And that, my friend, is what we call "hippy logic".
The jackassery of an isolated individual does not constitute a culture.
As you would be able to figure out if you were capable of "hippy logic."
Extrapolate out. You have a bunch of those people, and a culture that encourages their narcissistic behavior (yay narcissism! the american religion!). This is what we have.
The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.
It can, yes. The question is would contemporary society accept that as an excuse.
I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that they would.
Your focus on post-rape reactions is far too narrow, and too late in a very real sense. If the imagery is implicated in some meaningful way in a rape, it doesn't matter how loudly we yell at the perpretrator afterwards. The victim was still raped, and we can't fix that.
So what would your solution then be? Less sexy imagery?
I'm not being snide, I honestly want to know how you feel the issue you mentioned of sexy imagery leading to an individual's justification for rape can be resolved.
And that, my friend, is what we call "hippy logic".
The jackassery of an isolated individual does not constitute a culture.
As you would be able to figure out if you were capable of "hippy logic."
Extrapolate out. You have a bunch of those people, and a culture that encourages their narcissistic behavior (yay narcissism! the american religion!). This is what we have.
Where the fuck is the connection to rape?
That they exist does not constitute a culture.
If they are applying it outside of their lives and using it while on juries to excuse rapists and promoting the media to have vestiges of the same view and encouraging the dehumanizing of women by others then you have a culture.
Let's say, hypothetically, that I objectify women purely for sex. I literally cannot perceive any real value that is specific to women other than their ability to provide sexual satisfaction. Sure, they can run errands or prepare food, but most men (and certain well-trained chimpanzees) can do that too, so these things don't make a female uniquely valuable. In my mind, women are simply sausage wallets to be used for sexual purposes, and should be pacified or ignored to the point of irrelevance in all other situations. Because of this worldview, the only way I can evaluate women is based on their perceived sexual worth, and I rank them accordingly.
Okay, so I have objectified women and lumped them in categories. Now let's say that every time I interact with a woman for sex, it is with a consenting partner. No trickery, no physical assault, no roofies in the drink. Heads up, consentual sex.
How does that create a legitimate connection to rape culture? The answer is: it doesn't. It's misogynistic, it's callous, and it probably hurts some feelings, but it isn't rape culture.
Sure, you can say that people who propogate rape culture also objectify women and categorize them, so the concepts are linked. That's like saying that the people who propogate it like sex, so the concept of liking sex is now linked to rape culture.
And that, my friend, is what we call "hippy logic".
Premise: there is this hypothetical person who thinks a certain way
Premise: he has consensual sex
Conclusion: "it doesn't create a legitimate connection to the rape culture"
Relevance to topic of thread discussion: ??????????
I am not saying that all sex is rape. I am not saying that all men are rapists, or that all men want to rape.
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
Even rapists don't think they committed rape. Violent rapists are extreme examples, but I have talked to "non-violent" rapists, ie date rapists, who argued vehemently that what they did was not rape, and came close to violence against me for proposing that it was (unsurprisingly). Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but 1) it is clear that date rape and similar are epidemic, and 2) I don't think it's a surprise that a rapist rationalizes their raping. It's just important to note that it occurs.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys. It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
And that, my friend, is what we call "hippy logic".
The jackassery of an isolated individual does not constitute a culture.
As you would be able to figure out if you were capable of "hippy logic."
Extrapolate out. You have a bunch of those people, and a culture that encourages their narcissistic behavior (yay narcissism! the american religion!). This is what we have.
Where the fuck is the connection to rape?
Well, since you dragged us into stupid hypothetical land...
Say that we now have a tribe of objectifying robots, like the one you had us imagine. Let's now say that one of them goes ahead and rapes a woman.
Since the other objectifying robots, according to your hypothetical, see no value in women at all, what do you think are the odds that they are going to react with opprobrium toward the rapist?
Essentially, it boils down to the idea that a culture that devalues the dignity of women will not be a culture equipped to find justice for women.
I am not saying that all sex is rape. I am not saying that all men are rapists, or that all men want to rape.
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
Even rapists don't think they committed rape. Violent rapists are extreme examples, but I have talked to "non-violent" rapists, ie date rapists, who argued vehemently that what they did was not rape, and came close to violence against me for proposing that it was (unsurprisingly). Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but 1) it is clear that date rape and similar are epidemic, and 2) I don't think it's a surprise that a rapist rationalizes their raping. It's just important to note that it occurs.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys. It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
A good post
I would probably take exception to this
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys.
The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.
It can, yes. The question is would contemporary society accept that as an excuse.
I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that they would.
Your focus on post-rape reactions is far too narrow, and too late in a very real sense. If the imagery is implicated in some meaningful way in a rape, it doesn't matter how loudly we yell at the perpretrator afterwards. The victim was still raped, and we can't fix that.
So what would your solution then be? Less sexy imagery?
I'm not being snide, I honestly want to know how you feel the issue you mentioned of sexy imagery leading to an individual's justification for rape can be resolved.
I think that open critical analysis of sexual imagery is a good start. If people become aware of the subtle underlying propositional content of the media they consume, they are less likely to be influenced negatively by it.
oh definitely. The remnants of puritanism has given America a totally fucked up sexual culture. Not responsible enough and not accepting enough. It's considered a taboo, and every problem with sex in the American psyche spins off of that guilt and shame that Americans feel about sex.
So what do you expect to do about it? Control the symptoms or attack the cause? Because whenever I hear someone saying "rape culture" it's always to attack something they don't like in entertainment or popular culture, and it's never the root cause.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I am not saying that all sex is rape. I am not saying that all men are rapists, or that all men want to rape.
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
Even rapists don't think they committed rape. Violent rapists are extreme examples, but I have talked to "non-violent" rapists, ie date rapists, who argued vehemently that what they did was not rape, and came close to violence against me for proposing that it was (unsurprisingly). Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but 1) it is clear that date rape and similar are epidemic, and 2) I don't think it's a surprise that a rapist rationalizes their raping. It's just important to note that it occurs.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys. It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
How many of these rapes are by people the victim knew closely e.g. Family members, Clergy, Friends? If you're going to invoke dubious stats at least break down the composition of those stats by several factors.
oh definitely. The remnants of puritanism has given America a totally fucked up sexual culture. Not responsible enough and not accepting enough. It's considered a taboo, and every problem with sex in the American psyche spins off of that guilt and shame that Americans feel about sex.
So what do you expect to do about it? Control the symptoms or attack the cause? Because whenever I hear someone saying "rape culture" it's always to attack something they don't like in entertainment or popular culture, and it's never the root cause.
I was pretty sure before I read this post that you didnt read the thread, now I am really sure
because "something they don't like in entertainment or popular culture" is like 1% of what's been under discussion so far
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
oh definitely. The remnants of puritanism has given America a totally fucked up sexual culture. Not responsible enough and not accepting enough. It's considered a taboo, and every problem with sex in the American psyche spins off of that guilt and shame that Americans feel about sex.
So what do you expect to do about it? Control the symptoms or attack the cause? Because whenever I hear someone saying "rape culture" it's always to attack something they don't like in entertainment or popular culture, and it's never the root cause.
That's a pretty superficial reading of what people are talking about when they talk about rape culture. It has a lot more to do with (mostly) unspoken social norms and the relative power of women and men in society than it does with that scandalous two-piece Paris Hilton is wearing, or whatever.
This isn't a "pop culture" thing. This is an "international culture" thing. This is a fucking "traditional culture" problem.
--
Geckhan: Both. Changing the discourse is a major part of it. People need to recognize the issue, first and foremost. As it is, they just deny it and perpetuate it or at least allow it to perpetuate itself.
I am not saying that all sex is rape. I am not saying that all men are rapists, or that all men want to rape.
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
Even rapists don't think they committed rape. Violent rapists are extreme examples, but I have talked to "non-violent" rapists, ie date rapists, who argued vehemently that what they did was not rape, and came close to violence against me for proposing that it was (unsurprisingly). Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but 1) it is clear that date rape and similar are epidemic, and 2) I don't think it's a surprise that a rapist rationalizes their raping. It's just important to note that it occurs.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys. It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
How many of these rapes are by people the victim knew closely e.g. Family members, Clergy, Friends? If you're going to invoke dubious stats at least break down the composition of those stats by several factors.
I dont get it, is acquaintance rape "not real rape," and that's why the statistic is dubious? but okay, from the shakes post I quoted above (with links):
Rape culture is pervasive narratives about rape that exist despite evidence to the contrary. Rape culture is pervasive imagery of stranger rape, even though women are three times more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger, and nine times more likely to be raped in their home, the home of someone they know, or anywhere else than being raped on the street, making what is commonly referred to as "date rape" by far the most prevalent type of rape.
How the hell did it take 2 hours for someone to call the police when there were tons of people around? What. the. fuck.
I'm no beefcake but I would sure as fuck call the police and try to stop them.
Darkchampion3d on
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
What is the definition of sexual assault used to come up with that 1 in 6 number? There is a continuum of sexual assault, even under legal definitions, that ranges from someone grabbing a breast without permission up to a woman being gang-raped in an alley. The former, while still a crime, is not in the same league with what most of us are probably thinking of when we talk about rape.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys.
It does the opposite- it actively discourages, through education, societal pressure and the criminal justice system, such behavior. To such a point that a little kid can get in trouble for kissing a fellow classmate.
It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
In what way? What aspect of our society in any way fails to discourage rape or implicitly even condones the practice, other than incredibly fringe groups, such as gang members? Rapes are treated very, very seriously by police and prosecutors. And even the accusation of rape, even if false, is incredibly devastating and tends to turn the accused into a social pariah.
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Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys.
It does the opposite- it actively discourages, through education, societal pressure and the criminal justice system, such behavior. To such a point that a little kid can get in trouble for kissing a fellow classmate.
It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
In what way? What aspect of our society in any way fails to discourage rape or implicitly even condones the practice, other than incredibly fringe groups, such as gang members? Rapes are treated very, very seriously by police and prosecutors. And even the accusation of rape, even if false, is incredibly devastating and tends to turn the accused into a social pariah.
I'd also argue that a lot of mainstream porn, particularly demeaning stuff like Bang Bros., treads uncomfortably close to rape. Yes, I recognize that there's a difference between demeaning sex and rape, but once you establish a schema that sex can still be fun even while the woman isn't enjoying it, you've broken down one of the psychological barriers against rape.
So even though rape is explicitly condemned, I'd argue that there are enough mixed messages to warrant discussion of the topic.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I am not saying that all sex is rape. I am not saying that all men are rapists, or that all men want to rape.
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
Even rapists don't think they committed rape. Violent rapists are extreme examples, but I have talked to "non-violent" rapists, ie date rapists, who argued vehemently that what they did was not rape, and came close to violence against me for proposing that it was (unsurprisingly). Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but 1) it is clear that date rape and similar are epidemic, and 2) I don't think it's a surprise that a rapist rationalizes their raping. It's just important to note that it occurs.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys. It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
How many of these rapes are by people the victim knew closely e.g. Family members, Clergy, Friends? If you're going to invoke dubious stats at least break down the composition of those stats by several factors.
All reports I have ever read indicate that the vast majority of sexual violence is committed by people the victim knows well.
I don't get your question. It seems to me that most of our discussion has been more relevant to that type of sexual violence than the infinitely rarer type of sexual violence that is premeditated and carried out by a stranger.
Kistra on
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oh definitely. The remnants of puritanism has given America a totally fucked up sexual culture. Not responsible enough and not accepting enough. It's considered a taboo, and every problem with sex in the American psyche spins off of that guilt and shame that Americans feel about sex.
So what do you expect to do about it? Control the symptoms or attack the cause? Because whenever I hear someone saying "rape culture" it's always to attack something they don't like in entertainment or popular culture, and it's never the root cause.
That's a pretty superficial reading of what people are talking about when they talk about rape culture. It has a lot more to do with (mostly) unspoken social norms and the relative power of women and men in society than it does with that scandalous two-piece Paris Hilton is wearing, or whatever.
I'm aware of the full definition of the word. I was just talking about when I most commonly hear it bandied about.
I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
What is the definition of sexual assault used to come up with that 1 in 6 number? There is a continuum of sexual assault, even under legal definitions, that ranges from someone grabbing a breast without permission up to a woman being gang-raped in an alley. The former, while still a crime, is not in the same league with what most of us are probably thinking of when we talk about rape.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys.
It does the opposite- it actively discourages, through education, societal pressure and the criminal justice system, such behavior. To such a point that a little kid can get in trouble for kissing a fellow classmate.
It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
In what way? What aspect of our society in any way fails to discourage rape or implicitly even condones the practice, other than incredibly fringe groups, such as gang members? Rapes are treated very, very seriously by police and prosecutors. And even the accusation of rape, even if false, is incredibly devastating and tends to turn the accused into a social pariah.
The fact that rape is against the law has no bearing on society's attitudes towards rape fyi. The justice system that you seem to put so much stock in exists within the rape culture, just like everything else!
In what way? What aspect of our society in any way fails to discourage rape or implicitly even condones the practice, other than incredibly fringe groups, such as gang members? Rapes are treated very, very seriously by police and prosecutors. And even the accusation of rape, even if false, is incredibly devastating and tends to turn the accused into a social pariah.
Are you serious with the bold part?
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I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
Okay, go read this post and come back. And you can skip the part where you pick out one or two examples you disagree with and say "HAR HAR HOW RIDICULOUS" because that's already happened a few pages back
I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
Okay, go read this post and come back. And you can skip the part where you pick out one or two examples you disagree with and say "HAR HAR HOW RIDICULOUS" because that's already happened a few pages back
People picked it apart and laughed at it because it was mostly ridiculous bullshit.
I'd also argue that a lot of mainstream porn, particularly demeaning stuff like Bang Bros., treads uncomfortably close to rape. Yes, I recognize that there's a difference between demeaning sex and rape, but once you establish a schema that sex can still be fun even while the woman isn't enjoying it, you've broken down one of the psychological barriers against rape.
So even though rape is explicitly condemned, I'd argue that there are enough mixed messages to warrant discussion of the topic.
[/QUOTE]
Bang Bros does not tread anywhere close to rape. In 90% of their videos the women are all presented as professional porn actresses, who enjoy themselves. The other 10% are of the demeaning bang bus variety. Not my thing, but it's definitely not rape or anything close to rape.
Some guys like sex where women are portrayed as being demeaned. Some guys like sex where guys are portrayed as being demeaned - by either men or women. Some women like sex where guys are portrayed as being demeaned.
I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
Okay, go read this post and come back. And you can skip the part where you pick out one or two examples you disagree with and say "HAR HAR HOW RIDICULOUS" because that's already happened a few pages back
People picked it apart and laughed at it because it was mostly ridiculous bullshit.
Nah mostly it was "But we joke about everything, really rape jokes are just part of the healing process" and then back to not being able to think of any examples of how the rape culture operates
So back in the 1700s Cesare Beccaria in writing Of Crimes and Punishments (I think) said that the most effective deterrent to crime is certainty, not severity, of punishment. That's why known speed traps and red light cameras work. If you know you're probably going to get in trouble, you aren't going to do it.
But most rapists don't get in trouble. If we make the perfectly reasonable assumption that the majority of rapes are not committed by serial rapists, given that 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted then a similar number of men (or women yes women are capable of sexual violence too BUT the vast majority of sexual violence is man-on-woman, so sorry to reveal this uncomfortable fact) are rapists.
But they haven't gotten in trouble for it. So there can be extreme sentences for a few criminals, so that we can say "Oh look we are so serious about rape! 25 years in jail!" and Law & Order: SVU exists and makes it seem like rape is taken seriously and frequently prosecuted but actually it isn't. The severity of punishment is there, but not the certainty.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
I'm aware of the full definition of the word. I was just talking about when I most commonly hear it bandied about.
I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
Did you read the OP?
-Roman Polanski rape apologists (including Whoopi Goldberg)
-Republican Senators who didn't think rape was a big enough reason to stop doing business with Halliburton. Senators! If that isn't evidence of acceptance--or at least insufficient outrage over--rape from the highest echelons of our society than I cannot help you.
-The fact that there were a dozen witnesses to the crime talked about in the OP but nobody responded.
-Atmosphere of shame and fear that prevents rape victims from reporting the crimes against them.
Some guys like sex where women are portrayed as being demeaned. Some guys like sex where guys are portrayed as being demeaned - by either men or women. Some women like sex where guys are portrayed as being demeaned.
Still not seeing a connection to rape.
Really? You don't think that the schema "sex is best if the woman is being treated like a cum dumpster" has any connection to rape?
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
So back in the 1700s Cesare Beccaria in writing Of Crimes and Punishments (I think) said that the most effective deterrent to crime is certainty, not severity, of punishment. That's why known speed traps and red light cameras work. If you know you're probably going to get in trouble, you aren't going to do it.
But most rapists don't get in trouble. If we make the perfectly reasonable assumption that the majority of rapes are not committed by serial rapists, given that 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted then a similar number of men (or women yes women are capable of sexual violence too BUT the vast majority of sexual violence is man-on-woman, so sorry to reveal this uncomfortable fact) are rapists.
But they haven't gotten in trouble for it. So there can be extreme sentences for a few criminals, so that we can say "Oh look we are so serious about rape! 25 years in jail!" and Law & Order: SVU exists and makes it seem like rape is taken seriously and frequently prosecuted but actually it isn't. The severity of punishment is there, but not the certainty.
Bang Bros does not tread anywhere close to rape. In 90% of their videos the women are all presented as professional porn actresses, who enjoy themselves. The other 10% are of the demeaning bang bus variety. Not my thing, but it's definitely not rape or anything close to rape.
[...]
Still not seeing a connection to rape.
The Bang Bus videos send a message that it is okay to hold women captive and pressure them into having sex. That's awfully close to rape.
I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
Okay, go read this post and come back. And you can skip the part where you pick out one or two examples you disagree with and say "HAR HAR HOW RIDICULOUS" because that's already happened a few pages back
dude, shakesville? really?
I obviously can't address the whole thing. I do see a common thread of referencing outliers to backup claims of a societal wide "rape culture" though.
Also, violent sex is good sex. It's a fact.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
Okay, go read this post and come back. And you can skip the part where you pick out one or two examples you disagree with and say "HAR HAR HOW RIDICULOUS" because that's already happened a few pages back
dude, shakesville? really?
I obviously can't address the whole thing. I do see a common thread of referencing outliers to backup claims of a societal wide "rape culture" though.
Also, violent sex is good sex. It's a fact.
Uh. Are you sure this is what you meant to say?
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
Uh, yes. We live in a culture of violence. But most people knew that already.
We also live in a country that serves a delicious flame-broiled Whopper™ from their local Burger King®. So I guess we live in a Burger King® Whopper™/Rape/Murder culture? How do definitions like this possibly help any kind of reasonable argument?
Uh, yes. We live in a culture of violence. But most people knew that already.
We also live in a country that serves a delicious flame-broiled Whopper™ from their local Burger King®. So I guess we live in a Burger King® Whopper™/Rape/Murder culture? How do definitions like this possibly help any kind of reasonable argument?
The fact that rape is against the law has no bearing on society's attitudes towards rape fyi. The justice system that you seem to put so much stock in exists within the rape culture, just like everything else!
So, we have laws making rape a serious felony, with sentences up to life in prison. We have educational and societal pressure that makes rape an incredibly bad thing in the eyes of pretty much anyone. Accusations of rape can ruin a person, even if the accusations end up being untrue.
So, if rape is highly illegal and considered a bad thing by pretty much everyone, how the heck can you say we live in a rape culture?
Hell, when was the last time a rapist was portrayed in a positive light in any context?
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Extrapolate out. You have a bunch of those people, and a culture that encourages their narcissistic behavior (yay narcissism! the american religion!). This is what we have.
Where the fuck is the connection to rape?
So what would your solution then be? Less sexy imagery?
I'm not being snide, I honestly want to know how you feel the issue you mentioned of sexy imagery leading to an individual's justification for rape can be resolved.
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That they exist does not constitute a culture.
If they are applying it outside of their lives and using it while on juries to excuse rapists and promoting the media to have vestiges of the same view and encouraging the dehumanizing of women by others then you have a culture.
Premise: there is this hypothetical person who thinks a certain way
Premise: he has consensual sex
Conclusion: "it doesn't create a legitimate connection to the rape culture"
Relevance to topic of thread discussion: ??????????
I am saying that our culture is a rape culture because it makes rape a common occurrence. 1 in 6 women will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime, and that is a conservative estimate based on reported incidents. The estimates of how many cases go unreported and unacknowledged are universally extremely high.
Even rapists don't think they committed rape. Violent rapists are extreme examples, but I have talked to "non-violent" rapists, ie date rapists, who argued vehemently that what they did was not rape, and came close to violence against me for proposing that it was (unsurprisingly). Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but 1) it is clear that date rape and similar are epidemic, and 2) I don't think it's a surprise that a rapist rationalizes their raping. It's just important to note that it occurs.
Our culture does not actively promote rape as a fun time for all the boys. It does, however, fail utterly at discouraging or preventing rape, and it implicitly fosters rape in the very nature of male sexuality.
There is something wrong with HOW WE TREAT IT.
Well, since you dragged us into stupid hypothetical land...
Say that we now have a tribe of objectifying robots, like the one you had us imagine. Let's now say that one of them goes ahead and rapes a woman.
Since the other objectifying robots, according to your hypothetical, see no value in women at all, what do you think are the odds that they are going to react with opprobrium toward the rapist?
Essentially, it boils down to the idea that a culture that devalues the dignity of women will not be a culture equipped to find justice for women.
I would probably take exception to this but this thread has to walk before it can run
I think that open critical analysis of sexual imagery is a good start. If people become aware of the subtle underlying propositional content of the media they consume, they are less likely to be influenced negatively by it.
oh definitely. The remnants of puritanism has given America a totally fucked up sexual culture. Not responsible enough and not accepting enough. It's considered a taboo, and every problem with sex in the American psyche spins off of that guilt and shame that Americans feel about sex.
So what do you expect to do about it? Control the symptoms or attack the cause? Because whenever I hear someone saying "rape culture" it's always to attack something they don't like in entertainment or popular culture, and it's never the root cause.
How many of these rapes are by people the victim knew closely e.g. Family members, Clergy, Friends? If you're going to invoke dubious stats at least break down the composition of those stats by several factors.
I was pretty sure before I read this post that you didnt read the thread, now I am really sure
because "something they don't like in entertainment or popular culture" is like 1% of what's been under discussion so far
That's a pretty superficial reading of what people are talking about when they talk about rape culture. It has a lot more to do with (mostly) unspoken social norms and the relative power of women and men in society than it does with that scandalous two-piece Paris Hilton is wearing, or whatever.
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Geckhan: Both. Changing the discourse is a major part of it. People need to recognize the issue, first and foremost. As it is, they just deny it and perpetuate it or at least allow it to perpetuate itself.
I dont get it, is acquaintance rape "not real rape," and that's why the statistic is dubious? but okay, from the shakes post I quoted above (with links):
I'm no beefcake but I would sure as fuck call the police and try to stop them.
It does the opposite- it actively discourages, through education, societal pressure and the criminal justice system, such behavior. To such a point that a little kid can get in trouble for kissing a fellow classmate.
In what way? What aspect of our society in any way fails to discourage rape or implicitly even condones the practice, other than incredibly fringe groups, such as gang members? Rapes are treated very, very seriously by police and prosecutors. And even the accusation of rape, even if false, is incredibly devastating and tends to turn the accused into a social pariah.
Rigorous Scholarship
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
All reports I have ever read indicate that the vast majority of sexual violence is committed by people the victim knows well.
I don't get your question. It seems to me that most of our discussion has been more relevant to that type of sexual violence than the infinitely rarer type of sexual violence that is premeditated and carried out by a stranger.
I'm aware of the full definition of the word. I was just talking about when I most commonly hear it bandied about.
I just sense a complete lack of specific examples in cultural norms to back up claims of rape culture.
THEY didn't even call the police. Other people at a totally different party who weren't there at the time heard about it and called the police.
The fact that rape is against the law has no bearing on society's attitudes towards rape fyi. The justice system that you seem to put so much stock in exists within the rape culture, just like everything else!
Are you serious with the bold part?
Okay, go read this post and come back. And you can skip the part where you pick out one or two examples you disagree with and say "HAR HAR HOW RIDICULOUS" because that's already happened a few pages back
People picked it apart and laughed at it because it was mostly ridiculous bullshit.
Bang Bros does not tread anywhere close to rape. In 90% of their videos the women are all presented as professional porn actresses, who enjoy themselves. The other 10% are of the demeaning bang bus variety. Not my thing, but it's definitely not rape or anything close to rape.
Some guys like sex where women are portrayed as being demeaned. Some guys like sex where guys are portrayed as being demeaned - by either men or women. Some women like sex where guys are portrayed as being demeaned.
Still not seeing a connection to rape.
Uh, yes. We live in a culture of violence. But most people knew that already.
Nah mostly it was "But we joke about everything, really rape jokes are just part of the healing process" and then back to not being able to think of any examples of how the rape culture operates
But most rapists don't get in trouble. If we make the perfectly reasonable assumption that the majority of rapes are not committed by serial rapists, given that 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted then a similar number of men (or women yes women are capable of sexual violence too BUT the vast majority of sexual violence is man-on-woman, so sorry to reveal this uncomfortable fact) are rapists.
But they haven't gotten in trouble for it. So there can be extreme sentences for a few criminals, so that we can say "Oh look we are so serious about rape! 25 years in jail!" and Law & Order: SVU exists and makes it seem like rape is taken seriously and frequently prosecuted but actually it isn't. The severity of punishment is there, but not the certainty.
Did you read the OP?
-Roman Polanski rape apologists (including Whoopi Goldberg)
-Republican Senators who didn't think rape was a big enough reason to stop doing business with Halliburton. Senators! If that isn't evidence of acceptance--or at least insufficient outrage over--rape from the highest echelons of our society than I cannot help you.
-The fact that there were a dozen witnesses to the crime talked about in the OP but nobody responded.
-Atmosphere of shame and fear that prevents rape victims from reporting the crimes against them.
Really? You don't think that the schema "sex is best if the woman is being treated like a cum dumpster" has any connection to rape?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This is a really good point.
dude, shakesville? really?
I obviously can't address the whole thing. I do see a common thread of referencing outliers to backup claims of a societal wide "rape culture" though.
Also, violent sex is good sex. It's a fact.
Uh. Are you sure this is what you meant to say?
We also live in a country that serves a delicious flame-broiled Whopper™ from their local Burger King®. So I guess we live in a Burger King® Whopper™/Rape/Murder culture? How do definitions like this possibly help any kind of reasonable argument?
Haha. We are definitely a fast food culture, too.
So, if rape is highly illegal and considered a bad thing by pretty much everyone, how the heck can you say we live in a rape culture?
Hell, when was the last time a rapist was portrayed in a positive light in any context?
Rigorous Scholarship