Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
There's solidarity, but there are also different clans and they are all easily identified as different clans by their tattoos.
it doesn't really matter anyway, unless zathrian is handing out 'werewolf-go-crazy' cologne to all his hunters
It does matter because the werewolves have a tenuous at best grasp on their humanity, so seeing an elf from the clan they blame for their curse may very well send them over the edge.
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
There's solidarity, but there are also different clans and they are all easily identified as different clans by their tattoos.
it doesn't really matter anyway, unless zathrian is handing out 'werewolf-go-crazy' cologne to all his hunters
It does matter because the werewolves have a tenuous at best grasp on their humanity, so seeing an elf from the clan they blame for their curse may very well send them over the edge.
no. We don't ever seem them just go "over the edge." You have a bunch of opportunities to goad them, too, and they won't just attack you. Despite all the talk of how savage they are they're quite obviously capable of restraint and higher reasoning.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
There's solidarity, but there are also different clans and they are all easily identified as different clans by their tattoos.
it doesn't really matter anyway, unless zathrian is handing out 'werewolf-go-crazy' cologne to all his hunters
It does matter because the werewolves have a tenuous at best grasp on their humanity, so seeing an elf from the clan they blame for their curse may very well send them over the edge.
no. We don't ever seem them just go "over the edge." You have a bunch of opportunities to goad them, too, and they won't just attack you. Despite all the talk of how savage they are they're quite obviously capable of restraint and higher reasoning.
If anything
I mean, they Zatharian himself walked in on your conversation with the spirit, and amazingly they didn't go into any blood crazed state. I mean, sure the spirit was there to help calm things, but I mean here was werewolf enemy #1 standing right in front of them, but they realized they shouldn't kill him because they needed him.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
Er, not really.
yes, really
There's one that can talk to you, then as you get closer to the spirit more can. Out in the camp? Fuck no, they attack you on sight. Even right up until you meet face to face with the spirit they attack on sight. Even some that talk to you attack on sight.
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
There's solidarity, but there are also different clans and they are all easily identified as different clans by their tattoos.
it doesn't really matter anyway, unless zathrian is handing out 'werewolf-go-crazy' cologne to all his hunters
It does matter because the werewolves have a tenuous at best grasp on their humanity, so seeing an elf from the clan they blame for their curse may very well send them over the edge.
no. We don't ever seem them just go "over the edge." You have a bunch of opportunities to goad them, too, and they won't just attack you. Despite all the talk of how savage they are they're quite obviously capable of restraint and higher reasoning.
If anything
I mean, they Zatharian himself walked in on your conversation with the spirit, and amazingly they didn't go into any blood crazed state. I mean, sure the spirit was there to help calm things, but I mean here was werewolf enemy #1 standing right in front of them, but they realized they shouldn't kill him because they needed him.
For all of five seconds until Swiftrunner is like "RAAAAR KILL THEM ALL"
Yes, but they need to actually talk to the werewolf to actually send it to the keeper or not. So, they must have known they were sentient right? Either that or they killed him before he even got a word out.
Well, see, I wasn't assuming they would actually send a werewolf when they know that elves will kill a werewolf because, hey, 'werewolves like to attack and kill us all the fucking time.'
So, yeah, they probably do kill the messenger in that case. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if the messenger went apeshit when they saw Zathrian or another elf. Sure they regained their humanity, but it didn't exactly seem like they had an iron-tight grip on it
they can talk to the player without going apeshit, can't they?
1) Barely
2) The player isn't a member of Zathrian's tribe, is he and/or she?
I don't think the dalish really have tribes. They dalish are a tribe of elves.
Clan, then.
no, you aren't from the same camp, but it's not clear that would really be relevant anyway. My sense was that there is a fair amount of dalish solidarity, they just live spread out as befits a hunter/gatherer society
There's solidarity, but there are also different clans and they are all easily identified as different clans by their tattoos.
it doesn't really matter anyway, unless zathrian is handing out 'werewolf-go-crazy' cologne to all his hunters
It does matter because the werewolves have a tenuous at best grasp on their humanity, so seeing an elf from the clan they blame for their curse may very well send them over the edge.
no. We don't ever seem them just go "over the edge." You have a bunch of opportunities to goad them, too, and they won't just attack you. Despite all the talk of how savage they are they're quite obviously capable of restraint and higher reasoning.
If anything
I mean, they Zatharian himself walked in on your conversation with the spirit, and amazingly they didn't go into any blood crazed state. I mean, sure the spirit was there to help calm things, but I mean here was werewolf enemy #1 standing right in front of them, but they realized they shouldn't kill him because they needed him.
For all of five seconds until Swiftrunner is like "RAAAAR KILL THEM ALL"
that isn't really how it goes down, no
besides which, in at least half of the possible dialogue options it's zathrian who throws the first punch in that fight
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this.
Okay, one side is good. But you're trying to justify murdering innocent people because they follow someone's that's a big jerk when they have no idea how big a jerk he is.
Zathrian is a dick and will initiate the fight, but Swiftrunner either A) attacks you or settles for hoping other things will kill you in every single encounter until the Lady of the Forest tells him to chillax.
B refers to the first encounter, A refers to the second. And as has been said, Swiftrunner wanted to kill all your asses until the Lady intervened in the third and final encounter.
I mean if you're in there and you either don't select it or don't have a high enough persuade, you wind up being able to say
"I'm not going to help you kill them, zathrian" and he's all "fine, I'll kill you and then I'll kill them." The PC can also take his side of course, but there's no "swiftrunner just goes RAAH KILLLLL going on there. I mean, at the beginning he says that to the spirit, then stands there and listens to you talk
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The Lady's influence he's still a homicidal loon. His ability to overcome his bestial side is negligible to the point of being effectively non-existent outside of her presence.
The Lady's influence he's still a homicidal loon. His ability to overcome his bestial side is negligible to the point of being effectively non-existent outside of her presence.
What about the first time you meet him:
I talked to him in the forest, and amazingly he didn't rip my throat out right then and there!
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
I mean if you're in there and you either don't select it or don't have a high enough persuade, you wind up being able to say
"I'm not going to help you kill them, zathrian" and he's all "fine, I'll kill you and then I'll kill them." The PC can also take his side of course, but there's no "swiftrunner just goes RAAH KILLLLL going on there. I mean, at the beginning he says that to the spirit, then stands there and listens to you talk
...I just said that! I said, right at the start, Swiftrunner is like KILL HIM as soon as he sees Zathrian ('for all of five seconds' = 'right away' you see).
I know I said that.
And then you said it never happened! But now you're saying it does!
and I mean, if you do side with the werewolves, you get a nice werewolf who hangs out with the other army emissaries in your camp and manages not to eat the mage emissary
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
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I mean if you're in there and you either don't select it or don't have a high enough persuade, you wind up being able to say
"I'm not going to help you kill them, zathrian" and he's all "fine, I'll kill you and then I'll kill them." The PC can also take his side of course, but there's no "swiftrunner just goes RAAH KILLLLL going on there. I mean, at the beginning he says that to the spirit, then stands there and listens to you talk
...I just said that! I said, right at the start, Swiftrunner is like KILL HIM as soon as he sees Zathrian ('for all of five seconds' = 'right away' you see).
I know I said that.
And then you said it never happened! But now you're saying it does!
He wants to kill zathrian, yes. It's also obvious that he can control himself, which is the opposite of what you were trying to say.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I mean if you're in there and you either don't select it or don't have a high enough persuade, you wind up being able to say
"I'm not going to help you kill them, zathrian" and he's all "fine, I'll kill you and then I'll kill them." The PC can also take his side of course, but there's no "swiftrunner just goes RAAH KILLLLL going on there. I mean, at the beginning he says that to the spirit, then stands there and listens to you talk
...I just said that! I said, right at the start, Swiftrunner is like KILL HIM as soon as he sees Zathrian ('for all of five seconds' = 'right away' you see).
I know I said that.
And then you said it never happened! But now you're saying it does!
He wants to kill zathrian, yes. It's also obvious that he can control himself, which is the opposite of what you were trying to say.
He controls himself because the Lady is right there. This is made obvious when she is like "dude, stop losing your shit we're trying to talk here'
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
I mean if you're in there and you either don't select it or don't have a high enough persuade, you wind up being able to say
"I'm not going to help you kill them, zathrian" and he's all "fine, I'll kill you and then I'll kill them." The PC can also take his side of course, but there's no "swiftrunner just goes RAAH KILLLLL going on there. I mean, at the beginning he says that to the spirit, then stands there and listens to you talk
...I just said that! I said, right at the start, Swiftrunner is like KILL HIM as soon as he sees Zathrian ('for all of five seconds' = 'right away' you see).
I know I said that.
And then you said it never happened! But now you're saying it does!
I don't think that he's arguing that Swiftrunner doesn't WANT to kill Zartharian. But wanting to kill someone doesn't make him a blood thirsty monster. I mean, the MC wants to kill Loghain through the whole story (well if you play him that way) and I wouldn't consider the MC a blood thirsty monster for that.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
I mean if you're in there and you either don't select it or don't have a high enough persuade, you wind up being able to say
"I'm not going to help you kill them, zathrian" and he's all "fine, I'll kill you and then I'll kill them." The PC can also take his side of course, but there's no "swiftrunner just goes RAAH KILLLLL going on there. I mean, at the beginning he says that to the spirit, then stands there and listens to you talk
...I just said that! I said, right at the start, Swiftrunner is like KILL HIM as soon as he sees Zathrian ('for all of five seconds' = 'right away' you see).
I know I said that.
And then you said it never happened! But now you're saying it does!
He wants to kill zathrian, yes. It's also obvious that he can control himself, which is the opposite of what you were trying to say.
He controls himself because the Lady is right there. This is made obvious when she is like "dude, stop losing your shit we're trying to talk here'
you mean the part where she... reasons with him?
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The Lady's influence he's still a homicidal loon. His ability to overcome his bestial side is negligible to the point of being effectively non-existent outside of her presence.
What about the first time you meet him:
I talked to him in the forest, and amazingly he didn't rip my throat out right then and there!
I literally just addressed that. Why do I even type these things
That is the only instance in which he shows restraint and even then he is hoping that the forest will kill you and/or his own people scattered throughout the passable portions of the woods.
This is why I say that his capacity for restraint is limited to the point of near non-existence. The one time he shows it outside the Lady's presence he's merely unwilling to kill you directly.
When only a magical spirit can calm you with her aura of magical tranquility, you're kinda savage. All this has nothing to do with whether the werewolves deserve death mind you, I'm only saying that their regaining of their humanity is tenuous at best.
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I mean, the werewolves make a bargain with you, then swear an oath to follow you into battle, then serve in your army. These are not the actions of a bunch of rage-crazed animals.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
in both the elf origins he saves you from certain death, and from very probable death in the dwarf noble one. In the mage origin he saves you from spending most of your life in the tower, if not imprisonment/death.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But... that's incredibly stupid.
Being a Grey Warden is the entire point of the game. Going around and gathering an army to fight the blight and finally killing the Archdemon is just what Wardens do. The treaties oblige the various factions to help the Grey Wardens. I guess it's not absolutely necessary that the main character is a Grey Warden, but it makes the most sense from a gameplay/story perspective.
Imagine if you go to the dwarves and say "this treaty obliges you to help the Wardens. I'm not a Warden, but this guy I left back at camp totally is. Trust me."
If you're not a Warden, they may as well retitle the game Dragon Age: Alistair's Quest because it's not even about you anymore. It's about him. He's gathering the armies, he's leading them when they're gathered, and you're just another secondary companion.
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
in both the elf origins he saves you from certain death, and from very probable death in the dwarf noble one. In the mage origin he saves you from spending most of your life in the tower, if not imprisonment/death.
In the mage one
betraying Jowan should have left you in the good graces of the Circle. Then, having proven your loyalty, you get dispatched to Ostigar to aid Wynne and the others.
Dwarf and Elf could be troublesome, but with less plotjacking (like at the end of the castless), something could have been worked out. In city elf origin
I hear you can flee to the Dalish before Duncan conscripts you, so a variation on that might work (flee to Ostigar to look for work like that one family is), etc.
Edit: @Behemoth: Or its still about you, unwillingly getting caught up in events and having to shepard a completely useless Gray Warden around because otherwise he would just sit around cutting himself and moaning about Duncan. This is exactly the same in function as the current game when
you don't sacrifice yourself.
Being a Gray Warden yourself otherwise is pretty much irrelevant. (and it's not Dragon Age: Gray Wardens either)
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I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
in both the elf origins he saves you from certain death, and from very probable death in the dwarf noble one. In the mage origin he saves you from spending most of your life in the tower, if not imprisonment/death.
Eh. Those don't seem too hard to change. I mean, in the mage origin you could just run off with Jowan when he does the bloodsplosion on everybody.
And considering the amount of murder you do in some of the origins, I don't think that being trapped in "certain death" is that dangerous. You could always just kill them and run off.
Dalish elf is a little hard though, I'll give you that.
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
in both the elf origins he saves you from certain death, and from very probable death in the dwarf noble one. In the mage origin he saves you from spending most of your life in the tower, if not imprisonment/death.
In the mage one
betraying Jowan should have left you in the good graces of the Circle. Then, having proven your loyalty, you get dispatched to Ostigar to aid Wynne and the others.
Dwarf and Elf could be troublesome, but with less plotjacking (like at the end of the castless), something could have been worked out. In city elf origin
I hear you can flee to the Dalish before Duncan conscripts you, so a variation on that might work (flee to Ostigar to look for work like that one family is), etc.
Then, at Ostagar, because you're not a Grey Warden, you don't get the treaties, don't meet Morrigan, aren't sent to the Tower of Ishal, and are definitely not saved by Flemeth.
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
in both the elf origins he saves you from certain death, and from very probable death in the dwarf noble one. In the mage origin he saves you from spending most of your life in the tower, if not imprisonment/death.
In the mage one
betraying Jowan should have left you in the good graces of the Circle. Then, having proven your loyalty, you get dispatched to Ostigar to aid Wynne and the others.
Dwarf and Elf could be troublesome, but with less plotjacking (like at the end of the castless), something could have been worked out. In city elf origin
I hear you can flee to the Dalish before Duncan conscripts you, so a variation on that might work (flee to Ostigar to look for work like that one family is), etc.
Then, at Ostagar, because you're not a Grey Warden, you don't get the treaties, don't meet Morrigan, aren't sent to the Tower of Ishal, and are definitely not saved by Flemeth.
You get slaughtered with the rest of the army!
Game over.
In the dalish origin
you have blight sickness. So if you don't become a warden you're probably headed for ostagar anyway, to fight for the wrong side.
In the city elf origin the guards would almost certainly kill you.
In the mage origin you're either going to get hunted down by the templars (they have your phylactery after all), or left in the mage tower to whatever fate you get for helping a blood mage out. Granted it was at Irving's request but gregoire is far from sanguine about it, and he's the one ultimately in charge.
As a dwarf noble it's arguably conceivable that you could fight your way out of the deep roads on your own, but eh. They don't even give you any fucking shoes when they throw you in there, how much chance do you have?
Of course any of those origins could be "different" in a way that caused them to make sense, but then you probably aren't at ostagar, don't meet the wardens, and it's an entirely different game.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
Not necessarily. Take for example V:tM:Bloodlines as a Malkavian (crazy vampire with ESP). They rewrote all the dialogue in the game to be crazy. In Dragon Age's case, they could have - and I'm not saying that they should have, just pointing out the feasibility here - rewritten the pieces of dialogue specifically regarding you being a GW and replaced the Korcari Wilds with something else (and just assign you as a Tower Guard for the Tower of Ishal). However, Alistair would be a permanent party member and takes over a few bits of dialogue (getting into Orzammar etc.).
On another note, I'm halfway through a game where I tell nobody whatsoever my name. I don't expect to be rewarded for this, but if there is an easter egg related to it, that would be awesome.
Bethryn on
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
They should just make a "Roadie" Origin for the people who don't want Alistair to be the only Grey Warden.
You're a Roadie. Invisible. Helping the true Rockstar from the shadows. And when your job is done,you slip back into the shadows, as if you'd never been there.
Edit: @Behemoth: Or its still about you, unwillingly getting caught up in events and having to shepard a completely useless Gray Warden around because otherwise he would just sit around cutting himself and moaning about Duncan. This is exactly the same in function as the current game when
you don't sacrifice yourself.
Being a Gray Warden yourself otherwise is pretty much irrelevant. (and it's not Dragon Age: Gray Wardens either)
But the whole fucking point of the game is the same as the sworn duty of the Grey Wardens! And if you're so opposed to being a Warden, why do you want to help them? Why not just fuck off to Orlais or Antiva and leave Fereldan to it's fate?
It would be like a game about fighting fire where you aren't a firefighter, but a guy who follows firefighters around giving them help. It's just stupid.
Not necessarily. Take for example V:tM:Bloodlines as a Malkavian (crazy vampire with ESP). They rewrote all the dialogue in the game to be crazy. In Dragon Age's case, they could have - and I'm not saying that they should have, just pointing out the feasibility here - rewritten the pieces of dialogue specifically regarding you being a GW and replaced the Korcari Wilds with something else (and just assign you as a Tower Guard for the Tower of Ishal). However, Alistair would be a permanent party member and takes over a few bits of dialogue (getting into Orzammar etc.).
On another note, I'm halfway through a game where I tell nobody whatsoever my name. I don't expect to be rewarded for this, but if there is an easter egg related to it, that would be awesome.
At that point you're no longer even playing the main character in the story. You're literally adventuring around as a sidekick. Which is fine, you pick up plenty of sidekicks in the game, it just doesn't seem that sensible to make the player into one.
ed: I guess klyka really did a better job of making this point
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
in both the elf origins he saves you from certain death, and from very probable death in the dwarf noble one. In the mage origin he saves you from spending most of your life in the tower, if not imprisonment/death.
In the mage one
betraying Jowan should have left you in the good graces of the Circle. Then, having proven your loyalty, you get dispatched to Ostigar to aid Wynne and the others.
Dwarf and Elf could be troublesome, but with less plotjacking (like at the end of the castless), something could have been worked out. In city elf origin
I hear you can flee to the Dalish before Duncan conscripts you, so a variation on that might work (flee to Ostigar to look for work like that one family is), etc.
Then, at Ostagar, because you're not a Grey Warden, you don't get the treaties, don't meet Morrigan, aren't sent to the Tower of Ishal, and are definitely not saved by Flemeth.
You get slaughtered with the rest of the army!
Game over.
In the dalish origin
you have blight sickness. So if you don't become a warden you're probably headed for ostagar anyway, to fight for the wrong side.
In the city elf origin the guards would almost certainly kill you.
In the mage origin you're either going to get hunted down by the templars (they have your phylactery after all), or left in the mage tower to whatever fate you get for helping a blood mage out. Granted it was at Irving's request but gregoire is far from sanguine about it, and he's the one ultimately in charge.
As a dwarf noble it's arguably conceivable that you could fight your way out of the deep roads on your own, but eh. They don't even give you any fucking shoes when they throw you in there, how much chance do you have?
Of course any of those origins could be "different" in a way that caused them to make sense, but then you probably aren't at ostagar, don't meet the wardens, and it's an entirely different game.
Well, the original question was why you can't tell Duncan to fuck off and not join. Because of the conceit of the game, you obviously have to join. The question is options:
1) Only have the dialog options that say you want to join, then join
2) Also have a dialog in which case you tell him to fuck off, and he forces you to join anyways.
It's not like mages can't paralyze or keep people in a force bubble or anything. Story wise, you'd just show up to Ostegar, covered in blood, radiating bad motherfucker rays. Duncan would notice how awesome you are, have a mage paralyze you, and force some blood down your throat. It's not so tough.
Dwarf origin - Survive, evade, resist, escape, pop up in a tunnel in Ostegar
City Elf - You've already killed a lot of people, just kill some more and get out of there. Escape to Ostegar
Dalish Elf - dArKsPaWn cAlLs yOu
City Noble - Go visit brother, demand action from the king
Mage - Escape with Jowan or get deployed to Ostegar
I mean, does the game really need obvious fail conditions? Can't you just imagine them?
They don't have to be obvious failures; I would have liked a few outs from actually being a gray warden but still along for the quest (like everyone but Alister). There are plenty of ways your character could have made it to Ostigar without Duncan, and from there been caught up in the battle, hook up with Alister somehow, and then gone on your merry way.
Human Noble: go chasing after your brother at Ostigar and arrive just as the battle starts
Mage: Betray Jowan and get deployed to the battle
etc. It may be a little trickier for the dwarves and elves, but not really unworkable.
the whole story of the game changes pretty fundamentally if you are not a warden
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
Well, in the I don't know how it would work for the other origins (especially City Elf) but with the Human Noble origin, at least:
Duncan isn't even there for you, and never shows up until you're already at the exit. You could just be like "Screw you I'm finding my brother" and head to Ostagar on your own for that reason.
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
in both the elf origins he saves you from certain death, and from very probable death in the dwarf noble one. In the mage origin he saves you from spending most of your life in the tower, if not imprisonment/death.
In the mage one
betraying Jowan should have left you in the good graces of the Circle. Then, having proven your loyalty, you get dispatched to Ostigar to aid Wynne and the others.
Dwarf and Elf could be troublesome, but with less plotjacking (like at the end of the castless), something could have been worked out. In city elf origin
I hear you can flee to the Dalish before Duncan conscripts you, so a variation on that might work (flee to Ostigar to look for work like that one family is), etc.
Then, at Ostagar, because you're not a Grey Warden, you don't get the treaties, don't meet Morrigan, aren't sent to the Tower of Ishal, and are definitely not saved by Flemeth.
You get slaughtered with the rest of the army!
Game over.
In the dalish origin
you have blight sickness. So if you don't become a warden you're probably headed for ostagar anyway, to fight for the wrong side.
In the city elf origin the guards would almost certainly kill you.
In the mage origin you're either going to get hunted down by the templars (they have your phylactery after all), or left in the mage tower to whatever fate you get for helping a blood mage out. Granted it was at Irving's request but gregoire is far from sanguine about it, and he's the one ultimately in charge.
As a dwarf noble it's arguably conceivable that you could fight your way out of the deep roads on your own, but eh. They don't even give you any fucking shoes when they throw you in there, how much chance do you have?
Of course any of those origins could be "different" in a way that caused them to make sense, but then you probably aren't at ostagar, don't meet the wardens, and it's an entirely different game.
Well, the original question was why you can't tell Duncan to fuck off and not join. Because of the conceit of the game, you obviously have to join. The question is options:
1) Only have the dialog options that say you want to join, then join
2) Also have a dialog in which case you tell him to fuck off, and he forces you to join anyways.
It's not like mages can't paralyze or keep people in a force bubble or anything. Story wise, you'd just show up to Ostegar, covered in blood, radiating bad motherfucker rays. Duncan would notice how awesome you are, have a mage paralyze you, and force some blood down your throat. It's not so tough.
Dwarf origin - Survive, evade, resist, escape, pop up in a tunnel in Ostegar
City Elf - You've already killed a lot of people, just kill some more and get out of there. Escape to Ostegar
Dalish Elf - dArKsPaWn cAlLs yOu
City Noble - Go visit brother, demand action from the king
Mage - Escape with Jowan or get deployed to Ostegar
And again, with the exception of the human noble story, you get there and they're all "who the fuck are you?" And either kill you or chase you away. Unless duncan just conscripts you anyway, and then what's the point really?
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
They should just make a "Roadie" Origin for the people who don't want Alistair to be the only Grey Warden.
You're a Roadie. Invisible. Helping the true Rockstar from the shadows. And when your job is done,you slip back into the shadows, as if you'd never been there.
Posts
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
no. We don't ever seem them just go "over the edge." You have a bunch of opportunities to goad them, too, and they won't just attack you. Despite all the talk of how savage they are they're quite obviously capable of restraint and higher reasoning.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
If anything
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
besides which, in at least half of the possible dialogue options it's zathrian who throws the first punch in that fight
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
What did you play?
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Okay, one side is good. But you're trying to justify murdering innocent people because they follow someone's that's a big jerk when they have no idea how big a jerk he is.
B refers to the first encounter, A refers to the second. And as has been said, Swiftrunner wanted to kill all your asses until the Lady intervened in the third and final encounter.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
What about the first time you meet him:
I know I said that.
And then you said it never happened! But now you're saying it does!
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Not... really? You only need one warden and you're already always stuck with one. Just instead of doing the task because its your duty as a Warden (and if you were an unwillingly conscripted Warden, your "duty" is rather forced anyway), you're helping the inept Alister do it for your own purposes (like every other member in the group). There are surprisingly few scenes and dialogue things that would even have to be dramatically altered, looking back.
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
But how would you avoid becoming a Grey Warden through your origin and through Ostagar. Duncan wanted you. A lot. You have no real power to avoid the Right of Conscription. Were you to run, you wouldn't want to end up where he is again because then you'd just get recruited anyway.
you mean the part where she... reasons with him?
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I literally just addressed that. Why do I even type these things
This is why I say that his capacity for restraint is limited to the point of near non-existence. The one time he shows it outside the Lady's presence he's merely unwilling to kill you directly.
When only a magical spirit can calm you with her aura of magical tranquility, you're kinda savage. All this has nothing to do with whether the werewolves deserve death mind you, I'm only saying that their regaining of their humanity is tenuous at best.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I think that's the only origin where that really happens, though.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
But... that's incredibly stupid.
Being a Grey Warden is the entire point of the game. Going around and gathering an army to fight the blight and finally killing the Archdemon is just what Wardens do. The treaties oblige the various factions to help the Grey Wardens. I guess it's not absolutely necessary that the main character is a Grey Warden, but it makes the most sense from a gameplay/story perspective.
Imagine if you go to the dwarves and say "this treaty obliges you to help the Wardens. I'm not a Warden, but this guy I left back at camp totally is. Trust me."
If you're not a Warden, they may as well retitle the game Dragon Age: Alistair's Quest because it's not even about you anymore. It's about him. He's gathering the armies, he's leading them when they're gathered, and you're just another secondary companion.
In the mage one
Dwarf and Elf could be troublesome, but with less plotjacking (like at the end of the castless), something could have been worked out. In city elf origin
Edit: @Behemoth: Or its still about you, unwillingly getting caught up in events and having to shepard a completely useless Gray Warden around because otherwise he would just sit around cutting himself and moaning about Duncan. This is exactly the same in function as the current game when
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
And considering the amount of murder you do in some of the origins, I don't think that being trapped in "certain death" is that dangerous. You could always just kill them and run off.
Dalish elf is a little hard though, I'll give you that.
You get slaughtered with the rest of the army!
Game over.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
In the dalish origin
In the city elf origin the guards would almost certainly kill you.
In the mage origin you're either going to get hunted down by the templars (they have your phylactery after all), or left in the mage tower to whatever fate you get for helping a blood mage out. Granted it was at Irving's request but gregoire is far from sanguine about it, and he's the one ultimately in charge.
As a dwarf noble it's arguably conceivable that you could fight your way out of the deep roads on your own, but eh. They don't even give you any fucking shoes when they throw you in there, how much chance do you have?
Of course any of those origins could be "different" in a way that caused them to make sense, but then you probably aren't at ostagar, don't meet the wardens, and it's an entirely different game.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
On another note, I'm halfway through a game where I tell nobody whatsoever my name. I don't expect to be rewarded for this, but if there is an easter egg related to it, that would be awesome.
You're a Roadie. Invisible. Helping the true Rockstar from the shadows. And when your job is done,you slip back into the shadows, as if you'd never been there.
But the whole fucking point of the game is the same as the sworn duty of the Grey Wardens! And if you're so opposed to being a Warden, why do you want to help them? Why not just fuck off to Orlais or Antiva and leave Fereldan to it's fate?
It would be like a game about fighting fire where you aren't a firefighter, but a guy who follows firefighters around giving them help. It's just stupid.
At that point you're no longer even playing the main character in the story. You're literally adventuring around as a sidekick. Which is fine, you pick up plenty of sidekicks in the game, it just doesn't seem that sensible to make the player into one.
ed: I guess klyka really did a better job of making this point
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
AS.
A.
ROADIE.
Well, the original question was why you can't tell Duncan to fuck off and not join. Because of the conceit of the game, you obviously have to join. The question is options:
1) Only have the dialog options that say you want to join, then join
2) Also have a dialog in which case you tell him to fuck off, and he forces you to join anyways.
It's not like mages can't paralyze or keep people in a force bubble or anything. Story wise, you'd just show up to Ostegar, covered in blood, radiating bad motherfucker rays. Duncan would notice how awesome you are, have a mage paralyze you, and force some blood down your throat. It's not so tough.
City Elf - You've already killed a lot of people, just kill some more and get out of there. Escape to Ostegar
Dalish Elf - dArKsPaWn cAlLs yOu
City Noble - Go visit brother, demand action from the king
Mage - Escape with Jowan or get deployed to Ostegar
And again, with the exception of the human noble story, you get there and they're all "who the fuck are you?" And either kill you or chase you away. Unless duncan just conscripts you anyway, and then what's the point really?
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
*weeps a single black tear*