* Allowing Kitty to possess the girl in Honnleath - this is again the act of a demon loving psycho. She doesn't even offer you anything in return, she just asks you to free her. SURE! I'LL RELEASE A DEMON UNTO THE WORLD NO PROB! I chose this once, just to see what would happen, and I was shocked - shocked! - that the game actually let you, considering so far it'd pretty much pigeon-holed me into doing the right thing.
What's so bad about desire demons? They give people what they want and not much else. I guess they'll act in self-defense too, what with
using Shale to kill Wilhelm
but doesn't seem to me that they're inherently evil. It's just that the people who use them are sometimes evil. And occasionally they force themselves on people, but that doesn't mean all of them do. (Actually have we had a desire demon known to have forced itself on somebody? The abominations maybe, but we don't know those are desire demons or whatnot....)
I mean, we know of the existence of good spirits. And desire isn't a sin in the same way rage, sloth, and pride are. Bwegh.
greed, lust, etc.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Telling the Lady of the Forest to slaughter all the Dalish is less psycho than killing a tribe of werewolves you now know (at this point in the quest) aren't completely bestial and have found a way to regain some higher thought processes and that they were made into werewolves by an angry elf who was wronged by some humans (in a very bad way) hundreds of years ago?
Really? Those elves are completely oblivious to what Zathrian has done. They're completely innocent and caught in the middle of the conflict between Witherfang and Zathrian.
At least the werewolves have actually done something wrong and aren't completely innocent in this, even if their motives aren't terrible.
it some point, being totally retardedly ignorant stops being an excuse
I'm pretty sure there's, like, no indication
the werewolves are anything but blood thirsty monsters until you actually talk to the spirit. And the elves haven't kill werewolves for anything but defensive reasons.
There's at least 2 pieces of evidence that werewolves aren't purely bloodthirsty monsters:
1) The conversation with the spouse who was recently bitten
2) Swiftrunner comes up talks to you and says you're a pawn, and don't know the whole story. Go away. Not exactly blood thirsty. He even accepts a chance to talk.
I feel there's more, but thats all I can come up with off the top of my head.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
the spirit talks about how they sent messages to the dalish and never got a response. Also the whole "leader's unnatural lifespan" thing. Basically the game makes it clear that they don't question their leader at all, even when a bunch of obviously intelligent werewolves and a weird forest-spirit-thing are on their doorstep saying "hey zathrian stop being a cock."
hard to feel incredibly sympathetic for them
also, the wolves are innocents too. They don't do anything at all to the elves until they don't have any other choice.
Monsters coming out of the forest to kill people in a camp. Nothing about any messages or said monsters conversing with anyone. Certainly nothing hinting at intelligence.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
Guys there's really no question that Desire Demons are evil. For one, they're of the demon classification. Demons and spirits are two distinctly different kind of Fade inhabitant. One is parasitic the other is symbiotic where concerns their interactions with mortals. Demons literally use people up and inhabit their hollowed out shell
Hunger, Rage, Sloth, Desire, and Pride are demons. Faith, Valor, Virtue and so forth are spirits.
There's at least 2 pieces of evidence that werewolves aren't purely bloodthirsty monsters:
1) The conversation with the spouse who was recently bitten
2) Swiftrunner comes up talks to you and says you're a pawn, and don't know the whole story. Go away. Not exactly blood thirsty. He even accepts a chance to talk.
I feel there's more, but thats all I can come up with off the top of my head.
Even then, those aren't to any elves. They just attack the elves and somehow they're supposed to know the entire story behind it?
And demons aren't evil, they're just jealous spirits. They want to walk around in the world, create, all of the benefits that non-spirits have. They take a bad part of people and they mimic it. They aren't evil.
Goomba on
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ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
* Allowing Kitty to possess the girl in Honnleath - this is again the act of a demon loving psycho. She doesn't even offer you anything in return, she just asks you to free her. SURE! I'LL RELEASE A DEMON UNTO THE WORLD NO PROB! I chose this once, just to see what would happen, and I was shocked - shocked! - that the game actually let you, considering so far it'd pretty much pigeon-holed me into doing the right thing.
What's so bad about desire demons? They give people what they want and not much else. I guess they'll act in self-defense too, what with
using Shale to kill Wilhelm
but doesn't seem to me that they're inherently evil. It's just that the people who use them are sometimes evil. And occasionally they force themselves on people, but that doesn't mean all of them do. (Actually have we had a desire demon known to have forced itself on somebody? The abominations maybe, but we don't know those are desire demons or whatnot....)
I mean, we know of the existence of good spirits. And desire isn't a sin in the same way rage, sloth, and pride are. Bwegh.
greed, lust, etc.
They're bad because they're not benevolent spirits. They're looking for what they want and they'll make any kind of deal they can to get it. And feed off of your immortal soul.
Guys there's really no question that Desire Demons are evil. For one, they're of the demon classification. Demons and spirits are two distinctly different kind of Fade inhabitant. One is parasitic the other is symbiotic where concerns their interactions with mortals.
Hunger, Rage, Sloth, Desire, and Pride are demons. Faith, Valor, Virtue and so forth are spirits.
I think thats like saying bad people and good people are two distinctly different kinds of Ferelden inhabitants. What leads you to believe that they are somehow fundamentally different other that how they treat mortals?
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
There's at least 2 pieces of evidence that werewolves aren't purely bloodthirsty monsters:
1) The conversation with the spouse who was recently bitten
2) Swiftrunner comes up talks to you and says you're a pawn, and don't know the whole story. Go away. Not exactly blood thirsty. He even accepts a chance to talk.
I feel there's more, but thats all I can come up with off the top of my head.
Even then, those aren't to any elves. They just attack the elves and somehow they're supposed to know the entire story behind it?
And demons aren't evil, they're just jealous spirits. They want to walk around in the world, create, all of the benefits that non-spirits have. They take a bad part of people and they mimic it. They aren't evil.
Except for the part where they displace your spirit forever and are parasites by nature.
Edit: Because they're things of magic Chrono. A Sloth Demon can't become a Desire demon like a lazy person can become a motivated person. It is the definition of their existence.
There's at least 2 pieces of evidence that werewolves aren't purely bloodthirsty monsters:
1) The conversation with the spouse who was recently bitten
2) Swiftrunner comes up talks to you and says you're a pawn, and don't know the whole story. Go away. Not exactly blood thirsty. He even accepts a chance to talk.
I feel there's more, but thats all I can come up with off the top of my head.
Even then, those aren't to any elves. They just attack the elves and somehow they're supposed to know the entire story behind it?
And demons aren't evil, they're just jealous spirits. They want to walk around in the world, create, all of the benefits that non-spirits have. They take a bad part of people and they mimic it. They aren't evil.
Except for the part where they displace your spirit forever and are parasites by nature.
Edit: Because they're things of magic Chrono. A Sloth Demon can't become a Desire demon like a lazy person can become a motivated person. It is the definition of their existence.
So are normal spirits. So do normal spirits. They just don't want to cross the veil.
And yes they can. It's what they see as being 'human' so they turn into that. Spirits don't mimic the bad parts, demons don't mimic the good parts. That's the only difference.
the spirit talks about how they sent messages to the dalish and never got a response. Also the whole "leader's unnatural lifespan" thing. Basically the game makes it clear that they don't question their leader at all, even when a bunch of obviously intelligent werewolves and a weird forest-spirit-thing are on their doorstep saying "hey zathrian stop being a cock."
hard to feel incredibly sympathetic for them
also, the wolves are innocents too. They don't do anything at all to the elves until they don't have any other choice.
Monsters coming out of the forest to kill people in a camp. Nothing about any messages or said monsters conversing with anyone. Certainly nothing hinting at intelligence.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
The wolves aren't innocent at all.
If you work through the spirit's dialogue
it tells you that they sent messengers to the elves every time "the landships came this way," but they never got a response. And when you get to the camp with the wolves, they have a fairly extended dialogue with zathrian and he's all "fuck you I'm never ending the curse." The elves apparently are cool with this.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
There's at least 2 pieces of evidence that werewolves aren't purely bloodthirsty monsters:
1) The conversation with the spouse who was recently bitten
2) Swiftrunner comes up talks to you and says you're a pawn, and don't know the whole story. Go away. Not exactly blood thirsty. He even accepts a chance to talk.
I feel there's more, but thats all I can come up with off the top of my head.
Even then, those aren't to any elves. They just attack the elves and somehow they're supposed to know the entire story behind it?
And demons aren't evil, they're just jealous spirits. They want to walk around in the world, create, all of the benefits that non-spirits have. They take a bad part of people and they mimic it. They aren't evil.
Except for the part where they displace your spirit forever and are parasites by nature.
Edit: Because they're things of magic Chrono. A Sloth Demon can't become a Desire demon like a lazy person can become a motivated person. It is the definition of their existence.
Are you just making up these rules of magic or is there somewhere written down in the codex somewhere? You're stating these rules about how magical beings work like this and that, but I don't remember anything that really touched on what you're saying. What says that a demon can't become more powerful and say become a desire demon even though it was originally a sloth, for example. I don't think this is codified anywhere, is it?
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
the spirit talks about how they sent messages to the dalish and never got a response. Also the whole "leader's unnatural lifespan" thing. Basically the game makes it clear that they don't question their leader at all, even when a bunch of obviously intelligent werewolves and a weird forest-spirit-thing are on their doorstep saying "hey zathrian stop being a cock."
hard to feel incredibly sympathetic for them
also, the wolves are innocents too. They don't do anything at all to the elves until they don't have any other choice.
Monsters coming out of the forest to kill people in a camp. Nothing about any messages or said monsters conversing with anyone. Certainly nothing hinting at intelligence.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
The wolves aren't innocent at all.
If you work through the spirit's dialogue
it tells you that they sent messengers to the elves every time "the landships came this way," but they never got a response. And when you get to the camp with the wolves, they have a fairly extended dialogue with zathrian and he's all "fuck you I'm never ending the curse." The elves apparently are cool with this.
They're not cool with it they don't even know
If a messenger would come to the camp, where would they send him? To the Keeper. The Keeper who would, as hard as it may be to believe, not actually tell everyone the message because, hey, guess what, they wouldn't be cool with it
the spirit talks about how they sent messages to the dalish and never got a response. Also the whole "leader's unnatural lifespan" thing. Basically the game makes it clear that they don't question their leader at all, even when a bunch of obviously intelligent werewolves and a weird forest-spirit-thing are on their doorstep saying "hey zathrian stop being a cock."
hard to feel incredibly sympathetic for them
also, the wolves are innocents too. They don't do anything at all to the elves until they don't have any other choice.
Monsters coming out of the forest to kill people in a camp. Nothing about any messages or said monsters conversing with anyone. Certainly nothing hinting at intelligence.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
The wolves aren't innocent at all.
If you work through the spirit's dialogue
it tells you that they sent messengers to the elves every time "the landships came this way," but they never got a response. And when you get to the camp with the wolves, they have a fairly extended dialogue with zathrian and he's all "fuck you I'm never ending the curse." The elves apparently are cool with this.
They're not cool with it they don't even know
If a messenger would come to the camp, where would they send him? To the Keeper. The Keeper who would, as hard as it may be to believe, not actually tell everyone the message because, hey, guess what, they wouldn't be cool with it
right, until you show up and tell them
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
the spirit talks about how they sent messages to the dalish and never got a response. Also the whole "leader's unnatural lifespan" thing. Basically the game makes it clear that they don't question their leader at all, even when a bunch of obviously intelligent werewolves and a weird forest-spirit-thing are on their doorstep saying "hey zathrian stop being a cock."
hard to feel incredibly sympathetic for them
also, the wolves are innocents too. They don't do anything at all to the elves until they don't have any other choice.
Monsters coming out of the forest to kill people in a camp. Nothing about any messages or said monsters conversing with anyone. Certainly nothing hinting at intelligence.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
The wolves aren't innocent at all.
If you work through the spirit's dialogue
it tells you that they sent messengers to the elves every time "the landships came this way," but they never got a response. And when you get to the camp with the wolves, they have a fairly extended dialogue with zathrian and he's all "fuck you I'm never ending the curse." The elves apparently are cool with this.
They're not cool with it they don't even know
If a messenger would come to the camp, where would they send him? To the Keeper. The Keeper who would, as hard as it may be to believe, not actually tell everyone the message because, hey, guess what, they wouldn't be cool with it
right, until you show up and tell them
You mean when you're like "oh hay we're gon' kill you all"
Yeah, how dare they not be like "oh, okay, cool" after that.
the spirit talks about how they sent messages to the dalish and never got a response. Also the whole "leader's unnatural lifespan" thing. Basically the game makes it clear that they don't question their leader at all, even when a bunch of obviously intelligent werewolves and a weird forest-spirit-thing are on their doorstep saying "hey zathrian stop being a cock."
hard to feel incredibly sympathetic for them
also, the wolves are innocents too. They don't do anything at all to the elves until they don't have any other choice.
Monsters coming out of the forest to kill people in a camp. Nothing about any messages or said monsters conversing with anyone. Certainly nothing hinting at intelligence.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
The wolves aren't innocent at all.
If you work through the spirit's dialogue
it tells you that they sent messengers to the elves every time "the landships came this way," but they never got a response. And when you get to the camp with the wolves, they have a fairly extended dialogue with zathrian and he's all "fuck you I'm never ending the curse." The elves apparently are cool with this.
They're not cool with it they don't even know
The current ones don't know. But unless Zatharian covered up all the messengers in an amazing Big Brother scheme by himself, some of the elves must have known the werewolves were sentient, right?
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
It seems like some of them know that, at least, they start out retaining some of their humanity (elfanity. Whatever). The dude whose wife was turned into a werewolf wasn't all "WHAT SHE COULD STILL TALK" if you tell her she succumbed to the curse but not before sending her love.
And the second in command mentions that she suspected that Zathrian had a role in the curse, but not the extent to which it went
told his second in command at least enough about the curse to know how to end it, if not more. So at least one elf is not completely clueless. Two, if you count Athras. And of course they all find out when the wolves show up at the camp.
I mean, it isn't to say that the wolves are white-as-driven-snow innocent either, but the elves are at the very least too dumb to live
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
* Allowing Kitty to possess the girl in Honnleath - this is again the act of a demon loving psycho. She doesn't even offer you anything in return, she just asks you to free her. SURE! I'LL RELEASE A DEMON UNTO THE WORLD NO PROB! I chose this once, just to see what would happen, and I was shocked - shocked! - that the game actually let you, considering so far it'd pretty much pigeon-holed me into doing the right thing.
What's so bad about desire demons? They give people what they want and not much else. I guess they'll act in self-defense too, what with
using Shale to kill Wilhelm
but doesn't seem to me that they're inherently evil. It's just that the people who use them are sometimes evil. And occasionally they force themselves on people, but that doesn't mean all of them do. (Actually have we had a desire demon known to have forced itself on somebody? The abominations maybe, but we don't know those are desire demons or whatnot....)
I mean, we know of the existence of good spirits. And desire isn't a sin in the same way rage, sloth, and pride are. Bwegh.
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
the spirit talks about how they sent messages to the dalish and never got a response. Also the whole "leader's unnatural lifespan" thing. Basically the game makes it clear that they don't question their leader at all, even when a bunch of obviously intelligent werewolves and a weird forest-spirit-thing are on their doorstep saying "hey zathrian stop being a cock."
hard to feel incredibly sympathetic for them
also, the wolves are innocents too. They don't do anything at all to the elves until they don't have any other choice.
Monsters coming out of the forest to kill people in a camp. Nothing about any messages or said monsters conversing with anyone. Certainly nothing hinting at intelligence.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
The wolves aren't innocent at all.
If you work through the spirit's dialogue
it tells you that they sent messengers to the elves every time "the landships came this way," but they never got a response. And when you get to the camp with the wolves, they have a fairly extended dialogue with zathrian and he's all "fuck you I'm never ending the curse." The elves apparently are cool with this.
They're not cool with it they don't even know
If a messenger would come to the camp, where would they send him? To the Keeper. The Keeper who would, as hard as it may be to believe, not actually tell everyone the message because, hey, guess what, they wouldn't be cool with it
right, until you show up and tell them
You mean when you're like "oh hay we're gon' kill you all"
Yeah, how dare they not be like "oh, okay, cool" after that.
have you actually done it in game?
you go to the camp and the spirit talks to zathrian there, in front of a bunch of elves. And he gives basically the same "I'll never stop hating you" speech that he does in the ruins.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
told his second in command at least enough about the curse to know how to end it, if not more. So at least one elf is not completely clueless. Two, if you count Athras. And of course they all find out when the wolves show up at the camp.
I mean, it isn't to say that the wolves are white-as-driven-snow innocent either, but the elves are at the very least too dumb to live
I don't agree with any of this at all.
The elves (except Zathrian and maybe a few of his inner circle who he's told only part of the truth to) don't know anything about the werewolves except that they attack them. They have no way of knowing that it's Zathrian's fault. They might be able to figure out Zathrian is hiding something from them but I don't see how they possibly could have extrapolated that Zathrian is the cause of the curse from that.
"Too dumb to live" is way too harsh on the elves IMO.
It's specifically stated in the codex that all fade spirits are the same thing. Calling a fade spirit a demon is just a title they give to spirits that mimic the more evil of human emotions.
They even go as far as to say that some spirits don't even understand the emotions they are emulating. For example, one of the codex's states that even though rage demons are emulating hate and rage, they often don't even have a subject to hate. They just channel the emotion.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
It's specifically stated in the codex that all fade spirits are the same thing. Calling a fade spirit a demon is just a title they give to spirits that mimic the more evil of human emotions.
They even go as far as to say that some spirits don't even understand the emotions they are emulating. For example, one of the codex's states that even though rage demons are emulating hate and rage, they often don't even have a subject to hate. They just channel the emotion.
Right because it's their nature. I guess you could argue that this makes them neutral because they don't know/aren't capable of any better but a being that isn't CAPABLE of anything but parasitically draining people and acting on their dark side is evil for all intents and purposes relevant to us now isn't it?
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
Er, not really.
yes, really
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves, they just live in different camps
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
I wouldn't personally like the canon to come out and confirm strict categories for creatures of the fade. I imagine they would be as varied in motivation and good/evilness as the PC races ace, maybe even more so considering that in the fade perception can actually shape reality.
I realize that since it's a game and they can only model so many different types of enemies they split the demons into categories. But I interpreted the categories as broad classifications rather than something concrete, and that every spirit/demon is unique.
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
Er, not really.
yes, really
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
I'm not sure if a creature defined in no small part by the fact that they have to emulate mortals can, simultaneously, have personalities as varied as the species on which they depend for definition.
In and of themselves I mean, this is a bit of a contradiction.
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
There's solidarity, but there are also different clans and they are all easily identified as different clans by their tattoos.
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
There's solidarity, but there are also different clans and they are all easily identified as different clans by their tattoos.
it doesn't really matter anyway, unless zathrian is handing out 'werewolf-go-crazy' cologne to all his hunters
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
It's specifically stated in the codex that all fade spirits are the same thing. Calling a fade spirit a demon is just a title they give to spirits that mimic the more evil of human emotions.
They even go as far as to say that some spirits don't even understand the emotions they are emulating. For example, one of the codex's states that even though rage demons are emulating hate and rage, they often don't even have a subject to hate. They just channel the emotion.
Right because it's their nature. I guess you could argue that this makes them neutral because they don't know/aren't capable of any better but a being that isn't CAPABLE of anything but parasitically draining people and acting on their dark side is evil for all intents and purposes relevant to us now isn't it?
I agree. Even if the demons are not evil in the same way humans are evil. Humans will still take actions to prevent themselves from harm. And since it is usually fruitless or even potentially destructive to try and reason or bargain with a demon, it's best served to simply kill them outright.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I'm not sure if a creature defined in no small part by the fact that they have to emulate mortals can, simultaneously, have personalities as varied as the species on which they depend for definition.
In and of themselves I mean, this is a bit of a contradiction.
I'm confused about what you mean by "have to emulate mortals". I took away from the whole spirit discussions that they are living beings in the fade, their "world". Demons are simply those that wish to take control of a mortal to escape the fade by forcefully possessing them. The stronger ones can use feelings like desire while the weaker ones are relegated to sloth, using our previous example.
But I would say that, like what yougottawanna said, is that mortals don't know (or at least the mortals that we meet) much about demons beyond what they do. It could be as simple is that a desire demon is something akin to a demon who can use the feeling desire as a weapon. It might be the same way a demon might say describe a fire mage, for example. We just don't have enough info to say anything definitively.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
Posts
greed, lust, etc.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
1) The conversation with the spouse who was recently bitten
2) Swiftrunner comes up talks to you and says you're a pawn, and don't know the whole story. Go away. Not exactly blood thirsty. He even accepts a chance to talk.
I feel there's more, but thats all I can come up with off the top of my head.
Elves used to be immortal, so of course they are going to follow an elf that has rediscovered even the tiniest bit of their past.
The wolves aren't innocent at all.
Hunger, Rage, Sloth, Desire, and Pride are demons. Faith, Valor, Virtue and so forth are spirits.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
And demons aren't evil, they're just jealous spirits. They want to walk around in the world, create, all of the benefits that non-spirits have. They take a bad part of people and they mimic it. They aren't evil.
They're bad because they're not benevolent spirits. They're looking for what they want and they'll make any kind of deal they can to get it. And feed off of your immortal soul.
I think thats like saying bad people and good people are two distinctly different kinds of Ferelden inhabitants. What leads you to believe that they are somehow fundamentally different other that how they treat mortals?
Except for the part where they displace your spirit forever and are parasites by nature.
Edit: Because they're things of magic Chrono. A Sloth Demon can't become a Desire demon like a lazy person can become a motivated person. It is the definition of their existence.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
And yes they can. It's what they see as being 'human' so they turn into that. Spirits don't mimic the bad parts, demons don't mimic the good parts. That's the only difference.
But, to suggest that a demon isn't evil because it's also a spirit is pretty much ridiculous.
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If you work through the spirit's dialogue
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Are you just making up these rules of magic or is there somewhere written down in the codex somewhere? You're stating these rules about how magical beings work like this and that, but I don't remember anything that really touched on what you're saying. What says that a demon can't become more powerful and say become a desire demon even though it was originally a sloth, for example. I don't think this is codified anywhere, is it?
If a messenger would come to the camp, where would they send him? To the Keeper. The Keeper who would, as hard as it may be to believe, not actually tell everyone the message because, hey, guess what, they wouldn't be cool with it
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
right, until you show up and tell them
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yeah, how dare they not be like "oh, okay, cool" after that.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
edit: also,
And the second in command mentions that she suspected that Zathrian had a role in the curse, but not the extent to which it went
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
I mean, it isn't to say that the wolves are white-as-driven-snow innocent either, but the elves are at the very least too dumb to live
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Um
have you actually done it in game?
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
I don't agree with any of this at all.
"Too dumb to live" is way too harsh on the elves IMO.
They even go as far as to say that some spirits don't even understand the emotions they are emulating. For example, one of the codex's states that even though rage demons are emulating hate and rage, they often don't even have a subject to hate. They just channel the emotion.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Right because it's their nature. I guess you could argue that this makes them neutral because they don't know/aren't capable of any better but a being that isn't CAPABLE of anything but parasitically draining people and acting on their dark side is evil for all intents and purposes relevant to us now isn't it?
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
yes, really
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves, they just live in different camps
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
I wouldn't personally like the canon to come out and confirm strict categories for creatures of the fade. I imagine they would be as varied in motivation and good/evilness as the PC races ace, maybe even more so considering that in the fade perception can actually shape reality.
I realize that since it's a game and they can only model so many different types of enemies they split the demons into categories. But I interpreted the categories as broad classifications rather than something concrete, and that every spirit/demon is unique.
In and of themselves I mean, this is a bit of a contradiction.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
it doesn't really matter anyway, unless zathrian is handing out 'werewolf-go-crazy' cologne to all his hunters
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I agree. Even if the demons are not evil in the same way humans are evil. Humans will still take actions to prevent themselves from harm. And since it is usually fruitless or even potentially destructive to try and reason or bargain with a demon, it's best served to simply kill them outright.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I'm confused about what you mean by "have to emulate mortals". I took away from the whole spirit discussions that they are living beings in the fade, their "world". Demons are simply those that wish to take control of a mortal to escape the fade by forcefully possessing them. The stronger ones can use feelings like desire while the weaker ones are relegated to sloth, using our previous example.
But I would say that, like what yougottawanna said, is that mortals don't know (or at least the mortals that we meet) much about demons beyond what they do. It could be as simple is that a desire demon is something akin to a demon who can use the feeling desire as a weapon. It might be the same way a demon might say describe a fire mage, for example. We just don't have enough info to say anything definitively.