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Starcraft's "Harvest" of WH40k
Alecthar
Alan ShoreWe're not territorial about that sort of thing, are we?Registered User regular
Alan ShoreWe're not territorial about that sort of thing, are we?Registered User regular
After returning from a short computer outage, and catching up on my Penny Arcade, I came across this one-liner in the news post:
This, of course, refers to Starcraft II. To be honest, I'm not sure how much I disagree. The fact that the Marines of Starcraft are even called Marines is probably the influence of WH40k. The Zerg could be fairly clearly equated to the Tyranids, with the Protoss a good stand in for the Eldar.
However, Warhammer 40k is hardly original. It and it's medieval cousin have robbed Fantasy and Science Fiction blind. So, in the case of Starcraft, can you really ripoff a ripoff?
WH40k owes a colossal debt, first and foremost, to Robert Heinlein. If the man hadn't written Starship Troopers we'd be missing a whole Sci-Fi game sub-genre (the irony, in this case, is that Heinlein's best known work is less about the killing side of things, and more about the society the Troopers are a part of). The military sci-fi love of powered armor can, in my opinion, be fairly simply traced right back to here. A close reader of the book might have even found inspiration for the Eldar in the form of Starship Troopers' enigmatic and self-interested "Skinnies," willing to switch sides in order to guarantee themselves a future. The "Bugs" of Starship Troopers almost have to have played a role in imagining the Tyranids, and probably even in some of the behavior of the Orks.
And, honestly, concepts like the Eldar, Necrons, Orks, and Chaos are essentially ideas from our own culture (Elves, Zombies, Orcs, Devil Worshippers/Dark Magicians/Demons/etc. of all stripes) given the 40k Powered Armor facelift. The Tau seem fairly original on the face of things, but the idea of militantly expansive empire dedicated to bringing "the word" (in this case the "Greater Good") to others is hardly new. They believe something we have little experience with in the modern world, but the method and the drive is as old as empire.
So, in conclusion, WH40k has shamelessly robbed history, culture, and fiction of some of it's more interesting ideas and themes, and combined them into a single whole. The beauty of WH40k is not the originality of its ideas, but rather the originality of their fusion. Few others would have considered quite the approach the creators of WH40k did. Similarly, Starcraft has borrowed, certainly, and recast the ideas with a much different view. Even if Starcraft does harvest some things from WH40k (and I'd like to note that, in some cases, Starcraft bears greater resemblance to Starship Troopers than WH40k) it ultimately owes very little debt to Warhammer. The notions of characterization, the scale of the conflict, and the various intrigues do a great deal to differentiate the two.
So, what do you guys think? How much does Starcraft owe WH40k? Can you really "harvest" from a property that has harvested so freely from other properties? How similar do you think these properties are?
The less said about its harvest of Warhammer 40k, the better. For Blizzard.
This, of course, refers to Starcraft II. To be honest, I'm not sure how much I disagree. The fact that the Marines of Starcraft are even called Marines is probably the influence of WH40k. The Zerg could be fairly clearly equated to the Tyranids, with the Protoss a good stand in for the Eldar.
However, Warhammer 40k is hardly original. It and it's medieval cousin have robbed Fantasy and Science Fiction blind. So, in the case of Starcraft, can you really ripoff a ripoff?
WH40k owes a colossal debt, first and foremost, to Robert Heinlein. If the man hadn't written Starship Troopers we'd be missing a whole Sci-Fi game sub-genre (the irony, in this case, is that Heinlein's best known work is less about the killing side of things, and more about the society the Troopers are a part of). The military sci-fi love of powered armor can, in my opinion, be fairly simply traced right back to here. A close reader of the book might have even found inspiration for the Eldar in the form of Starship Troopers' enigmatic and self-interested "Skinnies," willing to switch sides in order to guarantee themselves a future. The "Bugs" of Starship Troopers almost have to have played a role in imagining the Tyranids, and probably even in some of the behavior of the Orks.
And, honestly, concepts like the Eldar, Necrons, Orks, and Chaos are essentially ideas from our own culture (Elves, Zombies, Orcs, Devil Worshippers/Dark Magicians/Demons/etc. of all stripes) given the 40k Powered Armor facelift. The Tau seem fairly original on the face of things, but the idea of militantly expansive empire dedicated to bringing "the word" (in this case the "Greater Good") to others is hardly new. They believe something we have little experience with in the modern world, but the method and the drive is as old as empire.
So, in conclusion, WH40k has shamelessly robbed history, culture, and fiction of some of it's more interesting ideas and themes, and combined them into a single whole. The beauty of WH40k is not the originality of its ideas, but rather the originality of their fusion. Few others would have considered quite the approach the creators of WH40k did. Similarly, Starcraft has borrowed, certainly, and recast the ideas with a much different view. Even if Starcraft does harvest some things from WH40k (and I'd like to note that, in some cases, Starcraft bears greater resemblance to Starship Troopers than WH40k) it ultimately owes very little debt to Warhammer. The notions of characterization, the scale of the conflict, and the various intrigues do a great deal to differentiate the two.
So, what do you guys think? How much does Starcraft owe WH40k? Can you really "harvest" from a property that has harvested so freely from other properties? How similar do you think these properties are?
Alecthar on
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Zerg -> Tyranids
Protoss -> Eldar
Terrans -> (Duh)
They mustve been 40K fans. Though, if I hear one more person claim that Starcraft was stolen from by 40K IIll set them on fire.
Protoss -> Skinnies
Terrans -> Humans
If anything, Starcraft borrowed more directly from Starship Troopers, since those happen to be the only three races mentioned in the book. It's even specified that the Skinnies don't speak, because they communicate telepathically. Warhammer probably also borrowed from Starship Troopers, but really, I don't think it matters, and who cares, as long as they're good games?
You see it everywhere from LOTR to Star Trek to Starship Troopers
I do find it funny that Andy Chambers (one of the former lead designers for 40k) went to work for Blizzard though.
edit: *shakes fist at Nobody*
While the Tyranids are very heavily inspired by the Aliens from Alien, 40K Space Marines have almost nothing in common with the marines from Aliens.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
The tyranids are kinda funny though, they started off looking very different. Once Alien/Aliens took off they were changed to more closely match the creatures from those movies.
Oh god. Don't let anyone from ODAM hear that.
And personally I consider Eldar to be way more anime-influenced.
The Tau are more inspired by Masamune Shirow's art. But he's Japanese, so thus it's anime!
Of course, they also said Eldar influenced by (different) anime
If Starcraft is influenced by Warhammer, I would personally take it as a compliment were I a Warhammer developer.
And then there's "imitation of intellectual property in a for-profit venture, even if it skirts the line of illegality, is pretty distasteful".
It's true that sci-fi has cribbed so incestuously pretty much forever that it's kind of hard to find one honest man, but in terms of look-and-feel, it's also pretty tough to ignore that Blizzard has been cribbing pretty directly from GW since its inception.
"Cribbed so incestuously" An excellent turn of phrase.
Anyway, I have to agree with this, as it's part of my argument. But, I mean, look at GW, they're playing on every genre cliche they can find. Is it even *possible* anymore to make a game with Orcs in it that can be seen as *not* cribbing from Warhammer (with the exception of LoTR, which, of course, originated Orcs as we know them)? People assume that, if your Orcs are green, you must have been cribbing from Warhammer. Honestly, the guys at GW have done such a good job of bastardizing everything they come across that you're hard pressed to make a fantasy/sci-fi game that escapes them.
Battle.net
It is true that they started off very similiar, but Blizzard has worked at moving them as far away as possible.
Warhammer portrays orcs as moronic simpletons with a collective speech impediment, about whom it is a wonder that they can figure out how to operate a stick, let alone captured enemy armor. Warcraft portrays orcs as a noble, nature-loving race trapped in a world that despises them, forced into constant warfare for the chance to get back home.
I'll just leave it at that.
It evolved into that, yes. Back in the first game it was all "WAAAAGH".
When did the demonic influence enter the lore?
This is probably true enough. I guess my real point wasn't to question who was the originator, but rather whether it really made any sense to say that anyone really *was* an originator, given the (wonderfully phrased) "incestuous cribbing."
Battle.net
Honestly I think these things go both ways - yeah, I can see plenty of bits of 40k-ish stuff in Starcraft, but I also think that there are bits of Starcraft in modern 40k - look at the way the Tyranids have become more rush-heavy, while in 1st ed, they were just large warriors that employed Zoat mercenaries to work for them.
I don't like the phrase 'incestuous cribbing' either. Well, I do, but I don't think it's right for the circumstances - it's far to simple to say that Starcraft just ripped off 40k.
At one point, GW's worlds were unique. Not unique in their content, but with two major components; the stylized artwork and the wholesale adoption of popular sci-fi/fantasy ideas.
The first is fairly straightforward. GW's artwork was nothing like anything anyone had seen commercialized. It (for both settings) was part 70's/80's fantasy/sci-fi art; part heavy metal album cover; part British-style satire; and part comic book stylized over-the-top-ness. There was an edge to it, a sense of "this is like D&D but way more cool". Instead of guys in historically-accurate chainmail, you had guys in huge spiky plate with skull-encrusted swords. It was new, and it was goddamn cool. And the orcs were green and characterful; quite unlike the 70's and early 80's piggish, hairy, formless monsters. 40k took the idea further, taking cues from Giger and Judge Dredd, it was sci-fi that oozed style. It had more in common, visually, with movies or comic books than generic boxy sci-fi book or game art.
D&D was one of the first modern properties to violently rip an entire genre from the ego of its author, and put it in the hands of gamers to play with and be a part of. Warhammer took that idea, and pushed it further. Originally envisioned as a way to play the Battle of the Five Armies, from the Hobbit, it became the ultimate expression of early 80's nerddom. It was Tolkien's creations, versus Moorcock's Melniboneans, versus 16th century German gunlines, versus whatever else they thought was cool. All these literary and movie concepts were then given an logical sandbox to play and fight in. 40k brought the concept to sci-fi, allowing you to use armies of Heinlein's marines versus Giger's Alien, or Megacity One's judges against orcs. Not just a hodgepodge compilation of cool stuff, but a compilation given its own internal structure and logic, but retaining the inspiration of the original properties. GW was the first to really do this, followed by stuff like Mutant Chronicles or Shadowrun.
Blizzard's real similarity to GW isnt Space Marines, or green Orcs, or bug monsters. It's that they follow the same exact creative model, but rather than growing from GW's influences, Blizzard creates "third gen" settings, grown from both tabletop games and classic literature and movies. They give it a distinctive style based on their own time and place (90's, America, anime, rather than 80's, Britain, and metal) and brought it to their own medium (digital games).
I think that's why old TT guys get so up in arms; Blizzard is basically the same exact company as GW, just with a different set of influences, customers, and products. Personally, I'm not about their stuff, but I can certainly respect what they do, how they do it, and the quality they adhere to.
:^:
Warcraft 3 turns that all upside. The Orcs were just puppets being used by the Demons and were originally a peaceful, honor-bound society. The Burning Legion was introduced in Warcraft 3 along with Kalimdor and other races. Really, Warcraft didn't have much for lore until 3. The Orcs were standard mindless killers, though probably more scheming than the literary standard. Warcraft 3 changed that, among other things.
Someone argued that WH40k wasn't really Sci-Fi, and I tend to agree. It just seems like like medieval times in space than normal Sci-Fi fare. I love it, but compare it to Starcraft and the differences are apparent.
Yup.
Though Marvel did have one emerald-colored gobbo first.
And thanks Irond. I've given this stuff way too much thought over the years.
However, there is a difference between being inspired and creating a new somewhat 'original' version of an already established idea and ripping something off without remorse. I do believe Blizzard had some problems with originality in Starcraft 2 after I saw the gameplay trailers.
It seems like many of the ideas were of course inspired by WH40k as well as Military Science Fiction but they are so basic and universal now you can't really hold it against them. HOWEVER, they are several new units and revamped units that are so closely relatable to other somewhat unique scifi designed units from movies and games.
1>I noticed that the Marines were able to jetpack around. Not nessarsily a new concept as its been used in Tribes 2 to one of those Highlander flicks, but the models looked exactly like Raptors from WH40k down to the way they hovered around while fighting. I may not have gotten a close enough look though.
2>The other thing that surprised me was they revamped the immortal. Similar to the Juggernaught 40k idea but it looked so odd and unique in Starcraft 1 everyone let it go. BUT, They are now Star Wars Droikas. Same model almost. They even have the damn bubble shield.
3>Lastly, those protoss walkers(again, walkers have been in everything from Mech Wars to HalfLife ect) seemed like the War of the Worlds(new one) with an extra leg. They even have the same sort of melting continuous beam lasers.
Again, I think the Starcraft was in the green when it created its own world with a inspiration from other SciFi works. It's usually how it goes, but when some of the new units are like fucking copies of other SciFi or Fantasy movies,games,novels, its kinda hard to defend.
Sorry about the rant, just had to get it off my chest.
Starcraft certainly borrowed heavily from 40K but definitely stamped its own identity on those borrowed elements. The two are distinct.
Okay. This may be reasonable, and I share some of this viewpoint – I don't, however, necessarily agree with your examples, and nor do I consider it to be, for instance, "ripping off" other works. "Hard" science fiction contains many similar concepts, simply because they make sense for their purpose. Exoskeletons are one such concept.
Reasonable. There's certainly a link, but there are also differences. I hold the view that the links between Starcraft and Starship Troopers are also very strong. The main difference is that I can play Starcraft without screaming about the political overtones. I can't do that whilst reading Troopers.
Graphically, this may be valid. I don't know my Raptors. However, the concept is pretty basic – when dealing with infantry, the single greatest advantage over mechanical units is mobility in small spaces. If one builds droids, one needs reactive intelligences. And, frankly, three-dimensional movement is obvious, and jetpacks are similarly well-known. The Reapers, by the way, rather than typical Marines.
Spherical shields? Conceptually simple, again. It also skips much of the tricky nature of molded shielding. But the model is very, very similar (extra leg on the Immortal compared to the Droideka, heavy weapons rather than light ones, and the Droideka appears to have greater mobility and less mass), and there's certainly a point here. Also, note that the shield systems differ significantly, with the Droideka's being far more general.
Intent: To provide a laser-based multi-target system. If we aren't working with explosives, then a wide field of view provides the best target range. Height also allows one to avoid friends, making this a fairly logical evolution. I've seen almost identical systems in another game at some point, but I can't recall which.
Incidentally, the Wells link here seems obvious, but I don't think one should instantly draw the link to the more recent film.
I'm not sure I'd view them as "copies" unless I was actually looking for such. During a game, it's a Terran Marine, not a takeoff of the Mobile Infantry.
It seems appropriate from the perspective of Blizzards' creativity in this being limited. The changes are more likely to be plot based, rather than in design, as Snork mentioned.
I do like Morskittar's post on the similarity between the two companies, though. It's a fascinating viewpoint, particularly for someone such as myself, who hasn't really thought on this much. Still, I might as well add my own commentary.
At this point, pretty much everything that can be described has been. In fact, so has pretty much everything that can't be described has been (thanks, Lovecraft!). A lot of times it's the degree to which you approach something in your own style that determines how likely people are to feel you're ripping something else off.