Aw, come on, he's got floppy hair and wears a pink-red suit with lace ruffles and he's shy and mysterious. Okay, so he's not quite the chef of the Tres Bien, but he's certainly less manly-looking than sharp blue-suit wearing Phoenix.
And there you go - Metroid Prime gets lauded for its strong female lead, another thing which many games lack. :P
Hey hey hey HEY HEY!
Hey.
Big difference between being a fop and being effete. Edgeworth is a bit of a fancypants but there's absolutely nothing girly about him. In terms of facial features and build he's a hell of a lot manlier than Phoenix.
As I recall, don't you get control over the character skin? Hair/face/etc? Okay I recall the Gangrel male being very manly, but... it's a Gangrel.
The game overall was very GLBT friendly, if I'm remembering correctly. My female Tremere was a raging lesbian (though I suppose that doesn't count...).
A part of the effeminate thing goes back to the Shinto roots. Balance and harmony are power. Being in touch with all sides of humanity means that you're... well... better than others. Hell, all last bosses go through stages of looking like monster... looking more like a monster... then their final form is nearly always something back to a beautiful person of some sort. With the caveat that there are other arguments to entertain as to why this is (basically offshoots of the uncanny valley, it's easier to fear/be in awe of things that are like us instead of abstract things), but I like religion as a major contributing factor. :P
Man, Edgeworth really doesn't seem all that vain or foppish to me.
But I digress. Effeminate is probably a word being flung around too freely in this thread anyway. Most of the time it's just a cry against pretty boys.
I mean, Tidus, although young and pretty didn't seem all that simpering or girlish to me (from what I observed of the game, never played it). It's nearly always about looks/dress/build rather than mannerisms.
Dracomicron - I don't recall being able to change your appearance beyond male/female. And, as with many games, it was pretty much mostly lesbian friendly. There were no male characters to seduce and VV wasn't nearly as flirtatious if you were a male.
I actually think the most neutral, GLBT-friendly game you can play is the Sims 2.
Dracomicron - I don't recall being able to change your appearance beyond male/female. And, as with many games, it was pretty much mostly lesbian friendly. There were no male characters to seduce and VV wasn't nearly as flirtatious if you were a male.
I'm probably conflating my Vampire: The Masquerade experience with Bloodlines. Given how much influence Anne Rice had on V:tM, it's no wonder that it's as queer as an umbrella hat. I forget that Bloodlines is another genre, no matter how faithful to the art and atmosphere they were.
Dracomicron - I don't recall being able to change your appearance beyond male/female. And, as with many games, it was pretty much mostly lesbian friendly. There were no male characters to seduce and VV wasn't nearly as flirtatious if you were a male.
I'm probably conflating my Vampire: The Masquerade experience with Bloodlines. Given how much influence Anne Rice had on V:tM, it's no wonder that it's as queer as an umbrella hat. I forget that Bloodlines is another genre, no matter how faithful to the art and atmosphere they were.
Hey whoa, let's not be too hasty. Umbrella hats are handsome and practical. But yeah, Vampire is queer as the parson on a Sunday.
Dracomicron - I don't recall being able to change your appearance beyond male/female. And, as with many games, it was pretty much mostly lesbian friendly. There were no male characters to seduce and VV wasn't nearly as flirtatious if you were a male.
I'm probably conflating my Vampire: The Masquerade experience with Bloodlines. Given how much influence Anne Rice had on V:tM, it's no wonder that it's as queer as an umbrella hat. I forget that Bloodlines is another genre, no matter how faithful to the art and atmosphere they were.
Hey whoa, let's not be too hasty. Umbrella hats are handsome and practical. But yeah, Vampire is queer as the parson on a Sunday.
Now now, parsons are upstanding members of the community. But yeah, Vampire is as queer as an afro on a chihuahua.
Typical American protagonist: Adult, gruff, battle-hardened male. Probably either from the military or has had military experience in the past. Most likely as some sort of special ops.
Typical Japanese protagonist: 12 years old, schoolgirl, but the developers tell you it's actually a schoolboy. No battle experience whatsoever. Huge portions of the story will revolve around his horribly awkward and embarrassing crush on the so-giggly-you-want-to-tear-her-throat-out supporting character.
Typical American game name: Death Man 6: Redemption.
Typical Japanese game name: Super Ultra Happy Fun Fun Rape Time Sapphire Gold 2.
Laugh
I think a lot of differences are going to be hard to really peg, as you can always find the exceptions on both sides, but personally, I think that this (which you've probably all seen) does a pretty good job of casting light on JRPGs.
I wasn't really going for "good" there. Vaguely amusing or bizarre, perhaps.
Nobody actually thinks that umbrella hats or a dog with a human hair style is related to homosexuality (except the most bigoted jackass, perhaps).
Actually I just saw a guy wearing an umbrella hat the other day, and I'd never seen it before, so it was awesome. I was like "How have I never heard of this?"
Dracomicron - I don't recall being able to change your appearance beyond male/female. And, as with many games, it was pretty much mostly lesbian friendly. There were no male characters to seduce and VV wasn't nearly as flirtatious if you were a male.
I'm probably conflating my Vampire: The Masquerade experience with Bloodlines. Given how much influence Anne Rice had on V:tM, it's no wonder that it's as queer as an umbrella hat. I forget that Bloodlines is another genre, no matter how faithful to the art and atmosphere they were.
Hey whoa, let's not be too hasty. Umbrella hats are handsome and practical. But yeah, Vampire is queer as the parson on a Sunday.
Now now, parsons are upstanding members of the community. But yeah, Vampire is as queer as an afro on a chihuahua.
Naw man, chihuahuas are all manwich with a side of manyonnaise. However, Vampire is as queer as Aroduc talking about similes.
Dracomicron - I don't recall being able to change your appearance beyond male/female. And, as with many games, it was pretty much mostly lesbian friendly. There were no male characters to seduce and VV wasn't nearly as flirtatious if you were a male.
I'm probably conflating my Vampire: The Masquerade experience with Bloodlines. Given how much influence Anne Rice had on V:tM, it's no wonder that it's as queer as an umbrella hat. I forget that Bloodlines is another genre, no matter how faithful to the art and atmosphere they were.
Hey whoa, let's not be too hasty. Umbrella hats are handsome and practical. But yeah, Vampire is queer as the parson on a Sunday.
Now now, parsons are upstanding members of the community. But yeah, Vampire is as queer as an afro on a chihuahua.
Naw man, chihuahuas are all manwich with a side of manyonnaise. However, Vampire is as queer as Aroduc talking about similes.
Typical American protagonist: Adult, gruff, battle-hardened male. Probably either from the military or has had military experience in the past. Most likely as some sort of special ops.
Typical Japanese protagonist: 12 years old, schoolgirl, but the developers tell you it's actually a schoolboy. No battle experience whatsoever. Huge portions of the story will revolve around his horribly awkward and embarrassing crush on the so-giggly-you-want-to-tear-her-throat-out supporting character.
Typical American game name: Death Man 6: Redemption.
Typical Japanese game name: Super Ultra Happy Fun Fun Rape Time Sapphire Gold 2.
Laugh
I think a lot of differences are going to be hard to really peg, as you can always find the exceptions on both sides, but personally, I think that this (which you've probably all seen) does a pretty good job of casting light on JRPGs.
Shit, Death Man 6 is out? I still haven't finished 5
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I somehow doubt it. The military aspects of FF7 are so diluted that you really don't get a military feel until pretty far into the game. If we had to go with a "macho" reason that it was popular, I'd take Barrett. But I rather think that FF7's popularity was due to it's enormous length, obscenely labrynthine plot, and appeal to the lowest common denomonator of RPG gamers. It was something that we hadn't seen much of up until that point... and the better western games like Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain were a touch too mature for many players.
Dracomicron on
0
Options
Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
edited September 2007
Vincent was by far the most effeminate male in FF7 that I can recall. He wasn't girly in how he acted, though.
I think skinny or at least lean guys are generally farther up on the hotness scale than big and strong guys in America too. Justin Timberlake-type instead of The Rock-type. I think most girls are satisfied by low body-fat, it's the men who want men to be big and powerful.
I don't understand the effiminate thing though, that's just /weird/. But then, I don't think girls understand why lesbians are so fascinating for the guys either.
Yumcake on
Cake is yum, is yum cake? I think, therefore I am. I am... Yumcake.
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
That's not really an explanation for why it was popular. It was a lot of people's "My First RPG" because it was popular, not the other way around.
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
That's not really an explanation for why it was popular. It was a lot of people's "My First RPG" because it was popular, not the other way around.
Well, as I recall, FF7 was heavily advertised; moreso than any other PS2 RPG before that.
It's possible that it was used as a sort of "new market buster."
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
That's not really an explanation for why it was popular. It was a lot of people's "My First RPG" because it was popular, not the other way around.
Well, as I recall, FF7 was heavily advertised; moreso than any other PS2 RPG before that.
It's possible that it was used as a sort of "new market buster."
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
That's not really an explanation for why it was popular. It was a lot of people's "My First RPG" because it was popular, not the other way around.
Well, as I recall, FF7 was heavily advertised; moreso than any other PS2 RPG before that.
It's possible that it was used as a sort of "new market buster."
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
That's not really an explanation for why it was popular. It was a lot of people's "My First RPG" because it was popular, not the other way around.
Which I guess was my original point. According to the points a lot of people have made in the thread, Cloud would have significant appeal to a lot of people and genders both here and in Japan. While the later FF protaganists are almost all labeled as emo whiney pretty boys.
Although I'm probably reading to much into it and other factors like advertising were more important.
Typos aside, FFVII really was the perfect storm. FF6 and Chrono Trigger's high quality had the established JRPG gamers primed and ready for more and the PS1's CD media was a perfect marriage partner for the genre. Throw in a great game, some FMV, and a dash of heavy advertising and it's rather unlikely that we'll see a JRPG make such a big splash again for quite some time, just because everyone is more jaded now, if nothing else.
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
That's not really an explanation for why it was popular. It was a lot of people's "My First RPG" because it was popular, not the other way around.
Which I guess was my original point. According to the points a lot of people have made in the thread, Cloud would have significant appeal to a lot of people and genders both here and in Japan. While the later FF protaganists are almost all labeled as emo whiney pretty boys.
Although I'm probably reading to much into it and other factors like advertising were more important.
If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that there wasn't enough of an 'effeminate lead' cliche at the time to affect gamers either way. As was mentioned, this was the first RPG experience for a lot of people, and a lot of those people knew nothing of those stereotypes. Advertising and 'wow-factor' from the cutscenes is what hooked most people, I think, and after that was an enjoyable, if flawed, story and battle system.
I wonder if the reason why FF7 became and is so popular here was because Cloud was ex-military it canceled out the fact the he was effimate like most the other FF main characters.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
That's not really an explanation for why it was popular. It was a lot of people's "My First RPG" because it was popular, not the other way around.
Well, as I recall, FF7 was heavily advertised; moreso than any other PS2 RPG before that.
It's possible that it was used as a sort of "new market buster."
Point taken, but I'd have to chalk it up to heavy advertising, word of mouth, and amazing graphics for it's time. I remember how that opening movie blew me away the first time I saw it. Plus it had an exciting opening unlike many RPGs at the time (and still today) so thats a good hook for players to continue and go deeper.
Edit: And Cloud never seemed very interesting to me, but it was a fun game.
Plus it had an exciting opening unlike many RPGs at the time (and still today) so thats a good hook for players to continue and go deeper.
This is something I can't believe more games don't do. Movies figured out decades ago that if you want to get a viewer/player hooked, give them something exciting to start off with. An hour of tutorial/prologue with nothing interesting can suck my balls, and too many games from both sides of the planet still haven't realized this.
Plus it had an exciting opening unlike many RPGs at the time (and still today) so thats a good hook for players to continue and go deeper.
This is something I can't believe more games don't do. Movies figured out decades ago that if you want to get a viewer/player hooked, give them something exciting to start off with. An hour of tutorial/prologue with nothing interesting can suck my balls, and too many games from both sides of the planet still haven't realized this.
Plus it had an exciting opening unlike many RPGs at the time (and still today) so thats a good hook for players to continue and go deeper.
This is something I can't believe more games don't do. Movies figured out decades ago that if you want to get a viewer/player hooked, give them something exciting to start off with. An hour of tutorial/prologue with nothing interesting can suck my balls, and too many games from both sides of the planet still haven't realized this.
Shonen: "THIS DRILL WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS!!!!!"
Shojo: "THIS DRILL WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS......gently"
Bishonen: "THIS DRILL WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS...after I put my make-up on and uuuuh so kawaaaiiiiiiii!"
(yes, I'm probably going to get lynched for gross oversimplification)
fixed
It's an aside but that anime was utterly hilarious. They had the token lead male, but then put in a character with an ego so huge it actually made the show enjoyable. Also, it didn't take itself too seriously.
Which reminds me, something I've noticed with regard to games and criticism:
Japanese games are often criticised for being too different. A lot of times I see games reviewed poorly in Japan it's because they differ too much from the base formula. Now, I'm not equating this with good games, popular games or even a particular genre, but it's interesting when you consider:
Western media tends to criticise games that lack originality. It's one of the primary complaints (addendum: that I've noticed) with modern video games - they are becoming too similar. Some companies, like Blizzard, have made this an artform, and while I won't deny that "safe" games tend to sell well, I do find it interesting that we (or our journalists) seem to crave original and new experiences, while in Japan the opposite seems to be true.
I remember how that opening movie blew me away the first time I saw it. Plus it had an exciting opening unlike many RPGs at the time (and still today) so thats a good hook for players to continue and go deeper.
Edit: And Cloud never seemed very interesting to me, but it was a fun game.
See I never understood the amazement over the opening movie. Granted, I only played FF7 after FF8, but the opening movie is what 10 seconds long? And it's just a float down from a city onto Aeris. I just don't see how that was wowing, especially compared to FF8's which had an amazing score and snychronized the music to the action so damn well. I didn't see anything in the FF7 'intro' that I hadn't seen in those cheap 3D graphic movie discs that they used to sell in the bargain bins in CompUSA.
The opening and the way it went straight and practically streamlessly from the movie to the game was cool though.
I remember how that opening movie blew me away the first time I saw it. Plus it had an exciting opening unlike many RPGs at the time (and still today) so thats a good hook for players to continue and go deeper.
Edit: And Cloud never seemed very interesting to me, but it was a fun game.
See I never understood the amazement over the opening movie. Granted, I only played FF7 after FF8, but the opening movie is what 10 seconds long? And it's just a float down from a city onto Aeris. I just don't see how that was wowing, especially compared to FF8's which had an amazing score and snychronized the music to the action so damn well. I didn't see anything in the FF7 'intro' that I hadn't seen in those cheap 3D graphic movie discs that they used to sell in the bargain bins in CompUSA.
The opening and the way it went straight and practically streamlessly from the movie to the game was cool though.
It's because you played FF7 after FF8. Seriously. If I had played 8 first, I'm sure I would have been ruined on 7's cinematics. But when that's your first experience with anything like that, it's absolutely magical. Oh, and the music was perfect. I still get goosebumps watching it.
Posts
Hey hey hey HEY HEY!
Hey.
Big difference between being a fop and being effete. Edgeworth is a bit of a fancypants but there's absolutely nothing girly about him. In terms of facial features and build he's a hell of a lot manlier than Phoenix.
And...I admit to never playing Bloodlines.
As I recall, don't you get control over the character skin? Hair/face/etc? Okay I recall the Gangrel male being very manly, but... it's a Gangrel.
The game overall was very GLBT friendly, if I'm remembering correctly. My female Tremere was a raging lesbian (though I suppose that doesn't count...).
But I digress. Effeminate is probably a word being flung around too freely in this thread anyway. Most of the time it's just a cry against pretty boys.
I mean, Tidus, although young and pretty didn't seem all that simpering or girlish to me (from what I observed of the game, never played it). It's nearly always about looks/dress/build rather than mannerisms.
Dracomicron - I don't recall being able to change your appearance beyond male/female. And, as with many games, it was pretty much mostly lesbian friendly. There were no male characters to seduce and VV wasn't nearly as flirtatious if you were a male.
I actually think the most neutral, GLBT-friendly game you can play is the Sims 2.
I'm probably conflating my Vampire: The Masquerade experience with Bloodlines. Given how much influence Anne Rice had on V:tM, it's no wonder that it's as queer as an umbrella hat. I forget that Bloodlines is another genre, no matter how faithful to the art and atmosphere they were.
Steam BoardGameGeek Twitter
Now now, parsons are upstanding members of the community. But yeah, Vampire is as queer as an afro on a chihuahua.
Typical American protagonist: Adult, gruff, battle-hardened male. Probably either from the military or has had military experience in the past. Most likely as some sort of special ops.
Typical Japanese protagonist: 12 years old, schoolgirl, but the developers tell you it's actually a schoolboy. No battle experience whatsoever. Huge portions of the story will revolve around his horribly awkward and embarrassing crush on the so-giggly-you-want-to-tear-her-throat-out supporting character.
Typical American game name: Death Man 6: Redemption.
Typical Japanese game name: Super Ultra Happy Fun Fun Rape Time Sapphire Gold 2.
I think a lot of differences are going to be hard to really peg, as you can always find the exceptions on both sides, but personally, I think that this (which you've probably all seen) does a pretty good job of casting light on JRPGs.
I wasn't really going for "good" there. Vaguely amusing or bizarre, perhaps.
Nobody actually thinks that umbrella hats or a dog with a human hair style is related to homosexuality (except the most bigoted jackass, perhaps).
Actually I just saw a guy wearing an umbrella hat the other day, and I'd never seen it before, so it was awesome. I was like "How have I never heard of this?"
Steam BoardGameGeek Twitter
I'm afraid I have no reasonable retort to that.
Shit, Death Man 6 is out? I still haven't finished 5
I somehow doubt it. The military aspects of FF7 are so diluted that you really don't get a military feel until pretty far into the game. If we had to go with a "macho" reason that it was popular, I'd take Barrett. But I rather think that FF7's popularity was due to it's enormous length, obscenely labrynthine plot, and appeal to the lowest common denomonator of RPG gamers. It was something that we hadn't seen much of up until that point... and the better western games like Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain were a touch too mature for many players.
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass
I don't understand the effiminate thing though, that's just /weird/. But then, I don't think girls understand why lesbians are so fascinating for the guys either.
I was always under the impression it was because it was a lot of people's "My First RPG". RPGs were kind of a niche genre before the Playstation.
Well, as I recall, FF7 was heavily advertised; moreso than any other PS2 RPG before that.
It's possible that it was used as a sort of "new market buster."
There wasn't even a PS2 at the time. :P
FF7 was really ahead of its time.
Which I guess was my original point. According to the points a lot of people have made in the thread, Cloud would have significant appeal to a lot of people and genders both here and in Japan. While the later FF protaganists are almost all labeled as emo whiney pretty boys.
Although I'm probably reading to much into it and other factors like advertising were more important.
Case in point: Halo. Huge amounts of marketing, and its a good game. BEST GAEM EVAR? No, but it wouldn't be successful if it sucked.
Very little competition is their genres; console RPG and console shooter, also helped alot, too.
Point taken, but I'd have to chalk it up to heavy advertising, word of mouth, and amazing graphics for it's time. I remember how that opening movie blew me away the first time I saw it. Plus it had an exciting opening unlike many RPGs at the time (and still today) so thats a good hook for players to continue and go deeper.
Edit: And Cloud never seemed very interesting to me, but it was a fun game.
Golden Sun. Golden Sun. Golden Sun.
GAH
Kingdom Hearts II.
Steam BoardGameGeek Twitter
It's an aside but that anime was utterly hilarious. They had the token lead male, but then put in a character with an ego so huge it actually made the show enjoyable. Also, it didn't take itself too seriously.
Which reminds me, something I've noticed with regard to games and criticism:
Japanese games are often criticised for being too different. A lot of times I see games reviewed poorly in Japan it's because they differ too much from the base formula. Now, I'm not equating this with good games, popular games or even a particular genre, but it's interesting when you consider:
Western media tends to criticise games that lack originality. It's one of the primary complaints (addendum: that I've noticed) with modern video games - they are becoming too similar. Some companies, like Blizzard, have made this an artform, and while I won't deny that "safe" games tend to sell well, I do find it interesting that we (or our journalists) seem to crave original and new experiences, while in Japan the opposite seems to be true.
See I never understood the amazement over the opening movie. Granted, I only played FF7 after FF8, but the opening movie is what 10 seconds long? And it's just a float down from a city onto Aeris. I just don't see how that was wowing, especially compared to FF8's which had an amazing score and snychronized the music to the action so damn well. I didn't see anything in the FF7 'intro' that I hadn't seen in those cheap 3D graphic movie discs that they used to sell in the bargain bins in CompUSA.
The opening and the way it went straight and practically streamlessly from the movie to the game was cool though.
Fixed.
Only real fault I have is that the game world felt a little ill put together. I.E. soldiers with axes instead of guns in a modern setting and whatnot.