Here's the email I got back from Sen. Stacey Campfield after I told him he was a silly man for presenting and passing such silly laws in my home state.
> While I appreciate your passion, I still feel it is a parents responsibility to decide when a child is ready to grasp such a complex issue as sexuality and what they want to tell the child about that complex subject. All children developed mentally at different rates. I do not feel a teacher with an agenda (Be it pro or con) is the appropriate person to decide for the entire class just because they may think one way or another on an issue and want to espouse it. I doubt you would want a teacher who said homosexuality is evil, dirty and wrong because they felt it was appropriate and that is what they thought the children needed to hear. We are falling behind the rest of the world in math and science amongst other things. This will be just one less issue they have to worry about.
>
> Yours in service,
>
> Sen. Stacey Campfield
ChillyWilly on
PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
0
Options
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
So we punish people harshly to discourage killing people.
We punish people even harsher to discourage killing people out of hate and acting upon your hate.
Which is to suggest, bro, its bad to kill someone, but to kill them out of hate, that's like, double bad.
Killing is killing! There is no undo- and in both cases, the maximum punishment should be served.
The reason for hate crime legislation is because hate crimes not only hurt the person they directly target, but serve to intimidate the minority community that the victim belongs to. It's essentially the perpetrators saying "let this be a warning to the rest of you *slur of choice* that acts all uppity".
So our system kinda does that right back. "Let this be a warning to all you racists out there, some dude was just convicted for life for beating a guy while shouting the N-word."
where as a week later, someone could be beat and have their wallet taken, get arrested and face only a handful of years in prison. Maybe this guy's acts were racially motivated, but because it may not have been apparent, he wouldn't get the worse punishment- which again, I feel creates a precedent of bad, vs. double-bad.
if you are going to beat the shit out of someone, better do it for a profit motive rather than hate- you'll face less jail time, it seems.
You don't feel like there should be a legal difference between lighting a pile crap on fire in front of someone's house and lighting a cross on fire in front of their house?
Well.
One of these has the implicit threat of harm to a person or their family, the other doesn't.
Yes, yes it is better to kill someone for profit, killing out of hate is empowering for haters, so the harsher punishment is to un-empower them and empower the hated.
I think it goes (at least in my mind) from least worst to most worst:
accident/uncontrollable action -> crime of passion -> for profit/hate crime -> undermine justice system/government.
In terms of those three, I can't even figure out which is worst, they cover the gambit of undermining state control to the Holocaust to strait people not even being allowed to use the word gay without getting death threats.
What is the impression people get from the album title from Lil B? It sounds like it could have just been trying to piss people off, but I can't really see doing something so risky without actually wanting to set up a debate about the issue in the rap community.
Void Slayer on
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
I think he is doing it partially for the shock value but from what I've read he clearly understands, and sympathizes, with the actual problem he is confronting here.
Good on him as far as I'm concerned.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
This is tangential to the issue, but I wonder how exactly an optimal legal framework would make the distinction between pre-op transgender and transvestite.
This is tangential to the issue, but I wonder how exactly an optimal legal framework would make the distinction between pre-op transgender and transvestite.
If it existed within an optimal social framework where surgery was not seen as some kind of all-important dividing line, the question wouldn't arise.
Catullus 16 on
jothki: If you removed all of the protons from a unicorn, would it still be a unicorn? Evil Multifarious: it would be a dead unicorn.
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
This is tangential to the issue, but I wonder how exactly an optimal legal framework would make the distinction between pre-op transgender and transvestite.
Outside the issue of gay marriage, I'm not sure there are too many instances where the law would need to intervene.
Here's the email I got back from Sen. Stacey Campfield after I told him he was a silly man for presenting and passing such silly laws in my home state.
> While I appreciate your passion, I still feel it is a parents responsibility to decide when a child is ready to grasp such a complex issue as sexuality and what they want to tell the child about that complex subject. All children developed mentally at different rates. I do not feel a teacher with an agenda (Be it pro or con) is the appropriate person to decide for the entire class just because they may think one way or another on an issue and want to espouse it. I doubt you would want a teacher who said homosexuality is evil, dirty and wrong because they felt it was appropriate and that is what they thought the children needed to hear. We are falling behind the rest of the world in math and science amongst other things. This will be just one less issue they have to worry about.
>
> Yours in service,
>
> Sen. Stacey Campfield
I still think it's going to be problematic if one tip-toes in that manner regarding sexuality around children, but it's a logical response on his part.
No, it's fucking not logical. If sexuality is too complex (which it isn't), then NO talk of sexuality would be the law. Note that heterosexuality is perfectly simple enough for kids. What a weird coincidence.
This is tangential to the issue, but I wonder how exactly an optimal legal framework would make the distinction between pre-op transgender and transvestite.
If you're talking about hate-crime laws it doesn't matter; the motivation of the criminal is the issue, not whether they were "right". If a neo-Nazi beats up a guy for being Jewish, it doesn't matter if it later turns out the neo-Nazi was wrong and the guy was really Presbyterian.
mythago on
Three lines of plaintext:
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
This is tangential to the issue, but I wonder how exactly an optimal legal framework would make the distinction between pre-op transgender and transvestite.
If you're talking about hate-crime laws it doesn't matter; the motivation of the criminal is the issue, not whether they were "right". If a neo-Nazi beats up a guy for being Jewish, it doesn't matter if it later turns out the neo-Nazi was wrong and the guy was really Presbyterian.
right. several of the kids that committed suicide lately were straight, it's just that their peers perceived them as gay. What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of that hatred is projected on straight people, and so homophobia affects just about everyone negatively, not just gays.
Casual Eddy on
0
Options
21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
I just saw mention of this issue of the proposed law not allowing teachers to use the word "Gay" on Twitter. Incidentally, from George Takei.
TN bill will prevent teachers from using the word "gay" in class. In response, I'm lending them my name: "It's okay to be Takei."
That guy... I love George Takei, that guy is always so cheery. I never recognized him in Heroes because he was scowling in that show. I seriously have trouble recognizing him when he's not smiling.
I just saw mention of this issue of the proposed law not allowing teachers to use the word "Gay" on Twitter. Incidentally, from George Takei.
TN bill will prevent teachers from using the word "gay" in class. In response, I'm lending them my name: "It's okay to be Takei."
That guy... I love George Takei, that guy is always so cheery. I never recognized him in Heroes because he was scowling in that show. I seriously have trouble recognizing him when he's not smiling.
Takei has done more good for showing the world that it's okay to be "Takei" than most will ever know.
As a regular on the Howard Stern show, he is the voice of a person with a stable marriage, good friends, capable of rolling with the punches and laughing that the circus sideshow that is Stern's studio... when you can reach an audience like that and become a celebrity to them... you have brought awareness to how people aren't so different to a group of people who could really stand (in general, not all who listen) to gain a little acceptance.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I just saw mention of this issue of the proposed law not allowing teachers to use the word "Gay" on Twitter. Incidentally, from George Takei.
TN bill will prevent teachers from using the word "gay" in class. In response, I'm lending them my name: "It's okay to be Takei."
That guy... I love George Takei, that guy is always so cheery. I never recognized him in Heroes because he was scowling in that show. I seriously have trouble recognizing him when he's not smiling.
George is gay in several definitions of the word. Great guy.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
This is tangential to the issue, but I wonder how exactly an optimal legal framework would make the distinction between pre-op transgender and transvestite.
If you're talking about hate-crime laws it doesn't matter; the motivation of the criminal is the issue, not whether they were "right". If a neo-Nazi beats up a guy for being Jewish, it doesn't matter if it later turns out the neo-Nazi was wrong and the guy was really Presbyterian.
I was trying to figure out if "we thought she was a man peeping in the ladies room, that's why we beat her ass" would work as a defense to get it from a hate crime to simple assault. In your analogy, if a neo-Nazi (who for argument sake hasn't done anything illegal despite his shitty worldview) beats up a guy for breaking into his house and it turns out the burglar is jewish, is it a hate crime?
Even if you assumed that's what happened, it goes beyond self defense when they continue the attack 1)once the perpetrator is fleeing and 2) the perpetrator is obviously incapacitated.
Hell, there's a movie plot based on pretty much exactly what you stated only with a black guy instead of a Jew. American History X, black guy breaks in, neo nazi chases him, beats him up and curbstomps him.
Right, right - I totally agree. I know in this case it's a hate crime, I was just trying to use a hypothetical situation to wrap my mind around the sorts of legal distinctions necessary to make sure there's no legal loophole allowing people who commit hate crimes against transgendered people by saying they were doing it for different reasons.
I was trying to figure out if "we thought she was a man peeping in the ladies room, that's why we beat her ass" would work as a defense to get it from a hate crime to simple assault. In your analogy, if a neo-Nazi (who for argument sake hasn't done anything illegal despite his shitty worldview) beats up a guy for breaking into his house and it turns out the burglar is jewish, is it a hate crime?
1) Sorta. It's not that it's a defense, as that the prosecution has to prove the motivation/intent. So "we thought it was a guy peeping" is evidence that the defendants were not acting out of transphobia; it's not really a defense per se. (Of course, whether it's persuasive evidence is another thing.)
2) No, it's not a hate crime.
mythago on
Three lines of plaintext:
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
uhhh, if a man is peeing in the ladies room, it's like, not okay to attack them. Like, that is assault anyway? Not self defense.
You might call the cops or have him kicked out of the establishment, but it is not even CLOSE to defending your house from a burglar.
Void Slayer on
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
0
Options
ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Here's the entire email chain I've had with Senator Stacey. Notice the non-response at the very end. How helpful of him to give me no answer whatsoever.
Me
I am a 25 year old white Christian male that has lived in Tennessee my entire life. As I've grown older and wiser, I've realized that the people who think they are "protecting" us from gay people are really just ignorant folks who don't know gay people, have never met one and never intend to. They are people who are afraid of what they don't know and they are content to sit in their ignorance bubble and make life difficult for a minority group of people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. They do it purely out of hate. And it saddens me.
I cannot wait for people like you to learn some sense, leave office and/or die off as you get older. This world will become a much better place without hateful bigots like you in it.
Him
While I appreciate your passion, I still feel it is a parents responsibility to decide when a child is ready to grasp such a complex issue as sexuality and what they want to tell the child about that complex subject. All children developed mentally at different rates. I do not feel a teacher with an agenda (Be it pro or con) is the appropriate person to decide for the entire class just because they may think one way or another on an issue and want to espouse it. I doubt you would want a teacher who said homosexuality is evil, dirty and wrong because they felt it was appropriate and that is what they thought the children needed to hear. We are falling behind the rest of the world in math and science amongst other things. This will be just one less issue they have to worry about.
Yours in service,
Sen. Stacey Campfield
Me
Correct, we are falling behind in math and science in this country. My girlfriend is actually a high school biology and chemistry teacher and she has students that can't even read, much less mentally process a physics equation. It's sad. And with all the ways that teachers have already been hit this year (such as changes to the Tennessee tenure system), I don't see how this legislation either helps them teach or helps them govern their classes effectively when an issue about homosexuality comes up. The fact is, I shouldn't have to worry about the teacher who said homosexuality is wrong in the same way that I shouldn't have to worry that a teacher is going to call a child the n-word in class and tell everyone that being black is a terrible thing. Because any teacher who says either of those things should be fired.
Now don't get me wrong. Younger children in grades kindergarten through perhaps 2nd or 3rd grade, upon calling another child "fag" or some other slur, can be told not to say it by a teacher and will likely listen when the teacher says "because I said so". But once they start getting a little older and gaining some critical thinking skills, those children are going to start asking "why?"..."Why, Mrs. Smith, is that a bad word?". And the teacher will not be able to answer the question properly. Just saying, "Because I said so" isn't going to work. Children need reasons for discipline as they grow older and you are undermining a teacher's ability to say, "You can't say fag because it's a homophobic slur and, on top of that, bullying is wrong". You are basically allowing homosexual students to be bullied and are taking power away from teachers to try and stop it.
And what if two children are beginning to develop emotional feelings that are different from the people around them in, say...grades 6, 7 and 8? These are important developmental times for a child and, again, you bill makes it to where they can't speak to so much as a school counselor about what is going on in their lives. Isn't that what a school counselor is for, Senator? To be there for the children that are having a difficult time getting through school mentally and emotionally? School is hard enough on children without you attempting to make it ever more so.
Is this really what you want to start happening in Tennessee schools? Homosexual kids (or kids simply perceived to be homosexual by others) are killing themselves at an alarming rate in this country and, while I find your legislation ridiculous, but I don't think you honestly want more children to start committing suicide all over Tennessee grade schools and high schools. But I promise you that this legislation is going to make that stat rise as the years go by. You are simply digging a deeper hole for these already confused and helpless students. I hope, for your sake, that you can deal with that.
Him
We passed (and I co sponsored) anti bullying legislation @ 2 years ago.
Stacey
It's like...dude, that's not even scratching the surface of what you need to be talking to me about. It's not an answer. Why do you suck at your job?
ChillyWilly on
PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
How completely misleading for him to pretend that this legislation is meant to prevent anti-gay teachers from telling impressionable young people that homosexuality is wrong. This law wasn't written for pro-gay parents looking to protect their kids from administrative bullying, it was written for anti-gay parents who fear nothing so much as their sons and daughters might one day say "Mom, dad, there's something I'd like to tell you..."
As for the content personally I think framing this as a 'makes bullying easier to get away with' issue is the wrong approach, precisely because then the homophobes will respond with attempts to make it harder to get away with bullying.
Bullying isn't the problem here. It's a problem, yes, but regarding this specifically it's a symptom of the greater issue at hand, which is of course the blatant acceptance of homophobia and ostracizing of anyone who doesn't conform to a WASP worldview. Saying 'this will make it harder for teachers to stop bullying' isn't addressing the core problem, what you should be saying is 'this will make it clear to kids that it is not okay to be gay, that they should be ashamed of it and that they should think something is wrong with themselves'.
If you're going to keep replying to him (and you should!) I would suggest referencing recent teen suicides due to homophobia. To me that's the most compelling issue at hand, and I think even the most bigoted parents would rather their kids be gay than kill themselves. While I'm not suggesting that all gay kids commit suicide it is clearly a problem we face in our society and this legislation moves us in the wrong direction. These kids need the support of their teachers and school officials for those times when they can't get the support they need at home (or at church or the Boy Scouts or whatever else).
That's just my opinion. Also it's probably a good idea not to start things off by saying you think the other guy should die.
I basically just told him that his last email wasn't even the point of what I was trying to discuss with him and that he obviously wasn't arguing in good faith. I'm done talking to this bozo.
EDIT: Good call, Yod. Forgot where I was posting for a second.
And I didn't really tell him to die. Just that I was, you know...waiting for it to happen.
ChillyWilly on
PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
0
Options
ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
I basically just told him that his last email wasn't even the point of what I was trying to discuss with him and that he obviously wasn't arguing in good faith. I'm done talking to this bozo.
EDIT: Good call, Yod. Forgot where I was posting for a second.
And I didn't really tell him to die. Just that I was, you know...waiting for it to happen.
Honestly, with the tone of your first e-mail, I'm surprised he wrote back. I wouldn't have.
Posts
Here's the email I got back from Sen. Stacey Campfield after I told him he was a silly man for presenting and passing such silly laws in my home state.
> While I appreciate your passion, I still feel it is a parents responsibility to decide when a child is ready to grasp such a complex issue as sexuality and what they want to tell the child about that complex subject. All children developed mentally at different rates. I do not feel a teacher with an agenda (Be it pro or con) is the appropriate person to decide for the entire class just because they may think one way or another on an issue and want to espouse it. I doubt you would want a teacher who said homosexuality is evil, dirty and wrong because they felt it was appropriate and that is what they thought the children needed to hear. We are falling behind the rest of the world in math and science amongst other things. This will be just one less issue they have to worry about.
>
> Yours in service,
>
> Sen. Stacey Campfield
One of these has the implicit threat of harm to a person or their family, the other doesn't.
accident/uncontrollable action -> crime of passion -> for profit/hate crime -> undermine justice system/government.
In terms of those three, I can't even figure out which is worst, they cover the gambit of undermining state control to the Holocaust to strait people not even being allowed to use the word gay without getting death threats.
What is the impression people get from the album title from Lil B? It sounds like it could have just been trying to piss people off, but I can't really see doing something so risky without actually wanting to set up a debate about the issue in the rap community.
Good on him as far as I'm concerned.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
If it existed within an optimal social framework where surgery was not seen as some kind of all-important dividing line, the question wouldn't arise.
Outside the issue of gay marriage, I'm not sure there are too many instances where the law would need to intervene.
Some examples, maybe?
I don't see how anyone could peg that girl as transgendered. Anyway, it's good to see she's recovered.
It just seems odd.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I still think it's going to be problematic if one tip-toes in that manner regarding sexuality around children, but it's a logical response on his part.
Specific permutations of it aren't more or less confusing, just more or less acceptable to particular worldviews.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
There's a reason I use him as an avatar on the STO forums.
If you're talking about hate-crime laws it doesn't matter; the motivation of the criminal is the issue, not whether they were "right". If a neo-Nazi beats up a guy for being Jewish, it doesn't matter if it later turns out the neo-Nazi was wrong and the guy was really Presbyterian.
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
right. several of the kids that committed suicide lately were straight, it's just that their peers perceived them as gay. What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of that hatred is projected on straight people, and so homophobia affects just about everyone negatively, not just gays.
That guy... I love George Takei, that guy is always so cheery. I never recognized him in Heroes because he was scowling in that show. I seriously have trouble recognizing him when he's not smiling.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
Takei has done more good for showing the world that it's okay to be "Takei" than most will ever know.
As a regular on the Howard Stern show, he is the voice of a person with a stable marriage, good friends, capable of rolling with the punches and laughing that the circus sideshow that is Stern's studio... when you can reach an audience like that and become a celebrity to them... you have brought awareness to how people aren't so different to a group of people who could really stand (in general, not all who listen) to gain a little acceptance.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
George is gay in several definitions of the word. Great guy.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I was trying to figure out if "we thought she was a man peeping in the ladies room, that's why we beat her ass" would work as a defense to get it from a hate crime to simple assault. In your analogy, if a neo-Nazi (who for argument sake hasn't done anything illegal despite his shitty worldview) beats up a guy for breaking into his house and it turns out the burglar is jewish, is it a hate crime?
Hell, there's a movie plot based on pretty much exactly what you stated only with a black guy instead of a Jew. American History X, black guy breaks in, neo nazi chases him, beats him up and curbstomps him.
1) Sorta. It's not that it's a defense, as that the prosecution has to prove the motivation/intent. So "we thought it was a guy peeping" is evidence that the defendants were not acting out of transphobia; it's not really a defense per se. (Of course, whether it's persuasive evidence is another thing.)
2) No, it's not a hate crime.
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
You might call the cops or have him kicked out of the establishment, but it is not even CLOSE to defending your house from a burglar.
Right, but the poster's trying to figure out whether or not that's "mere" assault or bias-motivated assault.
Of course, the more I think about this, the more I think that hate crimes might be argued against based on how well someone passes :?
Or at least telling homophobic basketball players that he may not like them, but they like him.
Not the history books in my state, apparently.
Here's the entire email chain I've had with Senator Stacey. Notice the non-response at the very end. How helpful of him to give me no answer whatsoever.
Me
I cannot wait for people like you to learn some sense, leave office and/or die off as you get older. This world will become a much better place without hateful bigots like you in it.
Him
Yours in service,
Sen. Stacey Campfield
Me
Now don't get me wrong. Younger children in grades kindergarten through perhaps 2nd or 3rd grade, upon calling another child "fag" or some other slur, can be told not to say it by a teacher and will likely listen when the teacher says "because I said so". But once they start getting a little older and gaining some critical thinking skills, those children are going to start asking "why?"..."Why, Mrs. Smith, is that a bad word?". And the teacher will not be able to answer the question properly. Just saying, "Because I said so" isn't going to work. Children need reasons for discipline as they grow older and you are undermining a teacher's ability to say, "You can't say fag because it's a homophobic slur and, on top of that, bullying is wrong". You are basically allowing homosexual students to be bullied and are taking power away from teachers to try and stop it.
And what if two children are beginning to develop emotional feelings that are different from the people around them in, say...grades 6, 7 and 8? These are important developmental times for a child and, again, you bill makes it to where they can't speak to so much as a school counselor about what is going on in their lives. Isn't that what a school counselor is for, Senator? To be there for the children that are having a difficult time getting through school mentally and emotionally? School is hard enough on children without you attempting to make it ever more so.
http://minnesotaindependent.com/80582/haylee-fentress-paige-moravetz-bullying-suicide
Is this really what you want to start happening in Tennessee schools? Homosexual kids (or kids simply perceived to be homosexual by others) are killing themselves at an alarming rate in this country and, while I find your legislation ridiculous, but I don't think you honestly want more children to start committing suicide all over Tennessee grade schools and high schools. But I promise you that this legislation is going to make that stat rise as the years go by. You are simply digging a deeper hole for these already confused and helpless students. I hope, for your sake, that you can deal with that.
Him
Stacey
It's like...dude, that's not even scratching the surface of what you need to be talking to me about. It's not an answer. Why do you suck at your job?
As for the content personally I think framing this as a 'makes bullying easier to get away with' issue is the wrong approach, precisely because then the homophobes will respond with attempts to make it harder to get away with bullying.
Bullying isn't the problem here. It's a problem, yes, but regarding this specifically it's a symptom of the greater issue at hand, which is of course the blatant acceptance of homophobia and ostracizing of anyone who doesn't conform to a WASP worldview. Saying 'this will make it harder for teachers to stop bullying' isn't addressing the core problem, what you should be saying is 'this will make it clear to kids that it is not okay to be gay, that they should be ashamed of it and that they should think something is wrong with themselves'.
If you're going to keep replying to him (and you should!) I would suggest referencing recent teen suicides due to homophobia. To me that's the most compelling issue at hand, and I think even the most bigoted parents would rather their kids be gay than kill themselves. While I'm not suggesting that all gay kids commit suicide it is clearly a problem we face in our society and this legislation moves us in the wrong direction. These kids need the support of their teachers and school officials for those times when they can't get the support they need at home (or at church or the Boy Scouts or whatever else).
That's just my opinion. Also it's probably a good idea not to start things off by saying you think the other guy should die.
I basically just told him that his last email wasn't even the point of what I was trying to discuss with him and that he obviously wasn't arguing in good faith. I'm done talking to this bozo.
EDIT: Good call, Yod. Forgot where I was posting for a second.
And I didn't really tell him to die. Just that I was, you know...waiting for it to happen.
Honestly, with the tone of your first e-mail, I'm surprised he wrote back. I wouldn't have.
No offense, but... yeesh.