*Western pro gamers already make a lot more money in sponsorships and salaries
*Western gamers already have more aggregate prize money available whereas Koreans really only have the GSL
*Westerners have a pretty good training infrastructure now, but they're mostly too lazy to take advantage of it
*Stop trying to make life harder for impoverished Koreans just because they work harder than you
Please keep responses civil; just thought it was interesting that team liquid's manager would have that opinion.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
given the close association with oGs, Nazgul seems to be one of the best people to directly compare the management of a Western team (Liquid) and the management of a Korean team (oGs).
You still have not quoted an actual source for your idea that Blizzard has said that there is a problem with warpgates in the lategame.
The only one you managed to pull up was some obscure unrelated comment that warpgates + zealots + chronoboost made it too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals, and Blizzard chose to change the zealot build time to solve that.
Besides that, you've just claimed "BLIZZ SAYS THERE IS A PROBLEM OKAY"
you paid someone to teach you how to play starcraft
ahahahahha
Yeah, its pretty fucking weird to want to improve at something you enjoy doing and seeking out ways to do that more effectively. What a concept! Its a much better idea to claim that you don't care, that you aren't "a nerd" and then make complaints about balance in a game you barely play.
I can't even find the blue post that was talking about the warp gate mineral dump. i'm pretty sure it was a Karune post. I cant remember how significant the change was to the zealot build time.
i call people nerds to be silly. come on, you cant be serious. and i will be honest I think paying money for that is kind of ridiculous.
phoenix harass into vr/colossi ball in pvz is so strong. there is a very short window when a hydra counter can beat it but even then, force fields can save the day depending on positioning.
It really only works though if they FE, but just about every zerg player FEs in pvz.
Koreans work the longest hours in the world (out of the...more advanced countries) but I don't think that makes them harder workers or anything. Hell they aren't poor compared to the average americans as far as I know they are about average.
I don't know where nazgul gets "lazy" from but a lot of the top SC2 american players don't do it as their career, most go to school or do other things.
His wording was more like "western pro gamers have the teammates and the tools and infrastructure needed to improve, and most of them just don't take advantage of their situation by practicing enough".
Hell, the majority of salaried western pro gamers in the TSL3 said "My weakness is that I'm lazy and don't practice much olol" in their pre-TSL interviews.
kedinik on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
you'll note i specifically said no one here is even remotely playing at the level where any imbalances (if they exist) affect anything at all.
you, however, are one of the loudest complainers about Protoss, as is iowa, so I target you.
you paid someone to teach you how to play starcraft
ahahahahha
come on. you dont have to play at a strong level to make suggestions on balance. olorin agreed that there is a problem with wgs in the late game. blizzard has said that. david kim is experimenting with new warpgate ideas.
i guess it seems like most of the community seems to think this is worth thinking about
Again: No, Blizzard has not said that. What Kim said in the 1.1 sitrep was that it was too easy to a) proxy gate zealots early and b) dump minerals late by spamming out zealots late-game, so they increased the build time in 1.1 to address both problems. That does not equal a problem with the concept of warp gates.
We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds. Zealot rushes are currently too powerful at various skill levels, particularly those that rely on rapidly assaulting an enemy base from nearby "proxy" gateways. We feel the window players have to scout for and fend off this rush is too small. We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost.
Koreans work the longest hours in the world (out of the...more advanced countries) but I don't think that makes them harder workers or anything. Hell they aren't poor compared to the average americans as far as I know they are about average.
I don't know where nazgul gets "lazy" from but a lot of the top SC2 american players don't do it as their career, most go to school or do other things.
I'm not sure they have a choice. My understanding of Korean pro-gaming is that there's actually a system in place for getting involved. There are clans that specialize in recruiting players, developing them, and marketing them to teams. Their teams have coaches and people specially recruited to sacrifice their own training time for the sake of improving star players.
We have nothing that even approaches this level of training and I think it's a bit naive to expect e-sports to rise when the people who can get this kind of training are competing with up and comers. You can't even think about going pro in NA unless you're posting tournament results, and being able to do that without the backing of a team seems like it'll get harder and harder.
If we want the best Starcraft now the GSL is the only place that can give it. If we want e-sports to be grown everywhere, it probably needs to be babied a bit.
So how do zvzs work? I can't wrap my head around it. If I lose an engagement I lose the game because he streams speedlings into my base. If I build a round of drones and he builds a round of lings, I lose the game, because his lings beat mine and I lose an engagement. Whenever I look at the stats, the zerg I face just magically cut their drone production at an arbitrary number and shit out as many lings as possible after that. What am I missing? Sigh...
Don't mind me. Just having a terrible fucking day.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
you'll note i specifically said no one here is even remotely playing at the level where any imbalances (if they exist) affect anything at all.
you, however, are one of the loudest complainers about Protoss, as is iowa, so I target you.
you paid someone to teach you how to play starcraft
ahahahahha
come on. you dont have to play at a strong level to make suggestions on balance. olorin agreed that there is a problem with wgs in the late game. blizzard has said that. david kim is experimenting with new warpgate ideas.
i guess it seems like most of the community seems to think this is worth thinking about
Again: No, Blizzard has not said that. What Kim said in the 1.1 sitrep was that it was too easy to a) proxy gate zealots early and b) dump minerals late by spamming out zealots late-game, so they increased the build time in 1.1 to address both problems. That does not equal a problem with the concept of warp gates.
And as for David Kim experimenting with the warpgates, yeah, they probably are. he's also probably experimenting with using carriers, or using battlecruisers with speed upgrades (before the patch that actually did change them). He's one of the balance team, thats part of his job is to try things like that out.
This is precisely why computer game development teams that manage an ongoing patch process for games, like World of Warcraft, SC2, or Team Fortress 2 are often so close-mouthed about their thought processes, potential ideas for changes, and upcoming features, because idiots take what they say, and in their twisted idiotic little minds warp it into "THIS IS WHAT IS CHANGING THIS IS WHAT BLIZZARD IS GOING TO CHANGE THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING" when all it was, was the team exploring some potential options for future changes. David Kim experimenting with different ways of having warpgates in the game does not mean they're planning to change it, it means he's experimenting with different ways of having warpgates!
Not to sidetrack the wonderfully entertaining balance discussion, but does anyone here know much about actionscript 3 for Flash (CS4)? I created a thread in the Help/Advice forum and thought I'd cross post here since you are all my homeboys and stuff.
BTW, wedding date set for December 4th in Savannah, Ga. If you're in the area, come to the wedding!
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
So how do zvzs work? I can't wrap my head around it. If I lose an engagement I lose the game because he streams speedlings into my base. If I build a round of drones and he builds a round of lings, I lose the game, because his lings beat mine and I lose an engagement. Whenever I look at the stats, the zerg I face just magically cut their drone production at an arbitrary number and shit out as many lings as possible after that. What am I missing? Sigh...
Don't mind me. Just having a terrible fucking day.
Maybe its not an arbitrary point? next game try cutting your drones at the same number that they did and then making nothing but zerglings, and see what happens. Maybe it was a mapped out position. The best way to figure out how to beat what someone does to you is to try it yourself the next game and see where you feel vulnerable.
This is one of the ways I like to practise my PvZ. My Zerg play isn't great, but when I lose to a Zerg I watch the replay then try to do what they did to me in a practise game, playing Zerg myself. That lets me sort of analyse where the weaknesses of that strategy is.
This is actually one of the primary reasons why I favour 6gate so heavily in a lot of my PvZ games, because I was losing a lot to fast mutalisks and fast hydralisks. So I tried a few ladder games as Zerg, going fast muta and hydra vs Zerg, and I noticed that I felt REALLY vulnerable doing those strategies for the couple minutes immediately preceding the first round of mutalisks and hydras popping out, which led me to start 6gating every time I suspect a heavy gas investment into a higher tech unit from Zerg, because with how late standard Zerg gas timing is, it takes a long time to get any sort of substantial amount of gas to invest in not only the tech for a spire or hydra den but also to actually make a significant amount of those units.
and i will be honest I think paying money for that is kind of ridiculous.
What do you think about people who pay for personal trainers? Or martial arts lessons? Or piano lessons? Or chess lessons?
You're paying for the time of someone with more experience and/or a stronger grasp of fundamentals and execution in a field you want to improve or excel in.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
and i will be honest I think paying money for that is kind of ridiculous.
What do you think about people who pay for personal trainers? Or martial arts lessons? Or piano lessons? Or chess lessons?
You're paying for the time of someone with more experience and/or a stronger grasp of fundamentals and execution in a field you want to improve or excel in.
dude relax iowa isnt a nerd he doesnt play videogames he just complains about balance in one on a videogaming forum.
So how do zvzs work? I can't wrap my head around it. If I lose an engagement I lose the game because he streams speedlings into my base. If I build a round of drones and he builds a round of lings, I lose the game, because his lings beat mine and I lose an engagement. Whenever I look at the stats, the zerg I face just magically cut their drone production at an arbitrary number and shit out as many lings as possible after that. What am I missing? Sigh...
Don't mind me. Just having a terrible fucking day.
It's super important to scout in ZvZ. You can't just guess if they're droning or building an army or expanding because if you guess wrong you will probably die to a million speedlings or an all-in roach push or a mutalisk tech switch.
Sac lings constantly to keep track of their drone count, army size, and tech if you can get into their main. Use OLs/overseers to keep tabs on their tech choices and respond to them.
Build enough units to survive when they build units; drone and tech when they don't.
e: Yeah what peacekeeper said.
kedinik on
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Again: No, Blizzard has not said that. What Kim said in the 1.1 sitrep was that it was too easy to a) proxy gate zealots early and b) dump minerals late by spamming out zealots late-game, so they increased the build time in 1.1 to address both problems. That does not equal a problem with the concept of warp gates.
We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds. Zealot rushes are currently too powerful at various skill levels, particularly those that rely on rapidly assaulting an enemy base from nearby "proxy" gateways. We feel the window players have to scout for and fend off this rush is too small. We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost.
I find the language of
"We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost."
to be pretty ambiguous.
but sure you can have that victory
anyway
"We felt late game protoss splash damage was slightly overpowered. This applies both to high templars and colossi. We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out. As we’ve mentioned many times before, we feel it’s safer to take small steps in making balance changes than making drastic changes to an entire race."
so collosus are getting a nerf. the collosus is slightly imba according to blizzard
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
remember that overlords are basically invulnerable everywhere on the map except in your opponents base in ZvZ as hydras are slow and mutalisks are rare, so you can pretty much have 8-10 overlords out on the map everywhere and be totally fine with keeping them alive.
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
So how do zvzs work? I can't wrap my head around it. If I lose an engagement I lose the game because he streams speedlings into my base. If I build a round of drones and he builds a round of lings, I lose the game, because his lings beat mine and I lose an engagement. Whenever I look at the stats, the zerg I face just magically cut their drone production at an arbitrary number and shit out as many lings as possible after that. What am I missing? Sigh...
Don't mind me. Just having a terrible fucking day.
I'm going to assume you're not trying to one base or two base all-in. I'm also terrible and don't really want to discuss my badness so you're welcome to troll/pick this apart but I won't be involved.
Scout early and get overlords in place to check what he's hatching. This took me a long time to do but it will tell you exactly what's going through his head. Try to stay one step behind him, take your pool on 14 and then just watch. Take your gas when he does, expand when he does. If he decides to get aggressive you should have equal tech but 2-3 more drones at all times.
You can separate ZvZ openers into four groups: 1-base, Speedling Expand, 2-base mass ling, and 2-base roach. Against 1-base builds, drone to 19-20 and get roach tech out as soon as possible. You should be able to wall off banelings long enough to snipe them with your queen and roaches and you'll be able to outproduce his lings. If he stays one base, trickle in drones and take your gas. A +1 Roach Speed timing attack will kill every 1-base play unless they go infestors (which puts them significantly behind and allows you to expand). Speedling expands require you to watch their eggs carefully. You need to know if they're rushing you or not. If you see any drones hatch after the queen is out, you're probably safe. 2-base mass ling is the most irritating thing in the world, but the same stuff applies. Drones after queen, you can start droning really hard. They like to transition into Banelings so get a roach warren when you can afford it.
If your opponent expands and starts droning hard, follow him. Theoretically, your macro will be better and you'll win. Infestor tech gives you easy expansions and is very very difficult to break before Broodlords/Ultras. Plan for the long game, keep your upgrades up and make sure you have a plan to switch to hive tech.
This post is too long but basically, scout his eggs, hold the all-ins, and plan for long games.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Again: No, Blizzard has not said that. What Kim said in the 1.1 sitrep was that it was too easy to a) proxy gate zealots early and b) dump minerals late by spamming out zealots late-game, so they increased the build time in 1.1 to address both problems. That does not equal a problem with the concept of warp gates.
We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds. Zealot rushes are currently too powerful at various skill levels, particularly those that rely on rapidly assaulting an enemy base from nearby "proxy" gateways. We feel the window players have to scout for and fend off this rush is too small. We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost.
I find the language of
"We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost."
to be pretty ambiguous.
but sure you can have that victory
anyway
"We felt late game protoss splash damage was slightly overpowered. This applies both to high templars and colossi. We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out. As we’ve mentioned many times before, we feel it’s safer to take small steps in making balance changes than making drastic changes to an entire race."
so collosus are getting a nerf. the collosus is slightly imba according to blizzard
And this goes back to what I said about idiots like you taking preliminary discussions from Blizzard and turning them into absolute "this is what is changing" statements.
Nowhere in that statement does it say "Colossus are OP we are gonna nerf them".
What they say is "we feel lategame splash damage for Protoss is slightly overpowered". What this means, and it was true, is that the combination of warp-in instant storm high templars with a colossus ball were too strong. Since they don't want to nerf both and risk making Protoss too weak in the lategame, they changed the templar first. This has, like it or not, admit it or not, had the effect of making Protoss colossi balls pretty much the be-all end-all. In most games, eventually a Protoss would phase out Colossus from their army and stick to exclusively templar once they had safely transitioned to that tech on multiple mining bases with abundant gas. Now, however, the Colossi tech path is still stronger, so there is no reason to transition.
Personally I would have preferred they nerf the Colossus and leave storm/amulet upgrades the way they were, but its not up to me.
nerf colossi, buff immortals and gateway units! that's what I say.
gateway units are tricky to balance. In very small numbers (3-5 units) they are a stronger army than anything the other races can get in a similar amount of time. But the difference is that as army sizes get larger, the other races reach a critical mass sooner and their critical mass is stronger.
For example, if you have a zealot and a stalker vs a marine and two marauders, your army is able to beat that terran army. But if you have 10 zealots and 10 stalkers vs 10 marines and 20 marauders, your army is fucked.
nerf colossi, buff immortals and gateway units! that's what I say.
Fuck gateway units. They're perfectly powerful on their own. You don't need to buff something to balance the colossi nerf. Toss just needs a swift kick in the balls to bring em down a peg, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
colloxxen are the dumbest things a-move splash damage bring back reavers
agreed. I would much prefer something else in their place to help deal AOE damage, or at least a change to them to make them more interesting to use. I have no ideas, though, unfortunately.
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
What I learned today:
- Gateways have mineral dumps other than zealots, apparently.
- Two burrowed infestors are much deadlier to mineral lines than a storm drop.
- When you see carriers, double-expand. Oh, wait. I learned that last week.
and i will be honest I think paying money for that is kind of ridiculous.
What do you think about people who pay for personal trainers? Or martial arts lessons? Or piano lessons? Or chess lessons?
You're paying for the time of someone with more experience and/or a stronger grasp of fundamentals and execution in a field you want to improve or excel in.
dude relax iowa isnt a nerd he doesnt play videogames he just complains about balance in one on a videogaming forum.
There are plenty of free resources you can utilize to become better at this game. I guess it's just funny to me that someone is willing to pay money to train rather than just recognize the flaws in their play themselves. Thats part of the fun of this game for me.
itp dhal reveals that he cannot grasp the concept of irony
nerf colossi, buff immortals and gateway units! that's what I say.
gateway units are tricky to balance. In very small numbers (3-5 units) they are a stronger army than anything the other races can get in a similar amount of time. But the difference is that as army sizes get larger, the other races reach a critical mass sooner and their critical mass is stronger.
For example, if you have a zealot and a stalker vs a marine and two marauders, your army is able to beat that terran army. But if you have 10 zealots and 10 stalkers vs 10 marines and 20 marauders, your army is fucked.
the shitty thing is medivacs make bio so much more powerful so even though toss has stronger units early on, its pretty short lived. plus, because bio is ranged, zealots just start to evaporate as armies get larger since they're melee and getting into slashing range with one zealot means getting hit by the whole damn bio ball.
this is all just theorycrafting (yes, cringe now, I know), but I think the game would be much more enjoyable if the wg cooldown for gateway units were increased (maybe even increase costs too), gateway units were buffed, and colossi was slightly nerfed. then again, that might make the game completely imbalanced.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Toss just needs a swift kick in the balls to bring em down a peg, and there's nothing wrong with that.
i dont even understand what this statement means? what are you talking about?
Protoss lose plenty of games where they go for Colossus deathballs. Sure, the army itself is pretty easy to control, but there's nothing easy about the forcefields you have to pull off sometimes to not die while working your way up to it, and there's nothing easy about making sure you secure a third base safely enough so that you aren't trying to go all-in deathball off two bases.
Maybe the Colossus is a little too powerful, but Protoss as a whole is not overpowered and you're fucking retarded if you think they are.
Get off your fucking little whiny pedestals. Do you know why TannerMS and Kedinik do so well as Zerg? Because they practise hard and play a lot of games, when they lose they look at the replays and figure out why, and how to improve it. And they don't fucking sit around whining all day like you and others, complaining about how poor maligned Zerg is deliberately being kept down by The Man, forever doomed to be beaten thoroughly by Protoss.
Again: No, Blizzard has not said that. What Kim said in the 1.1 sitrep was that it was too easy to a) proxy gate zealots early and b) dump minerals late by spamming out zealots late-game, so they increased the build time in 1.1 to address both problems. That does not equal a problem with the concept of warp gates.
We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds. Zealot rushes are currently too powerful at various skill levels, particularly those that rely on rapidly assaulting an enemy base from nearby "proxy" gateways. We feel the window players have to scout for and fend off this rush is too small. We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost.
I find the language of
"We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost."
to be pretty ambiguous.
but sure you can have that victory
anyway
"We felt late game protoss splash damage was slightly overpowered. This applies both to high templars and colossi. We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out. As we’ve mentioned many times before, we feel it’s safer to take small steps in making balance changes than making drastic changes to an entire race."
so collosus are getting a nerf. the collosus is slightly imba according to blizzard
And this goes back to what I said about idiots like you taking preliminary discussions from Blizzard and turning them into absolute "this is what is changing" statements.
Nowhere in that statement does it say "Colossus are OP we are gonna nerf them".
What they say is "we feel lategame splash damage for Protoss is slightly overpowered". What this means, and it was true, is that the combination of warp-in instant storm high templars with a colossus ball were too strong. Since they don't want to nerf both and risk making Protoss too weak in the lategame, they changed the templar first. This has, like it or not, admit it or not, had the effect of making Protoss colossi balls pretty much the be-all end-all. In most games, eventually a Protoss would phase out Colossus from their army and stick to exclusively templar once they had safely transitioned to that tech on multiple mining bases with abundant gas. Now, however, the Colossi tech path is still stronger, so there is no reason to transition.
Personally I would have preferred they nerf the Colossus and leave storm/amulet upgrades the way they were, but its not up to me.
"This applies both to high templars and collosi." nowhere does it say that its only a problem if both high templar and collosi are being used at the same time, you dolt. The statement is saying that A) high templar splash is too strong and collosi splash is to strong. it is not saying that 'Collosi splash combined with high templar splash is too strong' even though that is true.
and i will be honest I think paying money for that is kind of ridiculous.
What do you think about people who pay for personal trainers? Or martial arts lessons? Or piano lessons? Or chess lessons?
You're paying for the time of someone with more experience and/or a stronger grasp of fundamentals and execution in a field you want to improve or excel in.
dude relax iowa isnt a nerd he doesnt play videogames he just complains about balance in one on a videogaming forum.
There are plenty of free resources you can utilize to become better at this game. I guess it's just funny to me that someone is willing to pay money to train rather than just recognize the flaws in their play themselves. Thats part of the fun of this game for me.
itp dhal reveals that he cannot grasp the concept of irony
There are plenty of free resources to improve chess play, and learn how to play piano, and learn some tips for how to train better in a gym scenario. But that doesn't invalidate having a teacher who can tailor their influx of information to better suit your learning style and rate of improvement.
People learn differently. Some work better learning alone, some work better learning as part of a group, and some benefit far more from having someone to give instant feedback when they improve (a teacher) than trying to recognise that feedback for themselves.
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
There are plenty of free resources you can utilize to become better at this game. I guess it's just funny to me that someone is willing to pay money to train rather than just recognize the flaws in their play themselves. Thats part of the fun of this game for me.
itp dhal reveals that he cannot grasp the concept of irony
In this thread a man who has contributed nothing but trolling for months, STILL is not jailed. Any chance you could go be a huge douche somewhere else?
Posts
He basically said, politely:
*Western pro gamers already make a lot more money in sponsorships and salaries
*Western gamers already have more aggregate prize money available whereas Koreans really only have the GSL
*Westerners have a pretty good training infrastructure now, but they're mostly too lazy to take advantage of it
*Stop trying to make life harder for impoverished Koreans just because they work harder than you
Please keep responses civil; just thought it was interesting that team liquid's manager would have that opinion.
He got idra-BM'd by a Terran, then he evo chamber blocked another Terran from landing his factory on a reactor, netting more BM.
This is one of his more entertaining nights streaming. 8-)
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i call people nerds to be silly. come on, you cant be serious. and i will be honest I think paying money for that is kind of ridiculous.
It really only works though if they FE, but just about every zerg player FEs in pvz.
I don't know where nazgul gets "lazy" from but a lot of the top SC2 american players don't do it as their career, most go to school or do other things.
Zerg OP is the new thing now that half the ladder maps suck for 2 rax all ins :P
ya know, it's surprising how often people try to counter with roaches. like this fellow right here:
any criticism would be welcome too
I was paraphrasing.
His wording was more like "western pro gamers have the teammates and the tools and infrastructure needed to improve, and most of them just don't take advantage of their situation by practicing enough".
Hell, the majority of salaried western pro gamers in the TSL3 said "My weakness is that I'm lazy and don't practice much olol" in their pre-TSL interviews.
Again: No, Blizzard has not said that. What Kim said in the 1.1 sitrep was that it was too easy to a) proxy gate zealots early and b) dump minerals late by spamming out zealots late-game, so they increased the build time in 1.1 to address both problems. That does not equal a problem with the concept of warp gates.
EDIT: And I'll link the sitrep again.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
I'm not sure they have a choice. My understanding of Korean pro-gaming is that there's actually a system in place for getting involved. There are clans that specialize in recruiting players, developing them, and marketing them to teams. Their teams have coaches and people specially recruited to sacrifice their own training time for the sake of improving star players.
We have nothing that even approaches this level of training and I think it's a bit naive to expect e-sports to rise when the people who can get this kind of training are competing with up and comers. You can't even think about going pro in NA unless you're posting tournament results, and being able to do that without the backing of a team seems like it'll get harder and harder.
If we want the best Starcraft now the GSL is the only place that can give it. If we want e-sports to be grown everywhere, it probably needs to be babied a bit.
Don't mind me. Just having a terrible fucking day.
And as for David Kim experimenting with the warpgates, yeah, they probably are. he's also probably experimenting with using carriers, or using battlecruisers with speed upgrades (before the patch that actually did change them). He's one of the balance team, thats part of his job is to try things like that out.
This is precisely why computer game development teams that manage an ongoing patch process for games, like World of Warcraft, SC2, or Team Fortress 2 are often so close-mouthed about their thought processes, potential ideas for changes, and upcoming features, because idiots take what they say, and in their twisted idiotic little minds warp it into "THIS IS WHAT IS CHANGING THIS IS WHAT BLIZZARD IS GOING TO CHANGE THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING" when all it was, was the team exploring some potential options for future changes. David Kim experimenting with different ways of having warpgates in the game does not mean they're planning to change it, it means he's experimenting with different ways of having warpgates!
BTW, wedding date set for December 4th in Savannah, Ga. If you're in the area, come to the wedding!
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Maybe its not an arbitrary point? next game try cutting your drones at the same number that they did and then making nothing but zerglings, and see what happens. Maybe it was a mapped out position. The best way to figure out how to beat what someone does to you is to try it yourself the next game and see where you feel vulnerable.
This is one of the ways I like to practise my PvZ. My Zerg play isn't great, but when I lose to a Zerg I watch the replay then try to do what they did to me in a practise game, playing Zerg myself. That lets me sort of analyse where the weaknesses of that strategy is.
This is actually one of the primary reasons why I favour 6gate so heavily in a lot of my PvZ games, because I was losing a lot to fast mutalisks and fast hydralisks. So I tried a few ladder games as Zerg, going fast muta and hydra vs Zerg, and I noticed that I felt REALLY vulnerable doing those strategies for the couple minutes immediately preceding the first round of mutalisks and hydras popping out, which led me to start 6gating every time I suspect a heavy gas investment into a higher tech unit from Zerg, because with how late standard Zerg gas timing is, it takes a long time to get any sort of substantial amount of gas to invest in not only the tech for a spire or hydra den but also to actually make a significant amount of those units.
(As an aside, I've been called a hacker twice in like 6 games. That's good, right?)
(Also, I broke my no-4gating rule, but I think you'll appreciate the extenuating circumstances)
You're paying for the time of someone with more experience and/or a stronger grasp of fundamentals and execution in a field you want to improve or excel in.
more so than scouting you just have to be able to keep tabs on your opponent's army.
dude relax iowa isnt a nerd he doesnt play videogames he just complains about balance in one on a videogaming forum.
It's super important to scout in ZvZ. You can't just guess if they're droning or building an army or expanding because if you guess wrong you will probably die to a million speedlings or an all-in roach push or a mutalisk tech switch.
Sac lings constantly to keep track of their drone count, army size, and tech if you can get into their main. Use OLs/overseers to keep tabs on their tech choices and respond to them.
Build enough units to survive when they build units; drone and tech when they don't.
e: Yeah what peacekeeper said.
I find the language of
"We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost."
to be pretty ambiguous.
but sure you can have that victory
anyway
"We felt late game protoss splash damage was slightly overpowered. This applies both to high templars and colossi. We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out. As we’ve mentioned many times before, we feel it’s safer to take small steps in making balance changes than making drastic changes to an entire race."
so collosus are getting a nerf. the collosus is slightly imba according to blizzard
I'm going to assume you're not trying to one base or two base all-in. I'm also terrible and don't really want to discuss my badness so you're welcome to troll/pick this apart but I won't be involved.
Scout early and get overlords in place to check what he's hatching. This took me a long time to do but it will tell you exactly what's going through his head. Try to stay one step behind him, take your pool on 14 and then just watch. Take your gas when he does, expand when he does. If he decides to get aggressive you should have equal tech but 2-3 more drones at all times.
You can separate ZvZ openers into four groups: 1-base, Speedling Expand, 2-base mass ling, and 2-base roach. Against 1-base builds, drone to 19-20 and get roach tech out as soon as possible. You should be able to wall off banelings long enough to snipe them with your queen and roaches and you'll be able to outproduce his lings. If he stays one base, trickle in drones and take your gas. A +1 Roach Speed timing attack will kill every 1-base play unless they go infestors (which puts them significantly behind and allows you to expand). Speedling expands require you to watch their eggs carefully. You need to know if they're rushing you or not. If you see any drones hatch after the queen is out, you're probably safe. 2-base mass ling is the most irritating thing in the world, but the same stuff applies. Drones after queen, you can start droning really hard. They like to transition into Banelings so get a roach warren when you can afford it.
If your opponent expands and starts droning hard, follow him. Theoretically, your macro will be better and you'll win. Infestor tech gives you easy expansions and is very very difficult to break before Broodlords/Ultras. Plan for the long game, keep your upgrades up and make sure you have a plan to switch to hive tech.
This post is too long but basically, scout his eggs, hold the all-ins, and plan for long games.
And this goes back to what I said about idiots like you taking preliminary discussions from Blizzard and turning them into absolute "this is what is changing" statements.
Nowhere in that statement does it say "Colossus are OP we are gonna nerf them".
What they say is "we feel lategame splash damage for Protoss is slightly overpowered". What this means, and it was true, is that the combination of warp-in instant storm high templars with a colossus ball were too strong. Since they don't want to nerf both and risk making Protoss too weak in the lategame, they changed the templar first. This has, like it or not, admit it or not, had the effect of making Protoss colossi balls pretty much the be-all end-all. In most games, eventually a Protoss would phase out Colossus from their army and stick to exclusively templar once they had safely transitioned to that tech on multiple mining bases with abundant gas. Now, however, the Colossi tech path is still stronger, so there is no reason to transition.
Personally I would have preferred they nerf the Colossus and leave storm/amulet upgrades the way they were, but its not up to me.
gateway units are tricky to balance. In very small numbers (3-5 units) they are a stronger army than anything the other races can get in a similar amount of time. But the difference is that as army sizes get larger, the other races reach a critical mass sooner and their critical mass is stronger.
For example, if you have a zealot and a stalker vs a marine and two marauders, your army is able to beat that terran army. But if you have 10 zealots and 10 stalkers vs 10 marines and 20 marauders, your army is fucked.
Fuck gateway units. They're perfectly powerful on their own. You don't need to buff something to balance the colossi nerf. Toss just needs a swift kick in the balls to bring em down a peg, and there's nothing wrong with that.
agreed. I would much prefer something else in their place to help deal AOE damage, or at least a change to them to make them more interesting to use. I have no ideas, though, unfortunately.
- Gateways have mineral dumps other than zealots, apparently.
- Two burrowed infestors are much deadlier to mineral lines than a storm drop.
- When you see carriers, double-expand. Oh, wait. I learned that last week.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
itp dhal reveals that he cannot grasp the concept of irony
the shitty thing is medivacs make bio so much more powerful so even though toss has stronger units early on, its pretty short lived. plus, because bio is ranged, zealots just start to evaporate as armies get larger since they're melee and getting into slashing range with one zealot means getting hit by the whole damn bio ball.
this is all just theorycrafting (yes, cringe now, I know), but I think the game would be much more enjoyable if the wg cooldown for gateway units were increased (maybe even increase costs too), gateway units were buffed, and colossi was slightly nerfed. then again, that might make the game completely imbalanced.
i dont even understand what this statement means? what are you talking about?
Protoss lose plenty of games where they go for Colossus deathballs. Sure, the army itself is pretty easy to control, but there's nothing easy about the forcefields you have to pull off sometimes to not die while working your way up to it, and there's nothing easy about making sure you secure a third base safely enough so that you aren't trying to go all-in deathball off two bases.
Maybe the Colossus is a little too powerful, but Protoss as a whole is not overpowered and you're fucking retarded if you think they are.
Get off your fucking little whiny pedestals. Do you know why TannerMS and Kedinik do so well as Zerg? Because they practise hard and play a lot of games, when they lose they look at the replays and figure out why, and how to improve it. And they don't fucking sit around whining all day like you and others, complaining about how poor maligned Zerg is deliberately being kept down by The Man, forever doomed to be beaten thoroughly by Protoss.
please take a course in basic reasoning
There are plenty of free resources to improve chess play, and learn how to play piano, and learn some tips for how to train better in a gym scenario. But that doesn't invalidate having a teacher who can tailor their influx of information to better suit your learning style and rate of improvement.
People learn differently. Some work better learning alone, some work better learning as part of a group, and some benefit far more from having someone to give instant feedback when they improve (a teacher) than trying to recognise that feedback for themselves.
In this thread a man who has contributed nothing but trolling for months, STILL is not jailed. Any chance you could go be a huge douche somewhere else?