I was reading the post-Soviet thread before hearing this news yesterday and immediately thought, "I wonder if we're a bit uncomfortable with an old Soviet ally just off our border as Putin starts sniffing around again."
Give them big macs and violent, jingoist video games so that the population warms up to being part of the Americas, supported by american trade, and disinterested in any Moscow overtures.
What is this I don't even.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
I was reading the post-Soviet thread before hearing this news yesterday and immediately thought, "I wonder if we're a bit uncomfortable with an old Soviet ally just off our border as Putin starts sniffing around again."
Give them big macs and violent, jingoist video games so that the population warms up to being part of the Americas, supported by american trade, and disinterested in any Moscow overtures.
no, more like a shot across the bow of a certain Bush.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
I actually heard someone basically chastise the pope over this on NPR this morning... saying that this needs a political solution to their socialism. It wasn't anywhere near an overt attack or anything, but... yeah.
I actually heard someone basically chastise the pope over this on NPR this morning... saying that this needs a political solution to their socialism. It wasn't anywhere near an overt attack or anything, but... yeah.
Obama was extremely clever to couch this as a diplomatic victory for the Pope. That's going to tie the GOP in knots, especially when you consider the penchant for the good ol' boy contingent to go rogue in their attacks.
People kind of forget just how anti-Catholic the South is. It's faded somewhat, but I can remember driving through the mountains of North Carolina in the 90s and seeing billboards with messages like "Your Pope Will Burn in Hell!"
I don't think Cuba is the best or anything, but hell - we've got good relationships with a hell of a lot worse. Like Obama said last night - Vietnam and China are one-party communist countries too, and let's not even talk about some of our buddies in South / Central America or the theo/monarchies in the Middle East.
Normalize relationships, fire up the tourism industry, Big Macs for all. Nobody minds except the reactionaries who would argue against Obama if he said the sky is blue, and Cuban exiles who are going to vote for Jeb in 2016 regardless. Oh, and the olds who are still stuck in 1962, but it's nice to see some of their influence erode.
The right thing is the smart thing. I personally welcome this, and look forward to a nice cheap sun-soaked vacation spot that's not all touristy.
while with China we are more intertwined economically and have a healthier relationship with a China that is becoming more "capitalist" compared to decades ago.
Wait your argument is that comparing the normalization of economic relations with Cuba to China is incompatible because Us-China economic relations have already been normalized?
I mean sure i agree Vietnam is the more apt comparison but what the what?
while with China we are more intertwined economically and have a healthier relationship with a China that is becoming more "capitalist" compared to decades ago.
Wait your argument is that comparing the normalization of economic relations with Cuba to China is incompatible because Us-China economic relations have already been normalized?
I mean sure i agree Vietnam is the more apt comparison but what the what?
I'm not even sure why Vietnam is a more apt comparison. The Chinese directly killed quite a few Americans in the Korean War.
while with China we are more intertwined economically and have a healthier relationship with a China that is becoming more "capitalist" compared to decades ago.
Wait your argument is that comparing the normalization of economic relations with Cuba to China is incompatible because Us-China economic relations have already been normalized?
I mean sure i agree Vietnam is the more apt comparison but what the what?
Dealing with China is totally different, because there's a lot of money in it, you see.
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HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
When Nixon went to China, Mao was still alive and had just completed the purges of the Cultural Revolution. China didn't have a lot of money in it when we normalized relations with them; arguably, China has so much money in large part because we made them a major trading partner.
Cuba doesn't have a billion people to put to work manufacturing consumer goods for us, but there's no doubt that the island would become significantly more wealthy if we ended the embargo.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
When Nixon went to China, Mao was still alive and had just completed the purges of the Cultural Revolution. China didn't have a lot of money in it when we normalized relations with them; arguably, China has so much money in large part because we made them a major trading partner.
Cuba doesn't have a billion people to put to work manufacturing consumer goods for us, but there's no doubt that the island would become significantly more wealthy if we ended the embargo.
Hmmm...doesn't China also have a massive labor conditions problem and what not.
while with China we are more intertwined economically and have a healthier relationship with a China that is becoming more "capitalist" compared to decades ago.
Wait your argument is that comparing the normalization of economic relations with Cuba to China is incompatible because Us-China economic relations have already been normalized?
I mean sure i agree Vietnam is the more apt comparison but what the what?
I'm not even sure why Vietnam is a more apt comparison. The Chinese directly killed quite a few Americans in the Korean War.
Korea really is the "Forgotten War."
Because flipping on China was part of pushing the Sino-Soviet split and advancing our interests against Russia, as well as the sheer size of China making every dealing with it unique in its own way. They have more people than our entire hemisphere of the globe. Cuba is more like a couple Oklahoma's sitting off the Keys.
Meanwhile Vietnam is small, not of any specific strategic foreign policy interest, and we had an antagonistic relationship with their communist dictators which is more comparable than other potential examples of doing foreign policy with terrible people.
Cuba is more like a couple Oklahoma's sitting off the Keys.
Cuba was a strategic asset for the Soviet Union, that's why America was terrified when they tried putting missiles there for launch.
As someone pointed out yesterday (I think on NPR) is that Cuba has basically been subsidized all of its life, first by the USSR and then Venezuela. With oil now being in the toilet and putting a hurting on both those countries, this may easily be the most receptive Cuba has ever been to American aid and influence, at least since the end of the cold war.
And from a perfectly amoral standpoint, there is no downside here. Cuba is 90 miles off our shore, runs on a system of government/ideology that has already lost out globally that even if it perpetuates, won't be spreading anymore. Has humanitarian issues, but compared to some client states we currently have they are far from the worst and we have a greater chance of changing the culture/system there to one that is more amenable to our values since there is a strong connection there. The better our sales pitch now, the worse the one from Venezuela/Russia/whoever the next benefactor comes along sounds in a couple years.
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while with China we are more intertwined economically and have a healthier relationship with a China that is becoming more "capitalist" compared to decades ago.
Wait your argument is that comparing the normalization of economic relations with Cuba to China is incompatible because Us-China economic relations have already been normalized?
I mean sure i agree Vietnam is the more apt comparison but what the what?
I'm not even sure why Vietnam is a more apt comparison. The Chinese directly killed quite a few Americans in the Korean War.
Korea really is the "Forgotten War."
Because flipping on China was part of pushing the Sino-Soviet split and advancing our interests against Russia, as well as the sheer size of China making every dealing with it unique in its own way. They have more people than our entire hemisphere of the globe. Cuba is more like a couple Oklahoma's sitting off the Keys.
Meanwhile Vietnam is small, not of any specific strategic foreign policy interest, and we had an antagonistic relationship with their communist dictators which is more comparable than other potential examples of doing foreign policy with terrible people.
Minor correction: Vietnam is home to 90,000,000 people, making it one of Earths most populous nations.
Combined with their oil interests off the coast, I'd say that Vietnam could be a regional power and the US would be wise to approach them to balance against China just as we used China against the Soviets.
Cuba is more like a couple Oklahoma's sitting off the Keys.
Cuba was a strategic asset for the Soviet Union, that's why America was terrified when they tried putting missiles there for launch.
As someone pointed out yesterday (I think on NPR) is that Cuba has basically been subsidized all of its life, first by the USSR and then Venezuela. With oil now being in the toilet and putting a hurting on both those countries, this may easily be the most receptive Cuba has ever been to American aid and influence, at least since the end of the cold war.
And from a perfectly amoral standpoint, there is no downside here. Cuba is 90 miles off our shore, runs on a system of government/ideology that has already lost out globally that even if it perpetuates, won't be spreading anymore. Has humanitarian issues, but compared to some client states we currently have they are far from the worst and we have a greater chance of changing the culture/system there to one that is more amenable to our values since there is a strong connection there. The better our sales pitch now, the worse the one from Venezuela/Russia/whoever the next benefactor comes along sounds in a couple years.
Let's keep in mind Raul won't be around much longer. If we're on the ground floor when he dies we'll have considerably more say in the direction Cuba moves post Castros
You know...it does weird me out how casually some of you talk about what is basically colonization.
But whatever.
I'd use my eyeroll emoticon but it seems to have rolled away.
Sorry.
Guess I shouldn't state that I don't think American influence is a default good.
Wooo...go us. We gonna fix those guys right up.
Your basis assumes that the Cuban people have no agency to determine if they want or don't want something. Just because ISPs can run cable from Florida doesn't mean magically everyone speaks English and watches Two and a Half Men. It's trade. Cuba will benefit from having essential technologies and products that they haven't had the opportunity to really invest in, and Florida will benefit (eventually) by renewed trade and immegration(and probably also emigration) between the two shores.
If anything, it's more likely that Florida will become more Cuban than Cuba will become more Americanized.
Its a good thing if only for people who fled the country to play in the MLB can safely return and not be arrested. And not just the super popular players, but the lower double a guys.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
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these fucking guys
Who could have known
So our first act of diplomatic relations with Cuba is to declare war on them with our shitty ISPs?
/snark
What better way to deliver cholesterol than through a series of tubes.
Give them big macs and violent, jingoist video games so that the population warms up to being part of the Americas, supported by american trade, and disinterested in any Moscow overtures.
no, more like a shot across the bow of a certain Bush.
Obama was extremely clever to couch this as a diplomatic victory for the Pope. That's going to tie the GOP in knots, especially when you consider the penchant for the good ol' boy contingent to go rogue in their attacks.
People kind of forget just how anti-Catholic the South is. It's faded somewhat, but I can remember driving through the mountains of North Carolina in the 90s and seeing billboards with messages like "Your Pope Will Burn in Hell!"
Normalize relationships, fire up the tourism industry, Big Macs for all. Nobody minds except the reactionaries who would argue against Obama if he said the sky is blue, and Cuban exiles who are going to vote for Jeb in 2016 regardless. Oh, and the olds who are still stuck in 1962, but it's nice to see some of their influence erode.
The right thing is the smart thing. I personally welcome this, and look forward to a nice cheap sun-soaked vacation spot that's not all touristy.
Wait your argument is that comparing the normalization of economic relations with Cuba to China is incompatible because Us-China economic relations have already been normalized?
I mean sure i agree Vietnam is the more apt comparison but what the what?
giving them Time Warner cable will accomplish what the Bay of Pigs could not
I'm not even sure why Vietnam is a more apt comparison. The Chinese directly killed quite a few Americans in the Korean War.
Korea really is the "Forgotten War."
Dealing with China is totally different, because there's a lot of money in it, you see.
Cuba doesn't have a billion people to put to work manufacturing consumer goods for us, but there's no doubt that the island would become significantly more wealthy if we ended the embargo.
Hmmm...doesn't China also have a massive labor conditions problem and what not.
Well, I mean, really just about any other way than a series of tubes I guess
Because flipping on China was part of pushing the Sino-Soviet split and advancing our interests against Russia, as well as the sheer size of China making every dealing with it unique in its own way. They have more people than our entire hemisphere of the globe. Cuba is more like a couple Oklahoma's sitting off the Keys.
Meanwhile Vietnam is small, not of any specific strategic foreign policy interest, and we had an antagonistic relationship with their communist dictators which is more comparable than other potential examples of doing foreign policy with terrible people.
Cuba was a strategic asset for the Soviet Union, that's why America was terrified when they tried putting missiles there for launch.
As someone pointed out yesterday (I think on NPR) is that Cuba has basically been subsidized all of its life, first by the USSR and then Venezuela. With oil now being in the toilet and putting a hurting on both those countries, this may easily be the most receptive Cuba has ever been to American aid and influence, at least since the end of the cold war.
And from a perfectly amoral standpoint, there is no downside here. Cuba is 90 miles off our shore, runs on a system of government/ideology that has already lost out globally that even if it perpetuates, won't be spreading anymore. Has humanitarian issues, but compared to some client states we currently have they are far from the worst and we have a greater chance of changing the culture/system there to one that is more amenable to our values since there is a strong connection there. The better our sales pitch now, the worse the one from Venezuela/Russia/whoever the next benefactor comes along sounds in a couple years.
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THAT'S RIGHT FUCK YOU ALABAMA!
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But whatever.
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Minor correction: Vietnam is home to 90,000,000 people, making it one of Earths most populous nations.
Combined with their oil interests off the coast, I'd say that Vietnam could be a regional power and the US would be wise to approach them to balance against China just as we used China against the Soviets.
Once they spend days watching crappy adds on youtube and videos of kim's Kardashians arse the victory of democracy will be complete.
What, colonize Cuba?
Did it get oil?
Let's keep in mind Raul won't be around much longer. If we're on the ground floor when he dies we'll have considerably more say in the direction Cuba moves post Castros
Cuban Cafe Con Leche is glorious
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Cuban sandwiches were invented in Tampa.
You guys are the kings of stepping on jokes.
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I'd use my eyeroll emoticon but it seems to have rolled away.
Sorry.
Guess I shouldn't state that I don't think American influence is a default good.
Wooo...go us. We gonna fix those guys right up.
Stepping on jokes was invented in Tampa.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Your basis assumes that the Cuban people have no agency to determine if they want or don't want something. Just because ISPs can run cable from Florida doesn't mean magically everyone speaks English and watches Two and a Half Men. It's trade. Cuba will benefit from having essential technologies and products that they haven't had the opportunity to really invest in, and Florida will benefit (eventually) by renewed trade and immegration(and probably also emigration) between the two shores.
If anything, it's more likely that Florida will become more Cuban than Cuba will become more Americanized.
pleasepaypreacher.net