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Solforge: Set 3 Secrets of Solis Out Now!

2456733

Posts

  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Okay, I can see that this is a good game, but damn. Played five hours, not a single win. Gimme ranked matchmaking.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Okay, I can see that this is a good game, but damn. Played five hours, not a single win. Gimme ranked matchmaking.

    It definitely needs ranked matchmaking and draft formats. I believe both of those are going to be in the next update (estimated release is September.)

    Do you mind posting your current build?

  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    The two starter decks. One Tempys/Uterra, one Alloyin/Nekrium.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    The two starter decks. One Tempys/Uterra, one Alloyin/Nekrium.

    Are you Echo? I'll send you a challenge with one of my jankier decks.

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    So I'm trying to play this through steam but every time I click to play it steam starts to install microsoft vc redist. After it finishes I click to play and it does it again. It just wont stop.

    Have any of you had this problem and know how to fix it?

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Delete the local content?

    Also; the timed mode in this game should be, like, 10minutes. Not 30.

    Darkewolfe
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Stragint wrote: »
    So I'm trying to play this through steam but every time I click to play it steam starts to install microsoft vc redist. After it finishes I click to play and it does it again. It just wont stop.

    Have any of you had this problem and know how to fix it?

    I think I saw this issue on the forums and I believe it can be dodged by starting the game via the .bat or .exe file in the steam folder.

    admanb on
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    Wow, they give you so few starting Tempyst cards that it's literally impossible to build a Tempyst starting deck in conjunction with anything but Uterra. That's an...odd decision. Why not just 15 of each?

    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    I don't see a .bat and when I try to launch SolForge.exe it says, "The program can't start because MSVCP110.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem". I've reinstalled this game a ton of times already.

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • VicVic Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I played the hell out of the first version of the beta of this on my iPad, and I have been enjoying picking it up again this weekend and actually building a deck. I just love the number of options you have every single round, and the strategic depth that comes out of literally building your deck as you are playing it.

    I'm currently playing an Alloyin/Uterra deck, though I have not managed to personalize it too much since I have only unlocked about 5 cards that have been at all usable in my 8 or so packs so far.

    Vic on
  • SnarfmasterSnarfmaster Registered User regular
    Wyvern wrote: »
    Wow, they give you so few starting Tempyst cards that it's literally impossible to build a Tempyst starting deck in conjunction with anything but Uterra. That's an...odd decision. Why not just 15 of each?

    Neck Temp works fairly well with just the starting cards as an obnoxiously offensive deck,

  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    Wyvern wrote: »
    Wow, they give you so few starting Tempyst cards that it's literally impossible to build a Tempyst starting deck in conjunction with anything but Uterra. That's an...odd decision. Why not just 15 of each?

    Neck Temp works fairly well with just the starting cards as an obnoxiously offensive deck,
    Yeah, that's what I was going to do until I hit 28 cards and ran out. You get 13 Tempyst, 17 Uterra, and 15 of the others, so T/U is the only valid combination containing Tempyst until you buy boosters.

    Also, one game in, Solforge has already started making me appreciate how generous Hearthstone is with spells. You play Mage in Hearthstone and you get all the best core spells right off the bat, like Polymorph and Fireball and Flamestrike and stuff. So while it's entirely possible for your opponent to throw Ysera or Ragnaros or some other ridiculous legendary that's like twice as good as your best card, you're like "goddamn it!"...and then immediately insta-kill it or silence it or whatever because you have loads of excellent counters for big creatures with most starter decks.

    Whereas my first Solforge game basically went like: "Oh hey, this guy has removal and I don't. I guess I lose."

    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Hearthstone's starting cards/early rewards are definitely better than SolForge's, "Here are two starters, good luck!" but I think in the long term SolForge has the edge. The daily rewards are pretty generous, and will get even more so when the tournament system is implemented.

    However, that early stage of building up your playsets of commons and rares a few of a time is brutal.

  • ElementalorElementalor Registered User regular
    I can't wait for matchmaking as well. Too many stomps one way or the other.
    Echo wrote: »
    Okay, I like this.

    Is there anything to get rid of Defender? Was fighting a guy that kept locking my shit down by turning them into Defenders.

    I only have one card that gets rid of it, Jetpack.

    Card list(which I'm mostly too lazy to go through myself) is here http://solforgewiki.forgewatch.com/wiki/2013_Core_Set

    Marvel Future Fight: dElementalor
    FFBE: 898,311,440
    Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/dElementalor
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Metasculpt might do it.

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    So I got the game to work. How do I buy more packs without spending money?

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Stragint wrote: »
    So I got the game to work. How do I buy more packs without spending money?

    Daily log-in. First win of the day (which can be against a computer). Third win of the day (same).

    Should get at least four packs a day, on average.

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    That isn't too bad. Is there a trading system setup?

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Stragint wrote: »
    That isn't too bad. Is there a trading system setup?

    Not yet. I believe that's planned to be in the second major update.

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    So is it proper to use colors to signify what factions I'm using or should I just say the faction? I made a Red/Green (Tempys/Uterra) but so far it performs rather poorly with my extremely limited card pool. For now Red/Black (Tempys/Nekrium) is a lot more solid to use.

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • LucedesLucedes never stops, never started Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    did they just switch from giving a basic / normal pack per reward to a single random card and twice as much silver?

    that's uh

    that's pretty brutal

    EDIT: or have i just been super lucky with daily rewards and gotten only basic/normal packs before?

    Lucedes on
  • VicVic Registered User regular
    Lucedes wrote: »
    did they just switch from giving a basic / normal pack per reward to a single random card and twice as much silver?

    that's uh

    that's pretty brutal

    EDIT: or have i just been super lucky with daily rewards and gotten only basic/normal packs before?

    I am almost certain it has been random for me, I either get a card or a pack plus the silver.

  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    edited August 2013
    Got me a Death Seeker. Last night I fought a guy that had a bunch of those and Cull the Weak. Very nasty combo - CtW needs to be leveled early, or the enemy dudes will be too fat to use it.

    Except Death Seekers are 1/1, so you can drop Death Seekers and then CtW them to pop their Spirit Warrior. Turn a 1/1 into a 5/5 (at level 1) AND level up your CtW in one go. Very nasty.

    edit: not to mention the cards where you sacrifice a creature for something. Death Seekers are just synergy fodder.

    Echo on
    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    holy shit I won a game

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    admanbRisenPhoenix
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Yeah, there's some definite whining on the official forums that this isn't a "pay to win" game, but it's definitely a "pay to have a chance to win within a reasonable time frame" game.

    I'm hoping my kickstarter credit lets me do some interesting drafting tournaments or something. Constructed is just head-butting of the same predictable meta.

    What is this I don't even.
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    Darkewolfe
  • VicVic Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    That does not seem entirely fair, it is not like all cards in Magic and other CCGs are balanced against each other, there are always rarer and more powerful cards to encourage people to buy more packs. The resource design might have exacerbated the problem a bit, but poor balancing is the root cause.

    That said, it seems that rarer cards generally have more interesting abilities, which inherently allows for more powerful synergy and cooler combos. Which is how it should work, really, but it makes the starter decks pretty boring.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Vic wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    That does not seem entirely fair, it is not like all cards in Magic and other CCGs are balanced against each other, there are always rarer and more powerful cards to encourage people to buy more packs. The resource design might have exacerbated the problem a bit, but poor balancing is the root cause.

    That said, it seems that rarer cards generally have more interesting abilities, which inherently allows for more powerful synergy and cooler combos. Which is how it should work, really, but it makes the starter decks pretty boring.

    Poor balancing absolutely is and has been a problem throughout beta. Certain cards have reliably been unbeatable juggernauts of doom through each revision, and the flavor of the month just changes from patch to patch. The question is whether they can get the card pool to a balanced state BEFORE launch.

    I don't think they can. And I don't think they can maintain any balance through subsequent card releases.

    This is ALWAYS going to be a game of "chase the power card" and those willing to spend will have the advantage.

    Darkewolfe on
    What is this I don't even.
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Vic wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    That does not seem entirely fair, it is not like all cards in Magic and other CCGs are balanced against each other, there are always rarer and more powerful cards to encourage people to buy more packs. The resource design might have exacerbated the problem a bit, but poor balancing is the root cause.

    That said, it seems that rarer cards generally have more interesting abilities, which inherently allows for more powerful synergy and cooler combos. Which is how it should work, really, but it makes the starter decks pretty boring.

    Poor balancing absolutely is and has been a problem throughout beta. Certain cards have reliably been unbeatable juggernauts of doom through each revision, and the flavor of the month just changes from patch to patch. The question is whether they can get the card pool to a balanced state BEFORE launch.

    I don't think they can. And I don't think they can maintain any balance through subsequent card releases.

    This is ALWAYS going to be a game of "chase the power card" and those willing to spend will have the advantage.

    So you're saying it's a CCG?

    Balance is pretty solid right now. There have been a few big community tournaments and they've been won by strong synergistic Savant builds with very few Legendaries.

    admanb on
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Vic wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    That does not seem entirely fair, it is not like all cards in Magic and other CCGs are balanced against each other, there are always rarer and more powerful cards to encourage people to buy more packs. The resource design might have exacerbated the problem a bit, but poor balancing is the root cause.

    That said, it seems that rarer cards generally have more interesting abilities, which inherently allows for more powerful synergy and cooler combos. Which is how it should work, really, but it makes the starter decks pretty boring.

    The actual effect on deck construction is much more pronounced here, though. Mana costs limit what you can practically put into a deck. You can't build a 60-card Magic deck out of nothing but giant mega-strong Screw You monsters because most of them will cost so much. You're forced to mix cheaper, lower-impact cards in there too. In Solforge you get to play your best cards all the time without restriction.

    Like...I have this Lightning Wyrm or something. 4/2 with Aggressive. I go up against somebody with some sort of boar monster which has about the same attack, MASSIVELY more health, and gains Aggressive when placed opposite another creature. The wyrm is only really good for removal anyway, so that card is basically flat-out better than mine. In Magic, the wyrm might cost one or two less, so even if it's generally a lesser draw, at least it's easier to combo with other spells and fills a slightly different niche in the mana curve. As opposed to "you're new, so you can have the shit version of this card".

    Or there's this other Tempys guy who deals his attack value to the entire board if he hits the player. And his stats are almost as good as most vanilla creatures, to my recollection, so if he gets through once you basically lose everything. In Magic that's probably a 7-mana doom-drop. In Solforge, you can just go ahead and drop two of them on the second turn. No, yeah, that's totally just as fair as me playing two 4/5s that don't do anything.

    I'm not exactly familiar with the meta over here, obviously, but there's a substantial difference between a Hearthstone opponent MAYBE playing a legendary on turn 8 and a Solforge player throwing cards that are way better than mine on almost every single turn of the game.

    Wyvern on
    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    The resource system of SolForge is the level up system, basically. Different cards scale and different rates and give you advantages (or disadvantages) at different points of the game. It does require more direct balancing then a conventional resource system, but it's not like giving everything a cost magically makes card games easy to balance.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Vic wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    That does not seem entirely fair, it is not like all cards in Magic and other CCGs are balanced against each other, there are always rarer and more powerful cards to encourage people to buy more packs. The resource design might have exacerbated the problem a bit, but poor balancing is the root cause.

    That said, it seems that rarer cards generally have more interesting abilities, which inherently allows for more powerful synergy and cooler combos. Which is how it should work, really, but it makes the starter decks pretty boring.

    Poor balancing absolutely is and has been a problem throughout beta. Certain cards have reliably been unbeatable juggernauts of doom through each revision, and the flavor of the month just changes from patch to patch. The question is whether they can get the card pool to a balanced state BEFORE launch.

    I don't think they can. And I don't think they can maintain any balance through subsequent card releases.

    This is ALWAYS going to be a game of "chase the power card" and those willing to spend will have the advantage.

    So you're saying it's a CCG?

    Balance is pretty solid right now. There have been a few big community tournaments and they've been won by strong synergistic Savant builds with very few Legendaries.

    Well, the community has also agreed to abstain from using particular cards. Were those rules in effect for the tourneys?

    Because I know for a couple months everyone had to agree to just not run certain cards in order to get to have any fun games out of each other.

    There's the concept of 'chase rares' which drives CCG's, and there's completely broken, unfun balance of cards. All CCG's walk the line, and even the greats falter (I'm looking at you, Jace), but so far I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Solforge can be trusted to mostly balance well.

    And I agree, Legendaries are MOSTLY situational, with heroics being the real meat of the sets.

    What is this I don't even.
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Vic wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    That does not seem entirely fair, it is not like all cards in Magic and other CCGs are balanced against each other, there are always rarer and more powerful cards to encourage people to buy more packs. The resource design might have exacerbated the problem a bit, but poor balancing is the root cause.

    That said, it seems that rarer cards generally have more interesting abilities, which inherently allows for more powerful synergy and cooler combos. Which is how it should work, really, but it makes the starter decks pretty boring.

    Poor balancing absolutely is and has been a problem throughout beta. Certain cards have reliably been unbeatable juggernauts of doom through each revision, and the flavor of the month just changes from patch to patch. The question is whether they can get the card pool to a balanced state BEFORE launch.

    I don't think they can. And I don't think they can maintain any balance through subsequent card releases.

    This is ALWAYS going to be a game of "chase the power card" and those willing to spend will have the advantage.

    So you're saying it's a CCG?

    Balance is pretty solid right now. There have been a few big community tournaments and they've been won by strong synergistic Savant builds with very few Legendaries.

    Well, the community has also agreed to abstain from using particular cards. Were those rules in effect for the tourneys?

    Nope.

  • Maledict66Maledict66 Registered User regular
    Um, cards have different power levels in different factions. They even wrote a blog post saying the factions had different strengths and cards that played to that strength would seem extra powerful.

    Your example of creatures is the case in point. The Tempys Lightning Wurm is a classic red fast beater. You can guarantee it gets its damage in and then it may stay around to do more - it's a high attack, burst card. Exactly the type of card Tempys plays as it tries to win. The green Gemboar thingy has much better stats but only gets aggressive when fighting another creature - it's completely useless at sneaking in any extra damage but is superb at taking out your opponents set-up creatures. Tempys wants to burn you down and has lots of creates that profit from damaging your opponent so lightning Wurm fits the perfectly, whereas green wants big bodies that clog uplands so your superior strengths can play out.

    Also levelling up is key. Cards have different strengths at different points in the game. Some cards are balanced to be very powerful at level 1, but weaker at the higher levels. In effect it's a resource system hidden behind the levelling up mechanic and is quite clever in the way it works and the depth it can give cards.

  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Wyvern wrote: »
    The actual effect on deck construction is much more pronounced here, though. Mana costs limit what you can practically put into a deck. You can't build a 60-card Magic deck out of nothing but giant mega-strong Screw You monsters because most of them will cost so much. You're forced to mix cheaper, lower-impact cards in there too. In Solforge you get to play your best cards all the time without restriction.

    Like...I have this Lightning Wyrm or something. 4/2 with Aggressive. I go up against somebody with some sort of boar monster which has about the same attack, MASSIVELY more health, and gains Aggressive when placed opposite another creature. The wyrm is only really good for removal anyway, so that card is basically flat-out better than mine. In Magic, the wyrm might cost one or two less, so even if it's generally a lesser draw, at least it's easier to combo with other spells and fills a slightly different niche in the mana curve. As opposed to "you're new, so you can have the shit version of this card".

    I agree that the Lightning Wyrm is probably not very good, but it's role is not at all removal -- it's to shove damage through. The Wyrm is a significantly better aggro creature than the boar.
    Or there's this other Tempys guy who deals his attack value to the entire board if he hits the player. And his stats are almost as good as most vanilla creatures, to my recollection, so if he gets through once you basically lose everything. In Magic that's probably a 7-mana doom-drop. In Solforge, you can just go ahead and drop two of them on the second turn. No, yeah, that's totally just as fair as me playing two 4/5s that don't do anything.

    That's not at all true. The Flameblade Champion is a (4/5)(7/9)(12/16), which is poor compared to vanilla creatures. Tempys alone has (6/6)(9/9)(12/12), or (3/6)(9/14)(12/16), or the (5/5)(9/9)(17/17) Master of Elements (which may actually be a little bit too good.) Yes, it's extremely powerful if it pushes through, but it matches up badly against most on-level creatures so you're going to have to put a lot of effort into getting it through.

    admanb on
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    admanb wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    The resource system of SolForge is the level up system, basically. Different cards scale and different rates and give you advantages (or disadvantages) at different points of the game. It does require more direct balancing then a conventional resource system, but it's not like giving everything a cost magically makes card games easy to balance.

    This highlights an interesting aspect of Solforge's learning curve, which is that learning how cards are budgeted from scratch is really goddamn hard.

    In most games the patterns are pretty obvious. Like maybe X mana will generally buy you an X/X. Add somewhere and you take away somewhere else. Maybe an X+1/X-1, or X-1/X+2, or X-1/X with an ability, or whatever. It's easy to estimate where a card rests on the power curve relative to its cost.

    In Solforge, this guy is a 15/16 with this ability, and that one is 14/17 with THAT ability, and he's an 18/19 with no ability, but at level two it's all like this instead, and OH GOD I FORGET WHAT NUMBERS MEAN

    The difference between a 15/16 and a 16/16 is enormous when they get played in a lane against each other, but since the numbers are so high and the variance is so wide, it's really difficult for a novice to look at 15/16 in isolation and know if it's good or not. If you want to know if it will tend to trade favorably or unfavorably, you can't just check the average for some subset of cards with a similar cost; you need to be intimately familiar with every other card in the game, times three.

    I can sort of tell that my Necrotic Wurm or whatever it's called is average-ish at level 1, below average at level 2, and above average at level 3, but how big of a deal is that? How many important trades does it miss in the middle? How big of an impact are those couple of extra points in the endgame? And what are the immediate strategic consequences of giving up a strong rank 2 overall? I haven't got the foggiest idea; it's all so foreign even if you're familiar with other card games.

    Wyvern on
    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
    admanb
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Yup. The fact that damage sticks adds another level. For example, 3 or 4 attack is pretty bad if you have 4 or 5 defense, but if you have 6 defense it trades with almost anything.

  • VicVic Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Wyvern wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Funny thing is that the game wouldn't have that issue if it had a traditional cost resource like Magic and other CCGs.

    But since you can play any card if you have it in your hand no matter what, there will by definition be cards that are objectively better than other cards. And you sure don't get those in a starter deck.

    The resource system of SolForge is the level up system, basically. Different cards scale and different rates and give you advantages (or disadvantages) at different points of the game. It does require more direct balancing then a conventional resource system, but it's not like giving everything a cost magically makes card games easy to balance.

    This highlights an interesting aspect of Solforge's learning curve, which is that learning how cards are budgeted from scratch is really goddamn hard.

    In most games the patterns are pretty obvious. Like maybe X mana will generally buy you an X/X. Add somewhere and you take away somewhere else. Maybe an X+1/X-1, or X-1/X+2, or X-1/X with an ability, or whatever. It's easy to estimate where a card rests on the power curve relative to its cost.

    In Solforge, this guy is a 15/16 with this ability, and that one is 14/17 with THAT ability, and he's an 18/19 with no ability, but at level two it's all like this instead, and OH GOD I FORGET WHAT NUMBERS MEAN

    The difference between a 15/16 and a 16/16 is enormous when they get played in a lane against each other, but since the numbers are so high and the variance is so wide, it's really difficult for a novice to look at 15/16 in isolation and know if it's good or not. If you want to know if it will tend to trade favorably or unfavorably, you can't just check the average for some subset of cards with a similar cost; you need to be intimately familiar with every other card in the game, times three.

    I can sort of tell that my Necrotic Wurm or whatever it's called is average-ish at level 1, below average at level 2, and above average at level 3, but how big of a deal is that? How many important trades does it miss in the middle? How big of an impact are those couple of extra points in the endgame? And what are the immediate strategic consequences of giving up a strong rank 2 overall? I haven't got the foggiest idea; it's all so foreign even if you're familiar with other card games.

    While this is true, I have personally found these systems really intuitive. Since every round you have a new game state and set of cards, you constantly have to make important judgements on what cards you want to play and what cards you can afford to play. I recently switched out a bunch of robot cards in my deck for assassins, because after playing it for ten games I realized that it usually peaks just before level 3 and thus a card that is really strong at level 2 (12/13) is more useful than one that is stronger at level 1 and has even progression. Studying the cards and guides could never have taught me that as well as just playing the game did.

    Vic on
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    Yup. The fact that damage sticks adds another level. For example, 3 or 4 attack is pretty bad if you have 4 or 5 defense, but if you have 6 defense it trades with almost anything.
    4/5 is bad? I thought 4/5 was pretty good! Who trades way better than a 4/5 at level 1?

    I think at this point my favorite card is just the common black skeleton guy. 8/1. Okay. I know with complete confidence what this card is for and why I would play it. Ultimate chump blocker. I can process this.

    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Wyvern wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    Yup. The fact that damage sticks adds another level. For example, 3 or 4 attack is pretty bad if you have 4 or 5 defense, but if you have 6 defense it trades with almost anything.
    4/5 is bad? I thought 4/5 was pretty good! Who trades way better than a 4/5 at level 1?

    I think at this point my favorite card is just the common black skeleton guy. 8/1. Okay. I know with complete confidence what this card is for and why I would play it. Ultimate chump blocker. I can process this.

    4/5 is just below average, I would say. There are enough 5/5s to make that combination a liability.

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