I had a one time ability to nuke someone's ratings or give them a huge boost, but never used it before getting offed.
But seriously, 12 mafia PLUS neutrals? It's no surprise this is over so quick.
There weren't any true seers, and the vigs were people like you who had one time boost/degrade abilities.
I will agree that the mafia was made overpowered, especially considering how volatile the lime votes could be. Like I said, 10 mafia and an influence power of -2 would have been more balanced. But still, it was up to the village to put together the pieces to thwart the mafia . The biggest piece was the lime vote. The mafia would of course want to support each other to get to the headliners. That was their goal, after all. There should have been quite a few paths along the lines of the ratings vote and headliners to follow to slow the Turtle advance, but the village as a whole never seemed to pay much attention to it. I will admit that in the 12-person, -3 factor mafia version that was used in the game, the village would have a very difficult time even following a proper strategy line. Without that strategy, the village had no chance, and it wouldn't have mattered if the mafia's power was decreased.
I mean... it would have been freaking epic to out half the mafia day 1 in the thread, but working with them was the smarter patch for achieving my win condition.
Who did you know other than samurai and Advent? How did you find out too?
romanqwerty on
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Because it confused us all to hell even though he kept missing us.
No strategy. Playing this game from my phone I knew I wasn't going to get any show posts or lime votes so I thought I'd fuck with Delmain because I knew he'd grudged me. After that it was fun enough to call kills, especially when it was apparent there were no actual vigs in the game.
I would've actually posted analysis, a lime vote, and used my powers on Day 3 (two point ratings boost to target) but with the bandwagon of doom going after I'd specifically said how dumb that was I 1) didn't have anyone who I felt reasonably certain to be good and 2) Didn't think anyone would bother to use it. Blarney had a good point about lime vote analysis, but I already felt like there was barely any redvote analysis.
Today, looking at the thread I thought, "Well it's a Main. It takes longer for the village to get on track. They've got time."
Whoops!
Apologies to Delmain for fucking with him, though I already sent him a pm.
Also, if Winky had effectively implemented his plan and other networks had followed suit, we would have had a much harder time of it. That the main reason I tried to be so quick to crush his idea.
I think giving people an endorsement vote -> win condition in a game almost requiring flavor to get those votes is not the best idea. I mean, it's awesome to get the flavor and there were some amazing posts, but from a pure game design perspective tying that in with the mafia win condition possibly not the best idea. As things are naturally going to be scattered based on taste and the mafia should be highly motivated to do awesome (and are networked so could pitch ideas to each other/organize votes to some degree).
Still: awesome game because it brought out a lot of creativity, though I couldn't figure out how good Sun Tzu jokes for Day 3: thus the writer's strike.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I think giving people an endorsement vote -> win condition in a game almost requiring flavor to get those votes is not the best idea. I mean, it's awesome to get the flavor and there were some amazing posts, but from a pure game design perspective tying that in with the mafia win condition possibly not the best idea. As things are naturally going to be scattered based on taste and the mafia should be highly motivated to do awesome (and are networked so could pitch ideas to each other/organize votes to some degree).
Still: awesome game because it brought out a lot of creativity, though I couldn't figure out how good Sun Tzu jokes for Day 3: thus the writer's strike.
Well, that should have been an indicator as well! Is the motivation for creating a big program for earning special rewards at the end of the game? Or is it to secure the late night industry for Turtle Entertainment?
I certainly didn't expect this kind of level of creativity. But Infidel created the spark, fanned the flames to bring out everybody's campaigning skills, and it had a drastic effect on the game flow. I'm repeating myself again, but this game really surprised me in terms of how well the theme caught on with everyone. Mechanically, it was uneven. But still, not bad for 2.5 hours worth of initial planning and 2 days of ironing out?
Only reason I asked is because that post you made to CoreGoon on night 2 about changing his vote was just so wonky.
It was Advent 2, Ringo 999, the only reason I could think of for anyone to be scared of that outcome is if Advent was red and I got vigged for trickle down shennanigans
God I love vote trickling kills. Why haven't I been mafia yet?
I think giving people an endorsement vote -> win condition in a game almost requiring flavor to get those votes is not the best idea. I mean, it's awesome to get the flavor and there were some amazing posts, but from a pure game design perspective tying that in with the mafia win condition possibly not the best idea. As things are naturally going to be scattered based on taste and the mafia should be highly motivated to do awesome (and are networked so could pitch ideas to each other/organize votes to some degree).
Still: awesome game because it brought out a lot of creativity, though I couldn't figure out how good Sun Tzu jokes for Day 3: thus the writer's strike.
Well, that should have been an indicator as well! Is the motivation for creating a big program for earning special rewards at the end of the game? Or is it to secure the late night industry for Turtle Entertainment?
I certainly didn't expect this kind of level of creativity. But Infidel created the spark, fanned the flames to bring out everybody's campaigning skills, and it had a drastic effect on the game flow. I'm repeating myself again, but this game really surprised me in terms of how well the theme caught on with everyone. Mechanically, it was uneven. But still, not bad for 2.5 hours worth of initial planning and 2 days of ironing out?
Oh no, not bad at all, considering it was basically thrown together.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I mean... it would have been freaking epic to out half the mafia day 1 in the thread, but working with them was the smarter patch for achieving my win condition.
Who did you know other than samurai and Advent? How did you find out too?
Samurai has a Tell when he's mafia; I picked it up and offered an alliance. After that it was a combo of asking the right questions and putting 2+2 together (more obvious as the days went on watching the green votes).
But really, one of the other problems with game balance in the game is that it made much more sense for us neutrals to side with the mafia over the village. It's not just the fact that they come pre-networked. It's the fact here that you can't do anything about a mafia kill if you piss them off while they can help get the vote off of you if working against the village.
V_W, I agree. Once you knew a few of us, you could have probably figured out a whole lot more. We all had a -3 influence so we we're only really green voting ourselves. In fact, i'm surprised the village didn't try to look at the green vote a little more.
Well, I was looking at the green vote a bit, but I didn't know that there were so bloody many of you. Which changes your expectations of behavior, given that you could brazenly prop each other up and have multiple bandwagons hit you without doing too much damage.
I mean, badguys get knocked off with the vote on days 1 and 2, and the mafia wins on day 5?
I was thinking that there were 8 mafia, which would have been a lot more reasonable given the number of neutrals as well.
TehSloth
Adventfalls (though after robos showing up mafia I would have trusted him a good deal more)
Samurai
romanqwerty
I won't count Lagnar since I only suspected him due to Gumpy's posts.
I would have been pushing for an advent bandwagon day 2 except for the whole dying thing. Admittedly after day 2 I would have trusted the guy.
As I spent more and more time watching the thread it seemed incredibly obvious that the mafia had the fatal flaw of not having any private influence boosting.
Well, I was looking at the green vote a bit, but I didn't know that there were so bloody many of you. Which changes your expectations of behavior, given that you could brazenly prop each other up and have multiple bandwagons hit you without doing too much damage.
I mean, badguys get knocked off with the vote on days 1 and 2, and the mafia wins on day 5?
I was thinking that there were 8 mafia, which would have been a lot more reasonable given the number of neutrals as well.
I'll apologize again for the lack of balance, then. I didn't really have the time to figure out the numbers in detail before the game began, and it was almost immediately evident to me before the end of the first day that things were not going to go well at all. Of course, there really wasn't much to do once the game was in motion. Kind of unfortunate, but that's just the way things turned out.
I'd say if you were going to nerf the mafia's private influence, you should also give the mafia a second kill. I don't think the mafia were that terribly unbalanced with such a crippling flaw. I originally thought to suggest +/- 2 influence, but I'm fairly sure that would have resulted in a day 1 win if used correctly.
Every night there will be a ratings war. Ratings will naturally decay by a certain percentage, and all influences over them will then take place. The top rated host of each network will be revealed in the narration and be that network's headliner. The bottom rated host of each network will be fired and eliminated from play, so do your best!
You see, workin' with your network as a villager will let you be aware if things have altered who in your network should be eliminated that night. I won't be surprised if the mafia's abilities are solely relatin' to alterin' the mentioned three kills, but we'll have to see tonight if there's other ways of firin' people, I suppose.
Rawkking is right on for the reasoning for making the influence factor for mafia members all negative. By making the mafia unable to support each other secretly, it would create a reliance on village support to get to the top, or otherwise require the mafia to boldly use the lime rating vote on each other. As seen in the game, they were able to do both of these things rather well.
While I'm here, I might as well provide some other extra materials that were left on the cutting room floor. If there were enough people (like over 70) there would've been a fifth network in play, MFIA.
The network logos were based somewhat on the major US broadcast networks: NBC--> COCK, ABC --> WANG, CBS --> ODAM, FOX --> FALA, and The CW --> MFIA.
There was also a mason-type role that did not make it into the final game. Of course, the masons would have special victory conditions to outdo the other members of the group - the idea stemmed from the Baldwin brothers.
MrBlarney on
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
If you read our proboards I'm pretty sure I asked them to use our kill on you the night we used all our minus ratings on Enlightenedbum, but T_R made a big show of having high ratings+ in the thread and they decided to kill him off instead. :P
Kilnaga on
"The psychedelic mind is a higher dimensional mind, it is not fit for three dimensional space time."
- Terence McKenna
I mean... it would have been freaking epic to out half the mafia day 1 in the thread, but working with them was the smarter patch for achieving my win condition.
Who did you know other than samurai and Advent? How did you find out too?
Samurai has a Tell when he's mafia; I picked it up and offered an alliance. After that it was a combo of asking the right questions and putting 2+2 together (more obvious as the days went on watching the green votes).
But really, one of the other problems with game balance in the game is that it made much more sense for us neutrals to side with the mafia over the village. It's not just the fact that they come pre-networked. It's the fact here that you can't do anything about a mafia kill if you piss them off while they can help get the vote off of you if working against the village.
Go and tell everyone that when I'm quiet in thread and act "normal" that I'm really evil....
Ya'll didn't hear that.
I want to grudge AF for killing one of our own, but inactive mafia is worst then a teamkiller and it did win us this game. I didn't do much for the mafia but I did find out there were neutrals here before everyone else (except the neutrals of course).
It was a great game and it felt good to be EVIL again!!!
Today, looking at the thread I thought, "Well it's a Main. It takes longer for the village to get on track. They've got time."
Whoops!
This is why the village lost. Things could have gone sooooo horrible for the mafia.
The village literally handed them the victory because that's the mechanic, and people seemed to overlook the actual win condition which was intentionally different than a standard main. No "oh if I'm still alive come day 7 I'll start paying attention and win this wooo!"
The lack of rating boosts for the mafia meant they had to leave a trail of lime votes and campaigning. Look at the change in the thread after three mafia died, you'll see the mafia changing things up.
Every single mafia was correctly fingered by another in conversation (especially saw a lot from Ahava who had good instincts at first) so it was frustrating to see not much acting on them. The downraters also acted well at first too I believe.
People fell for the throw-a-mafia-under-the-bus tactic so you guys were doomed, the game ending is representative of inevitable mafia win. I expected at least a little more pushing about it considering that the mafia sacrificed was entirely inactive.
I loved the posts people made for this, I think everyone was entertained by that alone.
I don't see as just randomizing, and randomizing alone would have help TOO much. We would be in all the networks and know who is getting picked, so its not like the "randomness" would trip us up. Then we'd hit a day or two where the random people being put to headlining position would have been one or more of us, and have one or more of us with 2nd~ ratings on other networks. We could have easily used our kill on the "random" chosen for one network, and dump the negative ratings powers on another to boost our guys to the top. Randoming and ending up giving us influence still would have got the village killed, just perhaps a bit slower.
Kilnaga on
"The psychedelic mind is a higher dimensional mind, it is not fit for three dimensional space time."
- Terence McKenna
I mean... it would have been freaking epic to out half the mafia day 1 in the thread, but working with them was the smarter patch for achieving my win condition.
Who did you know other than samurai and Advent? How did you find out too?
Samurai has a Tell when he's mafia; I picked it up and offered an alliance. After that it was a combo of asking the right questions and putting 2+2 together (more obvious as the days went on watching the green votes).
But really, one of the other problems with game balance in the game is that it made much more sense for us neutrals to side with the mafia over the village. It's not just the fact that they come pre-networked. It's the fact here that you can't do anything about a mafia kill if you piss them off while they can help get the vote off of you if working against the village.
Go and tell everyone that when I'm quiet in thread and act "normal" that I'm really evil....
Ya'll didn't hear that.
I want to grudge AF for killing one of our own, but inactive mafia is worst then a teamkiller and it did win us this game. I didn't do much for the mafia but I did find out there were neutrals here before everyone else (except the neutrals of course).
It was a great game and it felt good to be EVIL again!!!
Yeah the whole robos kill thing is what made me trust AF in the first place. I pretty much guessed that roman was mafia (this was after I had converted him) but I figured "Wow what are the chances I would convert two mafia....and besides AF did manage to get a mafia killed"
I have mixed feelings on this game because it's my first time being neutral. I wasn't sure if I should help the village or the mafia or just say "Screw everyone" and go for my win condition.
In the end I tried to help the village by trying to get people voted out but my conversions were entirely for my own benefit. Although it does hearten me that me switching out advent and roman may have delayed the mafia from winning even earlier. I was soft networked with AF which most certainly influenced who I voted for (AF can atest to my suspicions about kilnaga)
And as I said before AF,
Well played.
Overall I had fun and was able to pull off a win, I'm just sorry I wasn't able to help the village as well
*Edit*
Also seriously screw all you for killing off Pigeon. I wanted to see the adventures of Delphinidaes the knight.
Delphinidaes on
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
You fools, you should've listened to my randomization plan all along! Look what ended up happening!
Well yeah, after romanqwerty started getting more green votes things for no reason after headlining once things should have seemed up.
Bah, I apparently didn't vocalize it enough (and I didn't vocalize it at all in the main thread, as I wasn't entirely sure about it and wanted village consensus on it) but I wanted whoever was my successor to run the COCK network survivor style.
Everyday, vote someone out of the voting circle jerk and watch their ratings plunge to the bottom and be eliminated as we all shun them. Watch them flail and cry, and learn how their death spiral works. We would likely soon learn either that the mafia had no private influence boosters or that the mafia had negative influence powers, or both. Well, we did learn that the mafia had negative influence abilities from my death, considering I had more green votes than TehSloth and a few other COCK members.
Regardless, I have learned many things from this game and am thus fairly content.
Though the early mafia victory and my busy RL schedule prevented me from mimicking Dac Vin as my ghost post
have I done a good enough job at that with this post-game commentary?
Posts
There weren't any true seers, and the vigs were people like you who had one time boost/degrade abilities.
I will agree that the mafia was made overpowered, especially considering how volatile the lime votes could be. Like I said, 10 mafia and an influence power of -2 would have been more balanced. But still, it was up to the village to put together the pieces to thwart the mafia . The biggest piece was the lime vote. The mafia would of course want to support each other to get to the headliners. That was their goal, after all. There should have been quite a few paths along the lines of the ratings vote and headliners to follow to slow the Turtle advance, but the village as a whole never seemed to pay much attention to it. I will admit that in the 12-person, -3 factor mafia version that was used in the game, the village would have a very difficult time even following a proper strategy line. Without that strategy, the village had no chance, and it wouldn't have mattered if the mafia's power was decreased.
Who did you know other than samurai and Advent? How did you find out too?
No strategy. Playing this game from my phone I knew I wasn't going to get any show posts or lime votes so I thought I'd fuck with Delmain because I knew he'd grudged me. After that it was fun enough to call kills, especially when it was apparent there were no actual vigs in the game.
I would've actually posted analysis, a lime vote, and used my powers on Day 3 (two point ratings boost to target) but with the bandwagon of doom going after I'd specifically said how dumb that was I 1) didn't have anyone who I felt reasonably certain to be good and 2) Didn't think anyone would bother to use it. Blarney had a good point about lime vote analysis, but I already felt like there was barely any redvote analysis.
Today, looking at the thread I thought, "Well it's a Main. It takes longer for the village to get on track. They've got time."
Whoops!
Apologies to Delmain for fucking with him, though I already sent him a pm.
Still: awesome game because it brought out a lot of creativity, though I couldn't figure out how good Sun Tzu jokes for Day 3: thus the writer's strike.
Well, that should have been an indicator as well! Is the motivation for creating a big program for earning special rewards at the end of the game? Or is it to secure the late night industry for Turtle Entertainment?
I certainly didn't expect this kind of level of creativity. But Infidel created the spark, fanned the flames to bring out everybody's campaigning skills, and it had a drastic effect on the game flow. I'm repeating myself again, but this game really surprised me in terms of how well the theme caught on with everyone. Mechanically, it was uneven. But still, not bad for 2.5 hours worth of initial planning and 2 days of ironing out?
- Terence McKenna
Only reason I asked is because that post you made to CoreGoon on night 2 about changing his vote was just so wonky.
It was Advent 2, Ringo 999, the only reason I could think of for anyone to be scared of that outcome is if Advent was red and I got vigged for trickle down shennanigans
God I love vote trickling kills. Why haven't I been mafia yet?
Oh no, not bad at all, considering it was basically thrown together.
Samurai has a Tell when he's mafia; I picked it up and offered an alliance. After that it was a combo of asking the right questions and putting 2+2 together (more obvious as the days went on watching the green votes).
But really, one of the other problems with game balance in the game is that it made much more sense for us neutrals to side with the mafia over the village. It's not just the fact that they come pre-networked. It's the fact here that you can't do anything about a mafia kill if you piss them off while they can help get the vote off of you if working against the village.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I mean, badguys get knocked off with the vote on days 1 and 2, and the mafia wins on day 5?
I was thinking that there were 8 mafia, which would have been a lot more reasonable given the number of neutrals as well.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Adventfalls (though after robos showing up mafia I would have trusted him a good deal more)
Samurai
romanqwerty
I won't count Lagnar since I only suspected him due to Gumpy's posts.
I would have been pushing for an advent bandwagon day 2 except for the whole dying thing. Admittedly after day 2 I would have trusted the guy.
As I spent more and more time watching the thread it seemed incredibly obvious that the mafia had the fatal flaw of not having any private influence boosting.
Too bad none of you noticed!
Except neutrals.
I'll apologize again for the lack of balance, then. I didn't really have the time to figure out the numbers in detail before the game began, and it was almost immediately evident to me before the end of the first day that things were not going to go well at all. Of course, there really wasn't much to do once the game was in motion. Kind of unfortunate, but that's just the way things turned out.
guys
guys
guys
why didn't you listen to lovable Obbi
That's why we offed Burnage. >_>
- Terence McKenna
While I'm here, I might as well provide some other extra materials that were left on the cutting room floor. If there were enough people (like over 70) there would've been a fifth network in play, MFIA.
The network logos were based somewhat on the major US broadcast networks: NBC--> COCK, ABC --> WANG, CBS --> ODAM, FOX --> FALA, and The CW --> MFIA.
There was also a mason-type role that did not make it into the final game. Of course, the masons would have special victory conditions to outdo the other members of the group - the idea stemmed from the Baldwin brothers.
At least I defended my network till the end }:
If you read our proboards I'm pretty sure I asked them to use our kill on you the night we used all our minus ratings on Enlightenedbum, but T_R made a big show of having high ratings+ in the thread and they decided to kill him off instead. :P
- Terence McKenna
Damn it, wanted to make more shows. Great game infy & blarney, thanks for hosting and props to all the other hosts.
Sidenote, people, if I'm not an outed evil and sloth ever votes for me, he's probably evil. Juuuuuust sayin.
I will end you.
Go and tell everyone that when I'm quiet in thread and act "normal" that I'm really evil....
Ya'll didn't hear that.
I want to grudge AF for killing one of our own, but inactive mafia is worst then a teamkiller and it did win us this game. I didn't do much for the mafia but I did find out there were neutrals here before everyone else (except the neutrals of course).
It was a great game and it felt good to be EVIL again!!!
This is why the village lost. Things could have gone sooooo horrible for the mafia.
The village literally handed them the victory because that's the mechanic, and people seemed to overlook the actual win condition which was intentionally different than a standard main. No "oh if I'm still alive come day 7 I'll start paying attention and win this wooo!"
The lack of rating boosts for the mafia meant they had to leave a trail of lime votes and campaigning. Look at the change in the thread after three mafia died, you'll see the mafia changing things up.
Every single mafia was correctly fingered by another in conversation (especially saw a lot from Ahava who had good instincts at first) so it was frustrating to see not much acting on them. The downraters also acted well at first too I believe.
People fell for the throw-a-mafia-under-the-bus tactic so you guys were doomed, the game ending is representative of inevitable mafia win. I expected at least a little more pushing about it considering that the mafia sacrificed was entirely inactive.
I loved the posts people made for this, I think everyone was entertained by that alone.
We're all choir boys at best!!!
- Terence McKenna
Should not have let up.
But noooooooooo
Sorry but I'm lovable. You're... metallic. It's hard to love a machine. Most of the time.
Mafia: OH HEY LET'S VOTE FOR PIGEON SUCH QUALITY
Pigeon: yaaaaaaaay I'm popular
Mafia: OH FUCK PIGEON HAS SO MANY VOTES HOW DID THAT HAPPEN KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT
Pigeon: (splat)
...what the fuck :x
Yeah the whole robos kill thing is what made me trust AF in the first place. I pretty much guessed that roman was mafia (this was after I had converted him) but I figured "Wow what are the chances I would convert two mafia....and besides AF did manage to get a mafia killed"
I have mixed feelings on this game because it's my first time being neutral. I wasn't sure if I should help the village or the mafia or just say "Screw everyone" and go for my win condition.
In the end I tried to help the village by trying to get people voted out but my conversions were entirely for my own benefit. Although it does hearten me that me switching out advent and roman may have delayed the mafia from winning even earlier. I was soft networked with AF which most certainly influenced who I voted for (AF can atest to my suspicions about kilnaga)
And as I said before AF,
Well played.
Overall I had fun and was able to pull off a win, I'm just sorry I wasn't able to help the village as well
*Edit*
Also seriously screw all you for killing off Pigeon. I wanted to see the adventures of Delphinidaes the knight.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Well yeah, after romanqwerty started getting more green votes things for no reason after headlining once things should have seemed up.
Bah, I apparently didn't vocalize it enough (and I didn't vocalize it at all in the main thread, as I wasn't entirely sure about it and wanted village consensus on it) but I wanted whoever was my successor to run the COCK network survivor style.
Everyday, vote someone out of the voting circle jerk and watch their ratings plunge to the bottom and be eliminated as we all shun them. Watch them flail and cry, and learn how their death spiral works. We would likely soon learn either that the mafia had no private influence boosters or that the mafia had negative influence powers, or both. Well, we did learn that the mafia had negative influence abilities from my death, considering I had more green votes than TehSloth and a few other COCK members.
Regardless, I have learned many things from this game and am thus fairly content.
Though the early mafia victory and my busy RL schedule prevented me from mimicking Dac Vin as my ghost post