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    superprokopsuperprokop Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I <3 a disc healer. But, that aside; do you have BoA shoulder and/or chest? That extra experience gain really will help you out tons. Are you doing more dungeons to level or are you questing more? I did half quest, half dungeons on my pally and lock, and it was going pretty fast. I would just sit in LFG while doing quests and wait for that person to post LFM dps <insert name of dungeon here> PST. I jump at it, do the 5 man, get the nice chunk of XP and continue questing. The quests that really help a lot are the dungeon chains. Gundrak has 2-3 quests that are short chains, pay out nice items and XP both.

    superprokop on
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    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yes, I'm fully heirloomed out and try to quest while staying in LFG.

    I think, ultimately, maybe I find a lot of the quests boring? And I really enjoy healing on my priest more than I enjoy killing mans, so maybe that's why I don't enjoy questing that much.

    mynameisguido on
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    EuphoriacEuphoriac Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I have the same problem with my own disc priest.

    I've gone so far as to hand her the money for dual-spec so i can give shadow a try (haven't actually spent the money yet though. My paladin has taken all my time recently).

    Euphoriac on
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    superprokopsuperprokop Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yes, I'm fully heirloomed out and try to quest while staying in LFG.

    I think, ultimately, maybe I find a lot of the quests boring? And I really enjoy healing on my priest more than I enjoy killing mans, so maybe that's why I don't enjoy questing that much.

    I had that issue on my rogue. I found questing to be very boring. I did find that listening to music or even talking on vent with guildies can help pass time and keep your mind away from thinking about quests. Similar to being at work, time flies when you are with someone you can talk to right? Same principle. When I use to solo-powerlevel my toons up, I would have audio-books playing through my headphones. Pay as much attention to the book (make sure its one you KNOW you will enjoy) and you can see yourself finishing up your quests faster. Hitting 2-3 levels (then slowing down due to being closer to level cap) would seem as if its not even a feat any more.

    Just a few tricks I have found out along the way. I do find audio books work best for me now, though. Since I get on at times when my guild isn't too active since I live on the opposite side of the planet. Or you can listen to some good stand up comedy as well. Even watching a movie in the bottom right corner of your game helps. I use VLC player, so I can keep it always on top. Put it in top right (map is moved to bottom left) and it never gets in the way of my questing or bags or such.

    superprokop on
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    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
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    RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Brilliant. As if it wasn't bad enough having max level smacktards running around level 30 zones killing all your quest mobs, now they're killing every single NPC in BB over and over again for the stupid fucking bloodsail achievement. Because levelling in Azeroth was just so much god damn fun in the first place.

    Rami on
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    superprokopsuperprokop Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Rami wrote: »
    Brilliant. As if it wasn't bad enough having max level smacktards running around level 30 zones killing all your quest mobs, now they're killing every single NPC in BB over and over again for the stupid fucking bloodsail achievement. Because levelling in Azeroth was just so much god damn fun in the first place.

    Could always try out Desolace over in Kalimdore. I think quests open up at the same level. Also offers quests (Alliance only) for SM to get a nice weapon for level. Weapon, of course, is useless if you have BoA. But, still nice XP. Just remember, there is more than 1 place to level at any given time in the game.

    superprokop on
    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
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    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
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    SaerisSaeris Borb Enthusiast flapflapflapflapRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I always thought it was a really bad idea to have quest-giving NPCs be the primary target for a reputation grind without giving other players some way to fight back. I mean, on PvP servers there's kind of a half-assed solution of just attacking the people directly, but then you get guards beating on you as well, and you end up losing rep when the Bloodsail grinders kill them. It ought to be possible to attack people who have attacked Booty Bay NPCs without suffering any reprieve from the guards, and attacking a neutral faction really ought to flag you for PvP too.

    Saeris on
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    rizriz Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Explosive Decoy = Creative and amusing.

    Normally I would say that hanging around a city killing lowbies is indeed the definition of asshole griefer who needs to go shower or something. Reminds me of when totems were bugged and would kill nearby lowbies if a shaman dropped them, say, near the mailbox in Orgrimmar and then logged out immediately, killing all the lowbies and bank alts nearby. Killing people in their own city who can defend themselves is another story. However, doing it through explosive decoys sounds pretty hilarious, because they do indeed have to actually hit the decoy themselves...


    Edit: Re: Booty Bay, the problem is that the people doing Bloodsail rep are usually level 80s, so your level 30 ass isn't doing much to stop them, despite there being "a PVP solution to this problem." And maybe if you're the alt of someone in a big guild you could organize a counterattack, but if you're just a random person or two leveling on a server, you're pretty much helpless until those 80s get bored.

    riz on
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    superprokopsuperprokop Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    "Why does this cute little level 1 critter brown rabbit have a red name? Only 8 hit points, must be a glitch. Lets kill it" Hits "WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED?!"

    superprokop on
    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPI0C]
    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    How do mobs and npcs get the decoy to explode? I know how players do

    Brainleech on
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    SaerisSaeris Borb Enthusiast flapflapflapflapRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    riz wrote: »
    Explosive Decoy = Creative and amusing.

    Normally I would say that hanging around a city killing lowbies is indeed the definition of asshole griefer who needs to go shower or something. Reminds me of when totems were bugged and would kill nearby lowbies if a shaman dropped them, say, near the mailbox in Orgrimmar and then logged out immediately, killing all the lowbies and bank alts nearby. Killing people in their own city who can defend themselves is another story. However, doing it through explosive decoys sounds pretty hilarious, because they do indeed have to actually hit the decoy themselves...

    I go to the capital cities looking for 2v1 or 1v1 fights with other 80s. Since most people aren't PvP flagged in their own territory, this gives them time to stand there and stare at me for a while before we fight. This lets me ensure that they're ready, which is what I'm really looking for in a fight.

    But even if there was some other gathering place where I could pick such fights (and there really isn't, since everywhere else either has too many people or none at all), I think I'd still prefer the capitals, because there are just so many interesting places to fight and run and hide. As a matter of fact, it's really just the Alliance capitals specifically; you don't see as many of those places in the Horde cities, since they're more open. Stormwind's Mage Quarter alone has more nifty locations than all of Orgrimmar.

    riz wrote:
    Edit: Re: Booty Bay, the problem is that the people doing Bloodsail rep are usually level 80s, so your level 30 ass isn't doing much to stop them, despite there being "a PVP solution to this problem." And maybe if you're the alt of someone in a big guild you could organize a counterattack, but if you're just a random person or two leveling on a server, you're pretty much helpless until those 80s get bored.

    Yeah, I was speaking from the perspective of the 80s who come to the aid of the appropriately-leveled people who are just trying to quest. Maybe if there were goblin harvester suits sitting around the docks that did massive damage to players and didn't aggro the guards, but were only pilotable by people friendly or higher with Booty Bay, that would deter the griefers.

    Saeris on
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    BlueDestinyBlueDestiny Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    On my server nobody ever kills the questgivers in BB. Unless Alliance use different ones I guess.

    BlueDestiny on
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    SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Saeris wrote: »
    I always thought it was a really bad idea to have quest-giving NPCs be the primary target for a reputation grind without giving other players some way to fight back. I mean, on PvP servers there's kind of a half-assed solution of just attacking the people directly, but then you get guards beating on you as well, and you end up losing rep when the Bloodsail grinders kill them. It ought to be possible to attack people who have attacked Booty Bay NPCs without suffering any reprieve from the guards, and attacking a neutral faction really ought to flag you for PvP too.

    When working towards Honored with Bloodsail I tried my hardest to avoid killing the quest NPCs. I did kill a few of them occasionally but more often then not I stuck to killing guards. Occasionally I got lucky and the guards would respawn instantly in some locations. After doing it once though I don't see myself doing that grind ever again.

    Seg on
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    rizriz Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Saeris wrote: »
    Maybe if there were goblin harvester suits sitting around the docks that did massive damage to players and didn't aggro the guards, but were only pilotable by people friendly or higher with Booty Bay, that would deter the griefers.

    Haha, that would be AWESOME.

    riz on
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    28682868 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Does the P in PvE stand for pussy? You guys have no idea what griefing is.

    On PvP servers if anything happens for longer than 10 minutes the entire wrath of the horde (or Alliance natch) falls upon the perpetrators. It's well understood and part of the fun. Superpropkop's actions are harmless compared to my raid stopping actions back in vanilla. Hint, BRS+mind control+lava=. I'd only get away with it for about 10 minutes, but they were glorious minutes. Oh so hilariously glorious.

    And Saeris's stories are awesome. But I thought that the minute you healed someone who was flagged you'd flag. Stupid flagging mechanics. Murder is the only way.

    2868 on
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    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Rami wrote: »
    Brilliant. As if it wasn't bad enough having max level smacktards running around level 30 zones killing all your quest mobs, now they're killing every single NPC in BB over and over again for the stupid fucking bloodsail achievement. Because levelling in Azeroth was just so much god damn fun in the first place.
    So this is common?
    Ugh, it's annoying as fuck because it's always a fucking Death Knight going for their loremaster achievement. So of course I figure "Oh, Troll Death Knight. I'm a Blood Elf Rogue/Orc Warrior. Clearly they'll show courtesy to a fellow hordey!"
    Nope.
    It's like the grief me harder.
    Like waiting for my rogue to set up for Cheap Shot, then Death Gripping it away from me. Or Icy Touching whatever my Warrior is about to charge.

    I actually whispered one who was griefing me.
    "You know I can actually talk to you, right? It's not like I'm forced to /spit and /sigh."
    "lol"
    "Can you please find another spot to grind Loremaster?"
    "ASSHOLE is ignoring you."
    Does the P in PvE stand for pussy? You guys have no idea what griefing is.

    On PvP servers if anything happens for longer than 10 minutes the entire wrath of the horde (or Alliance natch) falls upon the perpetrators. It's well understood and part of the fun. Superpropkop's actions are harmless compared to my raid stopping actions back in vanilla. Hint, BRS+mind control+lava=. I'd only get away with it for about 10 minutes, but they were glorious minutes. Oh so hilariously glorious.

    And Saeris's stories are awesome. But I thought that the minute you healed someone who was flagged you'd flag. Stupid flagging mechanics. Murder is the only way.
    LOL CAREBEAR SCRUBS M I RITE?
    emot-jerkbag.gif

    The Muffin Man on
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    BlueDestinyBlueDestiny Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Rami wrote: »
    Brilliant. As if it wasn't bad enough having max level smacktards running around level 30 zones killing all your quest mobs, now they're killing every single NPC in BB over and over again for the stupid fucking bloodsail achievement. Because levelling in Azeroth was just so much god damn fun in the first place.
    So this is common?
    Ugh, it's annoying as fuck because it's always a fucking Death Knight going for their loremaster achievement. So of course I figure "Oh, Troll Death Knight. I'm a Blood Elf Rogue/Orc Warrior. Clearly they'll show courtesy to a fellow hordey!"
    Nope.
    It's like the grief me harder.
    Like waiting for my rogue to set up for Cheap Shot, then Death Gripping it away from me. Or Icy Touching whatever my Warrior is about to charge.

    I actually whispered one who was griefing me.
    "You know I can actually talk to you, right? It's not like I'm forced to /spit and /sigh."
    "lol"
    "Can you please find another spot to grind Loremaster?"
    "ASSHOLE is ignoring you."

    These days you could have an Alliance alt specifically to kill them. I'm definitely considering it myself.

    BlueDestiny on
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    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Rami wrote: »
    Brilliant. As if it wasn't bad enough having max level smacktards running around level 30 zones killing all your quest mobs, now they're killing every single NPC in BB over and over again for the stupid fucking bloodsail achievement. Because levelling in Azeroth was just so much god damn fun in the first place.
    So this is common?
    Ugh, it's annoying as fuck because it's always a fucking Death Knight going for their loremaster achievement. So of course I figure "Oh, Troll Death Knight. I'm a Blood Elf Rogue/Orc Warrior. Clearly they'll show courtesy to a fellow hordey!"
    Nope.
    It's like the grief me harder.
    Like waiting for my rogue to set up for Cheap Shot, then Death Gripping it away from me. Or Icy Touching whatever my Warrior is about to charge.

    I actually whispered one who was griefing me.
    "You know I can actually talk to you, right? It's not like I'm forced to /spit and /sigh."
    "lol"
    "Can you please find another spot to grind Loremaster?"
    "ASSHOLE is ignoring you."

    These days you could have an Alliance alt specifically to kill them. I'm definitely considering it myself.
    I really should. They always have like 16k HP, and whenever they spot a new mob, they sloooooowly turn around.

    The Muffin Man on
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    AddaAdda LondonRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    How will that work out for you on a pve server? :D

    Or does killing npc's flag you?

    Adda on
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    SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I really should. They always have like 16k HP, and whenever they spot a new mob, they sloooooowly turn around.

    It was so strange in Wintergrasp the other day. There was a Horde Mage who did the slow turn around thing. I was so shocked I hardly knew what to do with myself. Normally the only Keyboard turners I run into are Alliance.


    edit: As for the Bloodsail rep grind, I once had a fellow from my own faction send me a whisper asking me why the guards kept attacking me. I felt so bad when I got the quest to kill Baron Revilgaz and his Tauren friend. I disliked killing the quest NPCs.

    Seg on
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    rizriz Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    2868 wrote: »
    Does the P in PvE stand for pussy? You guys have no idea what griefing is.

    On PvP servers if anything happens for longer than 10 minutes the entire wrath of the horde (or Alliance natch) falls upon the perpetrators. It's well understood and part of the fun. Superpropkop's actions are harmless compared to my raid stopping actions back in vanilla. Hint, BRS+mind control+lava=. I'd only get away with it for about 10 minutes, but they were glorious minutes. Oh so hilariously glorious.

    And Saeris's stories are awesome. But I thought that the minute you healed someone who was flagged you'd flag. Stupid flagging mechanics. Murder is the only way.

    Uh, what? "On PVP servers" indeed. Are you assuming we all play on PVE servers? Just because you're on a PVP server doesn't mean everyone is ready and willing to leap into huge world PVP battles when someone is griefing questers in Booty Bay. I've played on a PVP server for years and getting help or causing escalation of conflict is never guaranteed.

    I do miss Blackrock Mountain PVP though. Battles outside Obsidian Sanctum can remind you of it, but it's not the same as 40-man raids.

    riz on
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    AddaAdda LondonRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Blackrock mountain pvp was excellent. Realm forums and IRC used to be really busy back in those days with the trash talk.

    Adda on
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    Ed321Ed321 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Wow, this thread went to an angry place for a while D:.

    Anyway, I did try doing the vanilla quests for loremaster and ambassador for some time, but it got boring very fast since 90% of the people I played with over summer have been offline since the end of august :( - without people to chat to (about something other than raids and specs) or help out when they're on their alts, there's just no incentive. I skipped Crystalsong and Storm peaks and went straight to Icecrown, but really I don't think I'll have much incentive to start raiding until I hear some solid news concerning Icecrown Citadel.

    Ed321 on
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    LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    First time I went to AQ I wasn't sure if the bones were supposed to be there or if people just died a lot.

    Lorahalo on
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    LouieLouie Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    The best thing about BRM was hiding 39/40 raid members behind the rock and making one of your clothies go and keyboard turn on the chain like some sort of honey trap!

    Louie on
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    Paradox ControlParadox Control Master MC Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I donno man, if you want to talk about griefing lets get to some real griefing stories.

    I'll keep it short though: Me and a Priest friend used to MC people out of WSG when Alliance started turtling up. It was a really great tactic to brake the Turtle, because new players came in and had no idea what was going on.

    Fearing fools off the Zep (or MCing them) just before it hit the wall that made it load.

    When Death Grip and the boat in BB were bugged, I sat there for hours just ripping people off the docks, and watching them fly forever.

    Paradox Control on
    \
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    EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    When Death Grip and the boat in BB were bugged, I sat there for hours just ripping people off the docks, and watching them fly forever.

    Ok, that's griefing, and you're a fucking asshole for doing that.

    There's no defense, and I had to contact a GM to get my character back.

    Edit: It was several hours before I was able to get back on that character.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
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    SenshiSenshi BALLING OUT OF CONTROL WavefrontRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    haha, that sounds hilarious, please elaborate

    Senshi on
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    SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    End wrote: »
    When Death Grip and the boat in BB were bugged, I sat there for hours just ripping people off the docks, and watching them fly forever.

    Ok, that's griefing, and you're a fucking asshole for doing that.

    There's no defense, and I had to contact a GM to get my character back.

    Nah man, it's all good man, it's a PvP server man so anything goes man.


    This isn't something that I actually agree with.

    Seg on
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    rizriz Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'll keep it short though: Me and a Priest friend used to MC people out of WSG when Alliance started turtling up. It was a really great tactic to brake the Turtle, because new players came in and had no idea what was going on.

    This I always thought was funny, even if it can be griefing. Reminds me of the hours we spent tossing knockback snowballs at people AFKing at the cave in AV, to boot them out of the game. Some of them were so persistent in avoiding us, made you wonder why they didn't just participate in the fucking game if they were sitting there paying attention to WoW so closely.

    riz on
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    LarsLars Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Gah, I hadn't seen real AFKer's in a battleground in a while. Not sure if it had become so easy to get honor that they didn't bother anymore or if I'd just been lucky.
    Well yesterday I played an Arathi Basin game with 2 AFKers in it. I was also dismayed to find out that everyone reporting them does not boot them, and merely gives them "Inactive" status and turns their name purple, preventing them from gaining honor. Great Blizzard, but we're still down 2 players and frankly, those asshats don't deserve a chance to get back in the game, so boot them and give them deserter and let people that actually want to play join the game.

    I suppose I should thank them just this once though. Because of our handicap, we only won by ten points. Achievement unlocked.

    Still though, why would anyone AFK in Arathi Basin? AV would get more honor and probably allow them to go unnoticed for longer.

    Lars on
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    BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Senshi wrote: »
    haha, that sounds hilarious, please elaborate


    The actual "home" of the boat between Booty Bay and Ratchet is underneath the planet in Alterac Mountains. Death Knights could death grip people from the boat off the docks and it would send them flying from Booty Bay to Alterac Mountains. It went from funny to bannable when it started being exploited to quickly level up alts from discovery experience (you'd hit almost every subzone in every zone from Stranglethorn to Alterac), and also on PVP servers to get people's characters stuck for hours/days. You arrived on this ghost boat underneath the planet. If you jumped off you'd fall forever and it did something stupid like put you in combat or flag you as permanently moving so you couldn't hearth.

    Bikkstah on
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    MonstyMonsty Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I must have been desensitized by too much UO back in the day. This stuff doesn't sound bad to me at all... well, except End being locked out of his character for hours.

    I demand more tales of mayhem!

    Monsty on
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    BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah, WoW PVP is so laughable with things like graveyards, graveyard rezz, and being in an invulnerable ghost form where you can watch people near your body. I remember EQ PVP where you rezz'd at your bind point, which could be hours away, especially considering all your cash and gear was on your body which was necessary to secure a port or a movement speed buff. You had to run back naked, which made it possible to die to NPCs on the way back, forcing you to start all over. Once back, you were naked and attackable and if your killers were still around, you'd probably just die all over again. No instanced dungeons to zone into when you fail to gank someone either. If you tried to fuck someone's day up and failed and ran inside a dungeon, they just ran in behind you and finished you off.

    Oh, and if you decided to try later, your corpse rotted in a specific number of hours based on your level up to 7? days if you were max level.

    Bikkstah on
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    EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Well, I'll admit I was slightly amused about 5 seconds into my flight. About 10 seconds in I started getting really annoyed, and then at 20 seconds it booted me off of the server.

    After that, I was pretty pissed off. Thankfully a GM fix was in the hours neighborhood instead of days.

    Edit: Some time later I was near the docks again, and a DK of my own faction wanted to duel there. I think I spit on him and ignored him.

    End on
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    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Adda wrote: »
    How will that work out for you on a pve server? :D

    Or does killing npc's flag you?
    Well they aren't too bright so I can't imagine it's too hard to trick them into flagging.

    Hell, some players flag the second an Alliance/Horde player rides by.
    HE WANTS TO FIGHT.
    Dude he's getting on the boat.
    HE'S RAIDING CROSSROADS.
    He's leaving The Barrens.

    The Muffin Man on
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    HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm always flagged. Always. (PVE server)

    Also, I have 5 out of 8 books for Higher Learning now.... Oh yes. I only need the ones from Upper Violet Citadel, Threads of Fate, and the Dalaran Visitors Center.....

    HallowedFaith on
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    28682868 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    riz wrote: »
    2868 wrote: »
    Does the P in PvE stand for pussy? You guys have no idea what griefing is.

    On PvP servers if anything happens for longer than 10 minutes the entire wrath of the horde (or Alliance natch) falls upon the perpetrators. It's well understood and part of the fun. Superpropkop's actions are harmless compared to my raid stopping actions back in vanilla. Hint, BRS+mind control+lava=. I'd only get away with it for about 10 minutes, but they were glorious minutes. Oh so hilariously glorious.

    And Saeris's stories are awesome. But I thought that the minute you healed someone who was flagged you'd flag. Stupid flagging mechanics. Murder is the only way.

    Uh, what? "On PVP servers" indeed. Are you assuming we all play on PVE servers? Just because you're on a PVP server doesn't mean everyone is ready and willing to leap into huge world PVP battles when someone is griefing questers in Booty Bay. I've played on a PVP server for years and getting help or causing escalation of conflict is never guaranteed.

    I do miss Blackrock Mountain PVP though. Battles outside Obsidian Sanctum can remind you of it, but it's not the same as 40-man raids.

    Not talking about booty bay, talking about everyone jumping down Superprop's neck for doing funny things with four rogues.

    2868 on
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    rizriz Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    The rest of my response applies though, in that you seem to think the only people complaining about that sort of stuff play on PVE servers, and that PVP servers are all some magical land of exciting world PVP where the entire Horde will come to the defense of a few people trying to do Vault.

    riz on
  • Options
    Seattle ThreadSeattle Thread Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah, that happens never

    Seattle Thread on
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