Shadows of Yharnam is probably one of my favorite boss fights in any Souls game. It felt like they finally got a multi-person boss fight right.
See, Shadows is probably my least favorite fight in Bloodborne, just because it felt like fighting glorified regular enemies to me, no joke intended since they are regular enemies later. I just never found any challenge in the fight. Parry katana guy, fireball guy basically does nothing if you just LOS him until you're ready to kill him and the 3rd guy is just a worse katana fighter than the other one and sometimes blows a flamethrower attack at you that's super telegraphed.
I dunno, it felt like they swung the difficulty back too far trying to avoid frustrating people the way O&S did, or Ruin Sentinels. I still think O&S is the best multi-enemy boss fight across the Souls games, but that's probably because it's the only one with real personality to me. Most of the other ones are just 3 ruin sentinel jailers or whatever.
Yeah, I can double dodge it to the side and but then when I come back in to L2 Ludwig her head it's too late. I just don't want to take forever standing well away from it hoping it will do the head slam. Its there a way to parry or stagger her? I'm guessing not since I tried that first time I faced her.
You can stagger her after hitting her head enough times and it will open up a visceral opportunity.
She gave me a lot of trouble, and honestly the thing I found most success with was circling to the side or behind and unloading Ludwig 2h R2s. Full charge for 1000+ damage per pop. After I started using that strat, the only real difficulty was when she starts lasering because if you get antsy and dodge too early you're a dead wo(man).
I had her down to maybe 3 more hits needed then she killed me with laser from full health. I fucking rage quit after that. Didn't even see it because the camera swung around when I was at her flank.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I think you're overestimating the differences in the engines. If you play Dark Souls with the DWGR, you're damn near as mobile as you are with dash steps in Bloodborne. And Artorias is still a fucking man no matter what.
No boss in Bloodborne had shit like Artorias' branching combos where you didn't know if he was going to triple flip on you or not. They all telegraph everything they do pretty clearly, and IMO don't have many surprises to offer.
I can agree you can't directly compare the two, but you can most definitely compare the level of challenge they give you in their respective games, and that's all I was really doing.
Hell, they straight up gave Cleric Beast some of Manus' attack combos and gap closers. I loved the homage.
Yeah, I can double dodge it to the side and but then when I come back in to L2 Ludwig her head it's too late. I just don't want to take forever standing well away from it hoping it will do the head slam. Its there a way to parry or stagger her? I'm guessing not since I tried that first time I faced her.
You can stagger her after hitting her head enough times and it will open up a visceral opportunity.
She gave me a lot of trouble, and honestly the thing I found most success with was circling to the side or behind and unloading Ludwig 2h R2s. Full charge for 1000+ damage per pop. After I started using that strat, the only real difficulty was when she starts lasering because if you get antsy and dodge too early you're a dead wo(man).
I had her down to maybe 3 more hits needed then she killed me with laser from full health. I fucking rage quit after that. Didn't even see it because the camera swung around when I was at her flank.
Down to less than 15% health and killed by a laser describes at least 3 or 4 different attempts of E, DotC for me, hah. I didn't get mad, I just rolled my eyes at myself for panicking and dodging too fast on the lasers. When you get into phase 3, you just have to really watch her and back off when she starts charging up, so that you can clearly see the tell for when you need to dodge the lasers.
Also, RE: Vicar, in that video you're fighting in front of her. That's not where you want to be IMO. I beat her my first try on NG and NG+ so I at least know what works for me, and that is to be behind her. Honestly if you just dash step around behind her you can get in several hits of free damage nearly at will. There's just too much going on in front of her to get much damage uptime standing there.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
It's absolutely a fair comparison. The mechanics are completely interchangeable because they're the same core game.
In a lot of ways, Bloodborne is simply Dark Souls combat engine with some cheats turned on. No carry weight, fast rolls only, armor doesn't impact your movement, no stats that affect iframes, etc.
Fast rolling with heavy armor is largely what breaks Dark Souls. That's basically what you get by default in Bloodborne. It makes a big difference.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
It's absolutely a fair comparison. The mechanics are completely interchangeable because they're the same core game.
In a lot of ways, Bloodborne is simply Dark Souls combat engine with some cheats turned on. No carry weight, fast rolls only, armor doesn't impact your movement, no stats that affect iframes, etc.
Fast rolling with heavy armor is largely what breaks Dark Souls. That's basically what you get by default in Bloodborne. It makes a big difference.
I agree to an extent, but I can't imagine they didn't design the bosses of Bloodborne to coincide with the fact that these "cheats" are enabled. Which as you said, makes a big difference.
It would be nice if they incorporated some of the BB stuff into future Dark Souls games though. Or whatever they do next. I like both styles of play equally, personally.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
I'm not saying they aren't designed well.
I'm saying that Bloodborne bosses are simply an evolution of Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 bosses, on every feasible level.
Some of them might not be "as difficult", but that fails to take into account how incredibly broken your character, and the tools you have at your disposal, really are, even for action game standards, not just Souls games in general.
And then some of them
Like Gehrman, most Hunter on Hunter fights, Father G first form without cheesing him, the Hunter in the Cathedral finale for the Elieen quest, BSB before learning his pattern.
ARE as difficult as something like the Artorias fight, or the Manus fight, WITH the ridiculous tools at your disposal.
Just that simple fact makes comparing Bloodborne to other Souls games a comparison that's not even a TINY bit fair at all, to either game.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
I'm not saying they aren't designed well.
I'm saying that Bloodborne bosses are simply an evolution of Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 bosses, on every feasible level.
Some of them might not be "as difficult", but that fails to take into account how incredibly broken your character, and the tools you have at your disposal, really are, even for action game standards, not just Souls games in general.
And then some of them
Like Gehrman, most Hunter on Hunter fights, Father G first form without cheesing him, the Hunter in the Cathedral finale for the Elieen quest, BSB before learning his pattern.
ARE as difficult as something like the Artorias fight, or the Manus fight, WITH the ridiculous tools at your disposal.
Just that simple fact makes comparing Bloodborne to other Souls games a comparison that's not even a TINY bit fair at all, to either game.
This is more or less what I was trying to say. So I think I just didn't glean that from your post. Maybe because I didn't read your original one.
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I was going to mention Artorias, but Josh got there first. He's far and away the best boss fight in any Souls game or Souls-alike to date. Fume Knight is up there as well.
None of the bosses in Bloodborne, while all very good, has reached the level of "HOLY SHIT" like Artorias did. I would say Bloodborne's bosses are more consistent, and good across the board....but none of them reached the high point of Artorias for me.
But really I only beat her after I used my bell and got jolly cooperation.
Amelia is a really good boss to co-op. One person gets her attention while the other goes for attacking her back.
Thanks, I'll check the video out. How do you initiate Co-op in that area? I thought the Cathedral zone didn't along summoning, at least it hasn't worked for me.
But really I only beat her after I used my bell and got jolly cooperation.
Amelia is a really good boss to co-op. One person gets her attention while the other goes for attacking her back.
Thanks, I'll check the video out. How do you initiate Co-op in that area? I thought the Cathedral zone didn't along summoning, at least it hasn't worked for me.
I usually ring the bell at the top of the Grand Cathedral steps. That usually works out pretty well.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
I'm not saying they aren't designed well.
I'm saying that Bloodborne bosses are simply an evolution of Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 bosses, on every feasible level.
Some of them might not be "as difficult", but that fails to take into account how incredibly broken your character, and the tools you have at your disposal, really are, even for action game standards, not just Souls games in general.
And then some of them
Like Gehrman, most Hunter on Hunter fights, Father G first form without cheesing him, the Hunter in the Cathedral finale for the Elieen quest, BSB before learning his pattern.
ARE as difficult as something like the Artorias fight, or the Manus fight, WITH the ridiculous tools at your disposal.
Just that simple fact makes comparing Bloodborne to other Souls games a comparison that's not even a TINY bit fair at all, to either game.
Boss difficulty discussion are largely pointless because of how different everybody's experiences are, but I have to say I definitely disagree that the fights you describe are anywhere close to Artorias or Manus. Both of those bosses, especially Artorias, have a level of unpredictability in their movesets that is just not matched in the fights you mention, IMO.
The 3rd phase of Father G I'd argue has a little bit of Flamelurker/Manus crazy aggression in there, but it's such a short part of the fight that the difficulty doesn't compare. The other ones you mention I thought were really really easy, especially considering they can all just be parried and their attacks are telegraphed like crazy.
Gehrman I didn't find difficult at all. He's got some anime speed and his scythe form was a bit hard to read at first(only because you can't get the weapon before fighting him so don't know the moveset), but he didn't present much challenge at all. Father G phases 1 and 2 are a cake walk. He gives you huge parry windows to visceral him, or you can just dash through his attacks and get free damage in, and depending on your weapon you can stagger lock him in the first two phases and just unload.
The hunter on hunter fights were largely cake walks too, the only one that ever really troubled me was the 3v1 in Unseen Village, and only insofar as I immediately recognized I needed to try to split them off at least a little. The one at the end of Eileen's quest I was expecting some monster based on what I'd heard, but he was just another dude to easily parry and visceral or just dash through and counter. The hunter fights are like fighting against players who are kind of bad at PvP but have guns that hit hard if you let them shoot you.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
I'm not saying they aren't designed well.
I'm saying that Bloodborne bosses are simply an evolution of Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 bosses, on every feasible level.
Some of them might not be "as difficult", but that fails to take into account how incredibly broken your character, and the tools you have at your disposal, really are, even for action game standards, not just Souls games in general.
And then some of them
Like Gehrman, most Hunter on Hunter fights, Father G first form without cheesing him, the Hunter in the Cathedral finale for the Elieen quest, BSB before learning his pattern.
ARE as difficult as something like the Artorias fight, or the Manus fight, WITH the ridiculous tools at your disposal.
Just that simple fact makes comparing Bloodborne to other Souls games a comparison that's not even a TINY bit fair at all, to either game.
Boss difficulty discussion are largely pointless because of how different everybody's experiences are, but I have to say I definitely disagree that the fights you describe are anywhere close to Artorias or Manus. Both of those bosses, especially Artorias, have a level of unpredictability in their movesets that is just not matched in the fights you mention, IMO.
The 3rd phase of Father G I'd argue has a little bit of Flamelurker/Manus crazy aggression in there, but it's such a short part of the fight that the difficulty doesn't compare. The other ones you mention I thought were really really easy, especially considering they can all just be parried and their attacks are telegraphed like crazy.
Gehrman I didn't find difficult at all. He's got some anime speed and his scythe form was a bit hard to read at first(only because you can't get the weapon before fighting him so don't know the moveset), but he didn't present much challenge at all. Father G phases 1 and 2 are a cake walk. He gives you huge parry windows to visceral him, or you can just dash through his attacks and get free damage in, and depending on your weapon you can stagger lock him in the first two phases and just unload.
The hunter on hunter fights were largely cake walks too, the only one that ever really troubled me was the 3v1 in Unseen Village, and only insofar as I immediately recognized I needed to try to split them off at least a little. The one at the end of Eileen's quest I was expecting some monster based on what I'd heard, but he was just another dude to easily parry and visceral or just dash through and counter. The hunter fights are like fighting against players who are kind of bad at PvP but have guns that hit hard if you let them shoot you.
You are better than me, then, because all those fights were hard as balls
did you just not run into the cathedral hunter's gun at all? Because that's what made that fight so brutal for me and it was way too unpredictable to be able to reliably dodge
I was going to mention Artorias, but Josh got there first. He's far and away the best boss fight in any Souls game or Souls-alike to date. Fume Knight is up there as well.
None of the bosses in Bloodborne, while all very good, has reached the level of "HOLY SHIT" like Artorias did. I would say Bloodborne's bosses are more consistent, and good across the board....but none of them reached the high point of Artorias for me.
Artorias, more than any boss in Dark Souls, takes advantage of your limitations, no matter how you decide to come at him.
Spells? stupidly high magic defense
Sword and Board? High stamina draining attacks and unblockables.
Dodge? Homing attacks that track and take advantage of Stamina limitations and roll distance.
It's hard for Bloodborne to re-create that feeling outside of a few choice situations, because alot of those character limitations are removed/buffed.
It gets to the point that the only way the bosses could be harder is if the game just blatently cheated and hit you, or warped hitboxes to the point of ridiculousness(LOOKIN AT YOU DARK SOULS 2).
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I'm not even talking about difficulty, I'm talking about the total experience. Hard != good for me, in an automatic sense. Hard CAN be good, and it can equally be bad.
Artorias was a beautiful mix of being ridiculously hard, but completely fair, hard to predict, dripping in lore, a legendary figure in the Dark Souls lore, a sad backstory. He's the total package, which makes him such an incredible boss. To date, he is From's best work (IMO) when it comes to building bosses.
I rang my bell right outside the lantern near the creepy dude and I think by the time I'd gotten to the main steps shortcut I had two people join in.
Oh, does it not matter where in an area you ring your bell?
I'm not entirely sure - but I range it at the top of the first steps near the campfire and was joined maybe 20 seconds later when I was sneaking up on the Scythe guy near the main stairs.
I got semi-bottomed last page, but TL;DR the bosses in Bloodborne are so much better than the boss design in Demon/Dark Souls it's not even funny and not even a fair comparison.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
I'm not saying they aren't designed well.
I'm saying that Bloodborne bosses are simply an evolution of Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 bosses, on every feasible level.
Some of them might not be "as difficult", but that fails to take into account how incredibly broken your character, and the tools you have at your disposal, really are, even for action game standards, not just Souls games in general.
And then some of them
Like Gehrman, most Hunter on Hunter fights, Father G first form without cheesing him, the Hunter in the Cathedral finale for the Elieen quest, BSB before learning his pattern.
ARE as difficult as something like the Artorias fight, or the Manus fight, WITH the ridiculous tools at your disposal.
Just that simple fact makes comparing Bloodborne to other Souls games a comparison that's not even a TINY bit fair at all, to either game.
Boss difficulty discussion are largely pointless because of how different everybody's experiences are, but I have to say I definitely disagree that the fights you describe are anywhere close to Artorias or Manus. Both of those bosses, especially Artorias, have a level of unpredictability in their movesets that is just not matched in the fights you mention, IMO.
The 3rd phase of Father G I'd argue has a little bit of Flamelurker/Manus crazy aggression in there, but it's such a short part of the fight that the difficulty doesn't compare. The other ones you mention I thought were really really easy, especially considering they can all just be parried and their attacks are telegraphed like crazy.
Gehrman I didn't find difficult at all. He's got some anime speed and his scythe form was a bit hard to read at first(only because you can't get the weapon before fighting him so don't know the moveset), but he didn't present much challenge at all. Father G phases 1 and 2 are a cake walk. He gives you huge parry windows to visceral him, or you can just dash through his attacks and get free damage in, and depending on your weapon you can stagger lock him in the first two phases and just unload.
The hunter on hunter fights were largely cake walks too, the only one that ever really troubled me was the 3v1 in Unseen Village, and only insofar as I immediately recognized I needed to try to split them off at least a little. The one at the end of Eileen's quest I was expecting some monster based on what I'd heard, but he was just another dude to easily parry and visceral or just dash through and counter. The hunter fights are like fighting against players who are kind of bad at PvP but have guns that hit hard if you let them shoot you.
Dirty Secret.
Artorias was hella predictable. His difficulty was in how small of a window you have to react to some of his attacks, and how hard they hit when they do actually hit you.
With Artorias if you fucked up you either died or lost 90% of your life bar.
His moveset however were pretty obvious(If you banged your head against him 40 odd times like I did)
Midrange he had is Stinger and the three variable flip smashes.
Long range was his leap. Shortrange he had the flip smashes along with sword combo's, and Sif's backflip evasion attack to create spacing.
I mean, I still think Artorias is the greatest single bossfight of all time, in the best game of all time.
But the fact that Bloodborne's bosses are all Artorias/Manus level of crafting(Or a little below it), while being difficult even with the tools at your disposal is just a testament to how good they really are and that it's truly an evolution.
did you just not run into the cathedral hunter's gun at all? Because that's what made that fight so brutal for me and it was way too unpredictable to be able to reliably dodge
I did. I just dodged it when he shot it. I got hit a couple times but it didn't kill me or anything. Just healed it off and got back to business.
Man that Eileen finale Hunter is super kicking my ass everytime I fight him.
If you're having a lot of trouble and can't do him straight up, just space him out and kill him with alternative methods. Throw poison knives at him until he's poisoned, and when he tricks to his blood weapon just use spacing to have him take free damage without being able to do anything to you. When he's in regular sword mode, bait him into attacking, dash through, and counter attack a few times, then back off again.
The hunters are just enemy players who aren't really good at PvP. Treat them like that.
Speaking of Artorias' tracking attacks, it's funny I haven't seen anybody complain about it in Bloodborne yet, but the tracking on attacks if you dodge too early is 100% present, in some instances worse than DS2's ever was. I'm fine with it, and I was fine with it in Dark Souls 2 as well. It just forces you to not dodge too early and that's fair in my mind. I learned my lesson on that against Artorias, who killed me more times than I want to admit with his overhead leaps.
I got kidnapped and thrown in to nightmare prison for the first time, fuck everything about that place. Many times running aimlessly in to the wrong direction later and many throat slits later I found the exit lantern and am now at the Lady Beast boss.
I didn't do much damage to her and died not much later.
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See, Shadows is probably my least favorite fight in Bloodborne, just because it felt like fighting glorified regular enemies to me, no joke intended since they are regular enemies later. I just never found any challenge in the fight. Parry katana guy, fireball guy basically does nothing if you just LOS him until you're ready to kill him and the 3rd guy is just a worse katana fighter than the other one and sometimes blows a flamethrower attack at you that's super telegraphed.
I dunno, it felt like they swung the difficulty back too far trying to avoid frustrating people the way O&S did, or Ruin Sentinels. I still think O&S is the best multi-enemy boss fight across the Souls games, but that's probably because it's the only one with real personality to me. Most of the other ones are just 3 ruin sentinel jailers or whatever.
I had her down to maybe 3 more hits needed then she killed me with laser from full health. I fucking rage quit after that. Didn't even see it because the camera swung around when I was at her flank.
Because the tools Bloodborne give you are vastly superior to the tools you have in Dark Souls, and any boss from Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 with the Bloodborne combat engine would be JOKE.
I'd say watch the video I just threw together for great advice..
But really I only beat her after I used my bell and got jolly cooperation.
Amelia is a really good boss to co-op. One person gets her attention while the other goes for attacking her back.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I don't think that's really a fair comparison. They are just designed differently for different mechanics between two games that have different, albeit somewhat similar, approaches. It would be like saying the bosses aren't designed well in Dark Souls because if you could somehow say plop them into MGR or DMC3 or something they'd be a joke. Yeah, they would be, but so what? They aren't in those games.
I think you're overestimating the differences in the engines. If you play Dark Souls with the DWGR, you're damn near as mobile as you are with dash steps in Bloodborne. And Artorias is still a fucking man no matter what.
No boss in Bloodborne had shit like Artorias' branching combos where you didn't know if he was going to triple flip on you or not. They all telegraph everything they do pretty clearly, and IMO don't have many surprises to offer.
I can agree you can't directly compare the two, but you can most definitely compare the level of challenge they give you in their respective games, and that's all I was really doing.
Hell, they straight up gave Cleric Beast some of Manus' attack combos and gap closers. I loved the homage.
Down to less than 15% health and killed by a laser describes at least 3 or 4 different attempts of E, DotC for me, hah. I didn't get mad, I just rolled my eyes at myself for panicking and dodging too fast on the lasers. When you get into phase 3, you just have to really watch her and back off when she starts charging up, so that you can clearly see the tell for when you need to dodge the lasers.
It's absolutely a fair comparison. The mechanics are completely interchangeable because they're the same core game.
In a lot of ways, Bloodborne is simply Dark Souls combat engine with some cheats turned on. No carry weight, fast rolls only, armor doesn't impact your movement, no stats that affect iframes, etc.
Fast rolling with heavy armor is largely what breaks Dark Souls. That's basically what you get by default in Bloodborne. It makes a big difference.
I agree to an extent, but I can't imagine they didn't design the bosses of Bloodborne to coincide with the fact that these "cheats" are enabled. Which as you said, makes a big difference.
It would be nice if they incorporated some of the BB stuff into future Dark Souls games though. Or whatever they do next. I like both styles of play equally, personally.
I'm not saying they aren't designed well.
I'm saying that Bloodborne bosses are simply an evolution of Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 bosses, on every feasible level.
Some of them might not be "as difficult", but that fails to take into account how incredibly broken your character, and the tools you have at your disposal, really are, even for action game standards, not just Souls games in general.
And then some of them
ARE as difficult as something like the Artorias fight, or the Manus fight, WITH the ridiculous tools at your disposal.
Just that simple fact makes comparing Bloodborne to other Souls games a comparison that's not even a TINY bit fair at all, to either game.
This is more or less what I was trying to say. So I think I just didn't glean that from your post. Maybe because I didn't read your original one.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
None of the bosses in Bloodborne, while all very good, has reached the level of "HOLY SHIT" like Artorias did. I would say Bloodborne's bosses are more consistent, and good across the board....but none of them reached the high point of Artorias for me.
Thanks, I'll check the video out. How do you initiate Co-op in that area? I thought the Cathedral zone didn't along summoning, at least it hasn't worked for me.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I usually ring the bell at the top of the Grand Cathedral steps. That usually works out pretty well.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Oh, does it not matter where in an area you ring your bell?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I'm not positive, but I think it has something to do with which gates are open.
Boss difficulty discussion are largely pointless because of how different everybody's experiences are, but I have to say I definitely disagree that the fights you describe are anywhere close to Artorias or Manus. Both of those bosses, especially Artorias, have a level of unpredictability in their movesets that is just not matched in the fights you mention, IMO.
The 3rd phase of Father G I'd argue has a little bit of Flamelurker/Manus crazy aggression in there, but it's such a short part of the fight that the difficulty doesn't compare. The other ones you mention I thought were really really easy, especially considering they can all just be parried and their attacks are telegraphed like crazy.
The hunter on hunter fights were largely cake walks too, the only one that ever really troubled me was the 3v1 in Unseen Village, and only insofar as I immediately recognized I needed to try to split them off at least a little. The one at the end of Eileen's quest I was expecting some monster based on what I'd heard, but he was just another dude to easily parry and visceral or just dash through and counter. The hunter fights are like fighting against players who are kind of bad at PvP but have guns that hit hard if you let them shoot you.
You are better than me, then, because all those fights were hard as balls
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Artorias, more than any boss in Dark Souls, takes advantage of your limitations, no matter how you decide to come at him.
Spells? stupidly high magic defense
Sword and Board? High stamina draining attacks and unblockables.
Dodge? Homing attacks that track and take advantage of Stamina limitations and roll distance.
It's hard for Bloodborne to re-create that feeling outside of a few choice situations, because alot of those character limitations are removed/buffed.
It gets to the point that the only way the bosses could be harder is if the game just blatently cheated and hit you, or warped hitboxes to the point of ridiculousness(LOOKIN AT YOU DARK SOULS 2).
Artorias was a beautiful mix of being ridiculously hard, but completely fair, hard to predict, dripping in lore, a legendary figure in the Dark Souls lore, a sad backstory. He's the total package, which makes him such an incredible boss. To date, he is From's best work (IMO) when it comes to building bosses.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I'm not entirely sure - but I range it at the top of the first steps near the campfire and was joined maybe 20 seconds later when I was sneaking up on the Scythe guy near the main stairs.
Dirty Secret.
Artorias was hella predictable. His difficulty was in how small of a window you have to react to some of his attacks, and how hard they hit when they do actually hit you.
With Artorias if you fucked up you either died or lost 90% of your life bar.
His moveset however were pretty obvious(If you banged your head against him 40 odd times like I did)
Midrange he had is Stinger and the three variable flip smashes.
Long range was his leap. Shortrange he had the flip smashes along with sword combo's, and Sif's backflip evasion attack to create spacing.
I mean, I still think Artorias is the greatest single bossfight of all time, in the best game of all time.
But the fact that Bloodborne's bosses are all Artorias/Manus level of crafting(Or a little below it), while being difficult even with the tools at your disposal is just a testament to how good they really are and that it's truly an evolution.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I did. I just dodged it when he shot it. I got hit a couple times but it didn't kill me or anything. Just healed it off and got back to business.
If you're having a lot of trouble and can't do him straight up, just space him out and kill him with alternative methods. Throw poison knives at him until he's poisoned, and when he tricks to his blood weapon just use spacing to have him take free damage without being able to do anything to you. When he's in regular sword mode, bait him into attacking, dash through, and counter attack a few times, then back off again.
The hunters are just enemy players who aren't really good at PvP. Treat them like that.
I didn't do much damage to her and died not much later.