I actually really like the breadth of class interpretations. The Eldritch Knight is an obvious wink nod to 4e fighters, which is someone irritating (LOL 4E FIGHTERS ARE JUST WIZARDS). I'm assuming from the description that it'll get defendery powers and complexity like a 4e fighter from the description so as long as the magic can be easily reflavoured I'm cool with it.
The "Battle Master" (which I'm assuming to the warlord) better offer mundane healing or I am calling major shenanigans.
(Also please please please let the AtLA monk be well designed it makes me so happy)
Clerics and Wizards get a large list of options, as do Druids (via suboptions, so it's a little deceptive). Everyone else gets 2-3.
This is not including spell lists.
It is mentioned that some classes have further subchoices to make, which, fine. The example class given? Warlock.
As all prior material has suggested, we basically have another magic-is-boss edition. Thing is, if they are in fact giving magic options to every class, then that might hilariously work out somehow (though leaving behind a lot of trap options wasting space).
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
Did anyone else other than me note that many of the options appeared in 4th, though possibly under other names or classes such as "Warden" or "Warlord"?
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oxybeEntei is appaled and disappointed in youRegistered Userregular
Even a few level 1-2 wizard spells on the fighter or rogue chassis is a HUGE improvement, especially if they're self-buffs or the like.
I'm playing in a pathfinder game right now and my character is a Ninja2/Sorcerer 2. The ninja (a rogue variant with a class features going towards sneaky-ness over trap-finding/dismantling) gets a few low-level magical things (used with his daily ki points). One of these things is a Swift Action 1-5 round invisibility (based off your Ninja level, which i got at Ninja2). Just the ability to go "NOPE!" at the start of your turn is something that increase the ability of rogue-types to not just sneak around better and get their shank on whenever they want, but also give them an out should they get over their heads. The times i've seen our combat rogue get in over his head and just sit around under a pile of coats or something going "oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, I really hope they don't find me."
Seriously, the biggest problems rogues had when scouting was general inability to get back to the party should they get found out. So i made a rogue that had outs in addition to traditional rogue stealth.
Add to this my own magical abilities (like creating illusionary walls, remote creation of noises, charms, minor shapechanging, a familiar, etc...) and I can rogue with the best of them, if not out-rogue them.
Plus I can punch people in the gizzard with acid hands. No one likes getting punched in the gizzard with acid hands.
Now imagine a fighter with the ability to instantly Expeditiously Retreat... towards the enemy or out of a bad engagement. Or enlarge himself. Or magic weapon himself. Or use something like this to temporarily blind their enemy.
Because D&D magic is so damned potent and given little thought to the actual limits of what magic can and cannot do, it can add a huge amount of versatility and options to characters.
But the question is: Will 5th ed do it right or not? When is the PHB coming out, next month I think?
you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
Even a few level 1-2 wizard spells on the fighter or rogue chassis is a HUGE improvement, especially if they're self-buffs or the like.
I'm playing in a pathfinder game right now and my character is a Ninja2/Sorcerer 2. The ninja (a rogue variant with a class features going towards sneaky-ness over trap-finding/dismantling) gets a few low-level magical things (used with his daily ki points). One of these things is a Swift Action 1-5 round invisibility (based off your Ninja level, which i got at Ninja2). Just the ability to go "NOPE!" at the start of your turn is something that increase the ability of rogue-types to not just sneak around better and get their shank on whenever they want, but also give them an out should they get over their heads. The times i've seen our combat rogue get in over his head and just sit around under a pile of coats or something going "oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, I really hope they don't find me."
Seriously, the biggest problems rogues had when scouting was general inability to get back to the party should they get found out. So i made a rogue that had outs in addition to traditional rogue stealth.
Add to this my own magical abilities (like creating illusionary walls, remote creation of noises, charms, minor shapechanging, a familiar, etc...) and I can rogue with the best of them, if not out-rogue them.
Plus I can punch people in the gizzard with acid hands. No one likes getting punched in the gizzard with acid hands.
Now imagine a fighter with the ability to instantly Expeditiously Retreat... towards the enemy or out of a bad engagement. Or enlarge himself. Or magic weapon himself. Or use something like this to temporarily blind their enemy.
Because D&D magic is so damned potent and given little thought to the actual limits of what magic can and cannot do, it can add a huge amount of versatility and options to characters.
But the question is: Will 5th ed do it right or not? When is the PHB coming out, next month I think?
I can't help but read that and think '4E.' Mainly because the more mundane classes like Rogue and Fighter get stuff like that in the way of at-will riders, utilities and encounters.
oxybeEntei is appaled and disappointed in youRegistered Userregular
It kinda was.
I wanted to make an effective sneaky guy for the game but god damn did i feel... limited. And then i decided to add in some magic and all the bad went away. Sure, i lose out on the capstone abilities, but i've only played one game that ever went that high.
I can do my sneaky job much better now that I have options. I can explore, get away if caught and rejoin the party with my information. my numbers might not be as high as our pure rogue, sure, but i'm a damn fine backup. I don't need those options to be strictly magic though, and that's where 4th ed shone like a supernova: you had options, and they weren't just "have a wizard make one for you" in some shape or form. Some classes could have gotten better support, sure, but i'll take most any 4th ed class over it's 3.5 or pathfinder equivalent anytime.
you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The "Battle Master" (which I'm assuming to the warlord) better offer mundane healing or I am calling major shenanigans.
Nope, gonna be the fighter from the playtest that gets maneuvers.
Strike 1, Mearls. That warlock better own
I was lucky enough to get a read of the before print PHB pdf. The Battle Master could choose 3 from a pool of about 12 maneuver when they first pick the archetype. Quite a few of them were for control purposes, but a few were very warlord-y including a maneuver that allowed an ally to move off turn and another that gives an ally temporary hitpoints as a free action.
The Eldritch Knight is a 1/4 caster that has access to only abjuration or evocation spells from the wizard spell list. For an idea of what the spellcasting table looked like, they get 2 1st Level spells at level 3, 2nd level spells at level 7-ish, and 4th level spells at level 18-ish.
I feel like the grand irony is that anyone can make their own version of D&D that is exactly as fun as they want it to be, where "fun" is exactly what the designer deems it to be. If that's wizard supreme, that's it. If it's kung fu fighters, that's it.
If the published work isn't even going to pretend to seek a balance point, you're really not losing much by just making your own.
I mentioned the fighter as awful in specific reference to the request earlier for a 3.5/3.x character. It had nothing to do with earlier or later versions.
Besides, in 3.5, anyone can take the leadership feat(as well as that one that gets you 50k gold a level for a stronghold) barring DM approval/level requirements(and Leadership if you can make your followers Adepts and take Red Mage or some other PRC with circle magic is waaaaaaaaay more powerful than for Fighter).
But look, an optimized Adept at level 6 and up can school a same-level optimized Fighter any day of the week(potentially Expert can also) if wealth is equal. And it is INSANE that an NPC class can do that to a PC class.
also the fighters building strongholds thing from OD&D, 1st ed and later Basic (yes, basic came after 1st ed) is a very disingenuous argument. You needed to be such high level to do it that, using the rules for how much XP you are supposed to get, you'd need to play for literally years before getting that stronghold.
Back then they acknowledged that pre-4th ed D&D breaks down at high levels and just strongly suggested retiring characters above level 9-10 so they can settle down being landowners in their keep or whatever.
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
OK, does this remind anyone else at all of early Final Fantasy games (and not in a good way) and other early JRPGs where they made "new classes" by combining different class powers and giving them different visual effects and names?
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So what does the Eldritch Knight do at levels 1 and 2? Is he just a regular Fighter at that point?
In the basic rulebook the Champion Fighter archetype doesn't come in until level 3, and IIRC that was the same for the Eldritch Knight and Battle Master. So you are a vanilla fighter for level 1 and 2.
So what does the Eldritch Knight do at levels 1 and 2? Is he just a regular Fighter at that point?
Most classes don't get their subclass choice until level 3. Some are at level 2, and a few are at level 1. Cleric, probably warlock, maybe sorcerer are level 1. I think wizards were level 2, that may change. Fighters were definitely level 3.
So what does the Eldritch Knight do at levels 1 and 2? Is he just a regular Fighter at that point?
Most classes don't get their subclass choice until level 3. Some are at level 2, and a few are at level 1. Cleric, probably warlock, maybe sorcerer are level 1. I think wizards were level 2, that may change. Fighters were definitely level 3.
Why do this? I don't understand why you'd want to deny your players interesting things just because.
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So what does the Eldritch Knight do at levels 1 and 2? Is he just a regular Fighter at that point?
Most classes don't get their subclass choice until level 3. Some are at level 2, and a few are at level 1. Cleric, probably warlock, maybe sorcerer are level 1. I think wizards were level 2, that may change. Fighters were definitely level 3.
Why do this? I don't understand why you'd want to deny your players interesting things just because.
It's not 'just because.' It's just because they didn't choose to be a caster.
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oxybeEntei is appaled and disappointed in youRegistered Userregular
About the eldrich knight, are those spells cast as normal spells (ie: they take up your fighter actions) or are they things you can cast then also do your fighter stuff?
Necause otherwise you end up with the mystic theurge problem: yes you can cast both arcane and divine magic, but you can never really be both. On one turn you're a wizard and on the second turn you're a cleric. If I want to play a knight who bolsters himself with his magic, I don't want to spend a few turns playing wizard then a few turns playing fighter: I want to be "alright I magic myself up and I punch this guy with my sword". Anything less then that is missing the point.
Hell, this is probably even worse an idea in 5th ed, since most every buff spells requires concentration to maintain... which can be broken by being hit. So unless our Eldrich knight has major bonuses to maintaining concentration, I doubt he'll be buffing himself into combat anytime soon.
I really need to see this path/archetype/variant/whatnot to see how it works, but the more I think about it in the context of what I know about 5th, the more it looks like an easily ignorable option.
you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
The "Battle Master" (which I'm assuming to the warlord) better offer mundane healing or I am calling major shenanigans.
Nope, gonna be the fighter from the playtest that gets maneuvers.
Strike 1, Mearls. That warlock better own
I was lucky enough to get a read of the before print PHB pdf. The Battle Master could choose 3 from a pool of about 12 maneuver when they first pick the archetype. Quite a few of them were for control purposes, but a few were very warlord-y including a maneuver that allowed an ally to move off turn and another that gives an ally temporary hitpoints as a free action.
The Eldritch Knight is a 1/4 caster that has access to only abjuration or evocation spells from the wizard spell list. For an idea of what the spellcasting table looked like, they get 2 1st Level spells at level 3, 2nd level spells at level 7-ish, and 4th level spells at level 18-ish.
No healing on the faux-warlord? Or I can just not buy it. No healing on the Warlord was the final line for me. I'm out. See you kids in 7th Edition.
Honestly, at this point I'm probably out for good without something big to pull me back in.
I've got my edition. If I want to try something new for fantasy gaming, I've got a ton of options that actually look exciting to play. And there are a ton of non-fantasy options for gaming that I'd like to try out.
For me, specifically, 5E had a lot stacked against it.
So what does the Eldritch Knight do at levels 1 and 2? Is he just a regular Fighter at that point?
Most classes don't get their subclass choice until level 3. Some are at level 2, and a few are at level 1. Cleric, probably warlock, maybe sorcerer are level 1. I think wizards were level 2, that may change. Fighters were definitely level 3.
Why do this? I don't understand why you'd want to deny your players interesting things just because.
5th edition is another dreadful example of the level 1-2 are worthless to play phenomenon. Expect many games to start at 3 anyway ala previous editions.
4E will continue as the only edition I have run from level 1 every new campaign.
About the eldrich knight, are those spells cast as normal spells (ie: they take up your fighter actions) or are they things you can cast then also do your fighter stuff?
Necause otherwise you end up with the mystic theurge problem: yes you can cast both arcane and divine magic, but you can never really be both. On one turn you're a wizard and on the second turn you're a cleric. If I want to play a knight who bolsters himself with his magic, I don't want to spend a few turns playing wizard then a few turns playing fighter: I want to be "alright I magic myself up and I punch this guy with my sword". Anything less then that is missing the point.
Hell, this is probably even worse an idea in 5th ed, since most every buff spells requires concentration to maintain... which can be broken by being hit. So unless our Eldrich knight has major bonuses to maintaining concentration, I doubt he'll be buffing himself into combat anytime soon.
I really need to see this path/archetype/variant/whatnot to see how it works, but the more I think about it in the context of what I know about 5th, the more it looks like an easily ignorable option.
The Eldritch Knight still has to use an action in order to cast a spell. I think at a higher level (8-ish) you can cast a cantrip as a bonus action when you attack with a weapon, but no bonus action for level spells.
There is a feat (called War Caster I believe) that gives you advantage on concentration checks, allows you to cast somatic spells with no free hand, and allows you to cast offensive spell on OAs.
The "Battle Master" (which I'm assuming to the warlord) better offer mundane healing or I am calling major shenanigans.
Nope, gonna be the fighter from the playtest that gets maneuvers.
Strike 1, Mearls. That warlock better own
I was lucky enough to get a read of the before print PHB pdf. The Battle Master could choose 3 from a pool of about 12 maneuver when they first pick the archetype. Quite a few of them were for control purposes, but a few were very warlord-y including a maneuver that allowed an ally to move off turn and another that gives an ally temporary hitpoints as a free action.
The Eldritch Knight is a 1/4 caster that has access to only abjuration or evocation spells from the wizard spell list. For an idea of what the spellcasting table looked like, they get 2 1st Level spells at level 3, 2nd level spells at level 7-ish, and 4th level spells at level 18-ish.
No healing on the faux-warlord? Or I can just not buy it. No healing on the Warlord was the final line for me. I'm out. See you kids in 7th Edition.
Unfortunately you cannot shout your allies back to health in this version, just give them temporary hit points. The temporary hit points given are similar to the clerics power word: heal, however.
Temp hit points will never provide the same utility as real healing and therefore will always be inferior. That's without getting into the discussion that Hit Points aren't actually meat and why inspirational Healing makes as much sense as any other kind.
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With being able to take levels in other classes, wasn't that always the case?
The "Battle Master" (which I'm assuming to the warlord) better offer mundane healing or I am calling major shenanigans.
(Also please please please let the AtLA monk be well designed it makes me so happy)
Which is kind of hilarious, since one of the most frustrating "criticisms" from people who didn't like 4E at launch was that everyone was wizards now.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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Clerics and Wizards get a large list of options, as do Druids (via suboptions, so it's a little deceptive). Everyone else gets 2-3.
This is not including spell lists.
It is mentioned that some classes have further subchoices to make, which, fine. The example class given? Warlock.
As all prior material has suggested, we basically have another magic-is-boss edition. Thing is, if they are in fact giving magic options to every class, then that might hilariously work out somehow (though leaving behind a lot of trap options wasting space).
I'm playing in a pathfinder game right now and my character is a Ninja2/Sorcerer 2. The ninja (a rogue variant with a class features going towards sneaky-ness over trap-finding/dismantling) gets a few low-level magical things (used with his daily ki points). One of these things is a Swift Action 1-5 round invisibility (based off your Ninja level, which i got at Ninja2). Just the ability to go "NOPE!" at the start of your turn is something that increase the ability of rogue-types to not just sneak around better and get their shank on whenever they want, but also give them an out should they get over their heads. The times i've seen our combat rogue get in over his head and just sit around under a pile of coats or something going "oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, I really hope they don't find me."
Seriously, the biggest problems rogues had when scouting was general inability to get back to the party should they get found out. So i made a rogue that had outs in addition to traditional rogue stealth.
Add to this my own magical abilities (like creating illusionary walls, remote creation of noises, charms, minor shapechanging, a familiar, etc...) and I can rogue with the best of them, if not out-rogue them.
Plus I can punch people in the gizzard with acid hands. No one likes getting punched in the gizzard with acid hands.
Now imagine a fighter with the ability to instantly Expeditiously Retreat... towards the enemy or out of a bad engagement. Or enlarge himself. Or magic weapon himself. Or use something like this to temporarily blind their enemy.
Because D&D magic is so damned potent and given little thought to the actual limits of what magic can and cannot do, it can add a huge amount of versatility and options to characters.
But the question is: Will 5th ed do it right or not? When is the PHB coming out, next month I think?
I can't help but read that and think '4E.' Mainly because the more mundane classes like Rogue and Fighter get stuff like that in the way of at-will riders, utilities and encounters.
Or maybe that was your point?
Nope, gonna be the fighter from the playtest that gets maneuvers.
Strike 1, Mearls. That warlock better own
I wanted to make an effective sneaky guy for the game but god damn did i feel... limited. And then i decided to add in some magic and all the bad went away. Sure, i lose out on the capstone abilities, but i've only played one game that ever went that high.
I can do my sneaky job much better now that I have options. I can explore, get away if caught and rejoin the party with my information. my numbers might not be as high as our pure rogue, sure, but i'm a damn fine backup. I don't need those options to be strictly magic though, and that's where 4th ed shone like a supernova: you had options, and they weren't just "have a wizard make one for you" in some shape or form. Some classes could have gotten better support, sure, but i'll take most any 4th ed class over it's 3.5 or pathfinder equivalent anytime.
I was lucky enough to get a read of the before print PHB pdf. The Battle Master could choose 3 from a pool of about 12 maneuver when they first pick the archetype. Quite a few of them were for control purposes, but a few were very warlord-y including a maneuver that allowed an ally to move off turn and another that gives an ally temporary hitpoints as a free action.
The Eldritch Knight is a 1/4 caster that has access to only abjuration or evocation spells from the wizard spell list. For an idea of what the spellcasting table looked like, they get 2 1st Level spells at level 3, 2nd level spells at level 7-ish, and 4th level spells at level 18-ish.
Nice try, Mr. Mearls.
If the published work isn't even going to pretend to seek a balance point, you're really not losing much by just making your own.
I mentioned the fighter as awful in specific reference to the request earlier for a 3.5/3.x character. It had nothing to do with earlier or later versions.
Besides, in 3.5, anyone can take the leadership feat(as well as that one that gets you 50k gold a level for a stronghold) barring DM approval/level requirements(and Leadership if you can make your followers Adepts and take Red Mage or some other PRC with circle magic is waaaaaaaaay more powerful than for Fighter).
But look, an optimized Adept at level 6 and up can school a same-level optimized Fighter any day of the week(potentially Expert can also) if wealth is equal. And it is INSANE that an NPC class can do that to a PC class.
Back then they acknowledged that pre-4th ed D&D breaks down at high levels and just strongly suggested retiring characters above level 9-10 so they can settle down being landowners in their keep or whatever.
It's as if thought 5e's whole design process I've learned nothing.
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In the basic rulebook the Champion Fighter archetype doesn't come in until level 3, and IIRC that was the same for the Eldritch Knight and Battle Master. So you are a vanilla fighter for level 1 and 2.
Most classes don't get their subclass choice until level 3. Some are at level 2, and a few are at level 1. Cleric, probably warlock, maybe sorcerer are level 1. I think wizards were level 2, that may change. Fighters were definitely level 3.
Why do this? I don't understand why you'd want to deny your players interesting things just because.
I'm not joking.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I assume you get to name yourself.
nah, there is a d1000 table for that
Whenever I roll my d1000 for naming, it always comes up John Conner.
So weird.
If I wanted a game that continually bent me over a barrel for picking "wrong", I'd go play Dark Souls.
Necause otherwise you end up with the mystic theurge problem: yes you can cast both arcane and divine magic, but you can never really be both. On one turn you're a wizard and on the second turn you're a cleric. If I want to play a knight who bolsters himself with his magic, I don't want to spend a few turns playing wizard then a few turns playing fighter: I want to be "alright I magic myself up and I punch this guy with my sword". Anything less then that is missing the point.
Hell, this is probably even worse an idea in 5th ed, since most every buff spells requires concentration to maintain... which can be broken by being hit. So unless our Eldrich knight has major bonuses to maintaining concentration, I doubt he'll be buffing himself into combat anytime soon.
I really need to see this path/archetype/variant/whatnot to see how it works, but the more I think about it in the context of what I know about 5th, the more it looks like an easily ignorable option.
As Denada said, we are back to "You should just start at level 3" version of D&D. Instead of, you know, just making level 1 the equivalent to level 3.
That'd be so last edition.
No healing on the faux-warlord? Or I can just not buy it. No healing on the Warlord was the final line for me. I'm out. See you kids in 7th Edition.
I've got my edition. If I want to try something new for fantasy gaming, I've got a ton of options that actually look exciting to play. And there are a ton of non-fantasy options for gaming that I'd like to try out.
For me, specifically, 5E had a lot stacked against it.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
5th edition is another dreadful example of the level 1-2 are worthless to play phenomenon. Expect many games to start at 3 anyway ala previous editions.
4E will continue as the only edition I have run from level 1 every new campaign.
The Eldritch Knight still has to use an action in order to cast a spell. I think at a higher level (8-ish) you can cast a cantrip as a bonus action when you attack with a weapon, but no bonus action for level spells.
There is a feat (called War Caster I believe) that gives you advantage on concentration checks, allows you to cast somatic spells with no free hand, and allows you to cast offensive spell on OAs.
Unfortunately you cannot shout your allies back to health in this version, just give them temporary hit points. The temporary hit points given are similar to the clerics power word: heal, however.
The only time I've ever played a 1st level character in 3.5 and felt adequate was as a Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Exhalation.
And of course, that gets outpaced quite quickly by actual spellcasters, too.