In anticipation of New and Improved Ryze I unlocked the Dark Crystal skin last night. Also picked up Cassio on sale.
Wut?
What are they doing to Ryze?
Dropping mana costs, raising AP ratios, raising base damage, reducing mana ratios on Q&W, adding a mana ratio on E, removing +mana from ult passive, adding movement speed boost to ult's active, reducing range on Q, root time on W... lots of stuff.
Essentially, he's still an "AP" mid that scales with mana but now there will actually be a reason to build some AP on him early in the pursuit of things like Rod of Ages. And you'll be better rewarded for endgame builds that have a big chunk of AP. It might even be worth it to go 21/0/9 or 9/9/12 again. You won't have to start Mana Sapphire to have decent Q damage and number of casts.
Sorry, it just sounded like you were complaining how easy Graves is to play while lamenting how difficult it is for Sivir. If that's not the case I apologize. Well whatever form apologizing as Hat takes.
Yeah, you misread my tone. I think it's great that the easy stuff on Graves takes care of itself. It leaves me more or less free to concentrate on the stuff that's not on that chart, like outlasting enemy bruisers while kiting with Quickdraw and some help. I think it is silly that - per examples in my response to Arivia - a Sivir player is required to concentrate on what should be the easy stuff. Some folks seem to find that fun, though.
I guess I just don't see where Sivir is so much more difficult to play. I don't play AD bot at all, so maybe I'm TOTALLY wrong, but their attack ranges are similar, 500 vs 525, and Boomerang Blade and Buckshot fill similar niches. Hell, for being a more difficult thing to do, Boomerang Blade does more damage and has a better AD ratio. Sivir doesn't have to aim an ultimate or anything. I just don't see how Sivir is so much more difficult than being Graves.
They're Riot-nerfing him, which is where it sounds like they're nerfing him until you actually realise it's a stealth buff. See the recent nerfs to Soraka, Shaco, Janna...
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
edited April 2012
Short answer: Lowering the range on Q to 650 and reducing the mana cost, the mana ratio by 1% while doubling the AP ratio. Nerf to W duration while reducing the mana cost, and adding a mana ratio to E. R loses passive bonus mana, gains active move speed.
Edit: Rius has E add W mixed up, but included the base stat changes.
Kay on
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
Sorry, it just sounded like you were complaining how easy Graves is to play while lamenting how difficult it is for Sivir. If that's not the case I apologize. Well whatever form apologizing as Hat takes.
Yeah, you misread my tone. I think it's great that the easy stuff on Graves takes care of itself. It leaves me more or less free to concentrate on the stuff that's not on that chart, like outlasting enemy bruisers while kiting with Quickdraw and some help. I think it is silly that - per examples in my response to Arivia - a Sivir player is required to concentrate on what should be the easy stuff. Some folks seem to find that fun, though.
I guess I just don't see where Sivir is so much more difficult to play. I don't play AD bot at all, so maybe I'm TOTALLY wrong, but their attack ranges are similar, 500 vs 525, and Boomerang Blade and Buckshot fill similar niches. Hell, for being a more difficult thing to do, Boomerang Blade does more damage and has a better AD ratio. Sivir doesn't have to aim an ultimate or anything. I just don't see how Sivir is so much more difficult than being Graves.
Stuff like that mana-cost / spellshield observation I made, mostly. Sivir is still quite playable and very good once you learn her. The thrust of my argument is that she's no longer all that justifiable as a recommended or introductory carry, with a side of her not being representative of the long-term trends in champion design and the metagame.
I like the games where you play well at the outset of a game and the other team starts to shit on each other in /all, and then you just start to egg them on a bit. DANCE PUPPETS, DANCE.
Also my takeaway from the last few pages of this thread is "play more Teemo bot." I love Teemo but just get the meta mindset stuck in my head, when really at my ELO it probably doesn't matter all that much - my Teemo will have plenty of opportunity to just bully traditional AD carries out of lane, and just be annoying the rest of the time. As a bonus, I think Teemo's magic damage might be a partial answer to the Graves/Soraka bullshit that was *infuriating* last night against our Ashe/Blitzcrank. So many near deaths
You know, I think the EU servers genuinely have nicer people on them than the NA ones.
Not in the smurf queue. I've been firmly slotted into the smurf section of EU-W, which is fine and reflects well on Riot's MMing, but every game has at least one asshole in it now.
In anticipation of New and Improved Ryze I unlocked the Dark Crystal skin last night. Also picked up Cassio on sale.
Wut?
What are they doing to Ryze?
Dropping mana costs, raising AP ratios, raising base damage, reducing mana ratios on Q&W, adding a mana ratio on E, removing +mana from ult passive, adding movement speed boost to ult's active, reducing range on Q, root time on W... lots of stuff.
Essentially, he's still an "AP" mid that scales with mana but now there will actually be a reason to build some AP on him early in the pursuit of things like Rod of Ages. And you'll be better rewarded for endgame builds that have a big chunk of AP. It might even be worth it to go 21/0/9 or 9/9/12 again. You won't have to start Mana Sapphire to have decent Q damage and number of casts.
Don't know if want.....
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
I encounter more nice people than a-holes when playing normal draft on my main account. I encounter a higher proportion of a-holes on my lev. 22 smurf.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
Nah, the changes seem designed to de-emphasize the "What ability power?" builds without ruining them, and give Ryze something resembling the (again, now-mandatory) gap closer he hasn't had.
I bought a mana/lvl runeset for him like 4-5 months ago...I don't think I can get a refund anymore,
Hopefully at least some of them can still be useful.
Tried to start Shen with boots+2ruby crystals in dom. Went 18/7/13. Quickly buildt the crystals into Phage and Aegis, then Wit's, Frozen Mallet and a Randuin's to top it off. It's fun to be an immortal, life-saving douchebag. And Shen+AD Sion is a combo that destroys worlds. Or At least WW+Lee Sin, who was their bruiser combo.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
Nah, the changes seem designed to de-emphasize the "What ability power?" builds without ruining them, and give Ryze something resembling the (again, now-mandatory) gap closer he hasn't had.
Well if they are only knocking 1% off Q and adding atleast that much onto E... you're right, I should be A Ok! And now that WoTA will be even more useful...
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
Nah, the changes seem designed to de-emphasize the "What ability power?" builds without ruining them, and give Ryze something resembling the (again, now-mandatory) gap closer he hasn't had.
Well if they are only knocking 1% off Q and adding atleast that much onto E... you're right, I should be A Ok! And now that WoTA will be even more useful...
In anticipation of New and Improved Ryze I unlocked the Dark Crystal skin last night. Also picked up Cassio on sale.
Wut?
What are they doing to Ryze?
Dropping mana costs, raising AP ratios, raising base damage, reducing mana ratios on Q&W, adding a mana ratio on E, removing +mana from ult passive, adding movement speed boost to ult's active, reducing range on Q, root time on W... lots of stuff.
Essentially, he's still an "AP" mid that scales with mana but now there will actually be a reason to build some AP on him early in the pursuit of things like Rod of Ages. And you'll be better rewarded for endgame builds that have a big chunk of AP. It might even be worth it to go 21/0/9 or 9/9/12 again. You won't have to start Mana Sapphire to have decent Q damage and number of casts.
Don't know if want.....
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
I think what Riot said they wanted to do with him was to allow people to either carry on building him how he's currently built with just stacking mana and such, or they could make him more of a glass cannon. It was the players decision. At least that's what they say in the patch spotlight here (Skip to about 1:30)
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
Nah, the changes seem designed to de-emphasize the "What ability power?" builds without ruining them, and give Ryze something resembling the (again, now-mandatory) gap closer he hasn't had.
Well if they are only knocking 1% off Q and adding atleast that much onto E... you're right, I should be A Ok! And now that WoTA will be even more useful...
aren't they nerfing wota
Sideways change I believe. WoTA is going to be hextech+blasting(instead of amp) and cost more overall. The part I'm not sure about is if it's getting more AP overall, which would make it much more slot efficient, but less cost efficient.
KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
Mana builds will still work fine. You're just going to get more out of Rod of the Ages and Hextech Revolver now. I don't think that you could stack Doran's Rings, though. On new Ryze, I mean.
You know, I think the EU servers genuinely have nicer people on them than the NA ones.
Not in the smurf queue. I've been firmly slotted into the smurf section of EU-W, which is fine and reflects well on Riot's MMing, but every game has at least one asshole in it now.
Overall I do agree with you, though.
The EU smurf queue is full of NA assholes though. :rotate:
You know, I think the EU servers genuinely have nicer people on them than the NA ones.
Not in the smurf queue. I've been firmly slotted into the smurf section of EU-W, which is fine and reflects well on Riot's MMing, but every game has at least one asshole in it now.
Overall I do agree with you, though.
The EU smurf queue is full of NA assholes though. :rotate:
They did seem kinda American, but I wasn't sure if I was just seeing things. I'm not sure why you'd smurf across an ocean unless you had friends you were capable of interacting like a decent human being with. I only have a EU-W account to play with classy gentlemen from PA.
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
Nah, the changes seem designed to de-emphasize the "What ability power?" builds without ruining them, and give Ryze something resembling the (again, now-mandatory) gap closer he hasn't had.
Well if they are only knocking 1% off Q and adding atleast that much onto E... you're right, I should be A Ok! And now that WoTA will be even more useful...
aren't they nerfing wota
Sideways change I believe. WoTA is going to be hextech+blasting(instead of amp) and cost more overall. The part I'm not sure about is if it's getting more AP overall, which would make it much more slot efficient, but less cost efficient.
I'm pretty sure they're only increasing WoTA's cost, and not changing anything else about the item itself. That might make Gunblade more viable on mids which use their autoattacks; I've had a fair amount of success running it on Orianna in Dominion, for instance.
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
I can say from experience that the NA smurf queue is pretty horrific. It's full of complete pricks that rage constantly at the smallest mistake, and people that ragequit if they die early.
(I have caused more than a few ragequits mid as Swain and Ryze.)
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
Nah, the changes seem designed to de-emphasize the "What ability power?" builds without ruining them, and give Ryze something resembling the (again, now-mandatory) gap closer he hasn't had.
Well if they are only knocking 1% off Q and adding atleast that much onto E... you're right, I should be A Ok! And now that WoTA will be even more useful...
aren't they nerfing wota
Sideways change I believe. WoTA is going to be hextech+blasting(instead of amp) and cost more overall. The part I'm not sure about is if it's getting more AP overall, which would make it much more slot efficient, but less cost efficient.
I'm pretty sure they're only increasing WoTA's cost, and not changing anything else about the item itself. That might make Gunblade more viable on mids which use their autoattacks; I've had a fair amount of success running it on Orianna in Dominion, for instance.
From what I've read this is correct. They're replacing the amp tome with a blasting wand, causing WotA to cost more overall. But then they're increasing any of its stats because Riot feels its used too much and too often or somesuch.
Kinda unrelated but the active on Randuin's is getting hit as well which makes me all kinds of sad.
Reasons why WoTA is used too often:
A) It's too cheap for what it does It's the only end-game item that offers spell-vamp without needing to build an AD item
I was really sad when I realised there's not really any way for a standard AP mid to stack spell vamp. It's basically wota and runes and hope someone else buys wota. Meanwhile ADs can have 100%+ lifesteal.
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
I can say from experience that the NA smurf queue is pretty horrific. It's full of complete pricks that rage constantly at the smallest mistake, and people that ragequit if they die early.
Pretty much. You mostly playing on NA these days? I'd be happy to duo queue with you whenever I'm available.
I was really sad when I realised there's not really any way for a standard AP mid to stack spell vamp. It's basically wota and runes and hope someone else buys wota. Meanwhile ADs can have 100%+ lifesteal.
Not to mention that higher sustained DPS / lower "Cooldowns" means that 1% LS on an AD carry is better than 1% spellvamp on an AP.
Like I've said before, AD carries in general need to be nerfed, and it'll probably require some systemic changes. The least fun, most shitty, most indefensible thing in DOTA besides 100-0 stunlocks is the concept of carries who do all the damage and are basically guaranteed a win if a game lasts longer than X.
Really, the Kog + 3 support strategy at a draft tournament (as opposed to a blind pick gimmick) shows the problem better than anything I could say does.
programjunkie on
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
Like I've said before, AD carries in general need to be nerfed, and it'll probably require some systemic changes. The least fun, most shitty, most indefensible thing in DOTA besides 100-0 stunlocks is the concept of carries who do all the damage and are basically guaranteed a win if a game lasts longer than X.
Really, the Kog + 3 support strategy at a draft tournament (as opposed to a blind pick gimmick) shows the problem better than anything I could say does.
There was a period for a while after the game launched where it seemed like League of Legends was going to turn out to be about pushing rather than farming, which discussing the Sivir redesign has put me in mind of. I liked that idea better than what we've ended up with, which is a game about pacing yourself and your team until the balance is in your favor. It's not a BAD game by any means, but it's not quite what I remember hoping it'd turn into.
Auralynx on
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
Pretty much. You mostly playing on NA these days? I'd be happy to duo queue with you whenever I'm available.
I'm like, level 11 or something there? I'm told that 10-12 is where the smurfs usually stop playing. I'm meant to be levelling up the account there to play with you fine PA chaps if you can deal with my ping (and lack of skill). I'll let you know if I'm playing on NA, though. I am mostly still on the EU servers however.
i guess it comes down to your ability to last hit with high ping
if you can get last hitting down, then ranged AD would probably be the best
if you can't, then...something that farms really easy and has braindead combos, like sion, would be good
i guess it comes down to your ability to last hit with high ping
if you can get last hitting down, then ranged AD would probably be the best
if you can't, then...something that farms really easy and has UNdead combos, like sion, would be good
Posts
Dropping mana costs, raising AP ratios, raising base damage, reducing mana ratios on Q&W, adding a mana ratio on E, removing +mana from ult passive, adding movement speed boost to ult's active, reducing range on Q, root time on W... lots of stuff.
Essentially, he's still an "AP" mid that scales with mana but now there will actually be a reason to build some AP on him early in the pursuit of things like Rod of Ages. And you'll be better rewarded for endgame builds that have a big chunk of AP. It might even be worth it to go 21/0/9 or 9/9/12 again. You won't have to start Mana Sapphire to have decent Q damage and number of casts.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
I guess I just don't see where Sivir is so much more difficult to play. I don't play AD bot at all, so maybe I'm TOTALLY wrong, but their attack ranges are similar, 500 vs 525, and Boomerang Blade and Buckshot fill similar niches. Hell, for being a more difficult thing to do, Boomerang Blade does more damage and has a better AD ratio. Sivir doesn't have to aim an ultimate or anything. I just don't see how Sivir is so much more difficult than being Graves.
Edit: Rius has E add W mixed up, but included the base stat changes.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Stuff like that mana-cost / spellshield observation I made, mostly. Sivir is still quite playable and very good once you learn her. The thrust of my argument is that she's no longer all that justifiable as a recommended or introductory carry, with a side of her not being representative of the long-term trends in champion design and the metagame.
Also my takeaway from the last few pages of this thread is "play more Teemo bot." I love Teemo but just get the meta mindset stuck in my head, when really at my ELO it probably doesn't matter all that much - my Teemo will have plenty of opportunity to just bully traditional AD carries out of lane, and just be annoying the rest of the time. As a bonus, I think Teemo's magic damage might be a partial answer to the Graves/Soraka bullshit that was *infuriating* last night against our Ashe/Blitzcrank. So many near deaths
Not in the smurf queue. I've been firmly slotted into the smurf section of EU-W, which is fine and reflects well on Riot's MMing, but every game has at least one asshole in it now.
Overall I do agree with you, though.
Don't know if want.....
I never started mana crystal anyway. Boots + 3 is too stronk to give up.
I mean if I can still get away with the same build... then OK, I'll accept. But if have to start doing a regular mage build... Imma be mad.
Nah, the changes seem designed to de-emphasize the "What ability power?" builds without ruining them, and give Ryze something resembling the (again, now-mandatory) gap closer he hasn't had.
Hopefully at least some of them can still be useful.
FFBE: 898,311,440
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/dElementalor
Well if they are only knocking 1% off Q and adding atleast that much onto E... you're right, I should be A Ok! And now that WoTA will be even more useful...
aren't they nerfing wota
I think what Riot said they wanted to do with him was to allow people to either carry on building him how he's currently built with just stacking mana and such, or they could make him more of a glass cannon. It was the players decision. At least that's what they say in the patch spotlight here (Skip to about 1:30)
Riot really should just delete him from LOL. It's not possible to make a champ with that toolset fun to play against.
Sideways change I believe. WoTA is going to be hextech+blasting(instead of amp) and cost more overall. The part I'm not sure about is if it's getting more AP overall, which would make it much more slot efficient, but less cost efficient.
FFBE: 898,311,440
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/dElementalor
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
The EU smurf queue is full of NA assholes though. :rotate:
They did seem kinda American, but I wasn't sure if I was just seeing things. I'm not sure why you'd smurf across an ocean unless you had friends you were capable of interacting like a decent human being with. I only have a EU-W account to play with classy gentlemen from PA.
I'm pretty sure they're only increasing WoTA's cost, and not changing anything else about the item itself. That might make Gunblade more viable on mids which use their autoattacks; I've had a fair amount of success running it on Orianna in Dominion, for instance.
(I have caused more than a few ragequits mid as Swain and Ryze.)
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
From what I've read this is correct. They're replacing the amp tome with a blasting wand, causing WotA to cost more overall. But then they're increasing any of its stats because Riot feels its used too much and too often or somesuch.
Kinda unrelated but the active on Randuin's is getting hit as well which makes me all kinds of sad.
A) It's too cheap for what it does
Pick one
Pretty much. You mostly playing on NA these days? I'd be happy to duo queue with you whenever I'm available.
Not to mention that higher sustained DPS / lower "Cooldowns" means that 1% LS on an AD carry is better than 1% spellvamp on an AP.
Like I've said before, AD carries in general need to be nerfed, and it'll probably require some systemic changes. The least fun, most shitty, most indefensible thing in DOTA besides 100-0 stunlocks is the concept of carries who do all the damage and are basically guaranteed a win if a game lasts longer than X.
Really, the Kog + 3 support strategy at a draft tournament (as opposed to a blind pick gimmick) shows the problem better than anything I could say does.
There was a period for a while after the game launched where it seemed like League of Legends was going to turn out to be about pushing rather than farming, which discussing the Sivir redesign has put me in mind of. I liked that idea better than what we've ended up with, which is a game about pacing yourself and your team until the balance is in your favor. It's not a BAD game by any means, but it's not quite what I remember hoping it'd turn into.
I'm like, level 11 or something there? I'm told that 10-12 is where the smurfs usually stop playing. I'm meant to be levelling up the account there to play with you fine PA chaps if you can deal with my ping (and lack of skill). I'll let you know if I'm playing on NA, though. I am mostly still on the EU servers however.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
I pretty much have only been on to play with @Spectrum and co. Well, and Spaceman or other PA how occasionally are fool enough to invite me.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
not orianna
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
if you can get last hitting down, then ranged AD would probably be the best
if you can't, then...something that farms really easy and has braindead combos, like sion, would be good
(Isn't sion a zombie or something?)
Giuseppe Grande