Well, she has a stripper-esque name, Chilly. So I'm sort of worried. (I mean, ok, I have a stripper name but that's different) And she described herself as fun. If I had to describe myself, it would be 'painfully boring'.
Yeah Coleman living near work is the bestest. Rolling out of bed, crawling out the door. Going home for lunch. Do it man.
MustangArbiter of Unpopular OpinionsRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
Speaking of Art snootyism. I watched this art competition show a couple of months back (which I thought i'd like, cause I like art) and it was full of art hacks and art hack judges. The contest was to win a place in a studio with some dickhead who thought he was the lord and god of all things conceptual (who refused to appear on the actual show because it was below his genius, but was genius enough to tack a cut from the shows earnings no doubt). At one point they were tasked to do a life sketch and I swear not one of them could draw better than anyone here on the AC, not even remotely close. One would've thought that the best young conceptual artists in Britain would have some inclination on how to handle a pencil. However filming someone on a swing for 3 hours? No fucking worries there. I know some people here see value in conceptual art, but to me it seems like a big fucking joke that no-one gets the punchline too.
Speaking of conceptual art being bullshit, my buddy sent me this tonight (he actually has a degree in fine art...from a school that was primarily focused on conceptual art).
does anyone know anyone who is going/has gone to Emily Carr?
Yeah, they're all snooty bitches paying way too much to get to be snooty holier than thou bitches. Seriously, it's a huge waste of money. My new co-worker went there and we are constantly laughing about it. It's all fine arts. Do you like talking about the emotion of rocks? Do you want to see someone fall over, then the class has to discuss the meaning of it for half an hour? That is Emily Carr.
this is actually what my opinion was
a friend of mine is going and is trying to convince me how awesome it is
I really don't get shitting all over the contemporary art world. I've seen so many people throw around the word "conceptual" like it exclusively means "Bullshit" but you can think critically about the concept of your work without abandoning the technique, the aesthetics, or whatever the hell else you're mad about.
I mean, sure, I had a class where we talked for 15 minutes about a guy who put glue on a canvas too pull up all the dirt and hair off his dorm room floor and put that up on a wall, and we talked about my illustration for maybe five. Between the dumb shit though, I absorbed some really interesting techniques, thought processes, textures, colors and experiences. It seems like artists aren't allowed to do anything but make "cool' or 'pretty" or "technically sound" work without being snooty.
Yeah, even the more conceptual fine arts classes I did actually had some really good techniques and everything else, I really enjoyed it, even if I had to roll my eyes at some of the things my classmates did. I had one class that was painfully frustrating because it was drawing, and I wanted to learn how to draw, and the teacher wanted me to do collages and... other shit instead. There was one person who smashed up car doors etc etc and got amazing marks when he called it the death of the american dream and I swear to god I wanted to hrrrk. We didn't even do any figure drawing, and when I tried to work drawing into my assignments in the critiques she marked me down for it. Drawing I and drawing III had actual, yknow, drawing, but drawing II was.. Special? Fuck I am still angry about that and complained afterwords.
Ranting over, it really depends on your teachers and what you are willing to get out of it! There is a lot of good colour theory and composition and interesting thoughtful stuff, and I especially appreciate badass innovative sculptures. But Emily Carr as a school generally has a very poor attitude and is overly expensive. Everyone I know who currently goes there is obnoxious and better than thou, and hilariously, everyone I know who is 5 years+ graduated just laughs about it and tells me what a waste of time it was.
I was a bit sad when I realised the course I am in is really into conceptual stuff, but I stuck with it and now I am finding it pretty useful in terms of learning processes and learning how to document your work and that sort of stuff. I think I have a similar drawing class to Kochikens (we're doing collage at the moment which is really funny, but I'm annoyed we only got to do three hours of perspective work).
I've probably learned more technical stuff from reading the AC than I have at school so far, but I still think the conceptual stuff is worth doing!
I think what I am trying to say is I don't really understand why cakemikz is so down on conceptual art
I think what I am trying to say is I don't really understand why cakemikz is so down on conceptual art
Because it doesn't teach people shit despite what you guys claim, or certainly not enough to justify the four goddamn years you spend on it. The guy who linked me that video earlier is practically heartbroken over the education he received, and he feels like he has to practically start over to do what he wants to do.
Bottom line, my friends in high school who wanted to be illustrators went to degree giving universities and came out with little to no skills, and my friends who went to Watts mostly came out as professional working illustrators. It's hard not to reflect on the system and think its a bunch of shit when it has hurt people I care about with it's stupidity. If there is any strong argument against the type of education I received I am it. I am about as close to a complete failure at my school as I have seen.
In the real world of conceptual art going to school for it is frowned upon, as it makes the concepts the product of a system and not of you. I think it's bullshit either way personally, but very few people who go to school and train in conceptual art actually make it, or even pursue it as a career. It's like trying to go to school to win the lottery.
Finding that one or two classes were sort of ok at the end of your education is well, honestly...sad.
That's cool, it sounds like your experience with the education aspect has been pretty messed up; I'm only doing a one-year hell cheap course so I don't feel like I'm wasting my time or money (otherwise I'd get out of it).
Maybe more of a distinction should be made between illustrative arts (is that what you'd call it?) and conceptual art in terms of courses/degrees?
Also I guess I'm cheating cause I don't want to do art for a living, so I don't feel as concerned about getting the best education possible.
I don't have a problem with conceptual art people doing conceptual art shit, who am I to tell them what to do. What I have a problem with conceptual art being confused with, or in many cases, dominating to a large degree, traditional art training/skills.
Going into an art school trying to learn traditional skills and getting nothing but conceptual art classes is like going to an engineering school, and being taught entirely by English teachers covering Jules Verne and other sci-fi novels. Sci-fi writing, and conceptual art, is all about ideas. Come up with something original, be creative, don't do what's been done before! Come up with ideas, ideas, ideas. If your audience buys it, it's right! It's all about what works in its own context, be it the context of the contemporary art community or the context of a sci-fi reader audience.
Traditional art and engineering are not about coming up with original broad ideas, or at least it's a relatively small part of the work in general- it's about executing ideas in an everyday context, in a way that can be understood. It's about breaking apart an idea and figuring out how it will work in the context of the reality of the normal person on the street. Will this thing break when it's going around at 7000rpm, is this in perspective, will this cause an explosion, does this muscle really insert here- it's dealing with these little things, the little niggly sub-ideas to the whole that is what determines the ultimate success of the whole. You can have the greatest and most ambitious ideas in the world, but at the end of the day, in the context of aerospace engineering or automotive engineering or traditional fine art or illustration- if something doesn't work, it doesn't work, because reality or the broad audience won't tolerate it otherwise. And if you don't know how something works, or is supposed to work, or you can't figure out if something is going to work or not- it means you haven't acquired the skills to do your chosen job properly. You can't just say what a good idea it would be if a rocketship could go the speed of light- you have to do it. You can't draw a crude front door with a vagina for a mail slot and say it's about feminism versus domesticism (is this even a word, I'm so bad at coming up with this kind of crap), the guy on the street has to see it and know what they're looking at and get that idea immediately and not just write it off as just some "weird shit".
You can be a great engineer and never come up with a single truly original big idea, and you can be a great sci-fi writer and still have no clue how, say, a transistor works.
This is why I think you see a lot of backlash towards conceptual people: because people that want to acquire those traditional skills often find that they can't at their schools. These two, wildly different beasts, aimed at two entirely different purposes and contexts, are thrown together in many art schools as if they were the same thing, meaning both sides get poorly served. Don't get me wrong, there are crossovers, but the crossover is generally little more than that between engineering and science fiction writing; some, but it wouldn't be wise to make too much of it.
I don't even care if people want to try both, want to sit on the fence between the two, if that's what they really want, work twice as hard- but sadly, many times the students- and the faculty certainly isn't going to go out of their way to point this out- don't realize that fence exists, and get a muddied training that won't help them succeed at either. Not the position I'd prefer, coming out of a school I just spent 4 years of my life and however many tens of thousands of dollars on. Really, the issue is that everyone should be pissed off, and if they're not pissed off, they will be pissed off down the road when they realize how bad they got screwed.
If you're in an art school and you feel your class time could be better spent taking another class being taught something else, because it doesn't relate to your goals- well go and fucking do that instead of wasting your fucking time! What the fuck are you waiting for, Christmas? Art Santa isn't going to come down the fucking chimney and turn your newspaper collages and colored bead arrangements into finished character concept turnarounds with his magic sack of art training.
Speaking of conceptual art being bullshit, my buddy sent me this tonight (he actually has a degree in fine art...from a school that was primarily focused on conceptual art).
Haha, wow! I only watched 2 minutes before I realized that this is idiotic.
I like how he glosses over 300 years of aesthetic discussion by simply saying "they were all concerned with Beauty, and we aren't anymore."
No, sorry. Wrong.
Edit:
Bacon, it's absolutely hilarious and telling that even in the "art world" there is some sort of retarded dichotomy between practical and nonpractical. I mean, really, your analogy is between literature and engineering. Come on.
Hey Grenn, thanks for clearing that quote up earlier. Made more sense. Also, I love your sig banner.
EDIT: Oh man, your whole website is pretty slick!
Thanks dude!
I builded it myself - though the shop is taking longer than I thought it would...
and so this comment is on-topic: I did not go to school for anything. I dropped out of College. When I got my Graphic Design job, everyone else who applied for the role (and didn't get the job) had "qualifications".
Sometimes I like to roll around in the piles of cash I saved from not going to University. 8-)
Bacon, it's absolutely hilarious and telling that even in the "art world" there is some sort of retarded dichotomy between practical and nonpractical. I mean, really, your analogy is between literature and engineering. Come on.
That was not at all my point. The point was they require different skills, and therefore different training of those skills, because they're very different things, to a degree many people to do not acknowledge. I strained my utmost to not make it a value judgment, even if, in my personal opinion, most of the conceptual art I've seen has been total hogwash, and I have no interest in it whatsoever as an artist or viewer of art.
And fine, taught by literature teachers, happy now?
I hesitate to even respond to you CB, but I will say that it would be quite a video that covers the entire history of art in 60 minutes. But since you didn't watch the video and still decided to declare it idiotic I will cover the basics for you:
The goal of art has changed in modern culture. This is not necessarily a good thing, in fact it probably isn't.
I hesitate to even respond to you CB, but I will say that it would be quite a video that covers the entire history of art in 60 minutes. But since you didn't watch the video and still decided to declare it idiotic I will cover the basics for you:
The goal of art has changed in modern culture. This is not necessarily a good thing, in fact it probably isn't.
If you disagree with that...I think you are dumb.
I didn't watch it either, but so you're saying you, personally, are in the video?
That would be amazing, just 59 and a half minutes of standard tv documentary presentation, and then the last few seconds, some random dude waltzes into the final shot, "AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT...I THINK YOU'RE DUMB!" roll credits.
Mr. Cake, your post stuck a familiar chord in my mind, and while this video isn't necessarily about art, it is about our education system and how it might be failing.
Check it out, or don't I just wanted to share because the similarities were eerie to me.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Mr. Cake, your post stuck a familiar chord in my mind, and while this video isn't necessarily about art, it is about our education system and how it might be failing.
Check it out, or don't I just wanted to share because the similarities were eerie to me.
Posts
Yeah Coleman living near work is the bestest. Rolling out of bed, crawling out the door. Going home for lunch. Do it man.
But yeah I'm not moving for awhile anyways : (
edit: I mean, criticizing them for not being able to draw from life seems to be missing their point, even if their point is bullshit.
Good morning, magpie!
There are 6 parts, but here is the first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr6NlPDMSIM&feature=PlayList&p=86014E674E01D753&index=0
You know what is worse than art snootyism, art snootyism-snootyism.
artistjeffc.tumblr.com http://www.etsy.com/shop/artistjeffc
You there. I'm seeing Murder By Death tomorrow [today] in support of that album.
I just need to get through 1 exam and 2 classes first.....
this is actually what my opinion was
a friend of mine is going and is trying to convince me how awesome it is
definitely sounds like what i expected..
hmmm
I mean, sure, I had a class where we talked for 15 minutes about a guy who put glue on a canvas too pull up all the dirt and hair off his dorm room floor and put that up on a wall, and we talked about my illustration for maybe five. Between the dumb shit though, I absorbed some really interesting techniques, thought processes, textures, colors and experiences. It seems like artists aren't allowed to do anything but make "cool' or 'pretty" or "technically sound" work without being snooty.
Ranting over, it really depends on your teachers and what you are willing to get out of it! There is a lot of good colour theory and composition and interesting thoughtful stuff, and I especially appreciate badass innovative sculptures. But Emily Carr as a school generally has a very poor attitude and is overly expensive. Everyone I know who currently goes there is obnoxious and better than thou, and hilariously, everyone I know who is 5 years+ graduated just laughs about it and tells me what a waste of time it was.
artistjeffc.tumblr.com http://www.etsy.com/shop/artistjeffc
I've probably learned more technical stuff from reading the AC than I have at school so far, but I still think the conceptual stuff is worth doing!
I think what I am trying to say is I don't really understand why cakemikz is so down on conceptual art
Because it doesn't teach people shit despite what you guys claim, or certainly not enough to justify the four goddamn years you spend on it. The guy who linked me that video earlier is practically heartbroken over the education he received, and he feels like he has to practically start over to do what he wants to do.
Bottom line, my friends in high school who wanted to be illustrators went to degree giving universities and came out with little to no skills, and my friends who went to Watts mostly came out as professional working illustrators. It's hard not to reflect on the system and think its a bunch of shit when it has hurt people I care about with it's stupidity. If there is any strong argument against the type of education I received I am it. I am about as close to a complete failure at my school as I have seen.
In the real world of conceptual art going to school for it is frowned upon, as it makes the concepts the product of a system and not of you. I think it's bullshit either way personally, but very few people who go to school and train in conceptual art actually make it, or even pursue it as a career. It's like trying to go to school to win the lottery.
Finding that one or two classes were sort of ok at the end of your education is well, honestly...sad.
Maybe more of a distinction should be made between illustrative arts (is that what you'd call it?) and conceptual art in terms of courses/degrees?
Also I guess I'm cheating cause I don't want to do art for a living, so I don't feel as concerned about getting the best education possible.
EDIT: Oh man, your whole website is pretty slick!
Going into an art school trying to learn traditional skills and getting nothing but conceptual art classes is like going to an engineering school, and being taught entirely by English teachers covering Jules Verne and other sci-fi novels. Sci-fi writing, and conceptual art, is all about ideas. Come up with something original, be creative, don't do what's been done before! Come up with ideas, ideas, ideas. If your audience buys it, it's right! It's all about what works in its own context, be it the context of the contemporary art community or the context of a sci-fi reader audience.
Traditional art and engineering are not about coming up with original broad ideas, or at least it's a relatively small part of the work in general- it's about executing ideas in an everyday context, in a way that can be understood. It's about breaking apart an idea and figuring out how it will work in the context of the reality of the normal person on the street. Will this thing break when it's going around at 7000rpm, is this in perspective, will this cause an explosion, does this muscle really insert here- it's dealing with these little things, the little niggly sub-ideas to the whole that is what determines the ultimate success of the whole. You can have the greatest and most ambitious ideas in the world, but at the end of the day, in the context of aerospace engineering or automotive engineering or traditional fine art or illustration- if something doesn't work, it doesn't work, because reality or the broad audience won't tolerate it otherwise. And if you don't know how something works, or is supposed to work, or you can't figure out if something is going to work or not- it means you haven't acquired the skills to do your chosen job properly. You can't just say what a good idea it would be if a rocketship could go the speed of light- you have to do it. You can't draw a crude front door with a vagina for a mail slot and say it's about feminism versus domesticism (is this even a word, I'm so bad at coming up with this kind of crap), the guy on the street has to see it and know what they're looking at and get that idea immediately and not just write it off as just some "weird shit".
You can be a great engineer and never come up with a single truly original big idea, and you can be a great sci-fi writer and still have no clue how, say, a transistor works.
This is why I think you see a lot of backlash towards conceptual people: because people that want to acquire those traditional skills often find that they can't at their schools. These two, wildly different beasts, aimed at two entirely different purposes and contexts, are thrown together in many art schools as if they were the same thing, meaning both sides get poorly served. Don't get me wrong, there are crossovers, but the crossover is generally little more than that between engineering and science fiction writing; some, but it wouldn't be wise to make too much of it.
I don't even care if people want to try both, want to sit on the fence between the two, if that's what they really want, work twice as hard- but sadly, many times the students- and the faculty certainly isn't going to go out of their way to point this out- don't realize that fence exists, and get a muddied training that won't help them succeed at either. Not the position I'd prefer, coming out of a school I just spent 4 years of my life and however many tens of thousands of dollars on. Really, the issue is that everyone should be pissed off, and if they're not pissed off, they will be pissed off down the road when they realize how bad they got screwed.
If you're in an art school and you feel your class time could be better spent taking another class being taught something else, because it doesn't relate to your goals- well go and fucking do that instead of wasting your fucking time! What the fuck are you waiting for, Christmas? Art Santa isn't going to come down the fucking chimney and turn your newspaper collages and colored bead arrangements into finished character concept turnarounds with his magic sack of art training.
Twitter
e: but that was still an excellent Bacon post of the sort I have come to know and love.
Haha, wow! I only watched 2 minutes before I realized that this is idiotic.
I like how he glosses over 300 years of aesthetic discussion by simply saying "they were all concerned with Beauty, and we aren't anymore."
No, sorry. Wrong.
Edit:
Bacon, it's absolutely hilarious and telling that even in the "art world" there is some sort of retarded dichotomy between practical and nonpractical. I mean, really, your analogy is between literature and engineering. Come on.
Also Jules Verne was French.
Thanks dude!
I builded it myself - though the shop is taking longer than I thought it would...
and so this comment is on-topic: I did not go to school for anything. I dropped out of College. When I got my Graphic Design job, everyone else who applied for the role (and didn't get the job) had "qualifications".
Sometimes I like to roll around in the piles of cash I saved from not going to University. 8-)
That was not at all my point. The point was they require different skills, and therefore different training of those skills, because they're very different things, to a degree many people to do not acknowledge. I strained my utmost to not make it a value judgment, even if, in my personal opinion, most of the conceptual art I've seen has been total hogwash, and I have no interest in it whatsoever as an artist or viewer of art.
And fine, taught by literature teachers, happy now?
Twitter
The goal of art has changed in modern culture. This is not necessarily a good thing, in fact it probably isn't.
If you disagree with that...I think you are dumb.
I didn't watch it either, but so you're saying you, personally, are in the video?
That would be amazing, just 59 and a half minutes of standard tv documentary presentation, and then the last few seconds, some random dude waltzes into the final shot, "AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT...I THINK YOU'RE DUMB!" roll credits.
Twitter
Twitter
I wish I could go into more detail but I have to keep it quiet for the time being. Suffice to say, I am HUGELY excited!
Being involved in an animated music video for a major label artist? Yes please.
Check it out, or don't I just wanted to share because the similarities were eerie to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY
Imagine the apartment naked, that's supposed to help!
I'd punch you, but you're a bad enough driver that you'll end up taking care of yourself.