We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.
For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.
We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.
this comes across as kind of half-assed
Were they trying to pass this off as a "zombie" torso prior to the outrage, or are they backpedaling hard? Because the name of the collectors edition implies that it's a victim. Not to mention the very unzombielike skin tone as pointed out earlier in the thread.
Edit: This thread moves fast.
Yeah I don't see anything zombified in the statue.
I completely agree - you don't bait zombies with other zombies, you do it with fresh non-zombie meat.
Eww, does that imply the PLAYER actually had to hack some woman's corpse up?
I can see a situation where all parties involved decide that a mutilated zombie torso would be a neat little statue to include in the collector's edition, only for some clown in the marketing department going all "this mutilated zombie torso just aint sexy enough, and that's a problem because all I know about marketing is that sex sells".
As has been pointed out by many others, which part of this tit torso has identifying marks of "zombifcation."
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Alright. Glad we sorted that out! I think you guys are wrong and you think I'm wrong. Welcome to the Internet!
You could not have missed the point more. You don't like it because it's ugly, we all agree. We don't like it because it's ugly AND mysoginistic; you give us a golf clap for effort.
No. I fucking get it. It is sexist because it has perfect boobs. Which is a lie because everyone knows that even if it didn't have the boobs you guys would still be up in arms about how it's a woman's corpse mutilated and not a man's corpse.
YAY LOGICAL FALLACY!
Please, go on telling me how offended I'd be if the statue was less offensive.
Please keep telling me how I'm a horrible person for not seeing anything sexist from a fucking corpse statue. I do love hearing that.
Wow man, keep fucking that chicken and putting words in people's mouths that no one said and feeling all butthurt because people other than you realize this shit actually matters and hurts the industry. No one is making a judgement about you, we're pointing out that your opinion on the matter doesn't change the reality of the situation.
If you can't handle that, and it fucks up your worldview, and makes you feel all sad inside, maybe you shouldn't talk about this shit.
This is where I have to completely disagree. The statue is ugly and stupid yes, definitely sexist and maybe misogynistic. But to say that this statue is ruining the Video Game Industry? That's just absolutely knee jerk and wrong. The industry can appeal to a large variety, but there are specific games that will try to appeal to more specific core audiences. I really enjoy playing video games with my girlfriend and to that end I like that the industry has a wide variety of games that can appeal to everyone. But if there can be a porn industry then I don't see why including something like this in video games is hurting the industry. Its certainly not something I am going to be picking up, but then you don't see me boycotting cinema because some movies are made with dumb girls with huge boobs.
The porn industry is a niche industry. Was Dead Island a niche game? No.
Look at this from a different perspective, from outside the industry/subculture. Gamers already have a tendancy to be viewed as antisocial, odd, sexist, racist, and violent. Do you think this statue, if the main stream media gets ahold of it, is going to help change that view? Do you think with the outrage inside the community, that this statue will be seen as anything other than another example of video games being for men, by men? Again, this isn't a niche title. This is a big deal game.
That's how it hurts the industry, it helps re enforce the stereotypes of the industry. It helps make the industry be even more insular because no one wants this kind of shit. And once again, the fact that this is what the industry has to offer us, no matter how offensive we think this statue is, is an example of how ignoring the smaller examples of sexism in the industry has pushed it to this point. It's ok that we get this as a collectible for a game, because we don't care about how we're perceived, or if the industry is allowed to move away from the sexist culture that it's turn out to be.
I think that with the wider variety of games in the industry and the introduction of the Wii U that now you can exercise while playing and your whole family will play games with you, that the "stereotypical" gamer is no longer viewed that way at all. This is a personal observation but games are a lot more socially acceptable now. One bad egg (Dead Island 2) is not going to ruin the tremendous upswing the industry has taken to uniting everyone in my opinion.
We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.
For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.
We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.
this comes across as kind of half-assed
Were they trying to pass this off as a "zombie" torso prior to the outrage, or are they backpedaling hard? Because the name of the collectors edition implies that it's a victim. Not to mention the very unzombielike skin tone as pointed out earlier in the thread.
Edit: This thread moves fast.
Yeah I don't see anything zombified in the statue.
I completely agree - you don't bait zombies with other zombies, you do it with fresh non-zombie meat.
Dead Island is about an ongoing zombie outbreak, right? Does the skin turn all grey right away, could she just be a recent convert?
Just for argument's sake, if they wanted to really stick to their guns calling it a zombie.
We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.
For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.
We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.
this comes across as kind of half-assed
Were they trying to pass this off as a "zombie" torso prior to the outrage, or are they backpedaling hard? Because the name of the collectors edition implies that it's a victim. Not to mention the very unzombielike skin tone as pointed out earlier in the thread.
Edit: This thread moves fast.
Yeah I don't see anything zombified in the statue.
I completely agree - you don't bait zombies with other zombies, you do it with fresh non-zombie meat.
Eww, does that imply the PLAYER actually had to hack some woman's corpse up?
I don't know - I'm just saying I've never played a zombie game where the zombies are lured away from the player by wanting to eat delicious zombie meat. The phrase Zombie Bait to me combined with the non-zombie looking flesh certainly makes me lean that way.
We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.
For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.
We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.
this comes across as kind of half-assed
Were they trying to pass this off as a "zombie" torso prior to the outrage, or are they backpedaling hard? Because the name of the collectors edition implies that it's a victim. Not to mention the very unzombielike skin tone as pointed out earlier in the thread.
Edit: This thread moves fast.
Yeah I don't see anything zombified in the statue.
I completely agree - you don't bait zombies with other zombies, you do it with fresh non-zombie meat.
Dead Island is about an ongoing zombie outbreak, right? Does the skin turn all grey right away, could she just be a recent convert?
Just for argument's sake, if they wanted to really stick to their guns calling it a zombie.
She COULD be an Infected, which is a still living person with the virus but they, and I mean ALL of them, have head and limbs. And they tend to be a little greyer.
Alright. Glad we sorted that out! I think you guys are wrong and you think I'm wrong. Welcome to the Internet!
You could not have missed the point more. You don't like it because it's ugly, we all agree. We don't like it because it's ugly AND mysoginistic; you give us a golf clap for effort.
No. I fucking get it. It is sexist because it has perfect boobs. Which is a lie because everyone knows that even if it didn't have the boobs you guys would still be up in arms about how it's a woman's corpse mutilated and not a man's corpse.
YAY LOGICAL FALLACY!
Please, go on telling me how offended I'd be if the statue was less offensive.
Please keep telling me how I'm a horrible person for not seeing anything sexist from a fucking corpse statue. I do love hearing that.
Wow man, keep fucking that chicken and putting words in people's mouths that no one said and feeling all butthurt because people other than you realize this shit actually matters and hurts the industry. No one is making a judgement about you, we're pointing out that your opinion on the matter doesn't change the reality of the situation.
If you can't handle that, and it fucks up your worldview, and makes you feel all sad inside, maybe you shouldn't talk about this shit.
This is where I have to completely disagree. The statue is ugly and stupid yes, definitely sexist and maybe misogynistic. But to say that this statue is ruining the Video Game Industry? That's just absolutely knee jerk and wrong. The industry can appeal to a large variety, but there are specific games that will try to appeal to more specific core audiences. I really enjoy playing video games with my girlfriend and to that end I like that the industry has a wide variety of games that can appeal to everyone. But if there can be a porn industry then I don't see why including something like this in video games is hurting the industry. Its certainly not something I am going to be picking up, but then you don't see me boycotting cinema because some movies are made with dumb girls with huge boobs.
The porn industry is a niche industry. Was Dead Island a niche game? No.
Look at this from a different perspective, from outside the industry/subculture. Gamers already have a tendancy to be viewed as antisocial, odd, sexist, racist, and violent. Do you think this statue, if the main stream media gets ahold of it, is going to help change that view? Do you think with the outrage inside the community, that this statue will be seen as anything other than another example of video games being for men, by men? Again, this isn't a niche title. This is a big deal game.
That's how it hurts the industry, it helps re enforce the stereotypes of the industry. It helps make the industry be even more insular because no one wants this kind of shit. And once again, the fact that this is what the industry has to offer us, no matter how offensive we think this statue is, is an example of how ignoring the smaller examples of sexism in the industry has pushed it to this point. It's ok that we get this as a collectible for a game, because we don't care about how we're perceived, or if the industry is allowed to move away from the sexist culture that it's turn out to be.
I think that with the wider variety of games in the industry and the introduction of the Wii U that now you can exercise while playing and your whole family will play games with you, that the "stereotypical" gamer is no longer viewed that way at all. This is a personal observation but games are a lot more socially acceptable now. One bad egg (Dead Island 2) is not going to ruin the tremendous upswing the industry has taken to uniting everyone in my opinion.
I can see a situation where all parties involved decide that a mutilated zombie torso would be a neat little statue to include in the collector's edition, only for some clown in the marketing department going all "this mutilated zombie torso just aint sexy enough, and that's a problem because all I know about marketing is that sex sells".
As has been pointed out by many others, which part of this tit torso has identifying marks of "zombifcation."
The part that was there before clown sexification? Jesus people.
I cannot wait until some game includes a blow-up doll and then people are like "oh well it's in the game so it's okay!" and also "if it was a wookiee you wouldn't have a problem so clearly this isn't sexist either."
OK, then explain how it's misogynistic. I think it's sexist because of its idealistic (to put it foolishly) portrayal of the female body. But can you prove 100% that it exists because the creator hates women? I'm going with the dictionary definition here, so please, if you can explain to me how that is a wrong interpretation of the word, I'd appreciate and welcome it.
You are confused on the definition of misogyny, likely because you are relying on a understanding of the term that begins and ends with the dictionary. Misogyny is not simply people who say "I hate women and they shouldn't be allowed to vote and they're braindead," aka people that everyone on Earth thinks are stupid. If your characterization of a term in debate is to such absurdity that you're relying on that very absurdity to garner agreement, you need to reconsider your position in the argument.
Misogyny is a thing that people can participate in without really meaning to. They don't even need to be "bad people" that can be trivially dismissed in strawmen.
Alright. Glad we sorted that out! I think you guys are wrong and you think I'm wrong. Welcome to the Internet!
You could not have missed the point more. You don't like it because it's ugly, we all agree. We don't like it because it's ugly AND mysoginistic; you give us a golf clap for effort.
No. I fucking get it. It is sexist because it has perfect boobs. Which is a lie because everyone knows that even if it didn't have the boobs you guys would still be up in arms about how it's a woman's corpse mutilated and not a man's corpse.
YAY LOGICAL FALLACY!
Please, go on telling me how offended I'd be if the statue was less offensive.
Please keep telling me how I'm a horrible person for not seeing anything sexist from a fucking corpse statue. I do love hearing that.
Wow man, keep fucking that chicken and putting words in people's mouths that no one said and feeling all butthurt because people other than you realize this shit actually matters and hurts the industry. No one is making a judgement about you, we're pointing out that your opinion on the matter doesn't change the reality of the situation.
If you can't handle that, and it fucks up your worldview, and makes you feel all sad inside, maybe you shouldn't talk about this shit.
This is where I have to completely disagree. The statue is ugly and stupid yes, definitely sexist and maybe misogynistic. But to say that this statue is ruining the Video Game Industry? That's just absolutely knee jerk and wrong. The industry can appeal to a large variety, but there are specific games that will try to appeal to more specific core audiences. I really enjoy playing video games with my girlfriend and to that end I like that the industry has a wide variety of games that can appeal to everyone. But if there can be a porn industry then I don't see why including something like this in video games is hurting the industry. Its certainly not something I am going to be picking up, but then you don't see me boycotting cinema because some movies are made with dumb girls with huge boobs.
The porn industry is a niche industry. Was Dead Island a niche game? No.
Look at this from a different perspective, from outside the industry/subculture. Gamers already have a tendancy to be viewed as antisocial, odd, sexist, racist, and violent. Do you think this statue, if the main stream media gets ahold of it, is going to help change that view? Do you think with the outrage inside the community, that this statue will be seen as anything other than another example of video games being for men, by men? Again, this isn't a niche title. This is a big deal game.
That's how it hurts the industry, it helps re enforce the stereotypes of the industry. It helps make the industry be even more insular because no one wants this kind of shit. And once again, the fact that this is what the industry has to offer us, no matter how offensive we think this statue is, is an example of how ignoring the smaller examples of sexism in the industry has pushed it to this point. It's ok that we get this as a collectible for a game, because we don't care about how we're perceived, or if the industry is allowed to move away from the sexist culture that it's turn out to be.
I think that with the wider variety of games in the industry and the introduction of the Wii U that now you can exercise while playing and your whole family will play games with you, that the "stereotypical" gamer is no longer viewed that way at all. This is a personal observation but games are a lot more socially acceptable now. One bad egg (Dead Island 2) is not going to ruin the tremendous upswing the industry has taken to uniting everyone in my opinion.
Could someone explain why anyone would want this?
I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted marketing stunt would be appreciated.
We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.
For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.
We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.
this comes across as kind of half-assed
Your avatar is perfect for this.
Also the bolded implies that they expect fans to dismember the female form so that tit's, arse and quim are all that's left.
Hey deep silver with your feministwhore puma history, go fuck yourselves.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Alright. Glad we sorted that out! I think you guys are wrong and you think I'm wrong. Welcome to the Internet!
You could not have missed the point more. You don't like it because it's ugly, we all agree. We don't like it because it's ugly AND mysoginistic; you give us a golf clap for effort.
No. I fucking get it. It is sexist because it has perfect boobs. Which is a lie because everyone knows that even if it didn't have the boobs you guys would still be up in arms about how it's a woman's corpse mutilated and not a man's corpse.
YAY LOGICAL FALLACY!
Please, go on telling me how offended I'd be if the statue was less offensive.
Please keep telling me how I'm a horrible person for not seeing anything sexist from a fucking corpse statue. I do love hearing that.
Wow man, keep fucking that chicken and putting words in people's mouths that no one said and feeling all butthurt because people other than you realize this shit actually matters and hurts the industry. No one is making a judgement about you, we're pointing out that your opinion on the matter doesn't change the reality of the situation.
If you can't handle that, and it fucks up your worldview, and makes you feel all sad inside, maybe you shouldn't talk about this shit.
This is where I have to completely disagree. The statue is ugly and stupid yes, definitely sexist and maybe misogynistic. But to say that this statue is ruining the Video Game Industry? That's just absolutely knee jerk and wrong. The industry can appeal to a large variety, but there are specific games that will try to appeal to more specific core audiences. I really enjoy playing video games with my girlfriend and to that end I like that the industry has a wide variety of games that can appeal to everyone. But if there can be a porn industry then I don't see why including something like this in video games is hurting the industry. Its certainly not something I am going to be picking up, but then you don't see me boycotting cinema because some movies are made with dumb girls with huge boobs.
The porn industry is a niche industry. Was Dead Island a niche game? No.
Look at this from a different perspective, from outside the industry/subculture. Gamers already have a tendancy to be viewed as antisocial, odd, sexist, racist, and violent. Do you think this statue, if the main stream media gets ahold of it, is going to help change that view? Do you think with the outrage inside the community, that this statue will be seen as anything other than another example of video games being for men, by men? Again, this isn't a niche title. This is a big deal game.
That's how it hurts the industry, it helps re enforce the stereotypes of the industry. It helps make the industry be even more insular because no one wants this kind of shit. And once again, the fact that this is what the industry has to offer us, no matter how offensive we think this statue is, is an example of how ignoring the smaller examples of sexism in the industry has pushed it to this point. It's ok that we get this as a collectible for a game, because we don't care about how we're perceived, or if the industry is allowed to move away from the sexist culture that it's turn out to be.
I think that with the wider variety of games in the industry and the introduction of the Wii U that now you can exercise while playing and your whole family will play games with you, that the "stereotypical" gamer is no longer viewed that way at all. This is a personal observation but games are a lot more socially acceptable now. One bad egg (Dead Island 2) is not going to ruin the tremendous upswing the industry has taken to uniting everyone in my opinion.
We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.
For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.
We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.
this comes across as kind of half-assed
Were they trying to pass this off as a "zombie" torso prior to the outrage, or are they backpedaling hard? Because the name of the collectors edition implies that it's a victim. Not to mention the very unzombielike skin tone as pointed out earlier in the thread.
Edit: This thread moves fast.
Yeah I don't see anything zombified in the statue.
I completely agree - you don't bait zombies with other zombies, you do it with fresh non-zombie meat.
Eww, does that imply the PLAYER actually had to hack some woman's corpse up?
I don't know - I'm just saying I've never played a zombie game where the zombies are lured away from the player by wanting to eat delicious zombie meat. The phrase Zombie Bait to me combined with the non-zombie looking flesh certainly makes me lean that way.
Agreed, they call it zombie bait on the box. It isn't a zombie torso, in any way, whatsoever.
I'm spoilering this entire post, I'm tired of adding fuel to the fire. If anyone wants to read it, please feel free. The people I'm directly responding to within are @tastydonuts@Magic Pink and @PreciousBodilyFluids.
and Fawst, you're crusading pretty hard the "prove it's really misogyny" thing for someone who said you didn't care about this a few times already.
I care more about the witch hunt aspect to it than I do about the stupid statue, to be honest. And to continue being honest, I wanted someone crusading just as hard in the opposite direction to discuss it with, but they were too busy acting like they had a mandate from god to cast aside any attacks on their opinion.
You don't need to. It will remain mysoginistic with or without your approval.
OK, then explain how it's misogynistic. I think it's sexist because of its idealistic (to put it foolishly) portrayal of the female body. But can you prove 100% that it exists because the creator hates women? I'm going with the dictionary definition here, so please, if you can explain to me how that is a wrong interpretation of the word, I'd appreciate and welcome it.
read the last 5 pages again.
No, you don't get to wiggle out of it like that. That's not a valid explanation. You tell me what is misogynistic about it in your own words.
I've said it repeatedly already.
You've said that it's misogynistic repeatedly, you haven't explained it at all. Fine, I've asked you (specifically you, I know at least two others have given their reasoning) twice to back up your convictions; I won't bother with a third time and instead will just conclude that you can't.
You don't need to. It will remain mysoginistic with or without your approval.
OK, then explain how it's misogynistic. I think it's sexist because of its idealistic (to put it foolishly) portrayal of the female body. But can you prove 100% that it exists because the creator hates women? I'm going with the dictionary definition here, so please, if you can explain to me how that is a wrong interpretation of the word, I'd appreciate and welcome it.
It's misogynistic because it implies that women only have value as sexual objects--it's a piece that is clearly intended for display (and is sold as such), but only portrays an eroticized torso with the limbs and head violently hacked off (as if to say that the boobs are the only important part, anyway.) That's my read on it, and it's probably a waste of time to write this out because you'll no doubt find some semantic reason why it doesn't fit your criteria.
No, that's actually a great explanation of why you see it this way and I'm glad someone wrote it in their own words. I do disagree with your take on it, but that's because I don't believe that every instance of sexual objectification is a variation on misogyny. To put it bluntly, just because someone focuses on a pair of tits doesn't mean they hate women.
Hating woman is not the only aspect of misogyny. Objectifying them is just a big part if not the BIGGEST part of it and can exist completely seperately from hating them. You don't accept that so you're throwing out all this bullshit about how we aren't sitting you on our collective knee and explaining it gently to you. As this point you don't fucking deserve it.
Hating women is THE CORE FOCUS of misogyny. Hating women THROUGH sexual objectification is misogynistic. You're right objectification and hatred of women are not mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean that the existence of one proves the existence of the other. And please, don't act like you think I ever "deserved it." I had to browbeat you into giving me your explanation when you'd rather just wave your hand and deem my take on things invalid. Well, arguments don't work that way and if you wanted to really put me in my place, you'd have more than just saying "I call that that's the way it is and you can't disagree!" on your side to back it up.
If I'm coming across as a jerk it's because the implication is that if I'm not offended by it then I'm part of the problem. By extension, you may as well call me a misogynist, which I absolutely AM NOT. For the record: I don't think the statue is misogynistic and I don't think it's really that offensive given the source material it's derived from. I DO think that most everyone else overreacted to it, including myself in the opposite direction. In the end I guess there really isn't much of an argument to be had, yet here we are, yelling at each other. I'm agreeing to disagree and moving on. We all win.
You don't need to. It will remain mysoginistic with or without your approval.
OK, then explain how it's misogynistic. I think it's sexist because of its idealistic (to put it foolishly) portrayal of the female body. But can you prove 100% that it exists because the creator hates women? I'm going with the dictionary definition here, so please, if you can explain to me how that is a wrong interpretation of the word, I'd appreciate and welcome it.
read the last 5 pages again.
No, you don't get to wiggle out of it like that. That's not a valid explanation. You tell me what is misogynistic about it in your own words.
I've said it repeatedly already.
You've said that it's misogynistic repeatedly, you haven't explained it at all. Fine, I've asked you (specifically you, I know at least two others have given their reasoning) twice to back up your convictions; I won't bother with a third time and instead will just conclude that you can't.
You don't need to. It will remain mysoginistic with or without your approval.
OK, then explain how it's misogynistic. I think it's sexist because of its idealistic (to put it foolishly) portrayal of the female body. But can you prove 100% that it exists because the creator hates women? I'm going with the dictionary definition here, so please, if you can explain to me how that is a wrong interpretation of the word, I'd appreciate and welcome it.
It's misogynistic because it implies that women only have value as sexual objects--it's a piece that is clearly intended for display (and is sold as such), but only portrays an eroticized torso with the limbs and head violently hacked off (as if to say that the boobs are the only important part, anyway.) That's my read on it, and it's probably a waste of time to write this out because you'll no doubt find some semantic reason why it doesn't fit your criteria.
No, that's actually a great explanation of why you see it this way and I'm glad someone wrote it in their own words. I do disagree with your take on it, but that's because I don't believe that every instance of sexual objectification is a variation on misogyny. To put it bluntly, just because someone focuses on a pair of tits doesn't mean they hate women.
Oh my God. You really are ignoring my post just so you can continue your "it's not misogynist" tangent
Regardless of whether you want to call it misogyny, can you at least admit that the literal reduction of a woman to a pair of tits is a bad thing? Can you really not understand why some of us feel that is a bad thing and that we should express that it is a bad thing?
Oh, and to pre-emptively reply to your "lol wikipedia" response, you'll find it's an incredibly well-sourced article.
I'm sorry, I really wasn't trying to ignore you. Yes, I can admit that the literal reduction of a woman to a pair of tits CAN BE a bad thing. In the context of "hey, there's a game where you're on a beach fighting against zombies and you can cut their limbs off and shit; you can actually get a hacked up zombie torso as a collectible item!" I don't see it the same way you guys do but I can see your point, semantics aside. In the context of "this is not a good thing for the industry at this particular period in history" I can absolutely agree with you. Regarding the misogyny stuff, I gave my argument above, specifically:
Hating women is THE CORE FOCUS of misogyny. Hating women THROUGH sexual objectification is misogynistic ... objectification and hatred of women are not mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean that the existence of one proves the existence of the other.
I will no longer be spending any of my money on future Techland or Deep Silver products. I have really enjoyed their previous games, but this shit is simply reprehensible.
Alright. Glad we sorted that out! I think you guys are wrong and you think I'm wrong. Welcome to the Internet!
You could not have missed the point more. You don't like it because it's ugly, we all agree. We don't like it because it's ugly AND mysoginistic; you give us a golf clap for effort.
No. I fucking get it. It is sexist because it has perfect boobs. Which is a lie because everyone knows that even if it didn't have the boobs you guys would still be up in arms about how it's a woman's corpse mutilated and not a man's corpse.
YAY LOGICAL FALLACY!
Please, go on telling me how offended I'd be if the statue was less offensive.
Would you be offended if it was a statue of a man's torso.
Y/N?
Please explain how this is relevant in a world where such a statue does not exist.
I asked a yes or no question. Please answer the question and then I'll answer yours.
The comparison is dumb because as I'm sure you're well aware, men don't have boobs. They do not wear what is seen in society as sex symbols on their chest. If you really cannot understand this, then I see no reason to engage any further.
A better comparison would be one made by Magic Pink earlier, a man wearing a very tight speedo, its rather large member seemingly trying very hard to escape. And all that is left of this man is that, the rest bloodily removed, only its throbbing phallus, barely contained, remaining.
And yes, I would also totally classify that as objectification.
But such a statue doesn't exist and never will, and that's a very important fact to keep in mind, because why does its female counterpart exist?
I have no idea why it exists.
I'm more disturbed that people in general can perceive a dessicated torso as sexualized to begin with. By it's very nature, it's a turn off which negates it's sexuality to me. When I look at that, yes I see boobs, but I don't see anything sexual about a torso. A woman is much more than a torso and boobs to me and that's all this is: A human torso statue.
On the same coin, if I saw a mutilated body of an attractive female in real life, I wouldn't think first "Damn, she's hot." I'd be too busy barfing.
Yes, it is gross and I can see why some people want to call it misogynistic, but I don't see it as inherently sexualized by it's very nature.
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
Could someone explain why anyone would want this? I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted PR stunt would be appreciated.
The worst part about this all is: What if you really wanted everything else that came with the collector's edition, without the giant mutilated female bust? What then? It's kind of an all-inclusive deal, so tough luck, you'll have to take it all and like it? That's just pretty bad on the publisher from the point of a consumer buying an otherwise okay CE with an artbook, steel case and DLC.
You don't need to. It will remain mysoginistic with or without your approval.
OK, then explain how it's misogynistic. I think it's sexist because of its idealistic (to put it foolishly) portrayal of the female body. But can you prove 100% that it exists because the creator hates women? I'm going with the dictionary definition here, so please, if you can explain to me how that is a wrong interpretation of the word, I'd appreciate and welcome it.
read the last 5 pages again.
No, you don't get to wiggle out of it like that. That's not a valid explanation. You tell me what is misogynistic about it in your own words.
I've said it repeatedly already.
You've said that it's misogynistic repeatedly, you haven't explained it at all. Fine, I've asked you (specifically you, I know at least two others have given their reasoning) twice to back up your convictions; I won't bother with a third time and instead will just conclude that you can't.
You don't need to. It will remain mysoginistic with or without your approval.
OK, then explain how it's misogynistic. I think it's sexist because of its idealistic (to put it foolishly) portrayal of the female body. But can you prove 100% that it exists because the creator hates women? I'm going with the dictionary definition here, so please, if you can explain to me how that is a wrong interpretation of the word, I'd appreciate and welcome it.
It's misogynistic because it implies that women only have value as sexual objects--it's a piece that is clearly intended for display (and is sold as such), but only portrays an eroticized torso with the limbs and head violently hacked off (as if to say that the boobs are the only important part, anyway.) That's my read on it, and it's probably a waste of time to write this out because you'll no doubt find some semantic reason why it doesn't fit your criteria.
No, that's actually a great explanation of why you see it this way and I'm glad someone wrote it in their own words. I do disagree with your take on it, but that's because I don't believe that every instance of sexual objectification is a variation on misogyny. To put it bluntly, just because someone focuses on a pair of tits doesn't mean they hate women.
The problem is that you're treating criticism of the statue and the process that led to its creation as a statement about the core ideals of the people involved in its creation. Something can be misogynistic simply by glorifying the mistreatment of women. It doesn't have to open a window into the creator's mind and reveal that, at his core, the creator hates women. And I think that offering a model of a (specifically sexualized) mutilated woman's corpse as an item of value (to encourage people to spend more money on the game) counts as glorifying the mistreatment of women.
Could someone explain why anyone would want this?
I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted marketing stunt would be appreciated.
A couple of people have said that they know some horror movie enthusiasts who might be interested in something like this, strictly as a piece of gross out memorabilia. I could see that. That doesn't make it alright or worthwhile or the right venue or even prove that those people are not slightly crazy, but it's one demographic.
I can link you to a trailer for Jersey Shore, will that make you think everyone in New Jersey is a drunk asshat?
Your original point was that Dead Island is supposedly an island of bad perception amongst a sea of change, citing the WiiU and some vague fitness game. The counter point is that the reverse perception isn't nearly as widespread as you claimed it was. I'd actually point out that the WiiU and games like Wii Fit are more the exception to the rule, the kind that you dismissed dead island as being.
To tie it back into your jersey shore analogy about perception - where is the counter-example in media? Assuming Jersey shore is the only depiction of new jersey on tv (I dunno, I don't watch it at all) then I'd say you'd actually be proving his point. Perception is reality.
TheSonicRetard on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I don't know if I'll be buying this, but definitely not the CE.
Alright. Glad we sorted that out! I think you guys are wrong and you think I'm wrong. Welcome to the Internet!
You could not have missed the point more. You don't like it because it's ugly, we all agree. We don't like it because it's ugly AND mysoginistic; you give us a golf clap for effort.
No. I fucking get it. It is sexist because it has perfect boobs. Which is a lie because everyone knows that even if it didn't have the boobs you guys would still be up in arms about how it's a woman's corpse mutilated and not a man's corpse.
YAY LOGICAL FALLACY!
Please, go on telling me how offended I'd be if the statue was less offensive.
Please keep telling me how I'm a horrible person for not seeing anything sexist from a fucking corpse statue. I do love hearing that.
Wow man, keep fucking that chicken and putting words in people's mouths that no one said and feeling all butthurt because people other than you realize this shit actually matters and hurts the industry. No one is making a judgement about you, we're pointing out that your opinion on the matter doesn't change the reality of the situation.
If you can't handle that, and it fucks up your worldview, and makes you feel all sad inside, maybe you shouldn't talk about this shit.
This is where I have to completely disagree. The statue is ugly and stupid yes, definitely sexist and maybe misogynistic. But to say that this statue is ruining the Video Game Industry? That's just absolutely knee jerk and wrong. The industry can appeal to a large variety, but there are specific games that will try to appeal to more specific core audiences. I really enjoy playing video games with my girlfriend and to that end I like that the industry has a wide variety of games that can appeal to everyone. But if there can be a porn industry then I don't see why including something like this in video games is hurting the industry. Its certainly not something I am going to be picking up, but then you don't see me boycotting cinema because some movies are made with dumb girls with huge boobs.
The porn industry is a niche industry. Was Dead Island a niche game? No.
Look at this from a different perspective, from outside the industry/subculture. Gamers already have a tendancy to be viewed as antisocial, odd, sexist, racist, and violent. Do you think this statue, if the main stream media gets ahold of it, is going to help change that view? Do you think with the outrage inside the community, that this statue will be seen as anything other than another example of video games being for men, by men? Again, this isn't a niche title. This is a big deal game.
That's how it hurts the industry, it helps re enforce the stereotypes of the industry. It helps make the industry be even more insular because no one wants this kind of shit. And once again, the fact that this is what the industry has to offer us, no matter how offensive we think this statue is, is an example of how ignoring the smaller examples of sexism in the industry has pushed it to this point. It's ok that we get this as a collectible for a game, because we don't care about how we're perceived, or if the industry is allowed to move away from the sexist culture that it's turn out to be.
I think that with the wider variety of games in the industry and the introduction of the Wii U that now you can exercise while playing and your whole family will play games with you, that the "stereotypical" gamer is no longer viewed that way at all. This is a personal observation but games are a lot more socially acceptable now. One bad egg (Dead Island 2) is not going to ruin the tremendous upswing the industry has taken to uniting everyone in my opinion.
I can link you to a trailer for Jersey Shore, will that make you think everyone in New Jersey is a drunk asshat?
Look, I don't know how to explain the problem to you any clearer.
The video game industry already has an image problem.
The video game industry already has an issue of being a boys club both by people working in the industry, and by the gamers themselves.
This doesn't help either of those things, and is something that can be grabbed onto by those outside of the industry as a prime example of what's wrong with gaming.
If you don't understand how this is an issue, I'd suggest you look up the history of rock and roll, the history of comic books, and the history of movies and get some perspective on how this stuff works.
We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.
For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.
We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.
this comes across as kind of half-assed
Were they trying to pass this off as a "zombie" torso prior to the outrage, or are they backpedaling hard? Because the name of the collectors edition implies that it's a victim. Not to mention the very unzombielike skin tone as pointed out earlier in the thread.
Edit: This thread moves fast.
Yeah I don't see anything zombified in the statue.
I completely agree - you don't bait zombies with other zombies, you do it with fresh non-zombie meat.
Dead Island is about an ongoing zombie outbreak, right? Does the skin turn all grey right away, could she just be a recent convert?
Just for argument's sake, if they wanted to really stick to their guns calling it a zombie.
She COULD be an Infected, which is a still living person with the virus but they, and I mean ALL of them, have head and limbs. And they tend to be a little greyer.
I just now realized the apology was implying that was supposed to be a zombie torso (which makes it kind of worse, really...)
The infected in Dead Island also had little sores/cuts all over them. That statue is clearly not a zombie in anyway... I'm trying to be a little sympathetic to the devs/marketing team in that they were trying to do a thing with this statue but did it extremely poorly...
Half-assed BS excuses like that though...
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
The worst part about this all is: What if you really wanted everything else that came with the collector's edition, without the giant mutilated female bust? What then? It's kind of an all-inclusive deal, so tough luck, you'll have to take it all and like it? That's just pretty bad on the publisher from the point of a consumer buying an otherwise okay CE with an artbook, steel case and DLC.
Just throw it out? Like, of all the things wrong with it, "part of a more sane package deal" isn't in the top 10, let alone the worst part.
Could someone explain why anyone would want this?
I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted marketing stunt would be appreciated.
A couple of people have said that they know some horror movie enthusiasts who might be interested in something like this, strictly as a piece of gross out memorabilia. I could see that. That doesn't make it alright or worthwhile or the right venue or even prove that those people are not slightly crazy, but it's one demographic.
I hadn't realized necrophilic gaming enthusiasts was a niche market worth pursuing. (using polite sarcasm here)
I can see a situation where all parties involved decide that a mutilated zombie torso would be a neat little statue to include in the collector's edition, only for some clown in the marketing department going all "this mutilated zombie torso just aint sexy enough, and that's a problem because all I know about marketing is that sex sells".
As has been pointed out by many others, which part of this tit torso has identifying marks of "zombifcation."
The part that was there before clown sexification? Jesus people.
Compare the look of zombies in the game to this torso, note how they lack similarity . . .
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
When making this they saw it as a zombified Venus De Milo, and pictured it in the context of a museum. That could be great gag, next to a zombified David and Thinker, but no one else is coming in with that context. We see this sitting between Super Panty Asuka and a fleshlight opposite of the mannequin with a goat skull for a head and call the police he saw me post this ohgo
I can see a situation where all parties involved decide that a mutilated zombie torso would be a neat little statue to include in the collector's edition, only for some clown in the marketing department going all "this mutilated zombie torso just aint sexy enough, and that's a problem because all I know about marketing is that sex sells".
As has been pointed out by many others, which part of this tit torso has identifying marks of "zombifcation."
The part that was there before clown sexification? Jesus people.
Compare the look of zombies in the game to this torso, note how they lack similarity . . .
Incidentally, this image is a great example of how stupid the dead island setting is. Not the premise - an island resort overrun by zombies - but the way Dead Island paints it. The game wasn't anywhere near as thought provoking as the original trailer made everybody assume. Which is a big part of why I felt so let down by the game.
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
Could someone explain why anyone would want this?
I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted marketing stunt would be appreciated.
A couple of people have said that they know some horror movie enthusiasts who might be interested in something like this, strictly as a piece of gross out memorabilia. I could see that. That doesn't make it alright or worthwhile or the right venue or even prove that those people are not slightly crazy, but it's one demographic.
I hadn't realized necrophilic gaming enthusiasts was a niche market worth pursuing. (using polite sarcasm here)
There is a non-trivial market for people who are really into gore (mostly talking about non-sexually, but...yeah). Being a zombie game, I'm sure the publisher knows quite a bit about this market segment. I have absolutely no numbers to know how significant this market is numbers wise, but I'm sure that the group of people who are into gore and the group of people who like zombie games overlap quite a bit on a venn diagram somewhere.
I can see a situation where all parties involved decide that a mutilated zombie torso would be a neat little statue to include in the collector's edition, only for some clown in the marketing department going all "this mutilated zombie torso just aint sexy enough, and that's a problem because all I know about marketing is that sex sells".
As has been pointed out by many others, which part of this tit torso has identifying marks of "zombifcation."
The part that was there before clown sexification? Jesus people.
Compare the look of zombies in the game to this torso, note how they lack similarity . . .
When making this they saw it as a zombified Venus De Milo, and pictured it in the context of a museum. That could be great gag, next to a zombified David and Thinker, but no one else is coming in with that context. We see this sitting between Super Panty Asuka and a fleshlight opposite of the mannequin with a goat skull for a head and call the police he saw me post this ohgo
Actually, if that was their intent, that would have been a much better way to go about it. Do different zombified works of art for different regions.
However, contrary to the original press release's claims, I don't think they were really going for a parody of the venus de milo per say, although I do believe they took inspiration from it.
Could someone explain why anyone would want this?
I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted marketing stunt would be appreciated.
A couple of people have said that they know some horror movie enthusiasts who might be interested in something like this, strictly as a piece of gross out memorabilia. I could see that. That doesn't make it alright or worthwhile or the right venue or even prove that those people are not slightly crazy, but it's one demographic.
I hadn't realized necrophilic gaming enthusiasts was a niche market worth pursuing. (using polite sarcasm here)
A centerpiece of perfectly molded, unharmed pornstar tits is probably a coincidence then!
I can see a situation where all parties involved decide that a mutilated zombie torso would be a neat little statue to include in the collector's edition, only for some clown in the marketing department going all "this mutilated zombie torso just aint sexy enough, and that's a problem because all I know about marketing is that sex sells".
As has been pointed out by many others, which part of this tit torso has identifying marks of "zombifcation."
The part that was there before clown sexification? Jesus people.
Compare the look of zombies in the game to this torso, note how they lack similarity . . .
Is you for real?
Yup.
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Alright. Glad we sorted that out! I think you guys are wrong and you think I'm wrong. Welcome to the Internet!
You could not have missed the point more. You don't like it because it's ugly, we all agree. We don't like it because it's ugly AND mysoginistic; you give us a golf clap for effort.
No. I fucking get it. It is sexist because it has perfect boobs. Which is a lie because everyone knows that even if it didn't have the boobs you guys would still be up in arms about how it's a woman's corpse mutilated and not a man's corpse.
YAY LOGICAL FALLACY!
Please, go on telling me how offended I'd be if the statue was less offensive.
Would you be offended if it was a statue of a man's torso.
Y/N?
Please explain how this is relevant in a world where such a statue does not exist.
I asked a yes or no question. Please answer the question and then I'll answer yours.
The comparison is dumb because as I'm sure you're well aware, men don't have boobs. They do not wear what is seen in society as sex symbols on their chest. If you really cannot understand this, then I see no reason to engage any further.
A better comparison would be one made by Magic Pink earlier, a man wearing a very tight speedo, its rather large member seemingly trying very hard to escape. And all that is left of this man is that, the rest bloodily removed, only its throbbing phallus, barely contained, remaining.
And yes, I would also totally classify that as objectification.
But such a statue doesn't exist and never will, and that's a very important fact to keep in mind, because why does its female counterpart exist?
I have no idea why it exists.
I'm more disturbed that people in general can perceive a dessicated torso as sexualized to begin with. By it's very nature, it's a turn off which negates it's sexuality to me. When I look at that, yes I see boobs, but I don't see anything sexual about a torso. A woman is much more than a torso and boobs to me and that's all this is: A human torso statue.
On the same coin, if I saw a mutilated body of an attractive female in real life, I wouldn't think first "Damn, she's hot." I'd be too busy barfing.
Yes, it is gross and I can see why some people want to call it misogynistic, but I don't see it as inherently sexualized by it's very nature.
The bolded statement is something everyone here agrees with, and that's why we're saying it's a bad statue. It's a woman literally reduced to a pair of tits. It's one of the clearest cases of objectification of women I've seen. Is it sexy, as a whole? No. Does the statue use sexualization? Yes, absolutely. That's why it's designed as a female torso, and not a male torso. You can't ignore that. The tits are still perfect and unharmed. They are somehow the only part of that body that remained perfect and unharmed, and that wasn't by chance.
And yeah it's also totally gross, sure. But the objectification makes it even more gross.
Could someone explain why anyone would want this?
I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted marketing stunt would be appreciated.
A couple of people have said that they know some horror movie enthusiasts who might be interested in something like this, strictly as a piece of gross out memorabilia. I could see that. That doesn't make it alright or worthwhile or the right venue or even prove that those people are not slightly crazy, but it's one demographic.
I hadn't realized necrophilic gaming enthusiasts was a niche market worth pursuing. (using polite sarcasm here)
There is a non-trivial market for people who are really into gore (mostly talking about non-sexually, but...yeah). Being a zombie game, I'm sure the publisher knows quite a bit about this market segment. I have absolutely no numbers to know how significant this market is numbers wise, but I'm sure that the group of people who are into gore and the group of people who like zombie games overlap quite a bit on a venn diagram somewhere.
To back this up, there is actually an industry term for films pandering to this demographic: Gorn. A portmanteau of "gore" and "porn". The saw films fall under this umbrella term.
It actually is a pretty significant niche, to the point where it can support an entire sub-market. The problem with the niche is that, in addition to having no broad appeal, it actually has negative appeal to those who aren't endeared to it. People who aren't into gorn are typically disgusted by it.
For the film industry, that's not such a problem because virtually everybody consumes film. With regards to gaming, however, the numbers aren't quite there yet. I don't know if any game maker should be targeting a niche that actively repels those who aren't into it.
Hating women is THE CORE FOCUS of misogyny. Hating women THROUGH sexual objectification is misogynistic. You're right objectification and hatred of women are not mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean that the existence of one proves the existence of the other. And please, don't act like you think I ever "deserved it." I had to browbeat you into giving me your explanation when you'd rather just wave your hand and deem my take on things invalid. Well, arguments don't work that way and if you wanted to really put me in my place, you'd have more than just saying "I call that that's the way it is and you can't disagree!" on your side to back it up.
If I'm coming across as a jerk it's because the implication is that if I'm not offended by it then I'm part of the problem. By extension, you may as well call me a misogynist, which I absolutely AM NOT. For the record: I don't think the statue is misogynistic and I don't think it's really that offensive given the source material it's derived from. I DO think that most everyone else overreacted to it, including myself in the opposite direction. In the end I guess there really isn't much of an argument to be had, yet here we are, yelling at each other. I'm agreeing to disagree and moving on. We all win.
etc.
So that bold bit isn't really true. I'm sure your understanding of misogyny is what you say it is, but you're missing a lot of the picture if that's all (or primarily) what it means to you.
we've all heard the phrase 'treating a woman like a piece of meat', and what it means
the reason why this has got everyone so goshdarned upset is because they have literally condensed this attitude into a physical statue
it's ballsy in the most horrifying sense. we've finally reached the point where marketers think it's ok to say - tongue in cheek or not - "here's our game, and we're tossing in the mutilated torso of a woman because we all know that's how you think of them anyway"
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
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Eww, does that imply the PLAYER actually had to hack some woman's corpse up?
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
I think that with the wider variety of games in the industry and the introduction of the Wii U that now you can exercise while playing and your whole family will play games with you, that the "stereotypical" gamer is no longer viewed that way at all. This is a personal observation but games are a lot more socially acceptable now. One bad egg (Dead Island 2) is not going to ruin the tremendous upswing the industry has taken to uniting everyone in my opinion.
PSN: rlinkmanl
Dead Island is about an ongoing zombie outbreak, right? Does the skin turn all grey right away, could she just be a recent convert?
Just for argument's sake, if they wanted to really stick to their guns calling it a zombie.
She COULD be an Infected, which is a still living person with the virus but they, and I mean ALL of them, have head and limbs. And they tend to be a little greyer.
Yeah, good luck with that buddy.
The part that was there before clown sexification? Jesus people.
You are confused on the definition of misogyny, likely because you are relying on a understanding of the term that begins and ends with the dictionary. Misogyny is not simply people who say "I hate women and they shouldn't be allowed to vote and they're braindead," aka people that everyone on Earth thinks are stupid. If your characterization of a term in debate is to such absurdity that you're relying on that very absurdity to garner agreement, you need to reconsider your position in the argument.
Misogyny is a thing that people can participate in without really meaning to. They don't even need to be "bad people" that can be trivially dismissed in strawmen.
The game is not the problem, the marketing is.
I don't think anyone is actually attracted to zombies or dismembered torsos, so any explanation for why this isn't a purposefully crafted marketing stunt would be appreciated.
Also the bolded implies that they expect fans to dismember the female form so that tit's, arse and quim are all that's left.
Hey deep silver with your feministwhore puma history, go fuck yourselves.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
I can link you to a trailer for Jersey Shore, will that make you think everyone in New Jersey is a drunk asshat?
PSN: rlinkmanl
Agreed, they call it zombie bait on the box. It isn't a zombie torso, in any way, whatsoever.
I care more about the witch hunt aspect to it than I do about the stupid statue, to be honest. And to continue being honest, I wanted someone crusading just as hard in the opposite direction to discuss it with, but they were too busy acting like they had a mandate from god to cast aside any attacks on their opinion.
Hating women is THE CORE FOCUS of misogyny. Hating women THROUGH sexual objectification is misogynistic. You're right objectification and hatred of women are not mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean that the existence of one proves the existence of the other. And please, don't act like you think I ever "deserved it." I had to browbeat you into giving me your explanation when you'd rather just wave your hand and deem my take on things invalid. Well, arguments don't work that way and if you wanted to really put me in my place, you'd have more than just saying "I call that that's the way it is and you can't disagree!" on your side to back it up.
If I'm coming across as a jerk it's because the implication is that if I'm not offended by it then I'm part of the problem. By extension, you may as well call me a misogynist, which I absolutely AM NOT. For the record: I don't think the statue is misogynistic and I don't think it's really that offensive given the source material it's derived from. I DO think that most everyone else overreacted to it, including myself in the opposite direction. In the end I guess there really isn't much of an argument to be had, yet here we are, yelling at each other. I'm agreeing to disagree and moving on. We all win.
I'm sorry, I really wasn't trying to ignore you. Yes, I can admit that the literal reduction of a woman to a pair of tits CAN BE a bad thing. In the context of "hey, there's a game where you're on a beach fighting against zombies and you can cut their limbs off and shit; you can actually get a hacked up zombie torso as a collectible item!" I don't see it the same way you guys do but I can see your point, semantics aside. In the context of "this is not a good thing for the industry at this particular period in history" I can absolutely agree with you. Regarding the misogyny stuff, I gave my argument above, specifically:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/idolninja
I have no idea why it exists.
I'm more disturbed that people in general can perceive a dessicated torso as sexualized to begin with. By it's very nature, it's a turn off which negates it's sexuality to me. When I look at that, yes I see boobs, but I don't see anything sexual about a torso. A woman is much more than a torso and boobs to me and that's all this is: A human torso statue.
On the same coin, if I saw a mutilated body of an attractive female in real life, I wouldn't think first "Damn, she's hot." I'd be too busy barfing.
Yes, it is gross and I can see why some people want to call it misogynistic, but I don't see it as inherently sexualized by it's very nature.
You must be new to humanity! And to the internet!
Welcome, I guess?
The problem is that you're treating criticism of the statue and the process that led to its creation as a statement about the core ideals of the people involved in its creation. Something can be misogynistic simply by glorifying the mistreatment of women. It doesn't have to open a window into the creator's mind and reveal that, at his core, the creator hates women. And I think that offering a model of a (specifically sexualized) mutilated woman's corpse as an item of value (to encourage people to spend more money on the game) counts as glorifying the mistreatment of women.
A couple of people have said that they know some horror movie enthusiasts who might be interested in something like this, strictly as a piece of gross out memorabilia. I could see that. That doesn't make it alright or worthwhile or the right venue or even prove that those people are not slightly crazy, but it's one demographic.
Your original point was that Dead Island is supposedly an island of bad perception amongst a sea of change, citing the WiiU and some vague fitness game. The counter point is that the reverse perception isn't nearly as widespread as you claimed it was. I'd actually point out that the WiiU and games like Wii Fit are more the exception to the rule, the kind that you dismissed dead island as being.
To tie it back into your jersey shore analogy about perception - where is the counter-example in media? Assuming Jersey shore is the only depiction of new jersey on tv (I dunno, I don't watch it at all) then I'd say you'd actually be proving his point. Perception is reality.
Look, I don't know how to explain the problem to you any clearer.
The video game industry already has an image problem.
The video game industry already has an issue of being a boys club both by people working in the industry, and by the gamers themselves.
This doesn't help either of those things, and is something that can be grabbed onto by those outside of the industry as a prime example of what's wrong with gaming.
If you don't understand how this is an issue, I'd suggest you look up the history of rock and roll, the history of comic books, and the history of movies and get some perspective on how this stuff works.
Also what TSR said.
I just now realized the apology was implying that was supposed to be a zombie torso (which makes it kind of worse, really...)
The infected in Dead Island also had little sores/cuts all over them. That statue is clearly not a zombie in anyway... I'm trying to be a little sympathetic to the devs/marketing team in that they were trying to do a thing with this statue but did it extremely poorly...
Half-assed BS excuses like that though...
Just throw it out? Like, of all the things wrong with it, "part of a more sane package deal" isn't in the top 10, let alone the worst part.
I hadn't realized necrophilic gaming enthusiasts was a niche market worth pursuing. (using polite sarcasm here)
Compare the look of zombies in the game to this torso, note how they lack similarity . . .
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Incidentally, this image is a great example of how stupid the dead island setting is. Not the premise - an island resort overrun by zombies - but the way Dead Island paints it. The game wasn't anywhere near as thought provoking as the original trailer made everybody assume. Which is a big part of why I felt so let down by the game.
There is a non-trivial market for people who are really into gore (mostly talking about non-sexually, but...yeah). Being a zombie game, I'm sure the publisher knows quite a bit about this market segment. I have absolutely no numbers to know how significant this market is numbers wise, but I'm sure that the group of people who are into gore and the group of people who like zombie games overlap quite a bit on a venn diagram somewhere.
It could happen.
Is you for real?
Actually, if that was their intent, that would have been a much better way to go about it. Do different zombified works of art for different regions.
However, contrary to the original press release's claims, I don't think they were really going for a parody of the venus de milo per say, although I do believe they took inspiration from it.
A centerpiece of perfectly molded, unharmed pornstar tits is probably a coincidence then!
Yup.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
The bolded statement is something everyone here agrees with, and that's why we're saying it's a bad statue. It's a woman literally reduced to a pair of tits. It's one of the clearest cases of objectification of women I've seen. Is it sexy, as a whole? No. Does the statue use sexualization? Yes, absolutely. That's why it's designed as a female torso, and not a male torso. You can't ignore that. The tits are still perfect and unharmed. They are somehow the only part of that body that remained perfect and unharmed, and that wasn't by chance.
And yeah it's also totally gross, sure. But the objectification makes it even more gross.
To back this up, there is actually an industry term for films pandering to this demographic: Gorn. A portmanteau of "gore" and "porn". The saw films fall under this umbrella term.
It actually is a pretty significant niche, to the point where it can support an entire sub-market. The problem with the niche is that, in addition to having no broad appeal, it actually has negative appeal to those who aren't endeared to it. People who aren't into gorn are typically disgusted by it.
For the film industry, that's not such a problem because virtually everybody consumes film. With regards to gaming, however, the numbers aren't quite there yet. I don't know if any game maker should be targeting a niche that actively repels those who aren't into it.
So that bold bit isn't really true. I'm sure your understanding of misogyny is what you say it is, but you're missing a lot of the picture if that's all (or primarily) what it means to you.
the reason why this has got everyone so goshdarned upset is because they have literally condensed this attitude into a physical statue
it's ballsy in the most horrifying sense. we've finally reached the point where marketers think it's ok to say - tongue in cheek or not - "here's our game, and we're tossing in the mutilated torso of a woman because we all know that's how you think of them anyway"
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy