Becomes lol Booker is Comstock, we decided to make it you who was the real villain, your now dead by your daughter(s) hand(s) and everything you did is now chronologically meaningless, it's the multiverse's fault, Columbia was just a cool setting to tell a story that had nothing to do with Columbia and all it's jingoism and class struggle and the like ultimately, etc.
I have to wonder why, and what thought process went into taking all the great ideas and themes that went into this game and it's premise, and all the work and love and attention that went into Columbia as a city, and then have it all just become entirely meaningless because TIME PHYSICS YOU ARE YOUR OWN ENEMY THIS IS THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING.
[/spoiler]
ENDING SPOILER
Except that Evil Elizabeth shows you quite clearly why it's not meaningless. You are sparing Elizabeth a fate where she is nothing but Comstock's tool after death, fulfilling his prophecies, something she clearly didn't want. In fact, parallels can be drawn between Booker and Evil Elizabeth. Both are responsible for heinous acts and know they can't and shouldn't be forgiven. The only thing they can do is prevent these horrible things from happening in the first place. And THAT is the point.
Comstock took his baptism as forgiveness and subsequently Wounded Knee was not some act of evil on his part. He had taken the easy way out, accepted God's "forgiveness" and let it forever erase his conscience. And eventually he accepted and embraced every bad part of him that led to his actions at Wounded Knee. And that is where the racism and jingoism ties in. Comstock is Booker if he blindly embraced his worst attributes.
Ignoring everything that happened during the game because the timeline was erased is a frankly shallow way to look at it. You are focusing on arguably the least important part of the plot.
While it certainly added elements of challenge when facing larger/tougher groups, I do agree with the earlier assessment that due to tonics, weapons and upgrades on both, it was easy for grunts to become pushovers, while ... err, lieutenants and captains remained pretty tough, at least on Normal.
With the day to day fighters, it was a very "I'm not trapped here with you, you're trapped here with me and my flock of murderous crows!.
But throw someone wearing armour in the mix, and now I need to make sure they get stunned and gunned down.
Throw a couple Patriots or a Handyman and I spent a lot of time fleeing for my god damned life, shocking/distracting them and feeling like I was just plinking away at their healthbar.
Not that I mind a challenge, but I'll admit, at least on Normal, I usually expect to be a nigh-unstoppable force of nature by game's end, and I never really felt that way here. In slightly groggy examination, I think it's the movement to a partial shield, partial health system, with no first aid kit stockpile. By end of Bioshock 1 and 2, with enough upgrades you were generally pretty damned hard to kill. Here it felt like I was struggling to stay alive.
Of note though; I don't think I used the skylines nearly enough for some combat encounters (getting my ass kicked a few times made me a bit cover hungry, whereas the speed and killing power certain items provided might've made the difference), and I definitely ended up with a small 2 or 3 set of tonics that were my go-to's, thus overlooking in particular the later ones, as those were un-upgraded, which on even more examination might've tied into how I felt with the weapons; the ones I'd dropped a couple grand on upgrading were my usual gear, and the random shit I hadn't became my "okay, out of ammo for 'real weapons', sure I guess I'll use one of these until I scrounge up some ammo or bite the bullet and stock up at a vending machine" gear.
There were times I wanted to be a bit more aggressive, but outside of the 'random guys with paper mache for armour', I found going toe to toe with the tougher foes to be a significantly higher risk and potential drain on resources (health, salt and ammo).
Not really a complaint, even if it comes across that way, and do note I enjoyed every second of my playthrough, just trying to verbalize things I experienced, and sort of pondering aloud as I read other's thoughts and styles how I might make things different and even better on my next runthrough, whenever that might be.
I think I might try Easy next, just to really get into a low pressure chance where I can feel more free to experiment and not sweat doing things even less efficiently, before I try hard.
Probably staying the hell away from 1999. Props to those who go for it / have done it, but I'm not sure that level of difficulty is for me.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
In Shantytown / Finkland, I am stuck, because of what I can only assume is a glitch. See below as it's a spoiler related glitch even! YAY
Twice now I've had issues opening the Tears to get from one reality to another. The first time, hanging around poor Lin's corpse, I couldn't get it to trigger save by kinda dancing around it like an idiot. The second time, in the bottom of the Shantytown police impound, where Lin's gear is, I can't get the trigger to show up AT ALL. The black and white area appears, but no matter how hard I mash the E button I can't get it to actually respond. I've tried moving around the area to see if I can get it to show up, and just moving around clicking E, but unlike with Lin's corpse where the trigger was just stupidly small, the trigger doesn't seem to BE there.
Help? Anyone else encountered this problem? I can't progress.
For the record, in both situations I looked at the Tear, and went "Oh, I forgot A Thing." First time it was grabbing the Cipher, second time it was getting the keys to the police chest. Both times were rewarding for the infusion thingies, but I'm worried that leaving and coming back broke the game's script somehow??? I really hope to god I haven't fritz'd the damn thing because I really want to progress, dammit
SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
More on the ending:
Like Columbia's propaganda portrays the city, its way of life and social structure as ideal and born on a lot of intrinsic values that they believe exist. Manifest Destiny and exceptionalism, etc. But as the game goes on we enter tears. We find that Columbia's superiority isn't really that clear. That some changes to the timeline can cause things to go very differently. Eventually we find that Columbia's success and destiny is very fragile due to the nature of our universe.
Also I just thought about how the second time you enter the tear Booker ends up becoming a hero of the Vox. It's kind of funny how utterly manipulated his timeline is.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
Some of their dialogue.
The way their relationship evolves over time and becomes more intimate prior to Booker becoming aware of her as his daughter.
The bit with the corset in Comstock House after the tornado.
What dialogue specifically?
People can be intimately close without any sexual tension.
Her corset was half off and that's not something she could have fixed herself.
The time and physics of the ending on it's own, barring a few mental gymnastics, is fine, even good. But, when you contrast it with the rest of the game on the whole, and it's setting and themes, it just doesn't quite fit right. Themes like racism and class struggle are more grounded in lived, real human experience and are known as consistent, measurable historical and social forces.
Time and the nature of reality is just as interesting if not more so but is much more abstract, subjective to a degree, open to interpretation, very complex and ultimately means more to what we might call God then it would mean to us, at least in terms of direct experience.
We don't experience time like it is presented here, and it leaves a strange taste in the mouth.
I think you are quite literally not reading enough into the themes and setting of the game, and would do well to read this from the SE++ thread:
Whole game spoilers re: religion because I too would like to masturbate about the themes in the ending
a lot of people were talking about how even though comstock is ostensibly a fundamentalist Christian, there are very few if any references to Christ.
I think this is a very deliberate choice because in many ways Comstock is NOT a Christian. He shows no desire to be loving, forgiving, compassionate, or generous. He was so racked with guilt over what happened at wounded knee that he turned to god for forgiveness. Christianity is a religion that teaches that no one is so wretched that they cannot be saved by God's grace, but a core component of being a Christian is devoting your life toward being an ultimately loving and compassionate person, a task so difficult as to be impossible, but the beauty is in the attempt.
Comstock makes no such attempt. Instead of admitting that he is a sinner, a fundamental part of converting to Christianity, he rationalizes all of the atrocities he's committed as the will of god, and goes on to commit even further atrocities in god's name. I don't remember him ever quoting Scripture from the New Testament, he sticks solely to the fire and brimstone stuff of the Old Testament. He has hijacked the imagery from Christianity and cherry-picked phrases from the bible to suit his own ends. He even goes so far as to create idolatry of founding fathers, create a goddess like personification of Columbia, and refer to his daughter with the same term used to refer to the child of God, violating one of the Ten Commandments. He considers himself more Christian than Christ in the same way that he considers himself more American than America.
And the thing is, Comstock isn't an unfamiliar character. American politics are filled with people who have twisted a religion based on love to justify hatred. He's a 1912 version of 2013's worst conservatives.
Christianity is supposed to be a religion of love, and of sacrifice. You deny all of the fleeting, minuscule pleasures of sin, and devote your life to charity and goodwill. Converting is being born again, with a new lease on life, free from the sins that you've eschewed, free to be the good person that you've always been able to be.
In the end, Booker accepts his sins. He doesn't run from them or justify them as he has in alternate realities. He admits that he is a sinner, that his soul is so tainted with evil that he deserves complete oblivion.
And in exchange for that one beautiful moment of absolute humility, he's born again. He wakes up in the detective office with Anna in her crib. He's free to be the good person he's always been able to be. He's wiped away the debt.
The game begins and ends with literal baptisms because the entire game is a metaphorical baptism.
As some one who considers himself a Christian who constantly feels more and more angry with the way politicians in America try to exploit the religion to their own ends I found this component of the story to be incredibly powerful. Like when was the last time you saw a work with a pro-Christian message that wasn't either condescending or just dumb.
Definitely agree.
In a way, Booker makes the correct choice at the point of baptism. He isn't ready to ask for forgiveness, he's looking for a way out. And when he runs from that, he takes responsibility for his actions and who he is in a way Comstock doesn't. He lives with his sins. And in a way, Columbia is a perfect place for him to realize he does need to ask for forgiveness. It represents everything he was up until the point of baptism. He is quite frankly fighting against who he was.
Some people are saying that the themes of the game seem disconnected, that Columbia as a setting wasn't important to the ending, but I think the whole thing is brilliantly written and tied up. Booker's past sins are completely represented in Columbia. His fight through Columbia is his come to terms with his past. It shows him exactly who he was, who he could have been without that guilt, and why exactly he shouldn't be. When he realizes Elizabeth is Anna, he starts to accept his actions, to stop rationalizing them. And when the Elizabeths drown him, he doesn't fight back. He accepts his fate.
The game is about racism, nationalism, faith and forgiveness, and all of these themes aren't tied to Columbia, they're tied to Booker. Columbia is only a reflection of him.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
In Shantytown / Finkland, I am stuck, because of what I can only assume is a glitch. See below as it's a spoiler related glitch even! YAY
Twice now I've had issues opening the Tears to get from one reality to another. The first time, hanging around poor Lin's corpse, I couldn't get it to trigger save by kinda dancing around it like an idiot. The second time, in the bottom of the Shantytown police impound, where Lin's gear is, I can't get the trigger to show up AT ALL. The black and white area appears, but no matter how hard I mash the E button I can't get it to actually respond. I've tried moving around the area to see if I can get it to show up, and just moving around clicking E, but unlike with Lin's corpse where the trigger was just stupidly small, the trigger doesn't seem to BE there.
Help? Anyone else encountered this problem? I can't progress.
For the record, in both situations I looked at the Tear, and went "Oh, I forgot A Thing." First time it was grabbing the Cipher, second time it was getting the keys to the police chest. Both times were rewarding for the infusion thingies, but I'm worried that leaving and coming back broke the game's script somehow??? I really hope to god I haven't fritz'd the damn thing because I really want to progress, dammit
To clarify: The prompt to open the thingy to let me progress isn't coming up at all. It sort of came up in the first situation for about a split second if I wiggled back and forth constantly, but it's not appearing AT ALL in the second case.
I don't know what to do. I want to beat this game so bad and it's killing me to be stuck.
In Shantytown / Finkland, I am stuck, because of what I can only assume is a glitch. See below as it's a spoiler related glitch even! YAY
Twice now I've had issues opening the Tears to get from one reality to another. The first time, hanging around poor Lin's corpse, I couldn't get it to trigger save by kinda dancing around it like an idiot. The second time, in the bottom of the Shantytown police impound, where Lin's gear is, I can't get the trigger to show up AT ALL. The black and white area appears, but no matter how hard I mash the E button I can't get it to actually respond. I've tried moving around the area to see if I can get it to show up, and just moving around clicking E, but unlike with Lin's corpse where the trigger was just stupidly small, the trigger doesn't seem to BE there.
Help? Anyone else encountered this problem? I can't progress.
For the record, in both situations I looked at the Tear, and went "Oh, I forgot A Thing." First time it was grabbing the Cipher, second time it was getting the keys to the police chest. Both times were rewarding for the infusion thingies, but I'm worried that leaving and coming back broke the game's script somehow??? I really hope to god I haven't fritz'd the damn thing because I really want to progress, dammit
Did you rebind your key? It's F, if you haven't.
Wait, F is what opens the thing!? I thought it was the Use key, which is E? So I hit the melee button? That's so counter intuitive, considering you use E to open the combat ones and to open doors...
In Shantytown / Finkland, I am stuck, because of what I can only assume is a glitch. See below as it's a spoiler related glitch even! YAY
Twice now I've had issues opening the Tears to get from one reality to another. The first time, hanging around poor Lin's corpse, I couldn't get it to trigger save by kinda dancing around it like an idiot. The second time, in the bottom of the Shantytown police impound, where Lin's gear is, I can't get the trigger to show up AT ALL. The black and white area appears, but no matter how hard I mash the E button I can't get it to actually respond. I've tried moving around the area to see if I can get it to show up, and just moving around clicking E, but unlike with Lin's corpse where the trigger was just stupidly small, the trigger doesn't seem to BE there.
Help? Anyone else encountered this problem? I can't progress.
For the record, in both situations I looked at the Tear, and went "Oh, I forgot A Thing." First time it was grabbing the Cipher, second time it was getting the keys to the police chest. Both times were rewarding for the infusion thingies, but I'm worried that leaving and coming back broke the game's script somehow??? I really hope to god I haven't fritz'd the damn thing because I really want to progress, dammit
Did you rebind your key? It's F, if you haven't.
Wait, F is what opens the thing!? I thought it was the Use key, which is E? So I hit the melee button? That's so counter intuitive, considering you use E to open the combat ones and to open doors...
Did you rebind your keys? Use is F by default, the melee button is V or something weird, by default.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure then. Sometimes I have to get really really close before it works but I've not had this problem.
In Shantytown / Finkland, I am stuck, because of what I can only assume is a glitch. See below as it's a spoiler related glitch even! YAY
Twice now I've had issues opening the Tears to get from one reality to another. The first time, hanging around poor Lin's corpse, I couldn't get it to trigger save by kinda dancing around it like an idiot. The second time, in the bottom of the Shantytown police impound, where Lin's gear is, I can't get the trigger to show up AT ALL. The black and white area appears, but no matter how hard I mash the E button I can't get it to actually respond. I've tried moving around the area to see if I can get it to show up, and just moving around clicking E, but unlike with Lin's corpse where the trigger was just stupidly small, the trigger doesn't seem to BE there.
Help? Anyone else encountered this problem? I can't progress.
For the record, in both situations I looked at the Tear, and went "Oh, I forgot A Thing." First time it was grabbing the Cipher, second time it was getting the keys to the police chest. Both times were rewarding for the infusion thingies, but I'm worried that leaving and coming back broke the game's script somehow??? I really hope to god I haven't fritz'd the damn thing because I really want to progress, dammit
Did you rebind your key? It's F, if you haven't.
Wait, F is what opens the thing!? I thought it was the Use key, which is E? So I hit the melee button? That's so counter intuitive, considering you use E to open the combat ones and to open doors...
Did you rebind your keys? Use is F by default, the melee button is V or something weird, by default.
SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
Maybe try temporarily changing the keys again?
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
edited March 2013
More gushing about the ending:
I think it was a very good idea to use Rapture like that. If they had tried to illustrate the multiverse concept with just Infinite's lighthouse I think it wouldn't have been as jaw dropping. The fact that this multiverse thing transcends game titles and in some way the two games are linked really helped.
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
I sincerely doubt it's my key bindings, they work fine for everything else; also, they were like that when I stared (and like that for Bioshock 1)
... though my brother changed Melee from V to F, but again, I don't think it's the key bindings, I think the actual event trigger is glitched.
Like I said, I'll try reloading tomorrow, but I may be stuck on this
...
Unless... I could get my brother to play through the level, fritz our save game again, and then load from checkpoint to the appropriate location.
Now you're thinking with quantum mechanics!
*e* The reason I think it's not the key bindings is that the prompt to open the thing and move to the next area literally doesn't come up at all. I don't get a "MOVE ON / ARE YOU SURE????" prompt.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
Some of their dialogue.
The way their relationship evolves over time and becomes more intimate prior to Booker becoming aware of her as his daughter.
The bit with the corset in Comstock House after the tornado.
What dialogue specifically?
People can be intimately close without any sexual tension.
Her corset was half off and that's not something she could have fixed herself.
I didn't get a lot of sexual tension there either, and I assumed there would be romance in the game since...well, you're a hero rescuing a damsel from a tower guarded by a winged monster. Their interactions didn't have any romanticism about them, she's a naive girl and you're the grizzled vet just doing a job. None of your responses in battleship bay had any warmth to them, even though all of hers were full of wonder and pleasantness.
And the scene with the corset was after you saw Old regretful Elizabeth and a burning New York and after you ripped a giant needle from her spinal column. The dialogue there isn't a warm happy reunion, it's a reunion. Hell, she threatens you with a goddamn tornado for even implying you might try to stop her.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I sincerely doubt it's my key bindings, they work fine for everything else; also, they were like that when I stared (and like that for Bioshock 1)
... though my brother changed Melee from V to F, but again, I don't think it's the key bindings, I think the actual event trigger is glitched.
Like I said, I'll try reloading tomorrow, but I may be stuck on this
...
Unless... I could get my brother to play through the level, fritz our save game again, and then load from checkpoint to the appropriate location.
Now you're thinking with quantum mechanics!
*e* The reason I think it's not the key bindings is that the prompt to open the thing and move to the next area literally doesn't come up at all. I don't get a "MOVE ON / ARE YOU SURE????" prompt.
Yeah seems like a reload might be necessary then unfortunately.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Becomes lol Booker is Comstock, we decided to make it you who was the real villain, your now dead by your daughter(s) hand(s) and everything you did is now chronologically meaningless, it's the multiverse's fault, Columbia was just a cool setting to tell a story that had nothing to do with Columbia and all it's jingoism and class struggle and the like ultimately, etc.
I have to wonder why, and what thought process went into taking all the great ideas and themes that went into this game and it's premise, and all the work and love and attention that went into Columbia as a city, and then have it all just become entirely meaningless because TIME PHYSICS YOU ARE YOUR OWN ENEMY THIS IS THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING.
[/spoiler]
ENDING SPOILER
Except that Evil Elizabeth shows you quite clearly why it's not meaningless. You are sparing Elizabeth a fate where she is nothing but Comstock's tool after death, fulfilling his prophecies, something she clearly didn't want. In fact, parallels can be drawn between Booker and Evil Elizabeth. Both are responsible for heinous acts and know they can't and shouldn't be forgiven. The only thing they can do is prevent these horrible things from happening in the first place. And THAT is the point.
Comstock took his baptism as forgiveness and subsequently Wounded Knee was not some act of evil on his part. He had taken the easy way out, accepted God's "forgiveness" and let it forever erase his conscience. And eventually he accepted and embraced every bad part of him that led to his actions at Wounded Knee. And that is where the racism and jingoism ties in. Comstock is Booker if he blindly embraced his worst attributes.
Ignoring everything that happened during the game because the timeline was erased is a frankly shallow way to look at it. You are focusing on arguably the least important part of the plot.
I'm going to bed in a moment, but I will say in my half awake state that, shallow as it may seem, I think that the first part of the ending, the trip to Rapture and appeal to physics and such is great. And your explanation is certainly a valid way of interpreting it.
I guess maybe my main issue with it was how it was presented; constantly opening doors and looping times and not explaining the chronology as accurately as is needed to make this work well as a way of tying these themes and truthes together. And the argument for why Booker has to die for sure at this moment when the time comes and how it is presented at the very end.
How does that work within this whole mutliverse, all of this has happened before framework? If your actions are not invalidated, then at the very least you should still exist somewhere and somehow, even with your "death" in that pool and so should Elizabeth. The fact that all the other copies of Elizabeth, possibly including the "main" Elizabeth, fade away after killing Booker on the for sure assumption he will become Comstock no matter what he does, that suggests to me that the multiverse thing thus described in the game is true, and thus everything that happened no longer happened and thus nothing happened ever. It's tied to existence.
where they were auctioning off jobs to the lowest bidder
kind of made my stomach churn.
Was that really
the lowest bidder? I thought they were already employees, and were bidding on how FAST they could do the job. I am almost certain I heard them mention minutes.
I took it as how many minutes of pay they were willing to accept to do the job. Employees get paid on how much time they work. How fast also works, but I think it comes out to the same thing. "I'll do the job for this many minutes of pay!"
Black_Heart on
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
where they were auctioning off jobs to the lowest bidder
kind of made my stomach churn.
Was that really
the lowest bidder? I thought they were already employees, and were bidding on how FAST they could do the job. I am almost certain I heard them mention minutes.
I took it as how many minutes of pay they were willing to accept to do the job. Employees get paid on how much time they work. How fast also works, but I think it comes out to the same thing. "I'll do the job for this many minutes of pay!"
Whoever could do it the fastest would get the job, and therefore get paid for it, but towards the end it was pretty clear how unlikely they'd be able to complete it in such a short amount of time. They're so desperate for work that they'll do anything to get it.
Sarksus on
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
The time and physics of the ending on it's own, barring a few mental gymnastics, is fine, even good. But, when you contrast it with the rest of the game on the whole, and it's setting and themes, it just doesn't quite fit right. Themes like racism and class struggle are more grounded in lived, real human experience and are known as consistent, measurable historical and social forces.
Time and the nature of reality is just as interesting if not more so but is much more abstract, subjective to a degree, open to interpretation, very complex and ultimately means more to what we might call God then it would mean to us, at least in terms of direct experience.
We don't experience time like it is presented here, and it leaves a strange taste in the mouth.
I think you are quite literally not reading enough into the themes and setting of the game, and would do well to read this from the SE++ thread:
Whole game spoilers re: religion because I too would like to masturbate about the themes in the ending
a lot of people were talking about how even though comstock is ostensibly a fundamentalist Christian, there are very few if any references to Christ.
I think this is a very deliberate choice because in many ways Comstock is NOT a Christian. He shows no desire to be loving, forgiving, compassionate, or generous. He was so racked with guilt over what happened at wounded knee that he turned to god for forgiveness. Christianity is a religion that teaches that no one is so wretched that they cannot be saved by God's grace, but a core component of being a Christian is devoting your life toward being an ultimately loving and compassionate person, a task so difficult as to be impossible, but the beauty is in the attempt.
Comstock makes no such attempt. Instead of admitting that he is a sinner, a fundamental part of converting to Christianity, he rationalizes all of the atrocities he's committed as the will of god, and goes on to commit even further atrocities in god's name. I don't remember him ever quoting Scripture from the New Testament, he sticks solely to the fire and brimstone stuff of the Old Testament. He has hijacked the imagery from Christianity and cherry-picked phrases from the bible to suit his own ends. He even goes so far as to create idolatry of founding fathers, create a goddess like personification of Columbia, and refer to his daughter with the same term used to refer to the child of God, violating one of the Ten Commandments. He considers himself more Christian than Christ in the same way that he considers himself more American than America.
And the thing is, Comstock isn't an unfamiliar character. American politics are filled with people who have twisted a religion based on love to justify hatred. He's a 1912 version of 2013's worst conservatives.
Christianity is supposed to be a religion of love, and of sacrifice. You deny all of the fleeting, minuscule pleasures of sin, and devote your life to charity and goodwill. Converting is being born again, with a new lease on life, free from the sins that you've eschewed, free to be the good person that you've always been able to be.
In the end, Booker accepts his sins. He doesn't run from them or justify them as he has in alternate realities. He admits that he is a sinner, that his soul is so tainted with evil that he deserves complete oblivion.
And in exchange for that one beautiful moment of absolute humility, he's born again. He wakes up in the detective office with Anna in her crib. He's free to be the good person he's always been able to be. He's wiped away the debt.
The game begins and ends with literal baptisms because the entire game is a metaphorical baptism.
As some one who considers himself a Christian who constantly feels more and more angry with the way politicians in America try to exploit the religion to their own ends I found this component of the story to be incredibly powerful. Like when was the last time you saw a work with a pro-Christian message that wasn't either condescending or just dumb.
Definitely agree.
In a way, Booker makes the correct choice at the point of baptism. He isn't ready to ask for forgiveness, he's looking for a way out. And when he runs from that, he takes responsibility for his actions and who he is in a way Comstock doesn't. He lives with his sins. And in a way, Columbia is a perfect place for him to realize he does need to ask for forgiveness. It represents everything he was up until the point of baptism. He is quite frankly fighting against who he was.
Some people are saying that the themes of the game seem disconnected, that Columbia as a setting wasn't important to the ending, but I think the whole thing is brilliantly written and tied up. Booker's past sins are completely represented in Columbia. His fight through Columbia is his come to terms with his past. It shows him exactly who he was, who he could have been without that guilt, and why exactly he shouldn't be. When he realizes Elizabeth is Anna, he starts to accept his actions, to stop rationalizing them. And when the Elizabeths drown him, he doesn't fight back. He accepts his fate.
The game is about racism, nationalism, faith and forgiveness, and all of these themes aren't tied to Columbia, they're tied to Booker. Columbia is only a reflection of him.
Alright, I'll admit that was the entirety of the game and it's story and purpose summed up well and I agree. If this was Levine's intent, and I have no reason to believe it is not because it makes complete sense and reflects his allusions from his Giant Bomb interview as to what he wanted the game to be, then he did do a good job with the game in these regards.
I still think they could have presented that summation in the latter half of the ending better though.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
I think I need to sleep on this thing a bit, because something about the last few moments of the ending just don't add up presentation wise for me. There's still a nagging feeling of thematic disconnect.
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
God I want a new Bioshock but I'm gonna miss Elizabeth ;( she was a critical part of this game's success
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
I am not certain where they can really go now. Space?
It may be best to just keep the duality of the games. One above and one below.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
I am not certain where they can really go now. Space?
It may be best to just keep the duality of the games. One above and one below.
Ooooh. Ooooh. A city on the Moon. Nailed it.
Also, maybe it is extreme Communism and people lose their sense of individuality.
Anyone fallen back on the pistol around mid-game and found it to be still a useful weapon? The first upgrade for reserve capacity I've come across is for the good ol' broomhandle Mauser, and I'm tempted, since it seems like a very versatile choice. But if it's going to gently tickle the enemies Columbia has in store instead of putting them down, I'll put it out of my mind right now.
Missing the wrench. The existing melee option with the right gear isn't bad, but I felt more in control with the wrench in Bioshock, and it worked for crowd control because it didn't make your perspective all crazy like lunging at someone with the melee weapon in this game.
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"Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are." - Bertolt Brecht
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ENDING SPOILER
Comstock took his baptism as forgiveness and subsequently Wounded Knee was not some act of evil on his part. He had taken the easy way out, accepted God's "forgiveness" and let it forever erase his conscience. And eventually he accepted and embraced every bad part of him that led to his actions at Wounded Knee. And that is where the racism and jingoism ties in. Comstock is Booker if he blindly embraced his worst attributes.
Ignoring everything that happened during the game because the timeline was erased is a frankly shallow way to look at it. You are focusing on arguably the least important part of the plot.
PSN ID : HBoxx
With the day to day fighters, it was a very "I'm not trapped here with you, you're trapped here with me and my flock of murderous crows!.
But throw someone wearing armour in the mix, and now I need to make sure they get stunned and gunned down.
Throw a couple Patriots or a Handyman and I spent a lot of time fleeing for my god damned life, shocking/distracting them and feeling like I was just plinking away at their healthbar.
Not that I mind a challenge, but I'll admit, at least on Normal, I usually expect to be a nigh-unstoppable force of nature by game's end, and I never really felt that way here. In slightly groggy examination, I think it's the movement to a partial shield, partial health system, with no first aid kit stockpile. By end of Bioshock 1 and 2, with enough upgrades you were generally pretty damned hard to kill. Here it felt like I was struggling to stay alive.
Of note though; I don't think I used the skylines nearly enough for some combat encounters (getting my ass kicked a few times made me a bit cover hungry, whereas the speed and killing power certain items provided might've made the difference), and I definitely ended up with a small 2 or 3 set of tonics that were my go-to's, thus overlooking in particular the later ones, as those were un-upgraded, which on even more examination might've tied into how I felt with the weapons; the ones I'd dropped a couple grand on upgrading were my usual gear, and the random shit I hadn't became my "okay, out of ammo for 'real weapons', sure I guess I'll use one of these until I scrounge up some ammo or bite the bullet and stock up at a vending machine" gear.
There were times I wanted to be a bit more aggressive, but outside of the 'random guys with paper mache for armour', I found going toe to toe with the tougher foes to be a significantly higher risk and potential drain on resources (health, salt and ammo).
Not really a complaint, even if it comes across that way, and do note I enjoyed every second of my playthrough, just trying to verbalize things I experienced, and sort of pondering aloud as I read other's thoughts and styles how I might make things different and even better on my next runthrough, whenever that might be.
I think I might try Easy next, just to really get into a low pressure chance where I can feel more free to experiment and not sweat doing things even less efficiently, before I try hard.
Probably staying the hell away from 1999. Props to those who go for it / have done it, but I'm not sure that level of difficulty is for me.
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
PSN ID : HBoxx
I've encountered a problem?
In Shantytown / Finkland, I am stuck, because of what I can only assume is a glitch. See below as it's a spoiler related glitch even! YAY
Help? Anyone else encountered this problem? I can't progress.
For the record, in both situations I looked at the Tear, and went "Oh, I forgot A Thing." First time it was grabbing the Cipher, second time it was getting the keys to the police chest. Both times were rewarding for the infusion thingies, but I'm worried that leaving and coming back broke the game's script somehow??? I really hope to god I haven't fritz'd the damn thing because I really want to progress, dammit
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Also I just thought about how the second time you enter the tear Booker ends up becoming a hero of the Vox. It's kind of funny how utterly manipulated his timeline is.
People can be intimately close without any sexual tension.
Her corset was half off and that's not something she could have fixed herself.
PSN ID : HBoxx
I think you are quite literally not reading enough into the themes and setting of the game, and would do well to read this from the SE++ thread:
I actually am on this opinion.
Did you rebind your key? It's F, if you haven't.
I don't know what to do. I want to beat this game so bad and it's killing me to be stuck.
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Wait, F is what opens the thing!? I thought it was the Use key, which is E? So I hit the melee button? That's so counter intuitive, considering you use E to open the combat ones and to open doors...
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
E: Use/open dealie/tell Elizabeth to do a thing
F: MELEE
V/mouse scroll: switch weapon
Q: switch vigor
WASD: move yo butt
C: crouch
Space: JUMP / SKYLINE
Point is: I'm hitting the "Use" button, and nothing is happening around this thing I'm discussing
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Did you rebind your keys? Use is F by default, the melee button is V or something weird, by default.
Yeah, they've been rebound (see above post)
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Ugh, this sucks quite a lot. I might just reload the level from the beginning tomorrow and see if that helps
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Edit: God I just really loved this game.
This did nail the ending this time though.
I sincerely doubt it's my key bindings, they work fine for everything else; also, they were like that when I stared (and like that for Bioshock 1)
... though my brother changed Melee from V to F, but again, I don't think it's the key bindings, I think the actual event trigger is glitched.
Like I said, I'll try reloading tomorrow, but I may be stuck on this
...
Unless... I could get my brother to play through the level, fritz our save game again, and then load from checkpoint to the appropriate location.
Now you're thinking with quantum mechanics!
*e* The reason I think it's not the key bindings is that the prompt to open the thing and move to the next area literally doesn't come up at all. I don't get a "MOVE ON / ARE YOU SURE????" prompt.
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
And the scene with the corset was after you saw Old regretful Elizabeth and a burning New York and after you ripped a giant needle from her spinal column. The dialogue there isn't a warm happy reunion, it's a reunion. Hell, she threatens you with a goddamn tornado for even implying you might try to stop her.
Yeah seems like a reload might be necessary then unfortunately.
I guess maybe my main issue with it was how it was presented; constantly opening doors and looping times and not explaining the chronology as accurately as is needed to make this work well as a way of tying these themes and truthes together. And the argument for why Booker has to die for sure at this moment when the time comes and how it is presented at the very end.
How does that work within this whole mutliverse, all of this has happened before framework? If your actions are not invalidated, then at the very least you should still exist somewhere and somehow, even with your "death" in that pool and so should Elizabeth. The fact that all the other copies of Elizabeth, possibly including the "main" Elizabeth, fade away after killing Booker on the for sure assumption he will become Comstock no matter what he does, that suggests to me that the multiverse thing thus described in the game is true, and thus everything that happened no longer happened and thus nothing happened ever. It's tied to existence.
I took it as how many minutes of pay they were willing to accept to do the job. Employees get paid on how much time they work. How fast also works, but I think it comes out to the same thing. "I'll do the job for this many minutes of pay!"
Alright, I'll admit that was the entirety of the game and it's story and purpose summed up well and I agree. If this was Levine's intent, and I have no reason to believe it is not because it makes complete sense and reflects his allusions from his Giant Bomb interview as to what he wanted the game to be, then he did do a good job with the game in these regards.
I still think they could have presented that summation in the latter half of the ending better though.
Ending spoilers:
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
Steam: abunchofdaftpunk | PSN: noautomobilesgo | Lastfm: sjchszeppelin | Backloggery: colincummings | 3DS FC: 1392-6019-0219 |
Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
It may be best to just keep the duality of the games. One above and one below.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
Also, maybe it is extreme Communism and people lose their sense of individuality.
Missing the wrench. The existing melee option with the right gear isn't bad, but I felt more in control with the wrench in Bioshock, and it worked for crowd control because it didn't make your perspective all crazy like lunging at someone with the melee weapon in this game.