why Galactica Cavil stabbed the kid, right? The kid's name was John, and I think anything that forced Cavil into admitting any kind of kinship with humans drove him to incalculable rage.

TeaSpoon

Christian symbolism, obviously.

Galactica Cavil refused the serpent. Stabbed him, actually. Caprica Cavil smeared delicious apple sin all over his aging body.

Richy

Atomic Ross wrote: »

theSquid wrote: »

I was a little unclear on what exactly was the difference between the lives of the two Cavils in The Plan that lead to

One realising the war was a mistake, and the other if anything becoming so much more contemptuous of humanity that he stabbed a child that offered him an apple.

Well, Caprica Cavil was working alongside humans and saw their reactions to death and love at much closer range, while Galactica Cavil sat in his chapel all day and refused to be around them. The latter Cavil was much more like the Cavil we came to know from S3-onward, who stayed as far away from humanity as possible, likely not to chance being tainted by them.

Caprica Cavil came to see that there was a very strong chance that humans were resourceful enough to end the Cylons, and that killing them made the surviving humans fight that much harder and tougher. Basically, he figured out the connection between love and death, whereas Galactica Cavil couldn't even contemplate the meaning of love.

And you got why Galactica Cavil stabbed the kid, right? The kid's name was John, and I think anything that forced Cavil into admitting any kind of kinship with humans drove him to incalculable rage.

Yes.

I think the turning point for Caprica Cavil was the discussion with Sam where Cavil asked if he still loved him human teammates now that they're dead, and Sam got upset and said "of course I do, what the fuck is wrong with you?!" That's when Caprica Cavil realized that killing off humanity to show to the Five how much better Cylons are was a mistake, as death does not change how humans feel about each other.

Remember, too, that Cavil is the one who killed Daniel, model #7, then went on about his life happily. No one wondered what happened to Daniel, or remembered him lovingly (or at all). So he figured that if he could kill humanity, the Five would react the same way, forget about them like the other Cylons forgot about Daniel. Instead, he realized in that discussion that humans do not forget about their dead, they keep on loving them just as much as they did when they were alive.

I just realized, this also connects to Sam and how upset he was, after the raid where they blew up the Cylon container. Remember, some of his teammates died in the raid, and he wanted to pick up the bodies but they had to flee instead because the Raiders were coming down on them. Sam was upset because "even Cylons pick up their dead." Yes, they do, they pick them up, put them in a container and forget about them, just like they pick up dead human bodies, put them in a big pile and leave them to rot. For Cylons, the dead are objects lying around, to be picked up and disposed of appropriately. Humans remember and love the memory of their dead, regardless of what happens to the body.

Kipling217

So just got S4 box set today, I now have to complete collection.

Got to say, people might not like the ending, but no one can deny that BSG was one hell of a ride.

Still one of the best shows this decade, if not the top show. Its at least in the top 10. Talking shows in general here, not just sci-fi. If we talk sci-fi its the number one.

Atomika

Richy wrote: »

I think the turning point for Caprica Cavil was the discussion with Sam where Cavil asked if he still loved him human teammates now that they're dead, and Sam got upset and said "of course I do, what the fuck is wrong with you?!" That's when Caprica Cavil realized that killing off humanity to show to the Five how much better Cylons are was a mistake, as death does not change how humans feel about each other.

Remember, too, that Cavil is the one who killed Daniel, model #7, then went on about his life happily. No one wondered what happened to Daniel, or remembered him lovingly (or at all). So he figured that if he could kill humanity, the Five would react the same way, forget about them like the other Cylons forgot about Daniel. Instead, he realized in that discussion that humans do not forget about their dead, they keep on loving them just as much as they did when they were alive.

I just realized, this also connects to Sam and how upset he was, after the raid where they blew up the Cylon container. Remember, some of his teammates died in the raid, and he wanted to pick up the bodies but they had to flee instead because the Raiders were coming down on them. Sam was upset because "even Cylons pick up their dead." Yes, they do, they pick them up, put them in a container and forget about them, just like they pick up dead human bodies, put them in a big pile and leave them to rot. For Cylons, the dead are objects lying around, to be picked up and disposed of appropriately. Humans remember and love the memory of their dead, regardless of what happens to the body.

Yeah, the really strange and interesting thing about Cavil is that the dude genuinely just wanted to be a Robot, and was super pissed that his biology would only let him get agonizingly close to being one. Caprica-Cavil proved that he could be just as human as Simon or Caprica or Gina or Sharon was, so it wasn't a flaw within the model as much as it was (ironically) a very human expression of jealousy and denial.

Oddly enough, as they are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but I feel that Cavil had the most in common with Leoben. While one saw them in a malicious light and the other in a benevolent light (eventually), neither saw them as truly sentient lifeforms, ends to means. Different ends of course, but Leoben's dreams for humanity were no more or less perverse than Cavil's desire to wipe them out.

Kipling217

Funniest line: His jacket was burgundy, this is teal.

Asiriya

Asiriya wrote: »

I don't want to provoke an arguement here, but does anyone else think that having Kara be the messenger from god ruined what otherwise could have been quite interesting. I just hate that she died, came back, did exactly what she was meant to and then just disappeared, its lazy writing in my opinion and makes we wonder what the point in killing her actually was.
Think about it; if she had died, and come back, and her job was to subtly influence someone else, Baltar etc, would that not have been more interesting? Again, she doesn't know what she's doing, but her actions eventually lead to some other person realising something. We get a shot of her face, puzzled, and then she's gone, or not even that, she just remains, rather than disappearing.
I really wish season 4 had been more coherent. I wish with the increase in faith, thing had happened that would directly give influence to the fact that there was more to events; I know there was a lot of ooh, lets just let the basestar jump until it finds the Hub, but I wished there had been a point to the rebellion for instance. S4 just fell below the par for me, and I blame the introduction of God really. I think they could have done something really interesting, they just didn't.
Not wanting to provoke conflict though.

unitedshoes86 wrote: »

No I do not think it was in conflict with the general philosophy that had already preceded in the show. I think that the correlation of god(s) in season four was nothing as it had been heavily emphasized in previous seasons. Also I am not sure that it necessarily supposed to be god(s). I think there was a lot left open for personal interpretation, was it god, gods, were those beings just superior with an end justifies the means rational. Overall I do not think this series, or season, represented an all powerful omnipotent god. In fact much of the dialogue points more to a flawed god than anything else.
For example at the very end, when they show our society, the two "beings" discussed it from a non-all knowing view. But yet they hinted at a superior being. So I really think there is a lot of room for interpretation.
And I think to say an introduction of god, although it did exist b4 s4, made the season sub par is silly as no defined stance was ever taken on the issue. perhaps you could argue that it was a little convoluted so I'll give you that. Still I was very satisfied with the ending.

Perhaps season 4 is something I need to watch again to really appreciate. I've only seen it once, as it aired, and that might be why I didn't much like the season.
It was not the introduction of God (greater beings, whatever) that I disliked, but the way it was written. For instance, the highlight of season 1 for me was most definately the interactions between Baltar and Head 6. Going into the later seasons I really disliked the move away from Baltar, when at one point he had seemed like the main character. I was happy to accept that something supernatural might be happening there.
What I didn't like about S4 was how God suddenly became this tangible thing when SB came back. Now, whatever she was, she was brought back, and in doing so she, herself, lead everyone to a new Earth. Too much divine intervention for me, or at least, it was too easy, there should have been something more to it. I loved the piano episode, but I wish it could have been changed to have SB make someone else remember.
Basically, the fact that she could be perceived as this angel just destroys it all for me. Even if she had gone "What?" just before she disappeared or something.
Perhaps it was the anticlimax of the battle, in which no one major died apart from Cavil, and then the 20 minutes of wandering around on the planet. Wish it had been a brutal end I suppose...

Atomika

The thing about season four for me is that I like it because first, it's organic, and second, it's all killer/no filler.

There are things that happen in season four that I didn't like and that I wouldn't have done if I were in charge, but I always felt that they were holistic and in line with the series, i.e., organic. Nothing felt false or arbitrary.

Also, there were no throw-away, one-off episodes like Black Market or Woman King. Every minute was important TV.

hottoq

Atomic Ross wrote: »

The thing about season four for me is that I like it because first, it's organic, and second, it's all killer/no filler.
...
Every minute was important TV.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

CptHamilton

Leaving aside any opinions of the rest of the series beyond saying that I really liked it, I was disappointed with The Plan.

I don't really know what I was expecting, but I was left feeling deeply unsatisfied. The Caprica Cavil story was interesting, but it didn't really drive the movie very well. Had it been included in the actual series I would have appreciated it much more.

In fact, I think that was my problem with the whole movie. I didn't feel like I was watching a new story, or even a new take an old story, so much as I was watching the 'deleted scenes' reel on a DVD of a movie I already liked. It was neat seeing little bits and pieces that fill out the timeline and some characters' motivations, but none of it was necessary to telling the story that was already told by the show and there wasn't really a new story to carry it.

jhunter46

Just started watching Season 1, starting with the Miniseries. I really wish I would have checked this out sooner.

Also, Cally is adorable.

desperaterobots

Season four ultimately failed for me for a number of reasons.

Spoiler heavy and long:

Much of the first half of the season felt tensionless and floundering, for a start. Once Tigh, Anders, Tyrol and Tory were revealed as cylons in the 3rd season finale I felt the ass completely fall out of the show. It went from exciting survival human drama to soap-opera sci-fi in an instant. I mean, turning four characters on a dime like that is the very definition of 'arbitrary', and it felt utterly false to me.

Despite the snappy Watchtower song, the final four might as well have all said "DUDE I HAVE AMNESIA!" because that's fundamentally what happened. It was a creative execution of a really unimaginative narrative turn. We had none of the wonderful confusion, introspection and self-doubt we got with Sharon in the first season - one of my favourite elements of Season 1.

Let's compare:
Baltar lying about Sharon's cylon detector test result?
Lee turning on Tigh to defend the President?
Sharon shooting Adama?
Cain launching her vipers?
Baltar surrendering?
Tigh killing Ellen?

Organic. Within the bounds of character and plot, and all of it wonderful and surprising and beautiful and awful.

Starbucks resurrection? Hey, we're cylons now? You thought I was hated by the fleet - nope I'm now a religious leader for some reason?

None of it rang true to me.

The first half of Season 4 focused on the least interesting element in the show for me: the final cylons. I mean, paranoia about Starbuck fueled tension in the Quorom. Callie discovering Tyrol's true nature lead to her death! But why the fuck do I want to sit through this shit, when I know Starbuck isnt a cylon, and that Tyrol etc are? The drama is in the exposure of the secret, not in the keeping. Urgh.

And Season 4's first half felt almost devoid of the shows best moments: people dealing with living on the brink and fucking it up, with human flaws in a situation that had no tolerance for them. Tigh losing the fleet. Adama forgiving betrayal. Starbuck stomping on Lee's heart, again and again and again. Baltar's ego. Roslyn's illness. They all struggled with their own problems in the framework of this horrible situation that none of them could ever escape. It was amazing!

Season 4 seemed to forget about all that. Instead it set up these elements that could have gone in really interesting directions but never really went anywhere. Baltar forms a cult, a fucking armed cult. Pointless. Lee talking to the Lawyer for an entire episode about who the President should be when, jesus fucking christ, it was bleedingly obvious to all of us he'd wind up in the big chair. But then Roslyn comes back and, hey, pointless again. Starbuck in the Demetrius to find Earth, but she finds a baseship instead.

There was this awful stop-start-stop-start thing happening in Season.

And how do we find out the actual direction to Earth? From a miracle viper radar.

And where the fuck did that viper come from anyway? I don't mean to nitpick, but for a show that dealt so realistically with people and technology within the confines of it's genre, resurrections, miracle machines and vision quests felt completely contrary to what made the show an awesome drama first, and "sci-fi" second. And that was Season Four's problem. It relied too heavily on these mythical occurences/characters to move the plot along.

Roslyn's first/second season 'visions' of Kobol worked so well because we, the audience, weren't sure of it's reality, of how much was simple drug delusion or actual realisation of prophecy. Baltar's visions of the Opera House existed in a weird space between death and life after a Raptor crash too. Anything mystical had a tie to the in-universe history/religion, or was otherwise intriguing (like Head Six's origins).

Starbuck's resurrection had none of that. Her resurrection meant she'd been effectively touched by the divine - no matter how confused she might be, lo, all her nonsense is crucially important. I was not thrilled to watch any of Starbuck's discovery -- the results were sign-posted from the moment she returned.

But most importantly, it felt like the entire first half of the season was just a giant fucking jerk-around for the (amazing but) crushing dissapointment of Earth not actually being Earth. All of Starbucks searching, all of the 'Final Five Will Lead Us To The Promised Land' bullshit was really all for nothing. It was all wasted. Don't get me wrong, I loved that, and the show finally started moving in a great direction after that -- the season 4.5 opener is one of my favourite episodes of the whole show.

But I don't know if it was worth the first half of their last season being shitty.

Uh, in summary: It took 11 episodes of boring, meandering bullshit for Season 4 to get any good, and that's a big shame. Sorry about the long post - that's been percolating for a while and it's good to get it out. 8-)

hottoq

Agreed, but 2nd half of season 4 also sucked

Athenor

Richy wrote: »

Atomic Ross wrote: »

theSquid wrote: »

I was a little unclear on what exactly was the difference between the lives of the two Cavils in The Plan that lead to

One realising the war was a mistake, and the other if anything becoming so much more contemptuous of humanity that he stabbed a child that offered him an apple.

Well, Caprica Cavil was working alongside humans and saw their reactions to death and love at much closer range, while Galactica Cavil sat in his chapel all day and refused to be around them. The latter Cavil was much more like the Cavil we came to know from S3-onward, who stayed as far away from humanity as possible, likely not to chance being tainted by them.

Caprica Cavil came to see that there was a very strong chance that humans were resourceful enough to end the Cylons, and that killing them made the surviving humans fight that much harder and tougher. Basically, he figured out the connection between love and death, whereas Galactica Cavil couldn't even contemplate the meaning of love.

And you got why Galactica Cavil stabbed the kid, right? The kid's name was John, and I think anything that forced Cavil into admitting any kind of kinship with humans drove him to incalculable rage.

Yes.

I think the turning point for Caprica Cavil was the discussion with Sam where Cavil asked if he still loved him human teammates now that they're dead, and Sam got upset and said "of course I do, what the fuck is wrong with you?!" That's when Caprica Cavil realized that killing off humanity to show to the Five how much better Cylons are was a mistake, as death does not change how humans feel about each other.

Remember, too, that Cavil is the one who killed Daniel, model #7, then went on about his life happily. No one wondered what happened to Daniel, or remembered him lovingly (or at all). So he figured that if he could kill humanity, the Five would react the same way, forget about them like the other Cylons forgot about Daniel. Instead, he realized in that discussion that humans do not forget about their dead, they keep on loving them just as much as they did when they were alive.

I just realized, this also connects to Sam and how upset he was, after the raid where they blew up the Cylon container. Remember, some of his teammates died in the raid, and he wanted to pick up the bodies but they had to flee instead because the Raiders were coming down on them. Sam was upset because "even Cylons pick up their dead." Yes, they do, they pick them up, put them in a container and forget about them, just like they pick up dead human bodies, put them in a big pile and leave them to rot. For Cylons, the dead are objects lying around, to be picked up and disposed of appropriately. Humans remember and love the memory of their dead, regardless of what happens to the body.

As an aside, we have no clue what Centurions do with their dead.

WE never saw what was inside the container, or what they did with the container. My guess is that it's another Zoe-ism.

SaraLuna

I just figured that they

were using the parts to build new centurions

Athenor

pablo_price wrote: »

I just figured that they

were using the parts to build new centurions

We can't figure or assume anything with the Centurions.

Keep in mind two things: First, that they have "souls," or something close to that. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but they have probably just as much humanity as a normal human does. This gets demonstrated time and time again on the show.

Second, they have some (or all) of Zoe's personality in them. If the Final Five were the mothers and fathers of the 13 models, then Zoe is the mother of the Centurions and Hybrids. So what we see of her in Caprica will directly inform what the Centurions are like.


God Damn Cavil for lobotomizing them.

jammu

Anyone seen the syfy ad for caprica?

http://wgtclsp.syfy.com/o/48e10f5e9dbb50aa/4af221b16933304a/4af1f5e1c83cb737/f655e4f1/

Looks promising even though video is blocky.

Looks like

James Marsters

is joining the cast.

Bloods End

Richy wrote: »

Atomic Ross wrote: »

theSquid wrote: »

I was a little unclear on what exactly was the difference between the lives of the two Cavils in The Plan that lead to

One realising the war was a mistake, and the other if anything becoming so much more contemptuous of humanity that he stabbed a child that offered him an apple.

Well, Caprica Cavil was working alongside humans and saw their reactions to death and love at much closer range, while Galactica Cavil sat in his chapel all day and refused to be around them. The latter Cavil was much more like the Cavil we came to know from S3-onward, who stayed as far away from humanity as possible, likely not to chance being tainted by them.

Caprica Cavil came to see that there was a very strong chance that humans were resourceful enough to end the Cylons, and that killing them made the surviving humans fight that much harder and tougher. Basically, he figured out the connection between love and death, whereas Galactica Cavil couldn't even contemplate the meaning of love.

And you got why Galactica Cavil stabbed the kid, right? The kid's name was John, and I think anything that forced Cavil into admitting any kind of kinship with humans drove him to incalculable rage.

Yes.

I think the turning point for Caprica Cavil was the discussion with Sam where Cavil asked if he still loved him human teammates now that they're dead, and Sam got upset and said "of course I do, what the fuck is wrong with you?!" That's when Caprica Cavil realized that killing off humanity to show to the Five how much better Cylons are was a mistake, as death does not change how humans feel about each other.

Remember, too, that Cavil is the one who killed Daniel, model #7, then went on about his life happily. No one wondered what happened to Daniel, or remembered him lovingly (or at all). So he figured that if he could kill humanity, the Five would react the same way, forget about them like the other Cylons forgot about Daniel. Instead, he realized in that discussion that humans do not forget about their dead, they keep on loving them just as much as they did when they were alive.

I just realized, this also connects to Sam and how upset he was, after the raid where they blew up the Cylon container. Remember, some of his teammates died in the raid, and he wanted to pick up the bodies but they had to flee instead because the Raiders were coming down on them. Sam was upset because "even Cylons pick up their dead." Yes, they do, they pick them up, put them in a container and forget about them, just like they pick up dead human bodies, put them in a big pile and leave them to rot. For Cylons, the dead are objects lying around, to be picked up and disposed of appropriately. Humans remember and love the memory of their dead, regardless of what happens to the body.

Huh. Thats a pretty great analysis. I already liked the Plan, but now I'm seeing it in a whole new light that makes it better,

mrdobalina

Well, after chipping away at it for two years, I've finished the main series (haven't seen The Plan yet). Netflix has it listed as a "Very Long Wait", so it might be a while before I get to see it.

I have to say that I'm surprised by all the animosity against the finale. I was expecting something bad, but I loved it. To keep on topic though, I think it sets things up nicely for a myriad of different offshoots.

Cyclon War #1, exodus from Earth 1, or even the unearthing (ha!) of artifacts on Earth 2. Maybe after finding Mitochondrial Eve they find the Raptor Adama took at the end. That, combined with craftsmanship beyond the native population of the time could lead to humans making a leap forward in technology that creates the next round of Cylons. Think of it like Skynet finding parts from the first Terminator which enables them to make Skynet.

RocketSauce

hottoq wrote: »

Agreed, but 2nd half of season 4 also sucked

Just in case anyone hasn't seen it

The mutiny episodes and the aftermath were some of the best episodes of the series.

MrMister

RocketSauce wrote: »

hottoq wrote: »

Agreed, but 2nd half of season 4 also sucked

Just in case anyone hasn't seen it

The mutiny episodes and the aftermath were some of the best episodes of the series.

Adama and Tigh's rambo attack makes no sense, and the whole thing gets papered over afterward.

RUNN1NGMAN

Anyone have any idea when Netflix is going to have seasons 1-4 available on blu ray?

Tomanta

I'll revive this thread and bring you a piece of news if everyone promises to continue not discussing the finale.

The pilot for Caprica is now up on Hulu, just in case someone hasn't seen it.

Bloods End

Additionally it's supposed to be the extended pilot. Minus the nudity.

This

CptHamilton wrote: »

Leaving aside any opinions of the rest of the series beyond saying that I really liked it, I was disappointed with The Plan.

I don't really know what I was expecting, but I was left feeling deeply unsatisfied. The Caprica Cavil story was interesting, but it didn't really drive the movie very well. Had it been included in the actual series I would have appreciated it much more.

In fact, I think that was my problem with the whole movie. I didn't feel like I was watching a new story, or even a new take an old story, so much as I was watching the 'deleted scenes' reel on a DVD of a movie I already liked. It was neat seeing little bits and pieces that fill out the timeline and some characters' motivations, but none of it was necessary to telling the story that was already told by the show and there wasn't really a new story to carry it.

Yeah, The Plan was absolutely brutal. It's completely bereft of purpose or merit, and should never have been made let alone watched. "Here's a bunch of clips from the show that you've already seen, and here are a bunch of in-between scenes we made that overexplains those clips.". I mean, it's kind of what I was worried The Plan would be, but I never expected it to be that worthless.

GungHo

It had tits.

Gandalf_the_Crazed

GungHo wrote: »

It had tits.

Whose? I didn't see it.

Cavil?

Tomanta

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

GungHo wrote: »

It had tits.

Whose? I didn't see it.

Cavil?

It had a shower scene. A co-ed shower scene.

Also, a sex scene later on which much less penis.