I usually call out my 3 roles I'm comfortable with (Jungle/Top/Support). If people pick me out of them, they can't rage when I suck at AP mid. I actually had that happen, and 3 of my other teammates defended me, as I had called it during bans. You can't call a specific role, but you can ask for it.
The key to not raging is to just take a deep breath and always find something fun about the game. I had a game on my smurf (who I play while drinking or otherwise not feeling super-serious bizness) with a horrific ryze who fed a mejais LeBlanc 20 stacks by the 15 minute mark while whining she was OP. I just focused on jungling hard (was Yi) and getting kills where I could. We lost, but I learned some fun things about positioning.
SaldonasSee you space cowboy...Registered Userregular
Malphite is definitely just okay at jungling. He's pretty mana intensive, and I almost think you need to run some move speed quints or something on him, I always felt like I could never catch anyone, even after using his Q.
Malphite is definitely just okay at jungling. He's pretty mana intensive, and I almost think you need to run some move speed quints or something on him, I always felt like I could never catch anyone, even after using his Q.
I think that the issue most junglers have is that they blow their gap closer/slow/root/whatever to try and get TO the target in the lane instead of coming in at a good angle and walking up to the enemy first and only using the slow/root/gap closer when they try to get away from you. If you come in at the right angle from the jungle you can make them blow their escape/flash before you ever use your exhaust/flash/closer.
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Skarner also requires you farm like a boss and you can recognize opportunities to catch their carries out with flash ult/drag. I don't like him currently, as he doesn't bring much to the teamfight after ulting unless you build a mallet or Triforce. People also don't really get how to play with him on your team.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Malphite is definitely just okay at jungling. He's pretty mana intensive, and I almost think you need to run some move speed quints or something on him, I always felt like I could never catch anyone, even after using his Q.
You help top because it's one of the easiest lanes to start deathlooping off a single successful gank. Top and mid are also the easier lanes to take the tower with after a gank, freeing that guy to start roaming and helping the rest of your team as necessary. Bot lane has the support there to keep their carry vaguely safe and let him farm under turret even when down a kill or two. No, you don't go there while dragon is about to be contested, don't be silly. They shouldn't be doing 4v anything on bot, as that predicates your mid is letting their mid roam. In that scenario, every lane is failing, surrender at 20.
1) We aren't talking about "helping" top you goose. Yea, you typically help top first because its easier[fewer wards larger advantage]. We are talking about "which lane to save if you have to choose". And the lane to save if you have to choose is bottom.
2) Bottom tower is typically the easiest to take after a gank because you have more people there to attack it. It is simply the lane you least want to have the first[but not second] tower
3) Mids roam when they want to roam, its not like you can prevent the enemy mid from leaving lane. [without engaging in a risky maneuver when you can't see their jungler] The best you can do is follow them where they're going or push the lane to their tower when they go[which is also risky if you can't see their jungler]. So yea, you do pretty much get 4v3 or 4v2. I mean shit, if anything bottom will push to the tower[which they can do because they're winning] and then go pressure mid.
4) We already know that if you're losing both bottom and top you're losing the game. And the winning team is going to use their leverage to make you lose all the lanes. But there are still optimal solutions to shitty situations.
I haven't seen Nocturne since coming back (Or a great many of the new champs, for that matter!) Are people afraid of the dark, or is the dark simply not scary anymore? He was my favorite Jungler, it was always so satisfying to provide surprise annihilation to the enemy team. I miss the Global Ult, but that was definitely overpowered in every sense of it. Looking at the patch history, looks like they really nerfed his Leash/Fear, so maybe that's the cause?
I guess I just always saw him as a Warwick with more utility / control.
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SaldonasSee you space cowboy...Registered Userregular
Malphite is definitely just okay at jungling. He's pretty mana intensive, and I almost think you need to run some move speed quints or something on him, I always felt like I could never catch anyone, even after using his Q.
Oh man, I'm Officially done playing support in solo queue.
A trio queued together and picked fizz, gp and hec all flash ignite. I had already picked taric first thinking they can pick carries around support and not have to worry about who does what. My logic was mistaken.
Load in and go bot with hec who keeps pinging for me to go top because it's him/gp bottom. Gp isn't loaded in btw. I basically ignore it and proceed to support it up. He gets mid health by lv 2, then at lv 3 complains tha I'm a noob for not leveling heal. Then the rest of lanig is made up of him talking about how taric is shit for a chamP and does no damage. Then he decides one of my random harasses is the time for him to charge in while I'm already moving back to our tower, by the time I get back to him he's dead and I get killed trying to help. Nonstop comPlaining after that. Our mid Vic gOt pulled into it for defending me and I'm like 1/4/19 with the threesome all complaining how I don't do anything.
How the shit do people get this hit a level? I had the other team defending me I all against my own teammates
I still get rather surprised seeing all this Mundo Jungle love recently. I must be playing against really poor Mundos, because I rarely play a game where me or my team doesn't shit all over him before he can get a Warmogs and so forth.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Malphite is definitely just okay at jungling. He's pretty mana intensive, and I almost think you need to run some move speed quints or something on him, I always felt like I could never catch anyone, even after using his Q.
What's it like to be so wrong it hurts?
Please explain.
Malphite's jungle isn't very mana intensive at all. I don't know where that's coming from. He clears pretty swiftly with a couple Es here or there and he takes basically no damage from the jungle, even at level one (seriously, try a cloth armor 2 pot start, you'll have one pot left over). With a point in W he does automatic aoe damage on every attack without spending any mana at all. A philostone is about the only mana regen I ever find that I need.
His ganking is a little weak pre six, but it becomes fantastic post six. Also, with so much armor, Malphite can dive and tank turrets pretty early on in the game. Ulting in, hitting E and Q is a lot of debuffing going on and it really hurts any autoattacker. Malphite can also invade pretty strongly since he can GTFO very easily by hitting the jungler (or hell, even a minion) with his Q if trouble comes, and he can clear a given camp very quickly with E and activating W.
Malphite is an amazing jungler especially if your enemy team is heavy on AD (autoattackers especially). He's tanky, he doesn't give a shit, provides useful debuffs, and has fantastic initation. Even if you build him tanky, his damage isn't that terrible since his E gets an armor ratio. Malphite can mercilessly chase down and slowly batter the shit out of fleeing enemies.
The only character off the top of my head that performs the tanky support with ridiculous initiation role better is probably Maokai, and Malphite is still probably a better pick versus certain comps.
malphite's jungle doesn't scale well unless you are spamming e(mana intensive) or buy wriggles. unless wriggles doesn't splash with his w anymore, I know it used to and you could one shot creep waves.
I still get rather surprised seeing all this Mundo Jungle love recently. I must be playing against really poor Mundos, because I rarely play a game where me or my team doesn't shit all over him before he can get a Warmogs and so forth.
Mundo only does well in the jungle when he is counter jungling. His ganks are shit early on (Cleaver too easy to dodge) and he is too squishy even with his ult without more health/resists.
Where he shines is in being able to shut down the enemy jungler, he can duel most of them pretty well and can speedily take their buffs/camps. He should be spending most of his time controlling all the buffs in the game, keeping tracks of when they are spawning and making sure he is there to take them each time. Be sure to inform your team when the buffs are coming up so they can put pressure on their lanes while he takes the enemy buffs.
I am fast learning that you really need to think about your jungler in terms of how they work with your team comp. Mundo can't gank very well, but if your laner has a form of root/stun or even a slow then suddenly mundo has much better ganks. Mundo is also great for diving top champs under their tower. He takes the tower damage, blows his ult and gives the top laner enough time to finish the enemy off. (Works better at higher levels obviously.)
Conversely if your top or mid lacks decent CC go for a ganking jungler like Lee Sin, Nocturne, Maokai or Jax for instance and focus more on getting your mid and top to win instead of shutting down their jungler.
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I still get rather surprised seeing all this Mundo Jungle love recently. I must be playing against really poor Mundos, because I rarely play a game where me or my team doesn't shit all over him before he can get a Warmogs and so forth.
Mundo only does well in the jungle when he is counter jungling. His ganks are shit early on (Cleaver too easy to dodge) and he is too squishy even with his ult without more health/resists.
Where he shines is in being able to shut down the enemy jungler, he can duel most of them pretty well and can speedily take their buffs/camps. He should be spending most of his time controlling all the buffs in the game, keeping tracks of when they are spawning and making sure he is there to take them each time. Be sure to inform your team when the buffs are coming up so they can put pressure on their lanes while he takes the enemy buffs.
I am fast learning that you really need to think about your jungler in terms of how they work with your team comp. Mundo can't gank very well, but if your laner has a form of root/stun or even a slow then suddenly mundo has much better ganks. Mundo is also great for diving top champs under their tower. He takes the tower damage, blows his ult and gives the top laner enough time to finish the enemy off. (Works better at higher levels obviously.)
Conversely if your top or mid lacks decent CC go for a ganking jungler like Lee Sin, Nocturne, Maokai or Jax for instance and focus more on getting your mid and top to win instead of shutting down their jungler.
Team comp can be so important. Ideally you want:
1. Either mid or jungle wants blue, never both (IE, if you run amumu run kennen instead of karthus, if lee go the other way)
2. At least 1 single target hard CC, at least 1 AOE soft CC - both non-ult form.
3. 2 AP and 2 AD damagers
4. At least 1 dude with wriggles and attack speed.
I still get rather surprised seeing all this Mundo Jungle love recently. I must be playing against really poor Mundos, because I rarely play a game where me or my team doesn't shit all over him before he can get a Warmogs and so forth.
Mundo only does well in the jungle when he is counter jungling. His ganks are shit early on (Cleaver too easy to dodge) and he is too squishy even with his ult without more health/resists.
Where he shines is in being able to shut down the enemy jungler, he can duel most of them pretty well and can speedily take their buffs/camps. He should be spending most of his time controlling all the buffs in the game, keeping tracks of when they are spawning and making sure he is there to take them each time. Be sure to inform your team when the buffs are coming up so they can put pressure on their lanes while he takes the enemy buffs.
I am fast learning that you really need to think about your jungler in terms of how they work with your team comp. Mundo can't gank very well, but if your laner has a form of root/stun or even a slow then suddenly mundo has much better ganks. Mundo is also great for diving top champs under their tower. He takes the tower damage, blows his ult and gives the top laner enough time to finish the enemy off. (Works better at higher levels obviously.)
Conversely if your top or mid lacks decent CC go for a ganking jungler like Lee Sin, Nocturne, Maokai or Jax for instance and focus more on getting your mid and top to win instead of shutting down their jungler.
Team comp can be so important. Ideally you want:
1. Either mid or jungle wants blue, never both (IE, if you run amumu run kennen instead of karthus, if lee go the other way)
2. At least 1 single target hard CC, at least 1 AOE soft CC - both non-ult form.
3. 2 AP and 2 AD damagers
4. At least 1 dude with wriggles and attack speed.
It's even much more than that. For the longest time my regular group would pick teams exactly how you described, often counterpicking to win lanes. This worked very well for a long time, but then about 2-3 weeks ago we suddenly got a shitload better by developing specific team comps and focusing on mid/late game instead of laning all the time.
For example:
An AoE comp could be Galio mid, Vlad top, Riven jungle, Sivir + Leona bot.
A poke comp could be Kennen top (bonus of counter initiation), Xerath or Gragas mid, Mundo jungle, Caitlyn + janna bot (Janna brings more counter initiation, great cc, and more team speed for kiting. I Janna)
Building comps for specific purposes is SO MUCH FUN. Doesnt work well in solo queue, but 5 mans is where it's at anyways.
We could lose our lanes and still destroy them in teamfights. That would happen to us often enough before, but now it's us doing it and it really is the most fun thing ever.
I still get rather surprised seeing all this Mundo Jungle love recently. I must be playing against really poor Mundos, because I rarely play a game where me or my team doesn't shit all over him before he can get a Warmogs and so forth.
Mundo only does well in the jungle when he is counter jungling. His ganks are shit early on (Cleaver too easy to dodge) and he is too squishy even with his ult without more health/resists.
Where he shines is in being able to shut down the enemy jungler, he can duel most of them pretty well and can speedily take their buffs/camps. He should be spending most of his time controlling all the buffs in the game, keeping tracks of when they are spawning and making sure he is there to take them each time. Be sure to inform your team when the buffs are coming up so they can put pressure on their lanes while he takes the enemy buffs.
I am fast learning that you really need to think about your jungler in terms of how they work with your team comp. Mundo can't gank very well, but if your laner has a form of root/stun or even a slow then suddenly mundo has much better ganks. Mundo is also great for diving top champs under their tower. He takes the tower damage, blows his ult and gives the top laner enough time to finish the enemy off. (Works better at higher levels obviously.)
Conversely if your top or mid lacks decent CC go for a ganking jungler like Lee Sin, Nocturne, Maokai or Jax for instance and focus more on getting your mid and top to win instead of shutting down their jungler.
Team comp can be so important. Ideally you want:
1. Either mid or jungle wants blue, never both (IE, if you run amumu run kennen instead of karthus, if lee go the other way)
2. At least 1 single target hard CC, at least 1 AOE soft CC - both non-ult form.
3. 2 AP and 2 AD damagers
4. At least 1 dude with wriggles and attack speed.
It's even much more than that. For the longest time my regular group would pick teams exactly how you described, often counterpicking to win lanes. This worked very well for a long time, but then about 2-3 weeks ago we suddenly got a shitload better by developing specific team comps and focusing on mid/late game instead of laning all the time.
For example:
An AoE comp could be Galio mid, Vlad top, Riven jungle, Sivir + Leona bot.
A poke comp could be Kennen top (bonus of counter initiation), Xerath or Gragas mid, Mundo jungle, Caitlyn + janna bot (Janna brings more counter initiation, great cc, and more team speed for kiting. I Janna)
Building comps for specific purposes is SO MUCH FUN. Doesnt work well in solo queue, but 5 mans is where it's at anyways.
We could lose our lanes and still destroy them in teamfights. That would happen to us often enough before, but now it's us doing it and it really is the most fun thing ever.
I just really really really wanted to emphasize this because it is something I wholeheartedly believe and wish I could impress properly upon my regular group without them coming up with excuses as to why we need to focus on counter picking so much.
(To be fair to them, there ARE other issues at play as well, but I would still love to focus on building around our team and building specific compositions that complement eachother instead of always just trying to counterpick the enemy.)
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
We would win lanes but lose teamfights because our team lacked initiation, or a way to deal with poke, or a way to stop them from effectively initiating on us.
You have to go one step beyond "how do I win my lane" to "after I've won my lane, how are we going to convert that into winning the game?" You need a cohesive strategy that your champions are contributing to.
We would win lanes but lose teamfights because our team lacked initiation, or a way to deal with poke, or a way to stop them from effectively initiating on us.
You have to go one step beyond "how do I win my lane" to "after I've won my lane, how are we going to convert that into winning the game?" You need a cohesive strategy that your champions are contributing to.
On a side note Chaoshat, what is your rune setup for your above 80% Jax Jungle? and what do you do for mana?
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I still get rather surprised seeing all this Mundo Jungle love recently. I must be playing against really poor Mundos, because I rarely play a game where me or my team doesn't shit all over him before he can get a Warmogs and so forth.
Mundo only does well in the jungle when he is counter jungling. His ganks are shit early on (Cleaver too easy to dodge) and he is too squishy even with his ult without more health/resists.
Where he shines is in being able to shut down the enemy jungler, he can duel most of them pretty well and can speedily take their buffs/camps. He should be spending most of his time controlling all the buffs in the game, keeping tracks of when they are spawning and making sure he is there to take them each time. Be sure to inform your team when the buffs are coming up so they can put pressure on their lanes while he takes the enemy buffs.
I am fast learning that you really need to think about your jungler in terms of how they work with your team comp. Mundo can't gank very well, but if your laner has a form of root/stun or even a slow then suddenly mundo has much better ganks. Mundo is also great for diving top champs under their tower. He takes the tower damage, blows his ult and gives the top laner enough time to finish the enemy off. (Works better at higher levels obviously.)
Conversely if your top or mid lacks decent CC go for a ganking jungler like Lee Sin, Nocturne, Maokai or Jax for instance and focus more on getting your mid and top to win instead of shutting down their jungler.
Team comp can be so important. Ideally you want:
1. Either mid or jungle wants blue, never both (IE, if you run amumu run kennen instead of karthus, if lee go the other way)
2. At least 1 single target hard CC, at least 1 AOE soft CC - both non-ult form.
3. 2 AP and 2 AD damagers
4. At least 1 dude with wriggles and attack speed.
It's even much more than that. For the longest time my regular group would pick teams exactly how you described, often counterpicking to win lanes. This worked very well for a long time, but then about 2-3 weeks ago we suddenly got a shitload better by developing specific team comps and focusing on mid/late game instead of laning all the time.
For example:
An AoE comp could be Galio mid, Vlad top, Riven jungle, Sivir + Leona bot.
A poke comp could be Kennen top (bonus of counter initiation), Xerath or Gragas mid, Mundo jungle, Caitlyn + janna bot (Janna brings more counter initiation, great cc, and more team speed for kiting. I Janna)
Building comps for specific purposes is SO MUCH FUN. Doesnt work well in solo queue, but 5 mans is where it's at anyways.
We could lose our lanes and still destroy them in teamfights. That would happen to us often enough before, but now it's us doing it and it really is the most fun thing ever.
I just really really really wanted to emphasize this because it is something I wholeheartedly believe and wish I could impress properly upon my regular group without them coming up with excuses as to why we need to focus on counter picking so much.
From my experiences, it was often that if we won our lanes, we could just win the game or force a surrender at 20, regardless of team comp. Once in awhile, the enemy team knew their comp was good and they would drag out the game, making up the gold difference slowly, or at least making it so the % difference is smaller and smaller (5k difference at 20 minutes is HUGE, 5k at 40 minutes is nothing). We could win our lanes and lose the game. Our teams were often 'pick off' teams and lacked something major, like AoE cc, initiation, poke, etc. Good at something, but not great at it, and not well rounded enough to beat a specific comp.
If we lost our lanes, we often could not win the game, as we didn't pick a comp with a purpose. Like I mentioned above, we are now the ones that understand how to turn a game in our favour, and understand how to properly teamfight with certain configurations. We aren't pro, but our games got a lot better and more fun once we started doing that.
I'm a huge fan of Caitlyn now that I think I understand her role. She is much, much more than just a 'shutdown' laner like I thought she was.
Edit - The Caitlyn bit was thrown in to demonstrate how my views on champs have changed from laning to team comp. I avoided Cait because she seemed so one dimensional, but she isn't, I just didn't understand what you need to do to make her work. She might lose a 1v1 to someone like Graves or Vayne, but that's not her job, ever. Just like Ashe's role is not to 1v1. I need to rethink a lot of the ideas I have about different champs.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
Graves comin', yo.
I think this one doesn't really require discussion.
Comp-wise, yeah, it's important to either be very good at one thing or at least have most of the bases covered.
I'm not sure I agree that Mundo doesn't have good ganks. Maybe not the #1 best ganks? But still pretty good. Land a cleaver, turn on Burning Agony, throw in exhaust, not necessarily in that order, and people will very often be dead. His clear speed also means that you have more time attempt ganks.
I'm not sure I agree that Mundo doesn't have good ganks. Maybe not the #1 best ganks? But still pretty good. Land a cleaver, turn on Burning Agony, throw in exhaust, not necessarily in that order, and people will very often be dead. His clear speed also means that you have more time attempt ganks.
I have found it way too easy to just walk away from him. Unless you are pushed so far past the river that you are essentially under the enemy tower. His cleaver is too easy to dodge, exhaust certainly helps though, but I find that he is far more useful in actually focusing on counter jungling and map control. If you want to have solid ganks, go with a jungler that has solid ganks, there are plenty to choose from.
That clear speed is why you use him for counter jungling. He can clear his camps, enemy camps, cripple buffs, steal buffs. He can be all over making their jungler useless and giving out blue and red buffs to help his lanes if necessary.
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We would win lanes but lose teamfights because our team lacked initiation, or a way to deal with poke, or a way to stop them from effectively initiating on us.
You have to go one step beyond "how do I win my lane" to "after I've won my lane, how are we going to convert that into winning the game?" You need a cohesive strategy that your champions are contributing to.
On a side note Chaoshat, what is your rune setup for your above 80% Jax Jungle? and what do you do for mana?
AD reds AD quints Arm yellows AS blues
You don't need mana to clear camps after you hit 6, your passives just destroy the camps pretty much asap. Getting a Sheen is more or less needed if you're going to gank a lot, though.
I think this one doesn't really require discussion.
Comp-wise, yeah, it's important to either be very good at one thing or at least have most of the bases covered.
It sounds obvious, but it really isn't. Most(I'm going to guess 75-80%) of the people that play this game don't play enough champions well to make proper team comps.
The 'at least have most of the bases covered' train of thought is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are up against a very specialized team comp, being okay at a bunch of different things is going to mean absolutely nothing if the other team executes their strategy.
This is something that I 'knew', but never properly understood. I think a lot of people are there too.
I'm not sure I agree that Mundo doesn't have good ganks. Maybe not the #1 best ganks? But still pretty good. Land a cleaver, turn on Burning Agony, throw in exhaust, not necessarily in that order, and people will very often be dead. His clear speed also means that you have more time attempt ganks.
I have found it way too easy to just walk away from him. Unless you are pushed so far past the river that you are essentially under the enemy tower. His cleaver is too easy to dodge, exhaust certainly helps though, but I find that he is far more useful in actually focusing on counter jungling and map control. If you want to have solid ganks, go with a jungler that has solid ganks, there are plenty to choose from.
That clear speed is why you use him for counter jungling. He can clear his camps, enemy camps, cripple buffs, steal buffs. He can be all over making their jungler useless and giving out blue and red buffs to help his lanes if necessary.
Mundo has some of the best ganks in the game, IMO.
People usually herp derp when Mundo fats his way into the lane, especially when you come in to gank at low health. Most of my ganks I run in with 50% or less health and people go "Oh look at that, let's turn this gank around." After that all you have to do is land cleavers (which is absurdly easy with smartcasting-- they're long-ranged and have a deceptively large hitbox) and run around with burning agony on. People die so fast! And if they run under their tower you can just cleave them from afar or dive them with your massive health pool.
Pick up a FoN and/or Warmog's early depending on the type of comp you're going up against and Mundo can turn even the loosest game around.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
I think this one doesn't really require discussion.
Comp-wise, yeah, it's important to either be very good at one thing or at least have most of the bases covered.
It sounds obvious, but it really isn't. Most(I'm going to guess 75-80%) of the people that play this game don't play enough champions well to make proper team comps.
The 'at least have most of the bases covered' train of thought is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are up against a very specialized team comp, being okay at a bunch of different things is going to mean absolutely nothing if the other team executes their strategy.
This is something that I 'knew', but never properly understood. I think a lot of people are there too.
Yes, since I started playing in Season 2 I've been watching myself lose ELO to it. No, we really can't have three melee champions with no CC between them. No, you can't go Olaf and Wukong, neither of you build a Mallet, and then act surprised when you get kited. Etc. It's driving me a little nuts.
The other composition-related observation I'd like to make relates to skillshots and initiations: If you stand behind Blitzcrank waiting for a hook, the other team will deny him the chance to hook unless they make a bad decision. You actually do have to set those guys up a little, if only by poking.
I think this one doesn't really require discussion.
Comp-wise, yeah, it's important to either be very good at one thing or at least have most of the bases covered.
It sounds obvious, but it really isn't. Most(I'm going to guess 75-80%) of the people that play this game don't play enough champions well to make proper team comps.
The 'at least have most of the bases covered' train of thought is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are up against a very specialized team comp, being okay at a bunch of different things is going to mean absolutely nothing if the other team executes their strategy.
This is something that I 'knew', but never properly understood. I think a lot of people are there too.
Yes, since I started playing in Season 2 I've been watching myself lose ELO to it. No, we really can't have three melee champions with no CC between them. No, you can't go Olaf and Wukong, neither of you build a Mallet, and then act surprised when you get kited. Etc. It's driving me a little nuts.
Yeah, I know the feeling. That's pretty much the reason I avoid solo queue all the time.
Premade 5s are really a different game than solo queue. We use the same tools and the same playing board, but everything else is very different. I admit that I am intimidated by solo queue ranked.
I think this one doesn't really require discussion.
Comp-wise, yeah, it's important to either be very good at one thing or at least have most of the bases covered.
It sounds obvious, but it really isn't. Most(I'm going to guess 75-80%) of the people that play this game don't play enough champions well to make proper team comps.
The 'at least have most of the bases covered' train of thought is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are up against a very specialized team comp, being okay at a bunch of different things is going to mean absolutely nothing if the other team executes their strategy.
This is something that I 'knew', but never properly understood. I think a lot of people are there too.
Yeah this is definitely in the "Everyone kinda sorta knows but never does" camp.
Also thank you for switching your Avatar back Sampsen, my world is right-side up again.
@carnarvon That was my other question, do you go straight for the sheen, or is the extra bulk from Phage better? And do you finish a wriggles? I feel like it delays his Triforce by a LOT, but could be useful if you are going for a more Tanky Randuins/Wit's End/Frozen Heart build.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
I think this one doesn't really require discussion.
Comp-wise, yeah, it's important to either be very good at one thing or at least have most of the bases covered.
It sounds obvious, but it really isn't. Most(I'm going to guess 75-80%) of the people that play this game don't play enough champions well to make proper team comps.
The 'at least have most of the bases covered' train of thought is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are up against a very specialized team comp, being okay at a bunch of different things is going to mean absolutely nothing if the other team executes their strategy.
This is something that I 'knew', but never properly understood. I think a lot of people are there too.
Yes, since I started playing in Season 2 I've been watching myself lose ELO to it. No, we really can't have three melee champions with no CC between them. No, you can't go Olaf and Wukong, neither of you build a Mallet, and then act surprised when you get kited. Etc. It's driving me a little nuts.
Yeah, I know the feeling. That's pretty much the reason I avoid solo queue all the time.
Premade 5s are really a different game than solo queue. We use the same tools and the same playing board, but everything else is very different. I admit that I am intimidated by solo queue ranked.
Yeah. I wish I had a premade crew, especially as a guy who plays tanks and supports with a preference. I can carry on some characters, but about half the time when I pick one of them my team has already lost the game because they literally don't understand how to get back in good shape in a lane they're losing. It's infuriating. There's a game with Graves in my match history right now where I was a walking comeback after winning my lane in spite of my support; that's your best-case scenario a lot of the time in solo queue.
We would win lanes but lose teamfights because our team lacked initiation, or a way to deal with poke, or a way to stop them from effectively initiating on us.
You have to go one step beyond "how do I win my lane" to "after I've won my lane, how are we going to convert that into winning the game?" You need a cohesive strategy that your champions are contributing to.
On a side note Chaoshat, what is your rune setup for your above 80% Jax Jungle? and what do you do for mana?
AD reds AD quints Arm yellows AS blues
You don't need mana to clear camps after you hit 6, your passives just destroy the camps pretty much asap. Getting a Sheen is more or less needed if you're going to gank a lot, though.
Yes. The above 80% is super easy. Start Vamp Scepter. Wait to take a couple hits from the minions, then activate counterstrike. You now have two free seconds to beat on the minions and gain that health back. Also, since you waited to activate counterstrike, you have a few stacks of your passive, so you're getting even more life steal during this time. Then the stun goes off, even more free hits. You might dip a tiny bit below while clearing red, but his jungle is ridiculously safe with vamp scepter start. His W resets attack timers, so you can attack FASTER if you just press W the instant after an attack (you know, animation cancelling). With smart timing of your W and E, you can clear pretty quickly with high health.
And as Frolic said, his clears are so fast once you hit six/build a wriggles. At most just use W, since it will stack up your passive faster and it's pretty mana cheap. He attacks really quickly for lots of wriggles/life steal.
Edit for new questions: I like phage if you're planning to gank more, honestly. Although since he can Q to wards I take exhaust anyways (Lee Sin style). Might not be optimal. Sheen is probably better all around, since the passive will help you add damage to ganks and will also help you clear like a mad man. Mana also helps.
I always finish the wriggles. It makes Jax into a baron/dragon securing monster. Plus it's not like any of the stats are a waste, you always have a ward to Q to, etc. I'm actually wondering whether it's better to build triforce or gunblade first. I think you can go either or.
And to add to the team comp conversation, I don't think it has to be anything super in depth. You just need to say "how are we going to start/win teamfights?" One of the most frustrating things would be just getting poked to death while sieging their tower, and then we'd be crippled with indecision since we didn't have anyone good to start a dive with to start fighting. You can dodge a lot of poke, but people are going to eventually get hit by some stuff, and shit like Nidalee spears or Gragas barrels don't need to connect that often to be effective.
I think in solo queue, if you can just take someone who can powerfully initiate, or powerfully counter initiate, you should be fine. If you can send a clear signal to your team to go in (Malphite ult, Maokai cc into ultimate, Galio ult, etc) or scatter/disrupt the enemy team and prevent them from murdering you (Gragas ult, Janna ult, Kennen, Galio, Morgana ult, etc) then most of the rest of the comp shouldn't matter THAT much as long as your team was competent. Usually if the game isn't heavily decided by the end of the laning phase, it comes down to who can initiate better, which comes down to positioning and what abilities you have to initiate/escape initation and having one character on your team do that strongly is probably enough.
This is why the AD carry is so low on Hat's List of Jobs to Play in Solo Queue. It can't do ANY of that. You're at the mercy of your teammates to pick good engagements. If they can, you can sit back there and shoot everything until it dies. If they can't, you'll just spend the entire fight running away from their team and not shooting anything. Ashe is the only AD carry with a strong ability to start a team fight or prevent one.
obviously "full organized teamcomp" beats "random checkbox teamcomp" but it's basically impossible to do that in solo queue.
But but... Last pick has been waiting to play Wukong top all day you fucking noob. Trust me, I will carry your ass. And whatnot.
I wish I could say that I could count on one hand the number of times someone has said "Trust me..." (Says Support Ashe, Mid Akali, etc.) in champ select that has led to a victory, but I always had trouble with imaginary numbers in high school and my math has only gotten worse as time goes on.
I think my favorite one is when a duo picks a dual-melee kill lane with limited gap closers/CC against ranged AD/support feeds and then blames everyone else for the loss.
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Some characters are a bit easier to learn than others. Skarner has a bit of nuance in order to be an effective ganker, especially without ult.
Early junglers I'd recommend learning are probably like Jarvan, Trundle, Malphite, Nocturne, or maybe Udyr.
The key to not raging is to just take a deep breath and always find something fun about the game. I had a game on my smurf (who I play while drinking or otherwise not feeling super-serious bizness) with a horrific ryze who fed a mejais LeBlanc 20 stacks by the 15 minute mark while whining she was OP. I just focused on jungling hard (was Yi) and getting kills where I could. We lost, but I learned some fun things about positioning.
Of that list, I own Malphite, and I've never played him jungle. Hrm.
the easiest jungler forever
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I think that the issue most junglers have is that they blow their gap closer/slow/root/whatever to try and get TO the target in the lane instead of coming in at a good angle and walking up to the enemy first and only using the slow/root/gap closer when they try to get away from you. If you come in at the right angle from the jungle you can make them blow their escape/flash before you ever use your exhaust/flash/closer.
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What's it like to be so wrong it hurts?
I want Udyr to go free so I can try him. I think I would like a character who reportedly gives no fucks.
Of course, I'm about to hit 20, so I have to spend all my IP on runes. Probably will start with tanky stuff for support/rammus/solo top.
whatever masteries
pretty much any items
level ew
and then do whatever the fuck you want
bruiser
ad carry
ap
fulltank
any fucking thing
and he works
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1) We aren't talking about "helping" top you goose. Yea, you typically help top first because its easier[fewer wards larger advantage]. We are talking about "which lane to save if you have to choose". And the lane to save if you have to choose is bottom.
2) Bottom tower is typically the easiest to take after a gank because you have more people there to attack it. It is simply the lane you least want to have the first[but not second] tower
3) Mids roam when they want to roam, its not like you can prevent the enemy mid from leaving lane. [without engaging in a risky maneuver when you can't see their jungler] The best you can do is follow them where they're going or push the lane to their tower when they go[which is also risky if you can't see their jungler]. So yea, you do pretty much get 4v3 or 4v2. I mean shit, if anything bottom will push to the tower[which they can do because they're winning] and then go pressure mid.
4) We already know that if you're losing both bottom and top you're losing the game. And the winning team is going to use their leverage to make you lose all the lanes. But there are still optimal solutions to shitty situations.
They did. Grandegunner was the cait and that game would have been over way before it was had i not supported bottom as hard as I could.
I guess I just always saw him as a Warwick with more utility / control.
Please explain.
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A trio queued together and picked fizz, gp and hec all flash ignite. I had already picked taric first thinking they can pick carries around support and not have to worry about who does what. My logic was mistaken.
Load in and go bot with hec who keeps pinging for me to go top because it's him/gp bottom. Gp isn't loaded in btw. I basically ignore it and proceed to support it up. He gets mid health by lv 2, then at lv 3 complains tha I'm a noob for not leveling heal. Then the rest of lanig is made up of him talking about how taric is shit for a chamP and does no damage. Then he decides one of my random harasses is the time for him to charge in while I'm already moving back to our tower, by the time I get back to him he's dead and I get killed trying to help. Nonstop comPlaining after that. Our mid Vic gOt pulled into it for defending me and I'm like 1/4/19 with the threesome all complaining how I don't do anything.
How the shit do people get this hit a level? I had the other team defending me I all against my own teammates
Malphite's jungle isn't very mana intensive at all. I don't know where that's coming from. He clears pretty swiftly with a couple Es here or there and he takes basically no damage from the jungle, even at level one (seriously, try a cloth armor 2 pot start, you'll have one pot left over). With a point in W he does automatic aoe damage on every attack without spending any mana at all. A philostone is about the only mana regen I ever find that I need.
His ganking is a little weak pre six, but it becomes fantastic post six. Also, with so much armor, Malphite can dive and tank turrets pretty early on in the game. Ulting in, hitting E and Q is a lot of debuffing going on and it really hurts any autoattacker. Malphite can also invade pretty strongly since he can GTFO very easily by hitting the jungler (or hell, even a minion) with his Q if trouble comes, and he can clear a given camp very quickly with E and activating W.
Malphite is an amazing jungler especially if your enemy team is heavy on AD (autoattackers especially). He's tanky, he doesn't give a shit, provides useful debuffs, and has fantastic initation. Even if you build him tanky, his damage isn't that terrible since his E gets an armor ratio. Malphite can mercilessly chase down and slowly batter the shit out of fleeing enemies.
The only character off the top of my head that performs the tanky support with ridiculous initiation role better is probably Maokai, and Malphite is still probably a better pick versus certain comps.
Mundo only does well in the jungle when he is counter jungling. His ganks are shit early on (Cleaver too easy to dodge) and he is too squishy even with his ult without more health/resists.
Where he shines is in being able to shut down the enemy jungler, he can duel most of them pretty well and can speedily take their buffs/camps. He should be spending most of his time controlling all the buffs in the game, keeping tracks of when they are spawning and making sure he is there to take them each time. Be sure to inform your team when the buffs are coming up so they can put pressure on their lanes while he takes the enemy buffs.
I am fast learning that you really need to think about your jungler in terms of how they work with your team comp. Mundo can't gank very well, but if your laner has a form of root/stun or even a slow then suddenly mundo has much better ganks. Mundo is also great for diving top champs under their tower. He takes the tower damage, blows his ult and gives the top laner enough time to finish the enemy off. (Works better at higher levels obviously.)
Conversely if your top or mid lacks decent CC go for a ganking jungler like Lee Sin, Nocturne, Maokai or Jax for instance and focus more on getting your mid and top to win instead of shutting down their jungler.
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Team comp can be so important. Ideally you want:
1. Either mid or jungle wants blue, never both (IE, if you run amumu run kennen instead of karthus, if lee go the other way)
2. At least 1 single target hard CC, at least 1 AOE soft CC - both non-ult form.
3. 2 AP and 2 AD damagers
4. At least 1 dude with wriggles and attack speed.
It's even much more than that. For the longest time my regular group would pick teams exactly how you described, often counterpicking to win lanes. This worked very well for a long time, but then about 2-3 weeks ago we suddenly got a shitload better by developing specific team comps and focusing on mid/late game instead of laning all the time.
For example:
An AoE comp could be Galio mid, Vlad top, Riven jungle, Sivir + Leona bot.
A poke comp could be Kennen top (bonus of counter initiation), Xerath or Gragas mid, Mundo jungle, Caitlyn + janna bot (Janna brings more counter initiation, great cc, and more team speed for kiting. I
Building comps for specific purposes is SO MUCH FUN. Doesnt work well in solo queue, but 5 mans is where it's at anyways.
We could lose our lanes and still destroy them in teamfights. That would happen to us often enough before, but now it's us doing it and it really is the most fun thing ever.
I just really really really wanted to emphasize this because it is something I wholeheartedly believe and wish I could impress properly upon my regular group without them coming up with excuses as to why we need to focus on counter picking so much.
(To be fair to them, there ARE other issues at play as well, but I would still love to focus on building around our team and building specific compositions that complement eachother instead of always just trying to counterpick the enemy.)
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You have to go one step beyond "how do I win my lane" to "after I've won my lane, how are we going to convert that into winning the game?" You need a cohesive strategy that your champions are contributing to.
On a side note Chaoshat, what is your rune setup for your above 80% Jax Jungle? and what do you do for mana?
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From my experiences, it was often that if we won our lanes, we could just win the game or force a surrender at 20, regardless of team comp. Once in awhile, the enemy team knew their comp was good and they would drag out the game, making up the gold difference slowly, or at least making it so the % difference is smaller and smaller (5k difference at 20 minutes is HUGE, 5k at 40 minutes is nothing). We could win our lanes and lose the game. Our teams were often 'pick off' teams and lacked something major, like AoE cc, initiation, poke, etc. Good at something, but not great at it, and not well rounded enough to beat a specific comp.
If we lost our lanes, we often could not win the game, as we didn't pick a comp with a purpose. Like I mentioned above, we are now the ones that understand how to turn a game in our favour, and understand how to properly teamfight with certain configurations. We aren't pro, but our games got a lot better and more fun once we started doing that.
I'm a huge fan of Caitlyn now that I think I understand her role. She is much, much more than just a 'shutdown' laner like I thought she was.
Edit - The Caitlyn bit was thrown in to demonstrate how my views on champs have changed from laning to team comp. I avoided Cait because she seemed so one dimensional, but she isn't, I just didn't understand what you need to do to make her work. She might lose a 1v1 to someone like Graves or Vayne, but that's not her job, ever. Just like Ashe's role is not to 1v1. I need to rethink a lot of the ideas I have about different champs.
I think this one doesn't really require discussion.
Comp-wise, yeah, it's important to either be very good at one thing or at least have most of the bases covered.
I have found it way too easy to just walk away from him. Unless you are pushed so far past the river that you are essentially under the enemy tower. His cleaver is too easy to dodge, exhaust certainly helps though, but I find that he is far more useful in actually focusing on counter jungling and map control. If you want to have solid ganks, go with a jungler that has solid ganks, there are plenty to choose from.
That clear speed is why you use him for counter jungling. He can clear his camps, enemy camps, cripple buffs, steal buffs. He can be all over making their jungler useless and giving out blue and red buffs to help his lanes if necessary.
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AD reds AD quints Arm yellows AS blues
You don't need mana to clear camps after you hit 6, your passives just destroy the camps pretty much asap. Getting a Sheen is more or less needed if you're going to gank a lot, though.
It sounds obvious, but it really isn't. Most(I'm going to guess 75-80%) of the people that play this game don't play enough champions well to make proper team comps.
The 'at least have most of the bases covered' train of thought is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are up against a very specialized team comp, being okay at a bunch of different things is going to mean absolutely nothing if the other team executes their strategy.
This is something that I 'knew', but never properly understood. I think a lot of people are there too.
Mundo has some of the best ganks in the game, IMO.
People usually herp derp when Mundo fats his way into the lane, especially when you come in to gank at low health. Most of my ganks I run in with 50% or less health and people go "Oh look at that, let's turn this gank around." After that all you have to do is land cleavers (which is absurdly easy with smartcasting-- they're long-ranged and have a deceptively large hitbox) and run around with burning agony on. People die so fast! And if they run under their tower you can just cleave them from afar or dive them with your massive health pool.
Pick up a FoN and/or Warmog's early depending on the type of comp you're going up against and Mundo can turn even the loosest game around.
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Yes, since I started playing in Season 2 I've been watching myself lose ELO to it. No, we really can't have three melee champions with no CC between them. No, you can't go Olaf and Wukong, neither of you build a Mallet, and then act surprised when you get kited. Etc. It's driving me a little nuts.
The other composition-related observation I'd like to make relates to skillshots and initiations: If you stand behind Blitzcrank waiting for a hook, the other team will deny him the chance to hook unless they make a bad decision. You actually do have to set those guys up a little, if only by poking.
Yeah, I know the feeling. That's pretty much the reason I avoid solo queue all the time.
Premade 5s are really a different game than solo queue. We use the same tools and the same playing board, but everything else is very different. I admit that I am intimidated by solo queue ranked.
Yeah this is definitely in the "Everyone kinda sorta knows but never does" camp.
Also thank you for switching your Avatar back Sampsen, my world is right-side up again.
@carnarvon That was my other question, do you go straight for the sheen, or is the extra bulk from Phage better? And do you finish a wriggles? I feel like it delays his Triforce by a LOT, but could be useful if you are going for a more Tanky Randuins/Wit's End/Frozen Heart build.
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Yeah. I wish I had a premade crew, especially as a guy who plays tanks and supports with a preference. I can carry on some characters, but about half the time when I pick one of them my team has already lost the game because they literally don't understand how to get back in good shape in a lane they're losing. It's infuriating. There's a game with Graves in my match history right now where I was a walking comeback after winning my lane in spite of my support; that's your best-case scenario a lot of the time in solo queue.
Yes. The above 80% is super easy. Start Vamp Scepter. Wait to take a couple hits from the minions, then activate counterstrike. You now have two free seconds to beat on the minions and gain that health back. Also, since you waited to activate counterstrike, you have a few stacks of your passive, so you're getting even more life steal during this time. Then the stun goes off, even more free hits. You might dip a tiny bit below while clearing red, but his jungle is ridiculously safe with vamp scepter start. His W resets attack timers, so you can attack FASTER if you just press W the instant after an attack (you know, animation cancelling). With smart timing of your W and E, you can clear pretty quickly with high health.
And as Frolic said, his clears are so fast once you hit six/build a wriggles. At most just use W, since it will stack up your passive faster and it's pretty mana cheap. He attacks really quickly for lots of wriggles/life steal.
Edit for new questions: I like phage if you're planning to gank more, honestly. Although since he can Q to wards I take exhaust anyways (Lee Sin style). Might not be optimal. Sheen is probably better all around, since the passive will help you add damage to ganks and will also help you clear like a mad man. Mana also helps.
I always finish the wriggles. It makes Jax into a baron/dragon securing monster. Plus it's not like any of the stats are a waste, you always have a ward to Q to, etc. I'm actually wondering whether it's better to build triforce or gunblade first. I think you can go either or.
And to add to the team comp conversation, I don't think it has to be anything super in depth. You just need to say "how are we going to start/win teamfights?" One of the most frustrating things would be just getting poked to death while sieging their tower, and then we'd be crippled with indecision since we didn't have anyone good to start a dive with to start fighting. You can dodge a lot of poke, but people are going to eventually get hit by some stuff, and shit like Nidalee spears or Gragas barrels don't need to connect that often to be effective.
I think in solo queue, if you can just take someone who can powerfully initiate, or powerfully counter initiate, you should be fine. If you can send a clear signal to your team to go in (Malphite ult, Maokai cc into ultimate, Galio ult, etc) or scatter/disrupt the enemy team and prevent them from murdering you (Gragas ult, Janna ult, Kennen, Galio, Morgana ult, etc) then most of the rest of the comp shouldn't matter THAT much as long as your team was competent. Usually if the game isn't heavily decided by the end of the laning phase, it comes down to who can initiate better, which comes down to positioning and what abilities you have to initiate/escape initation and having one character on your team do that strongly is probably enough.
This is why the AD carry is so low on Hat's List of Jobs to Play in Solo Queue. It can't do ANY of that. You're at the mercy of your teammates to pick good engagements. If they can, you can sit back there and shoot everything until it dies. If they can't, you'll just spend the entire fight running away from their team and not shooting anything. Ashe is the only AD carry with a strong ability to start a team fight or prevent one.
But but... Last pick has been waiting to play Wukong top all day you fucking noob. Trust me, I will carry your ass. And whatnot.
I wish I could say that I could count on one hand the number of times someone has said "Trust me..." (Says Support Ashe, Mid Akali, etc.) in champ select that has led to a victory, but I always had trouble with imaginary numbers in high school and my math has only gotten worse as time goes on.
I think my favorite one is when a duo picks a dual-melee kill lane with limited gap closers/CC against ranged AD/support feeds and then blames everyone else for the loss.
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