There are a few APs which will probably remain viable though, just to quell that argument at once. Karthus, due to global ult being amazing and his aoe potential lategame being quite crazy, Eve because her kit is basically built to blow up a carry and run, and Kat since she can do absurd damage once you kill people due to her reset mechanic.
These are three out of... a lot. And they are good despite being ap, not because they are ap.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
especially the AP assassins who are critical for wrecking ADs.
Why not just run an AD assassin instead? Just as strong at assassinating, can't be countered by buying specific defenses, synergizes with the lack of anti-cc defense on armor items (I.E. no BV, QSS)
That is certainly an option, but not necessarily always a better one. Depends on the champ and the team comp.
Is it ever a worse option, though?
Pure AD teams might add variety, but if there's no downside to running them I think that's a problem.
You guys are also forgetting about the utility that AP casters bring to teams that AD casters don't have. Things like Orianas massively ranged speed buff/slow and displacement are incredibly useful. Kassadins mobility, Zyras root+knockup, Malz's silence+suppression, TFs massive lane pressure by just going missing, etc. If we're only talking straight-up damage, I would probably prefer an AD caster right now, but you do lose a lot of utility (most of the time).
especially the AP assassins who are critical for wrecking ADs.
Why not just run an AD assassin instead? Just as strong at assassinating, can't be countered by buying specific defenses, synergizes with the lack of anti-cc defense on armor items (I.E. no BV, QSS)
That is certainly an option, but not necessarily always a better one. Depends on the champ and the team comp.
Is it ever a worse option, though?
Pure AD teams might add variety, but if there's no downside to running them I think that's a problem.
I don't agree that there is no downside. I still stack armor against pure AD teams, and that works fine for me. It's still a better idea to have some variety in damage types. That is not completely nullified by one item (bulwark) Having an AP on the team still forces the enemy to build MR in defense (It;s always funny when they don't because it just lets me wreck them)
I get what you guys are trying to say, but I don't agree that it exists to the level you seem to think it does.
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
There are a few APs which will probably remain viable though, just to quell that argument at once. Karthus, due to global ult being amazing and his aoe potential lategame being quite crazy, Eve because her kit is basically built to blow up a carry and run, and Kat since she can do absurd damage once you kill people due to her reset mechanic.
These are three out of... a lot. And they are good despite being ap, not because they are ap.
I don't understand what you mean? Most characters succeed or fail based on their mechanics and abilities, not on their damage type. More to the point, they are strong AP heroes. I am not sure you can handwave that aspect of their character away. The AP pool may shrink considerably, which may necessitate action from riot, but I don't think AP mid is headed towards extinction.
They will certainly need to look at many of the burst casters though, who've certainly taken a hit.
Also, I think it is worth mentioning that most (if not all) of the AP heroes you mentioned saw little or no play during season 2, before the itemization changes.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Delphinidaes on
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
Every physical damage character in the game can get 55% Armor pen + 60 flat pen alone with no abilities with two items.
Care to teach me the secret of how you are pulling that off?
By my count I could manage 24 from runes and masteries, 10 from cleaver, 8% from masteries, 35% from whisper, and at full stacks 25% for a total of 40% ~ 55% and 34 flat pen. Unless we were talking about Olaf and I overlooked it?
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
If 5 bruiser is an option, and 3 AD caster + Support + 1 ADC is an option, and if 1 Bruiser + Jungle + AP MID + Support + ADC is option - then yes that is a net benefit to the game. Now different teams can use different makeups for different compositions.
If the game becomes 5 bruisers all day every day, then I am sure Riot will quickly address that oppression.
We're not even remotely near that point right now.
So far the 5 AD Bruiser/Caster teams I've seen have been rather underwhelming.
especially the AP assassins who are critical for wrecking ADs.
Why not just run an AD assassin instead? Just as strong at assassinating, can't be countered by buying specific defenses, synergizes with the lack of anti-cc defense on armor items (I.E. no BV, QSS)
That is certainly an option, but not necessarily always a better one. Depends on the champ and the team comp.
Is it ever a worse option, though?
Pure AD teams might add variety, but if there's no downside to running them I think that's a problem.
I don't agree that there is no downside. I still stack armor against pure AD teams, and that works fine for me. It's still a better idea to have some variety in damage types. That is not completely nullified by one item (bulwark) Having an AP on the team still forces the enemy to build MR in defense (It;s always funny when they don't because it just lets me wreck them)
I get what you guys are trying to say, but I don't agree that it exists to the level you seem to think it does.
I'm not saying that AP mids are completely dead or not worth playing or anything extreme as that. I just think that AD champs being able to reduce an enemy's armour by 25% and then ignore a further 43% of it with only two items and a mastery point is too strong, and this makes physical damage relatively more difficult to deal with than magical damage.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
especially the AP assassins who are critical for wrecking ADs.
Why not just run an AD assassin instead? Just as strong at assassinating, can't be countered by buying specific defenses, synergizes with the lack of anti-cc defense on armor items (I.E. no BV, QSS)
That is certainly an option, but not necessarily always a better one. Depends on the champ and the team comp.
Is it ever a worse option, though?
Pure AD teams might add variety, but if there's no downside to running them I think that's a problem.
I don't agree that there is no downside. I still stack armor against pure AD teams, and that works fine for me. It's still a better idea to have some variety in damage types. That is not completely nullified by one item (bulwark) Having an AP on the team still forces the enemy to build MR in defense (It;s always funny when they don't because it just lets me wreck them)
I get what you guys are trying to say, but I don't agree that it exists to the level you seem to think it does.
I'm not saying that AP mids are completely dead or not worth playing or anything extreme as that. I just think that AD champs being able to reduce an enemy's armour by 25% and then ignore a further 43% of it with only two items and a mastery point is too strong, and this makes physical damage relatively more difficult to deal with than magical damage.
This seems more reasonable as a position, and I agree.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
Possibly. I can't fathom why Riot hasn't helped him out. Probably because there isn't really a desire to buff him from the player base. Once you've seen what fed Tryandemere can do, it's like wanting to buff a war crime.
Care to teach me the secret of how you are pulling that off?
By my count I could manage 24 from runes and masteries, 10 from cleaver, 8% from masteries, 35% from whisper, and at full stacks 25% for a total of 40% ~ 55% and 34 flat pen. Unless we were talking about Olaf and I overlooked it?
You're right, i accidentally doubled my runes/masteries when i ran the quick calc.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
Well throughout this conversation we have decided that Karthus, Katarina, Lux, Cass, Kassadin, Akali, Anivia, Ahri, Diana, Malzahar, TF, Eve, and Orianna are all fine AP mids.
There is also a lot of people who do very well as Syndra, and there has also been support for Gragas mid.
So that's 15 champs out of a pool of 26 typical AP mids that I count.
And that's not even really looking at them all and seeing if they are still decent mid (Like Morgana, which I'm pretty sure is still a solid mid pick)
That's out of a total pool of 109 champions.
So we already agree that roughly 14% of the champs are decent AP mids that still work. And that's in a roll that represents 20% of your team, again without even really looking into the other 11 typical AP mids to see if they really aren't good in mid anymore.
You still see Ryze and Morgana do great work in Mid, and those aren't included in the 15.
I just don't see this issue you seem to think exists.
Do Brand and Annie have a tougher time in mid? Sure. But that isn't a new thing, and not indicative of the role as a whole. Veigar has always had issues and been very hit or miss. You still see Vlad every now and again, and Zyra is more popular as support so you don't see her mid much. Leblanc is another hit or miss one, and I still think Elise is awesome in mid but understand not everyone agrees with that despite the results. Fiddles is more popular for jungle, but still a good mid pick in certain matchups.
So now we're down to Xerath, Fizz, Mordekaiser.
So which AP mids have really been affected by the changes that weren't already in that exact situation? Not much has changed at all, the same AP mids that were popular mid are still playing mid and still do good work, the ones that weren't that popular mid still aren't.
AD assassins are now a good choice, but they aren't really pushing out the AP mids, they are just another option. Which opens up variety in the game. Which is awesome.
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
This is bullshit, and Riot has repeatedly said that they think about the entire playerbase when they do balancing. They balance for pro, but they also try to make sure that the majority of the playerbase has a fun experience, which is why hardcore pub stomp champs get adjusted as well. IT's impossible to adjust for everything, but Riot doesn't just ignore the majority of the playerbase as well.
And considering none of us are Pro, it's kind of pointless to make assertions based entirely on how champs are balanced in the pro scene, it would be irrelevant to the game we actually play. It's fun to follow the pro scene, and even aspire to join it, but practically we don't play in that realm, and should make our daily decisions based on what we actually deal with.
When you get to 2200+ Elo feel free to make decisions in the game based on the minor differences that have much more influence at that level. I try to bring a practical level of discussion to the table which people can actually use in the games they play.
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
Well throughout this conversation we have decided that Karthus, Katarina, Lux, Cass, Kassadin, Akali, Anivia, Ahri, Diana, Malzahar, TF, Eve, and Orianna are all fine AP mids.
There is also a lot of people who do very well as Syndra, and there has also been support for Gragas mid.
So that's 15 champs out of a pool of 26 typical AP mids that I count.
And that's not even really looking at them all and seeing if they are still decent mid (Like Morgana, which I'm pretty sure is still a solid mid pick)
That's out of a total pool of 109 champions.
So we already agree that roughly 14% of the champs are decent AP mids that still work. And that's in a roll that represents 20% of your team, again without even really looking into the other 11 typical AP mids to see if they really aren't good in mid anymore.
You still see Ryze and Morgana do great work in Mid, and those aren't included in the 15.
I just don't see this issue you seem to think exists.
Do Brand and Annie have a tougher time in mid? Sure. But that isn't a new thing, and not indicative of the role as a whole. Veigar has always had issues and been very hit or miss. You still see Vlad every now and again, and Zyra is more popular as support so you don't see her mid much. Leblanc is another hit or miss one, and I still think Elise is awesome in mid but understand not everyone agrees with that despite the results. Fiddles is more popular for jungle, but still a good mid pick in certain matchups.
So now we're down to Xerath, Fizz, Mordekaiser.
So which AP mids have really been affected by the changes that weren't already in that exact situation? Not much has changed at all, the same AP mids that were popular mid are still playing mid and still do good work, the ones that weren't that popular mid still aren't.
AD assassins are now a good choice, but they aren't really pushing out the AP mids, they are just another option. Which opens up variety in the game. Which is awesome.
I dont think that AP mid is dead, but I do think that they have to be part of a conscious decision for the team comp. I don't believe that standard whomever AP mid is still the current meta. I think that in an unorganized team comp (soloque) I think we will see AD mids picked much more often and have better win rates. Or, it will be an AP assassin like akali or eve.
I agree sampsen, there are still some CLEARLY broken items, and not every role got addressed appropriately. Supports and AD Casters? Yep, they got good shit. Bruisers did, too. AD's are changed, because the game is now about shred and pen and less AS and Crit (and armor is still damn effective early game), but AP Mids, they got a cool thing in Liandry's, and.... well that's it. I guess that the Tear items are now off the DON'T BUILD UNLESS YOU ARE ANIVIA OR URGOT OR YORICK list, but the best junglers seem to be tanky cc, and AP mids are just very meh right now.
This is largely because AP mid was already at the itemization Riot wanted and they brought the rest up in line with AP Mid in terms of power and variety.
I also remain unconvinced that AP mid is going away. I agree it's out of style at the moment as other options are now viable, but there is still nothing wrong wtih taking an AP mid. It's just not the ONLY option anymore. Which is fine by me.
I don't see the need to buff AP either, they seem quite powerful atm, people are just not impressed because they didn't get a massive overhaul they didn't actually need.
5 ad is actually possible and viable, more than 1 ap is a bad idea. You could even argue 1 ap is worse than 5 ad, with the exception of a small list of characters. You don't see an issue with this?
Firstly, I don't agree with your assertion. If you can argue 5 ad is better, please do.
Secondly. No I don't see an issue with it, I like variety, and don't agree that AP is outclassed right now. Not when I can still decimate in games as AP mid.
Veigar, Annie, Brand, Kassadin, Akali, Ziggs, Xerath, Fizz, Galio, Heimer, Kennen, Leblanc, Sion, Syndra, Swain, Viktor. None of these characters see any real playtime in pro games for a reason, and you would probably prefer lee/corki or some other AP counterpick in mid in general these days, especially if one of these was picked. AD itemisation is just way way better now, and I foresee that ap in general is gonna get even more uncommon unless they change something. Choosing 5 AD or 1 AP is not more choice than we had before, being able to run ap top/mid/Jungle with the right comp, OR 5 AD would be, but that won't happen as it looks now.
I don't give shit what works for you, unless you are a pro. The only thing that matters is balance at the highest level of the game, everything else is pointless.
Phantoml0rd just crushed with Ziggs in S3 qualifiers... Just because people aren't playing a particular champion doesn't mean they're not good or viable.
Edit: I ran Morgana top yesterday as well. I think we'll still be seeing AP's in solo lanes
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
Then we want different things from the game. I want an enjoyable environment where I play, which I have whatever they do essentially.
And a well rounded pro level where there is a depth in picking as well as ingame strat. Riot is negative to depth in picking though, so I suppose I have to live with that.
0
Options
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
I think both AD and AP mids are viable now and AD is seeing a ton of play due to being a new experience. However, because they are a new experience most players are unfamiliar with the matchups and are having a hard time adjusting.
I think the S3 AP item changes buffed their midgame but weakened their late. You get the upgrade efficiency spikes earlier due to the cost reductions but slot efficiency also went down. AD caster and bruiser itemization have a smoother transition between game phases and definitely a better late game so I think they make for better "all in" damage spikes but even then a lot of utilityless APs are just as competitive, like Eve.
APs usually have an enormous range advantage in team fights. Once people start punishing "all in" play styles from AD casters and assassins, they won't seem as dominating but right now most players tunnel vision team fights and have no clue how to peel.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Pros tend to lean towards what the easiest characters are to play too (especially in the fighting game community) because money is on the line.
They actually lean towards the most realistically effective characters from what I see. Which sometimes are the easy ones I suppose, but generally it means those that are only effective in a perfect environment don't see play. I don'ät watch fighting games, but that's the way it seems in mobas to me at least.
This would be why Orianna/lux are played a lot, but ziggs/syndra are not. Two of those have a way easier time getting their combos off. I suppose this would be why visage doesn't really see a lot of play in dota as well, as he is one of those godlike in theory dudes, but noone can really pull it off in a real situation.
You mean people forgot how to peel between s2 and s3 eesang? Or maybe they are just doing too much unmitigatable damage right now.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
Then we want different things from the game. I want an enjoyable environment where I play, which I have whatever they do essentially.
And a well rounded pro level where there is a depth in picking as well as ingame strat. Riot is negative to depth in picking though, so I suppose I have to live with that.
If we had different leagues like hockey did, this wouldn't be a problem. We could give each league a slightly different set of rules and all would be well. As it is, Riot cannot hang it's casual base out to dry because X champ is underpowered when played against the professionals. The same thing would happen to League that is happening to SC2.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
Then we want different things from the game. I want an enjoyable environment where I play, which I have whatever they do essentially.
And a well rounded pro level where there is a depth in picking as well as ingame strat. Riot is negative to depth in picking though, so I suppose I have to live with that.
As Skut mentioned the Pros will almost always pick based on ease of use and power. They also play in well polished teams and focus a lot more on team synergy.
Riot has released the numbers showing there is more variety in the tournaments than there used to be, it's something they track and work towards increasing. It will never be perfect, but it is something they strive for.
The problem is that the champion pool will only increase, and Pros will not spend all their time trying to get good with every champ, they focus on a few and get really good on those before adding to their roster. I don't foresee ever seeing true perfect viability in the pro scene because the pros aren't going to work on it either. Money is on the line, and they will always choose the easiest path to victory, which is entirely understandable.
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Pros tend to lean towards what the easiest characters are to play too (especially in the fighting game community) because money is on the line.
You mean people forgot how to peel between s2 and s3 eesang? Or maybe they are just doing too much unmitigatable damage right now.
Peeling has always been a skill sorely lacking in this game, it's just more obvious now with the increase in assassins who can blow up a carry in one combo. I also think part of the problem is that people aren't playing against AD casters properly yet, so they are stronger than they should be in the midgame due to getting fed and getting too much easy cs.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
Then we want different things from the game. I want an enjoyable environment where I play, which I have whatever they do essentially.
And a well rounded pro level where there is a depth in picking as well as ingame strat. Riot is negative to depth in picking though, so I suppose I have to live with that.
As Skut mentioned the Pros will almost always pick based on ease of use and power. They also play in well polished teams and focus a lot more on team synergy.
Riot has released the numbers showing there is more variety in the tournaments than there used to be, it's something they track and work towards increasing. It will never be perfect, but it is something they strive for.
The problem is that the champion pool will only increase, and Pros will not spend all their time trying to get good with every champ, they focus on a few and get really good on those before adding to their roster. I don't foresee ever seeing true perfect viability in the pro scene because the pros aren't going to work on it either. Money is on the line, and they will always choose the easiest path to victory, which is entirely understandable.
Oh yes, pros will always pick what is the easiest path to victory for them, and we will never have perfect viability. But it seems to me s3 will, unless changed rather heavily, stagnate faster than season 2 did (even if it got somewhat shaken up towards the end) due to itemisation heavily favoring stacking one damage type.
And sampsen, SC2 was actually really damn good until recently, when a stagnat strategy kind of made people despair a bit. I don't have a problem with a game being mainly a spectator sport, I spend vastly more time watching sc2 rather than playing it, and so do a fair few others I know off. I'm not saying league needs to become that way, but it is not necessarily a bad thing.
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
Then we want different things from the game. I want an enjoyable environment where I play, which I have whatever they do essentially.
And a well rounded pro level where there is a depth in picking as well as ingame strat. Riot is negative to depth in picking though, so I suppose I have to live with that.
As Skut mentioned the Pros will almost always pick based on ease of use and power. They also play in well polished teams and focus a lot more on team synergy.
Riot has released the numbers showing there is more variety in the tournaments than there used to be, it's something they track and work towards increasing. It will never be perfect, but it is something they strive for.
The problem is that the champion pool will only increase, and Pros will not spend all their time trying to get good with every champ, they focus on a few and get really good on those before adding to their roster. I don't foresee ever seeing true perfect viability in the pro scene because the pros aren't going to work on it either. Money is on the line, and they will always choose the easiest path to victory, which is entirely understandable.
Oh yes, pros will always pick what is the easiest path to victory for them, and we will never have perfect viability. But it seems to me s3 will, unless changed rather heavily, stagnate faster than season 2 did (even if it got somewhat shaken up towards the end) due to itemisation heavily favoring stacking one damage type.
And sampsen, SC2 was actually really damn good until recently, when a stagnat strategy kind of made people despair a bit. I don't have a problem with a game being mainly a spectator sport, I spend vastly more time watching sc2 rather than playing it, and so do a fair few others I know off. I'm not saying league needs to become that way, but it is not necessarily a bad thing.
You should ask the SC2 pros if they like the current state as their prize pools diminish and sponsors start leaving for more lucrative fields as viewers continue to drop.
Also I don't see how your conclusions lead to quicker stagnation since there is more variety now. Seems like those concepts would be at odds.
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
The long range safe ones do just fine as well. Ziggs, Lux, Anivia, Cassiopeaia. Ahri is fine with her mobility and power. Diana still does fine even after her nerfs, and they are buffing her again.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
Then we want different things from the game. I want an enjoyable environment where I play, which I have whatever they do essentially.
And a well rounded pro level where there is a depth in picking as well as ingame strat. Riot is negative to depth in picking though, so I suppose I have to live with that.
As Skut mentioned the Pros will almost always pick based on ease of use and power. They also play in well polished teams and focus a lot more on team synergy.
Riot has released the numbers showing there is more variety in the tournaments than there used to be, it's something they track and work towards increasing. It will never be perfect, but it is something they strive for.
The problem is that the champion pool will only increase, and Pros will not spend all their time trying to get good with every champ, they focus on a few and get really good on those before adding to their roster. I don't foresee ever seeing true perfect viability in the pro scene because the pros aren't going to work on it either. Money is on the line, and they will always choose the easiest path to victory, which is entirely understandable.
Oh yes, pros will always pick what is the easiest path to victory for them, and we will never have perfect viability. But it seems to me s3 will, unless changed rather heavily, stagnate faster than season 2 did (even if it got somewhat shaken up towards the end) due to itemisation heavily favoring stacking one damage type.
And sampsen, SC2 was actually really damn good until recently, when a stagnat strategy kind of made people despair a bit. I don't have a problem with a game being mainly a spectator sport, I spend vastly more time watching sc2 rather than playing it, and so do a fair few others I know off. I'm not saying league needs to become that way, but it is not necessarily a bad thing.
I completely disagree with your idea that the game should be balanced around the pros and I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise. At this point I think we're arguing in circles and there is not much point talking about this.
(oh, btw - who was having trouble with Jungle Kayle? She seems no different than before)
I felt like I was taking waaay too much damage and couldn't farm until I got Wriggles, and couldn't gank because of all the damage I was taking, but that game was kind of fucked generally so I don't know. But I'm going to be avoiding the jungle anyway until they fix the monster health.
I hate it when people play "support Kayle" because they play as if they're Soraka and then are completely useless because they have no items. If you want to run her as a kill lane go for it, I imagine her and Fiora would instagib anyone at level 2, but she does not fit into the traditional support role at all.
Posts
These are three out of... a lot. And they are good despite being ap, not because they are ap.
So uh, yeah still plenty of options. And I'm not even including them all those are just the first few that come to mind.
I mean it's a nice thought that suddenly AP mid is dying out but realistically you are just seeing more options in mid which is a good thing. I'm all for more options and variety in the game. Each option has it's role it fills and has a place in certain comps.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Is it ever a worse option, though?
Pure AD teams might add variety, but if there's no downside to running them I think that's a problem.
I don't agree that there is no downside. I still stack armor against pure AD teams, and that works fine for me. It's still a better idea to have some variety in damage types. That is not completely nullified by one item (bulwark) Having an AP on the team still forces the enemy to build MR in defense (It;s always funny when they don't because it just lets me wreck them)
I get what you guys are trying to say, but I don't agree that it exists to the level you seem to think it does.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Lux sees play, which is why she wasn't on my list. I haven't seen cass in a while, but she might be good enough to compete as her ult is good to counter divey teams with. Ziggs hasn't been played in a serious game for ages, and I'm not sure if ahri is actually good enough still. Anivia has the wall, meaning a good player will still be godmode with her.
My point is that the pool of playable AP characters is shrinking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them played less as people realize ad assassins do a better job of it apart from a few exceptions.
I don't understand what you mean? Most characters succeed or fail based on their mechanics and abilities, not on their damage type. More to the point, they are strong AP heroes. I am not sure you can handwave that aspect of their character away. The AP pool may shrink considerably, which may necessitate action from riot, but I don't think AP mid is headed towards extinction.
They will certainly need to look at many of the burst casters though, who've certainly taken a hit.
Also, I think it is worth mentioning that most (if not all) of the AP heroes you mentioned saw little or no play during season 2, before the itemization changes.
No. The pool of PLAYED AP mids is shrinking. Which is just a matter of shifting tastes as other options are made available. They are all still very PLAYABLE. There is a huge difference between the two which goes back to the whole concept of "Viable" or "unplayable" champs and how absurd that line of thinking is with the level of balance that exists in the general level of play we are mostly at.
Additionally the champion pool is huge. There we always be more played champs and less played champs and not much of that is based on the power of the champ, but shifts in popularity that come and go based on a variety of factors (some of which is buffs and nerfs, some of which is random shifts)
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
I must quickly reverse positions!
Well, the league competitive scene is surprisingly small which might lead to the only reason we see a select few champs is because people feel like playing them rather than them being bad.
I don't see why that is more likely than most AP champs being bad compared to AD or AD bruiser counterparts though. And while the champion pool is huge, if 80% of a team is one kind of champ, and 20% is another, that's worse diversity. But hey, you can go 5 bruiser now, so yay?
1. Take an AD assassin mid
2. Take a jungler with 2 forms of CC (Lee Sin, Chogath, Xin Zhao)
3. Camp Mid lane
4. Win game.
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
Me on Twitch!
Care to teach me the secret of how you are pulling that off?
By my count I could manage 24 from runes and masteries, 10 from cleaver, 8% from masteries, 35% from whisper, and at full stacks 25% for a total of 40% ~ 55% and 34 flat pen. Unless we were talking about Olaf and I overlooked it?
You're focusing far too much on the pros and what they do.
Balance below pro level is irrellevant.
If 5 bruiser is an option, and 3 AD caster + Support + 1 ADC is an option, and if 1 Bruiser + Jungle + AP MID + Support + ADC is option - then yes that is a net benefit to the game. Now different teams can use different makeups for different compositions.
If the game becomes 5 bruisers all day every day, then I am sure Riot will quickly address that oppression.
We're not even remotely near that point right now.
So far the 5 AD Bruiser/Caster teams I've seen have been rather underwhelming.
I'm not saying that AP mids are completely dead or not worth playing or anything extreme as that. I just think that AD champs being able to reduce an enemy's armour by 25% and then ignore a further 43% of it with only two items and a mastery point is too strong, and this makes physical damage relatively more difficult to deal with than magical damage.
wat?
So the enjoyment of the game for 99.9999% of the players is irrellevant? I guarantee you that Riot doesn't feel the same way. It's why Tryndamere doesn't get buffs. He's considered weak at the top tiers, but doesn't see buffs because he stomps the hell out of lower elo players.
This seems more reasonable as a position, and I agree.
Possibly. I can't fathom why Riot hasn't helped him out. Probably because there isn't really a desire to buff him from the player base. Once you've seen what fed Tryandemere can do, it's like wanting to buff a war crime.
Go on
Well throughout this conversation we have decided that Karthus, Katarina, Lux, Cass, Kassadin, Akali, Anivia, Ahri, Diana, Malzahar, TF, Eve, and Orianna are all fine AP mids.
There is also a lot of people who do very well as Syndra, and there has also been support for Gragas mid.
So that's 15 champs out of a pool of 26 typical AP mids that I count.
And that's not even really looking at them all and seeing if they are still decent mid (Like Morgana, which I'm pretty sure is still a solid mid pick)
That's out of a total pool of 109 champions.
So we already agree that roughly 14% of the champs are decent AP mids that still work. And that's in a roll that represents 20% of your team, again without even really looking into the other 11 typical AP mids to see if they really aren't good in mid anymore.
You still see Ryze and Morgana do great work in Mid, and those aren't included in the 15.
I just don't see this issue you seem to think exists.
Do Brand and Annie have a tougher time in mid? Sure. But that isn't a new thing, and not indicative of the role as a whole. Veigar has always had issues and been very hit or miss. You still see Vlad every now and again, and Zyra is more popular as support so you don't see her mid much. Leblanc is another hit or miss one, and I still think Elise is awesome in mid but understand not everyone agrees with that despite the results. Fiddles is more popular for jungle, but still a good mid pick in certain matchups.
So now we're down to Xerath, Fizz, Mordekaiser.
So which AP mids have really been affected by the changes that weren't already in that exact situation? Not much has changed at all, the same AP mids that were popular mid are still playing mid and still do good work, the ones that weren't that popular mid still aren't.
AD assassins are now a good choice, but they aren't really pushing out the AP mids, they are just another option. Which opens up variety in the game. Which is awesome.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
This is bullshit, and Riot has repeatedly said that they think about the entire playerbase when they do balancing. They balance for pro, but they also try to make sure that the majority of the playerbase has a fun experience, which is why hardcore pub stomp champs get adjusted as well. IT's impossible to adjust for everything, but Riot doesn't just ignore the majority of the playerbase as well.
And considering none of us are Pro, it's kind of pointless to make assertions based entirely on how champs are balanced in the pro scene, it would be irrelevant to the game we actually play. It's fun to follow the pro scene, and even aspire to join it, but practically we don't play in that realm, and should make our daily decisions based on what we actually deal with.
When you get to 2200+ Elo feel free to make decisions in the game based on the minor differences that have much more influence at that level. I try to bring a practical level of discussion to the table which people can actually use in the games they play.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
I dont think that AP mid is dead, but I do think that they have to be part of a conscious decision for the team comp. I don't believe that standard whomever AP mid is still the current meta. I think that in an unorganized team comp (soloque) I think we will see AD mids picked much more often and have better win rates. Or, it will be an AP assassin like akali or eve.
Phantoml0rd just crushed with Ziggs in S3 qualifiers... Just because people aren't playing a particular champion doesn't mean they're not good or viable.
Edit: I ran Morgana top yesterday as well. I think we'll still be seeing AP's in solo lanes
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
Me on Twitch!
Then we want different things from the game. I want an enjoyable environment where I play, which I have whatever they do essentially.
And a well rounded pro level where there is a depth in picking as well as ingame strat. Riot is negative to depth in picking though, so I suppose I have to live with that.
I think the S3 AP item changes buffed their midgame but weakened their late. You get the upgrade efficiency spikes earlier due to the cost reductions but slot efficiency also went down. AD caster and bruiser itemization have a smoother transition between game phases and definitely a better late game so I think they make for better "all in" damage spikes but even then a lot of utilityless APs are just as competitive, like Eve.
APs usually have an enormous range advantage in team fights. Once people start punishing "all in" play styles from AD casters and assassins, they won't seem as dominating but right now most players tunnel vision team fights and have no clue how to peel.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
They actually lean towards the most realistically effective characters from what I see. Which sometimes are the easy ones I suppose, but generally it means those that are only effective in a perfect environment don't see play. I don'ät watch fighting games, but that's the way it seems in mobas to me at least.
This would be why Orianna/lux are played a lot, but ziggs/syndra are not. Two of those have a way easier time getting their combos off. I suppose this would be why visage doesn't really see a lot of play in dota as well, as he is one of those godlike in theory dudes, but noone can really pull it off in a real situation.
You mean people forgot how to peel between s2 and s3 eesang? Or maybe they are just doing too much unmitigatable damage right now.
If we had different leagues like hockey did, this wouldn't be a problem. We could give each league a slightly different set of rules and all would be well. As it is, Riot cannot hang it's casual base out to dry because X champ is underpowered when played against the professionals. The same thing would happen to League that is happening to SC2.
As Skut mentioned the Pros will almost always pick based on ease of use and power. They also play in well polished teams and focus a lot more on team synergy.
Riot has released the numbers showing there is more variety in the tournaments than there used to be, it's something they track and work towards increasing. It will never be perfect, but it is something they strive for.
The problem is that the champion pool will only increase, and Pros will not spend all their time trying to get good with every champ, they focus on a few and get really good on those before adding to their roster. I don't foresee ever seeing true perfect viability in the pro scene because the pros aren't going to work on it either. Money is on the line, and they will always choose the easiest path to victory, which is entirely understandable.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Peeling has always been a skill sorely lacking in this game, it's just more obvious now with the increase in assassins who can blow up a carry in one combo. I also think part of the problem is that people aren't playing against AD casters properly yet, so they are stronger than they should be in the midgame due to getting fed and getting too much easy cs.
Oh yes, pros will always pick what is the easiest path to victory for them, and we will never have perfect viability. But it seems to me s3 will, unless changed rather heavily, stagnate faster than season 2 did (even if it got somewhat shaken up towards the end) due to itemisation heavily favoring stacking one damage type.
And sampsen, SC2 was actually really damn good until recently, when a stagnat strategy kind of made people despair a bit. I don't have a problem with a game being mainly a spectator sport, I spend vastly more time watching sc2 rather than playing it, and so do a fair few others I know off. I'm not saying league needs to become that way, but it is not necessarily a bad thing.
You should ask the SC2 pros if they like the current state as their prize pools diminish and sponsors start leaving for more lucrative fields as viewers continue to drop.
Also I don't see how your conclusions lead to quicker stagnation since there is more variety now. Seems like those concepts would be at odds.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
I completely disagree with your idea that the game should be balanced around the pros and I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise. At this point I think we're arguing in circles and there is not much point talking about this.
I hate it when people play "support Kayle" because they play as if they're Soraka and then are completely useless because they have no items. If you want to run her as a kill lane go for it, I imagine her and Fiora would instagib anyone at level 2, but she does not fit into the traditional support role at all.