I'm going to retract my previous statements and say no, games should not feature characters that are bisexual or homosexual.
They should also not feature characters that are heterosexual. Or asexual.
In other words, drop the dumb love shit altogether, especially in RPGs where an otherwise good story can be tarnished by dumb love/protective/unreal altruistic plot crap. I want my characters to fight, not fuck.
Baby with the bathwater. There are a few JRPGs with strong romance subplots that work in favor of the story (notably Shadow Hearts 1 & 2). Chances are, a game with an inane love interest is going to have inane plotting, dialogue, and characterization overall.
And if you're also including Western-style RPGs there, I couldn't disagree more. If the game lets the player create a character and play out that character's personality, arbitrarily excluding one fundamental facet of human relationships is a ripoff. Unless you're talking about Diablo-style hack-and-slash games, but there really shouldn't be any plot in those at all outside of brief, skippable cutscenes.
It wasn't self loathing. He was out and proud but hated camp men. He would effectively stand in the middle of town on a Saturday night and say, "I'm gay. Who wants to fight me."
Just as a sidenote, this is not cool behavior.
No, but it amused me in a kind of "what the fuck?" manner.
I'm going to retract my previous statements and say no, games should not feature characters that are bisexual or homosexual.
They should also not feature characters that are heterosexual. Or asexual.
In other words, drop the dumb love shit altogether, especially in RPGs where an otherwise good story can be tarnished by dumb love/protective/unreal altruistic plot crap. I want my characters to fight, not fuck.
Baby with the bathwater. There are a few JRPGs with strong romance subplots that work in favor of the story (notably Shadow Hearts 1 & 2). Chances are, a game with an inane love interest is going to have inane plotting, dialogue, and characterization overall.
And if you're also including Western-style RPGs there, I couldn't disagree more. If the game lets the player create a character and play out that character's personality, arbitrarily excluding one fundamental facet of human relationships is a ripoff. Unless you're talking about Diablo-style hack-and-slash games, but there really shouldn't be any plot in those at all outside of brief, skippable cutscenes.
There are a few JRPGs that do it right. However almost ALL of them have some crappy romantic subplot and a vast majority of them are stupid.
Same goes for ARPGs. Not for nothing, but the "development" of your relationship in KOTOR was asinine and cheesy.
How many realistic heterosexual relationships are there in video-games? I'm not optimistic.
Yes. It's like the people who write RPGs with romantic elements have never been in a fucking relationship in their life. Here's a line you'll never see in an RPG:
"I know - I've developed feelings for you, too. But with the world in danger, we really don't have time to explore this. We've been in dangerous positions before, and you know I'm willing to risk my life for you. That hasn't changed. I won't turn down a kiss for luck, but we need to be concerned with making sure the world has a future before we worry about our own future."
Exactly! I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "..." and "Oh, it's nothing!" are lines that I never, ever, want to fucking see in another game.
Actually, this thread does make me reconsider the sexuality of some of the heroes in my long standing project... There is at least one character and more than a handful of NPCs who could be homosexuals without being "gay" or making a huge point of it. This exchange just popped into my head:
"Well, Varren, you're quite the ladies' man, aren't you?"
"I'm more of a man's man."
And just leave it at that. A sort of quietly comical line to those in-the-know. Most of the gay people I've met seem to drop little hints to gauge the reaction of others, not just blurt out "I'm gay" or "hey, check out that dude's ass!"
things I always hate about any videogame/tv/movie romantic relationships is that everyone never says shit about their feelings.
The polar opposite of teen shows, where kids talk about their feelings like they were fucking trained psychologists. Either that or my sister just watches absolutely all shows where the guy will spend 5 minutes detailing his feelings, as if anyone really talks like that.
There is at least one character and more than a handful of NPCs who could be homosexuals without being "gay"
Huh?
He means you can be homosexual without being flaming gay
Yeah, poor choice of words on my part. I meant a homosexual who is not a living gay joke or a gay character shoehorned into something for diversity's sake.
things I always hate about any videogame/tv/movie romantic relationships is that everyone never says shit about their feelings.
The polar opposite of teen shows, where kids talk about their feelings like they were fucking trained psychologists. Either that or my sister just watches absolutely all shows where the guy will spend 5 minutes detailing his feelings, as if anyone really talks like that.
I want a healthy middle.
That would require male heroes who aren't shy and emotionally stunted fourteen year olds and love interests who actually have a good reason for being interested. (I do not know of any female hero-based love stories in games, sadly).
It would be kind of nice if, during one of the major boss battles, the hero says "Hey, Miranda! When we're done saving the world, you wanna go out for dinner and a movie?"
Not for nothing, but the "development" of your relationship in KOTOR was asinine and cheesy.
Maybe, but not as obnoxious as the (non-romantic) relationship with Carth. The fact that BioWare has difficulty writing subtlety into relationships (not just romantic ones) doesn't make romance in video games inherently shitty.
I know it's been said in the thread that "gays should exist in video games because gays exist," but does anyone have any hard numbers on what the gay US or gay world population is?
I remember when the movie U-571 came out and they through a black guy in the main cast. Now, I'm all for diversity, but it was clearly "shoehorned" in for diversity's sake. I'm thinking that, despite the influx of gays in the media, the population isn't big enough to just be something incidental to a game. I'm thinking no matter how it's done, it's going to feel forced.
I know it's been said in the thread that "gays should exist in video games because gays exist," but does anyone have any hard numbers on what the gay US or gay world population is?
I remember when the movie U-571 came out and they through a black guy in the main cast. Now, I'm all for diversity, but it was clearly "shoehorned" in for diversity's sake. I'm thinking that, despite the influx of gays in the media, the population isn't big enough to just be something incidental to a game. I'm thinking no matter how it's done, it's going to feel forced.
Abortions for some, miniature American Flags for others! I don't believe anyone here is demanding a queer in every game. Regardless of population ratios and media exposure, though, the world simply isn't as white/heterosexual as video games tend to portray it. Look at the examples in this thread so far. Do you really believe the addition of a homosexual romance alongside the other options in Jade Empire feels forced?
I know it's been said in the thread that "gays should exist in video games because gays exist," but does anyone have any hard numbers on what the gay US or gay world population is?
I remember when the movie U-571 came out and they through a black guy in the main cast. Now, I'm all for diversity, but it was clearly "shoehorned" in for diversity's sake. I'm thinking that, despite the influx of gays in the media, the population isn't big enough to just be something incidental to a game. I'm thinking no matter how it's done, it's going to feel forced.
5% is an okay ballpark figure. 3% to be on the safe side.
It's probably safe to say that by those numbers you should have met hundreds of gay people in the games you play. Not that anyone's counting.
Didn't Orson Scott Card write Advent Rising? The Ender series is great, but the story for that game was B-movie tripe.
Honestly, the only thing I know about him that isn't in his How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy book, is that he is an asshole of some sort. Sexist I think.
I know it's been said in the thread that "gays should exist in video games because gays exist," but does anyone have any hard numbers on what the gay US or gay world population is?
I remember when the movie U-571 came out and they through a black guy in the main cast. Now, I'm all for diversity, but it was clearly "shoehorned" in for diversity's sake. I'm thinking that, despite the influx of gays in the media, the population isn't big enough to just be something incidental to a game. I'm thinking no matter how it's done, it's going to feel forced.
5% is an okay ballpark figure. 3% to be on the safe side.
It's probably safe to say that by those numbers you should have met hundreds of gay people in the games you play. Not that anyone's counting.
Maybe you have, though. Being "gay" isn't necessarily completely visible. It's not very important, that's my point. For all you know, Marcus from Gears of War might be game. His sexual preferences are never explored in the game. And it doesn't matter, either.
I know it's been said in the thread that "gays should exist in video games because gays exist," but does anyone have any hard numbers on what the gay US or gay world population is?
I remember when the movie U-571 came out and they through a black guy in the main cast. Now, I'm all for diversity, but it was clearly "shoehorned" in for diversity's sake. I'm thinking that, despite the influx of gays in the media, the population isn't big enough to just be something incidental to a game. I'm thinking no matter how it's done, it's going to feel forced.
5% is an okay ballpark figure. 3% to be on the safe side.
It's probably safe to say that by those numbers you should have met hundreds of gay people in the games you play. Not that anyone's counting.
Maybe you have, though. Being "gay" isn't necessarily completely visible. It's not very important, that's my point. For all you know, Marcus from Gears of War might be game. His sexual preferences are never explored in the game. And it doesn't matter, either.
True, but what of the myriad games out there where sexual orientation is broached? We're not talking about Gears of War here.
What I'm saying is that sexuality actually isn't present in most games, so it is erroneous to assume that homosexuals aren't represented in games. Adrien suggests that we should have "seen more gay characters," and I'm saying that we may have.
I know it's been said in the thread that "gays should exist in video games because gays exist," but does anyone have any hard numbers on what the gay US or gay world population is?
I remember when the movie U-571 came out and they through a black guy in the main cast. Now, I'm all for diversity, but it was clearly "shoehorned" in for diversity's sake. I'm thinking that, despite the influx of gays in the media, the population isn't big enough to just be something incidental to a game. I'm thinking no matter how it's done, it's going to feel forced.
5% is an okay ballpark figure. 3% to be on the safe side.
It's probably safe to say that by those numbers you should have met hundreds of gay people in the games you play. Not that anyone's counting.
Maybe you have, though. Being "gay" isn't necessarily completely visible. It's not very important, that's my point. For all you know, Marcus from Gears of War might be game. His sexual preferences are never explored in the game. And it doesn't matter, either.
True, but what of the myriad games out there where sexual orientation is broached? We're not talking about Gears of War here.
beat'd
Very few games actually offer anything but a mockery of sexual orientation. I'd say there are a negligible number of games that even portray heterosexuality.
OK. How about my other point? The actual representation of heterosexuality in games is almost nil. Almost every video game I've seen that "broaches" sexuality or characters with an obvious/visible sexual orientation portray heterosexuality as a caricature, or an outright mockery. Like in God of War II. Okay, Kratos is heterosexual. That much is obvious when he breaks through a wall so two girls can double up on him. :roll: Most of the time it is out of place and not at all indicative of reality. Are people really concerned with having their homosexuality equally or even proportionally mocked within video games? Because I've yet to see any real sexuality or even a believable relationship of any sexual orientation in any game. Or, at least, very few. Someone mentioned Max Payne. I think it was a little silly there too, but I'll concede. Still, that's one game. Most of them really don't portray heterosexuality, they just portray some silly nonsensical, testosterone-driven version of it. I don't know, I'm not gay, but I don't think I'd want that reciprocated with homosexual characters just so we could be equally misrepresented in video games.
Abortions for some, miniature American Flags for others! I don't believe anyone here is demanding a queer in every game. Regardless of population ratios and media exposure, though, the world simply isn't as white/heterosexual as video games tend to portray it. Look at the examples in this thread so far. Do you really believe the addition of a homosexual romance alongside the other options in Jade Empire feels forced?
The reason I asked for the numbers on the gay population is because the world just may be as heterosexual as video games tend to portray it, and I'm trying to focus on games where sexuality might matter. Because it's rather uncommon, I'm not sure that it can be featured and be incidental.
I can't really speak for Jade Empire because I haven't played it. I could also never get into the Final Fantasy games, no matter how hard I tried.
I'd love to say that video games are the great equalizer, but they're not. Before video games could handle sexuality properly, they'd have to be able to handle race and sex properly. What was the last game that you've seen with a female character that didn't have huge boobs or legs that went up to her neck or something of the sort? When was the last game that you saw a black character who wasn't the expert at demolitions, had the biggest gun in human history, or was less muscular/badass than the white counterpart?
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, but I think it'll be a long time before we get there.
Well, like, take Frances Coen from Pandora Tomorrow. She could have mentioned that she had a kid, or that she majored in business. Instead she's a lesbian. It's not really important to the game that she is, but then she's not really important to the game. It's just another little thing to make the story that much more interesting.
Never mind that from that moment forward I can only think of her as "Sam Fisher's lesbian handler".
Which is a turn of phrase which goes strange places depending on inflection.
Abortions for some, miniature American Flags for others! I don't believe anyone here is demanding a queer in every game. Regardless of population ratios and media exposure, though, the world simply isn't as white/heterosexual as video games tend to portray it. Look at the examples in this thread so far. Do you really believe the addition of a homosexual romance alongside the other options in Jade Empire feels forced?
The reason I asked for the numbers on the gay population is because the world just may be as heterosexual as video games tend to portray it, and I'm trying to focus on games where sexuality might matter. Because it's rather uncommon, I'm not sure that it can be featured and be incidental.
I can't really speak for Jade Empire because I haven't played it. I could also never get into the Final Fantasy games, no matter how hard I tried.
I'd love to say that video games are the great equalizer, but they're not. Before video games could handle sexuality properly, they'd have to be able to handle race and sex properly. What was the last game that you've seen with a female character that didn't have huge boobs or legs that went up to her neck or something of the sort? When was the last game that you saw a black character who wasn't the expert at demolitions, had the biggest gun in human history, or was less muscular/badass than the white counterpart?
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, but I think it'll be a long time before we get there.
A progressive approach to sexual orientation isn't mutually exclusive to race and sex. I certainly wouldn't refer to homosexuality as uncommon, either. Its prominence varies greatly depending on region, but that's largely a social acceptance issue.
I was thinking today how Half-Life 2 features both women and non-caucasian races in positive roles. Breen is a pretty snappy dresser, maybe Valve have a few plot twists in store. :winky:
Telemachus on
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
What was the last game that you've seen with a female character that didn't have huge boobs or legs that went up to her neck or something of the sort? When was the last game that you saw a black character who wasn't the expert at demolitions, had the biggest gun in human history, or was less muscular/badass than the white counterpart?
Jade from Beyond GOod and Evil and... er... yeah you're right about black characters in video games. The only ones I can really remember offhand are Cole from Gears and Barrett from Final Fantasy. Dude even had a big-ass gun in place of his hand.
A progressive approach to sexual orientation isn't mutually exclusive to race and sex. I certainly wouldn't refer to homosexuality as uncommon, either. Its prominence varies greatly depending on region, but that's largely a social acceptance issue.
I don't know, I'd have to say 3-5% is uncommon. It's definitely uncommon enough to be a major point of any game that features it. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, and I'm sure it will be. I just expect it to not be done in a "good" way.
A progressive approach to sexual orientation isn't mutually exclusive to race and sex. I certainly wouldn't refer to homosexuality as uncommon, either. Its prominence varies greatly depending on region, but that's largely a social acceptance issue.
I don't know, I'd have to say 3-5% is uncommon. It's definitely uncommon enough to be a major point of any game that features it. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, and I'm sure it will be. I just expect it to not be done in a "good" way.
This sounds suspiciously exactly the point I made way earlier in this thread where I was talking about how there's a radical difference between equality in the real world and equality in literature, in so far as adding more information to characters outside of what is needed tends to change the narrative.
A progressive approach to sexual orientation isn't mutually exclusive to race and sex. I certainly wouldn't refer to homosexuality as uncommon, either. Its prominence varies greatly depending on region, but that's largely a social acceptance issue.
I don't know, I'd have to say 3-5% is uncommon. It's definitely uncommon enough to be a major point of any game that features it. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, and I'm sure it will be. I just expect it to not be done in a "good" way.
This sounds suspiciously exactly the point I made way earlier in this thread where I was talking about how there's a radical difference between equality in the real world and equality in literature, in so far as adding more information to characters outside of what is needed tends to change the narrative.
Yeah, it'd be cool to see more homosexual characters in RPG games . . . They can have an obviously gay character without resorting to stereotypes. Just start out with the main character and his boyfriend living together and then his boyfriend gets killed by the mob or forces of darkness or whatever and he (the main character) goes on a quest for revenge or to bring his boyfriend back from the dead, etc, etc. Or the main character could have been raised by a gay couple and the first save point is at his dads' house.
Posts
No, that's still true, but it's also true that a large number of videogames are designed with American, or at least, western tastes in mind.
And if you're also including Western-style RPGs there, I couldn't disagree more. If the game lets the player create a character and play out that character's personality, arbitrarily excluding one fundamental facet of human relationships is a ripoff. Unless you're talking about Diablo-style hack-and-slash games, but there really shouldn't be any plot in those at all outside of brief, skippable cutscenes.
No, but it amused me in a kind of "what the fuck?" manner.
There are a few JRPGs that do it right. However almost ALL of them have some crappy romantic subplot and a vast majority of them are stupid.
Same goes for ARPGs. Not for nothing, but the "development" of your relationship in KOTOR was asinine and cheesy.
Yes. It's like the people who write RPGs with romantic elements have never been in a fucking relationship in their life. Here's a line you'll never see in an RPG:
"I know - I've developed feelings for you, too. But with the world in danger, we really don't have time to explore this. We've been in dangerous positions before, and you know I'm willing to risk my life for you. That hasn't changed. I won't turn down a kiss for luck, but we need to be concerned with making sure the world has a future before we worry about our own future."
Wait... what? I know this is like... 7 pages back, but what? What does this mean?
Random Hero: I think about her all the time I wonder if she thinks about me?
Just go hey hot healing girl after we save a world want to go out for a bite to eat?
Actually, this thread does make me reconsider the sexuality of some of the heroes in my long standing project... There is at least one character and more than a handful of NPCs who could be homosexuals without being "gay" or making a huge point of it. This exchange just popped into my head:
"Well, Varren, you're quite the ladies' man, aren't you?"
"I'm more of a man's man."
And just leave it at that. A sort of quietly comical line to those in-the-know. Most of the gay people I've met seem to drop little hints to gauge the reaction of others, not just blurt out "I'm gay" or "hey, check out that dude's ass!"
Huh?
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
He means you can be homosexual without being flaming gay
I want a healthy middle.
Yeah, poor choice of words on my part. I meant a homosexual who is not a living gay joke or a gay character shoehorned into something for diversity's sake.
That would require male heroes who aren't shy and emotionally stunted fourteen year olds and love interests who actually have a good reason for being interested. (I do not know of any female hero-based love stories in games, sadly).
It would be kind of nice if, during one of the major boss battles, the hero says "Hey, Miranda! When we're done saving the world, you wanna go out for dinner and a movie?"
Also, Max Payne 2 did "self-destructive" pretty well.
Well, maybe we should. You can't blame the industry for shit writing if we continue to count it as a minor element of even RPGs.
I remember when the movie U-571 came out and they through a black guy in the main cast. Now, I'm all for diversity, but it was clearly "shoehorned" in for diversity's sake. I'm thinking that, despite the influx of gays in the media, the population isn't big enough to just be something incidental to a game. I'm thinking no matter how it's done, it's going to feel forced.
I blame the industry for hiring shit writers and the audience for buying games written by shit writers.
--
Ragga: Forced would be if you had fricking Team Rainbow in every video game.
Didn't Orson Scott Card write Advent Rising? The Ender series is great, but the story for that game was B-movie tripe.
Abortions for some, miniature American Flags for others! I don't believe anyone here is demanding a queer in every game. Regardless of population ratios and media exposure, though, the world simply isn't as white/heterosexual as video games tend to portray it. Look at the examples in this thread so far. Do you really believe the addition of a homosexual romance alongside the other options in Jade Empire feels forced?
5% is an okay ballpark figure. 3% to be on the safe side.
It's probably safe to say that by those numbers you should have met hundreds of gay people in the games you play. Not that anyone's counting.
Honestly, the only thing I know about him that isn't in his How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy book, is that he is an asshole of some sort. Sexist I think.
Maybe you have, though. Being "gay" isn't necessarily completely visible. It's not very important, that's my point. For all you know, Marcus from Gears of War might be game. His sexual preferences are never explored in the game. And it doesn't matter, either.
Hence the RPG-oriented talk.
True, but what of the myriad games out there where sexual orientation is broached? We're not talking about Gears of War here.
beat'd
Very few games actually offer anything but a mockery of sexual orientation. I'd say there are a negligible number of games that even portray heterosexuality.
They may also all be in to bestiality.
It doesn't really mean anything of it's not made known.
Things in games only matter when you KNOW about them.
You can't just assume that the "gay quota" is made up in Lemmings.
I can't really speak for Jade Empire because I haven't played it. I could also never get into the Final Fantasy games, no matter how hard I tried.
I'd love to say that video games are the great equalizer, but they're not. Before video games could handle sexuality properly, they'd have to be able to handle race and sex properly. What was the last game that you've seen with a female character that didn't have huge boobs or legs that went up to her neck or something of the sort? When was the last game that you saw a black character who wasn't the expert at demolitions, had the biggest gun in human history, or was less muscular/badass than the white counterpart?
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, but I think it'll be a long time before we get there.
Never mind that from that moment forward I can only think of her as "Sam Fisher's lesbian handler".
Which is a turn of phrase which goes strange places depending on inflection.
A progressive approach to sexual orientation isn't mutually exclusive to race and sex. I certainly wouldn't refer to homosexuality as uncommon, either. Its prominence varies greatly depending on region, but that's largely a social acceptance issue.
I was thinking today how Half-Life 2 features both women and non-caucasian races in positive roles. Breen is a pretty snappy dresser, maybe Valve have a few plot twists in store. :winky:
Jade from Beyond GOod and Evil and... er... yeah you're right about black characters in video games. The only ones I can really remember offhand are Cole from Gears and Barrett from Final Fantasy. Dude even had a big-ass gun in place of his hand.
This sounds suspiciously exactly the point I made way earlier in this thread where I was talking about how there's a radical difference between equality in the real world and equality in literature, in so far as adding more information to characters outside of what is needed tends to change the narrative.