I know this is kind of a dumb question but is it possible to drop too deep on squats? I'm doing the stronglifts program for the first time, and like the program said I started off super light (I'm only now back up to doing my body weight plus some extra), but the depth I've been getting has been literally as deep as I'm physically capable of - thighs coming down way past parallel, to about 45 degrees with the floor and touching my calves
I'm able to do it comfortably at this weight and it's not causing any pain. I just want to know if this is something I need to control more before I cross the two plate barrier or something
It could be an issue if going that deep causes your lower back to start rounding, which might be hard to detect just by feel. Maybe try to take a video from the side with your phone so you can take a look at your form?
I know for sure fact that the base of my spine rotates downward a little bit when I hit parallel and continues as I go past, though the curvature of it never becomes rounded I don't think
I'll get the little wife to take a video on Saturday, though (my phone can't do video)
Any advice for cutting down on rounding, outside of just not going as deep?
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KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
edited April 2015
The deeper you go, the more stress you put on the knee joint. So just watch how your knees are feeling and keep your back tight. Also, if you plan on competing, touching your calves is a red light on the lift.
Using a validated 3D nonlinear finite element model, detailed biomechanics of the entire joint in closed-kinetic-chain squat exercises are investigated at different flexion angles, weights in hands, femur-tibia orientations and coactivity in hamstrings. Predictions are in agreement with results of earlier studies. Estimation of small forces in cruciate ligaments advocates the use of squat exercises at all joint angles and external loads. In contrast, large contact stresses, especially at the patellofemoral joint, that approach cartilage failure threshold in compression suggest avoiding squatting at greater flexion angles, joint moments and weights in hands. Current results are helpful in comprehensive evaluation and design of effective exercise therapies and trainings with minimal risk to various components.
CONCLUSION: The data indicate that during squatting, patellofemoral joint stress increases as the knee flexion angle increases, and that the addition of external resistance further increases patellofemoral joint stress. These findings suggest that in order to limit patellofemoral joint stress during squatting activities, clinicians should consider limiting terminal joint flexion angles and resistance loads.
I know for sure fact that the base of my spine rotates downward a little bit when I hit parallel and continues as I go past, though the curvature of it never becomes rounded I don't think
I'll get the little wife to take a video on Saturday, though (my phone can't do video)
Any advice for cutting down on rounding, outside of just not going as deep?
Good warmup. Stretch hip flexors and glutes prior. Spend some time in the bottom squat position trying to keep your torso upright, try looking up a series of hip opener warm ups.
To touch on what Kako said, I'm a firm believer in deep, heavy squats. I believe working through the full range of motion can only strengthen the muscles, ligaments and tendons around the joint.
HOWEVER, if you have prior injury or issue, it may not be feasible to get as low as ass to the grass. So whatever depth (as close to parallel as possible) is what you can do. Stopping a squat short is going to be damaging to your knees as well, with even more quadriceps dominance and shear forces across the knee. Which I would say be probably corrected through lots of extra hamstring development if you did do half and quarter squats, but better to at least hit 90 degrees anyway.
But in Olympic lifting it's considered a good thing if you can leave a brown spot on the floor every time you squat to full depth.
diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
Both of those papers are looking at forces in the tib/fem and fem/pat joints, and unsurprisingly show that they increase nearer 90 deg knee flexion (important point: This is above parallel unless the shins are perfectly vertical). This is only a concern for people with musculoskeletal pathology and telling healthy people to avoid deep squats because of it is potentially harmful. Reversing the squat at 90 degree knee angle (the point of maximal fem/tib joint shear force) is more potentially injurious than going past 90 degrees whereupon shear forces decrease and compressive (those measured in the papers) reach their peak. The knee joints are strong in compression, but less so in shear, which is the kind of force that causes collateral ligament tears. Also, if you don't go past 90 you're not maximising glute or quad tension, so training effect for a given weight is reduced.
Here's a nice image:
Healthy people should squat as deep as possible while maintaining a neutral spine and knees in line with the feet.
This vid is a good place to start when learning how to hold a neutral spine:
Spinal flexion (whether extended to neutral or neutral to flexed) in the squat is never ok, because it causes anterior/posterior shifts in pressure within the lumbar disks under a near maximal axial load, carrying considerable risk for spine injury. Thankfully it is quite possible to avoid by improving ankle/hip mobility and core bracing strength.
The deckies are blatantly jealous and attempting to steal my gains by shrouding the gym on the car deck in a giant blue tarp. They claim it's because of the upcoming sprinkler system test but I know the terrible truth. They're all gain thieves out to get me but I showed them! I just went ahead and worked out in a giant blue tent today in defiance!
Ogad, I need more water.
In related news, Goblet Squats may not be taxing my legs at all but sweet baby jesus are they hitting weak spots in my core. I was begging for mercy by the end of today. I'm also pretty damn proud of myself because I originally started out doing dumbbell work so I now have a direct comparison and yeah, dem fucking gains yo. If I wasn't dying of thirst by the end of today I'd have let out a god damn Godzilla grade roar.
I also had a pretty lulzy moment at work today when the shipyard workers came asking for some big guys to help move a big chunk of steel pipe and I was like "let's just go see what it is." A few minutes later I had a strap on it so I had something not oily to grip and the workers and the Chief were looking at me like "this guy is gonna get hurt." But nope, I lifted that fucker up the stairs like it was nothing and at the top, one of the yard workers who is way bigger than me was just like "....I got to go to the gym."
Yeeeessssssssssssssssssss
If I knew lifting was gonna be this fun I'd have started years ago.
Dips were good. Right now I can manage two in a row. A better starting point for me than chin ups which was zero. I did kinda get a kink in my elbow, though. Nothing serious, probably over extended at the top or something.
Dips were good. Right now I can manage two in a row. A better starting point for me than chin ups which was zero. I did kinda get a kink in my elbow, though. Nothing serious, probably over extended at the top or something.
Nice.
Learned men of the swole thread, what are your thoughts on assisted dips in a situation such as this? I've seen people use resistance bands to get in more reps.
Guys, I hit a PB today. Pretty big one, I'm very excited.
Four flushes.
+8
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
So last Thursday I was doing Overhead Squats, and I had a really terrible time. I was working with an empty 45 lb. bar, because I still can't get the form right. The gym coach told me lifting in running shoes is messing up my squat, and to get Crossfit shoes. Fair enough.
I then moved to the conditioning half of the workout, which was Hanging Squat Snatches and Box Jumps. Halfway through the second round I couldn't take it anymore, and midway through a jump I lost power in my right leg and crashed into the box. I'm pretty sure I pulled some combination of groin and glute during the OHS/Squat Snatches. I don't know if this is a general flexibility problem (my groin muscle felt really hard, and was making a cracking noise as I went deeper into my squats), or a matter of not stretching out (I do show up 15 minutes early to stretch out, but that's apparently not enough).
So now all weekend my groin has been tender. I'm wondering if I should skip a week at the gym? Just Monday? Or maybe go Monday, but avoid running/squatting/jumping?
I don't know that it's a specific problem with Crossfit, so much as it is my personal problem with Overhead Squats, which I have never really been able to do.
Doing something as potentially dangerous as box jumps to fatigue for conditioning seems like a really bad idea
It wasn't general exhaustion, I think I pulled my groin and/or glute.
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KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
Groin strains are tenacious and annoying injuries. I'd skip anything strenuous for at least a few days until it feels better. Something like walking on a slight incline would be good to keep it from getting stiff. You could probably do some upper body stuff, but it would be better to do machine work so you don't involve your lower body.
Don't give the Cult anymore money. Get quality lifting shoes. Risto, VS, Adidas(wide range of prices), Nike.
Reebok can suck it. I'm actually okay with Rogue. When "conditioning" just swap shoes
So doing Hang Snatches and Box Jumps for conditioning is the opposite purpose of those exercises, as they're power movement. 1-3 reps is ideal, 5 is tops. With lots of rest time to recover.
diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
Also, separate issue but sort of relevant: The first time I did OHS (months ago), my right arm became paralyzed for a little bit, and then after recovering, I had no feeling in my arm/hand/thumb. Now whenever I do OHS, I don't get the paralysis, but I do lose feeling in my right thumb for a short while. Will this stop happening with time as I get used to the movement?
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KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
OK. If you get any sort of numbness or tingling during or after lifting weights, you need to stop. Pushing through it just makes it worse and will lead to bigger problems down the road.
Sounds like you've aggravated/injured your median carpal nerve. Stop doing OHS and any other exercises that have you flexing your wrists until it's better. Ice it and work on your wrist mobility. And look at getting some wrist wraps for OHS and really watch the form - knuckles should be pointing at the ceiling.
Between this and the groin strain, it seems like you're going too hard too fast. Ramp up slowly on this stuff. Starting out with an injury isn't ideal for long term health.
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
OK. If you get any sort of numbness or tingling during or after lifting weights, you need to stop. Pushing through it just makes it worse and will lead to bigger problems down the road.
Sounds like you've aggravated/injured your median carpal nerve. Stop doing OHS and any other exercises that have you flexing your wrists until it's better. Ice it and work on your wrist mobility. And look at getting some wrist wraps for OHS and really watch the form - knuckles should be pointing at the ceiling.
Between this and the groin strain, it seems like you're going too hard too fast. Ramp up slowly on this stuff. Starting out with an injury isn't ideal for long term health.
So this wouldn't be a shoulder issue, so much as a wrist one?
I don't disagree about going too hard in general, but for OHS I've just been lifting an empty bar (45 lb.), so I think it's probably a form issue.
I don't know that it's a specific problem with Crossfit, so much as it is my personal problem with Overhead Squats, which I have never really been able to do.
Doing snatches for conditioning when you don't have sufficient mobility for overhead squats and haven't been properly coached, being told to buy expensive proprietary gear and then injuring yourself doing another inappropriate exercise for conditioning is a very, very specific Crossfit problem.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to make Crossfit feel bad. It's awful, and it's why you got injured. It isn't your fault, you were coached by someone who had no business coaching.
+7
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
I don't know that it's a specific problem with Crossfit, so much as it is my personal problem with Overhead Squats, which I have never really been able to do.
Doing snatches for conditioning when you don't have sufficient mobility for overhead squats and haven't been properly coached, being told to buy expensive proprietary gear and then injuring yourself doing another inappropriate exercise for conditioning is a very, very specific Crossfit problem.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to make Crossfit feel bad. It's awful, and it's why you got injured. It isn't your fault, you were coached by someone who had no business coaching.
If I continue to lift, would investing in lifting shoes be worthwhile, even if they aren't Crossfit brand shoes?
I don't know that it's a specific problem with Crossfit, so much as it is my personal problem with Overhead Squats, which I have never really been able to do.
Doing snatches for conditioning when you don't have sufficient mobility for overhead squats and haven't been properly coached, being told to buy expensive proprietary gear and then injuring yourself doing another inappropriate exercise for conditioning is a very, very specific Crossfit problem.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to make Crossfit feel bad. It's awful, and it's why you got injured. It isn't your fault, you were coached by someone who had no business coaching.
SORRY I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER ALL MY MONEY AND MUSCLES
diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
If your serious about doing deadlifts and squats and anything Olympic, yes.
You can get away with getting chuck taylors though. Really for the basic shoe you want one that doesn't give when you're loaded with weight. Pretty much a flat solid sole.
Running shoes have all that cushioning in the heel that flexes back and forth under load, making a person unstable when you're moving weight around.
If your serious about doing deadlifts and squats and anything Olympic, yes.
You can get away with getting chuck taylors though. Really for the basic shoe you want one that doesn't give when you're loaded with weight. Pretty much a flat solid sole.
Running shoes have all that cushioning in the heel that flexes back and forth under load, making a person unstable when you're moving weight around.
I don't know that it's a specific problem with Crossfit, so much as it is my personal problem with Overhead Squats, which I have never really been able to do.
Doing snatches for conditioning when you don't have sufficient mobility for overhead squats and haven't been properly coached, being told to buy expensive proprietary gear and then injuring yourself doing another inappropriate exercise for conditioning is a very, very specific Crossfit problem.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to make Crossfit feel bad. It's awful, and it's why you got injured. It isn't your fault, you were coached by someone who had no business coaching.
If I continue to lift, would investing in lifting shoes be worthwhile, even if they aren't Crossfit brand shoes?
If your serious about doing deadlifts and squats and anything Olympic, yes.
You can get away with getting chuck taylors though. Really for the basic shoe you want one that doesn't give when you're loaded with weight. Pretty much a flat solid sole.
Running shoes have all that cushioning in the heel that flexes back and forth under load, making a person unstable when you're moving weight around.
I enjoy lifting in Vibram 5-fingers myself.
Is there something you can lift and run in?
I don't think so, no. Those are very different movements. You want a solid heel for lifting. Even if it's flat, it needs to be solid.
The plus side is that running shoes last you a couple of years (I guess? maybe months?) and lifting shoes last for decades.
Posts
Maybe refine that to "do 3 sets of dips to failure every gym day". Then you know dam well what you need to be doing
Plan: Do three sets of dips to failure every x days
I'm able to do it comfortably at this weight and it's not causing any pain. I just want to know if this is something I need to control more before I cross the two plate barrier or something
I'll get the little wife to take a video on Saturday, though (my phone can't do video)
Any advice for cutting down on rounding, outside of just not going as deep?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19308868?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11949662?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Good warmup. Stretch hip flexors and glutes prior. Spend some time in the bottom squat position trying to keep your torso upright, try looking up a series of hip opener warm ups.
To touch on what Kako said, I'm a firm believer in deep, heavy squats. I believe working through the full range of motion can only strengthen the muscles, ligaments and tendons around the joint.
HOWEVER, if you have prior injury or issue, it may not be feasible to get as low as ass to the grass. So whatever depth (as close to parallel as possible) is what you can do. Stopping a squat short is going to be damaging to your knees as well, with even more quadriceps dominance and shear forces across the knee. Which I would say be probably corrected through lots of extra hamstring development if you did do half and quarter squats, but better to at least hit 90 degrees anyway.
But in Olympic lifting it's considered a good thing if you can leave a brown spot on the floor every time you squat to full depth.
Here's a nice image:
Healthy people should squat as deep as possible while maintaining a neutral spine and knees in line with the feet.
This vid is a good place to start when learning how to hold a neutral spine:
Spinal flexion (whether extended to neutral or neutral to flexed) in the squat is never ok, because it causes anterior/posterior shifts in pressure within the lumbar disks under a near maximal axial load, carrying considerable risk for spine injury. Thankfully it is quite possible to avoid by improving ankle/hip mobility and core bracing strength.
p.s. This is the site I nicked the pic from: http://www.aaronswansonpt.com/the-deep-squat-part-1-the-good-the-bad-the-not-so-ugly/
All good stuff there.
In related news, Goblet Squats may not be taxing my legs at all but sweet baby jesus are they hitting weak spots in my core. I was begging for mercy by the end of today. I'm also pretty damn proud of myself because I originally started out doing dumbbell work so I now have a direct comparison and yeah, dem fucking gains yo. If I wasn't dying of thirst by the end of today I'd have let out a god damn Godzilla grade roar.
I also had a pretty lulzy moment at work today when the shipyard workers came asking for some big guys to help move a big chunk of steel pipe and I was like "let's just go see what it is." A few minutes later I had a strap on it so I had something not oily to grip and the workers and the Chief were looking at me like "this guy is gonna get hurt." But nope, I lifted that fucker up the stairs like it was nothing and at the top, one of the yard workers who is way bigger than me was just like "....I got to go to the gym."
Yeeeessssssssssssssssssss
If I knew lifting was gonna be this fun I'd have started years ago.
honestly, I'm slightly inebriated but the kind of shit that gets posted in this thread, there is some valuable shit across the spectrum
One doesn't need to be drunk to appreciate the value Jimmy brings to the thread
Nice.
Learned men of the swole thread, what are your thoughts on assisted dips in a situation such as this? I've seen people use resistance bands to get in more reps.
Squatted 290x3 which is a PR.
Benched 215x2 which is my old 5RM before a minor shoulder injury.
Both felt steady and went up fast, so I did 5x10 back/shoulder accessories... I even got a sweet pump!
You talk clean and bomb hospitals, so I speak with the foulest mouth possible
I wouldn't ever admit you goons know what you're talking about while sober
Jk
Went 6/6 (2 attempts per lift) with 315/235/405 at 166 bodyweight. My lifting partner hit 405/245/475 at 175 bodyweight.
It was a blast!
But good bench! Looked pretty easy
I hear ya there.
Four flushes.
I then moved to the conditioning half of the workout, which was Hanging Squat Snatches and Box Jumps. Halfway through the second round I couldn't take it anymore, and midway through a jump I lost power in my right leg and crashed into the box. I'm pretty sure I pulled some combination of groin and glute during the OHS/Squat Snatches. I don't know if this is a general flexibility problem (my groin muscle felt really hard, and was making a cracking noise as I went deeper into my squats), or a matter of not stretching out (I do show up 15 minutes early to stretch out, but that's apparently not enough).
So now all weekend my groin has been tender. I'm wondering if I should skip a week at the gym? Just Monday? Or maybe go Monday, but avoid running/squatting/jumping?
I don't know that it's a specific problem with Crossfit, so much as it is my personal problem with Overhead Squats, which I have never really been able to do.
It wasn't general exhaustion, I think I pulled my groin and/or glute.
rest, ice/heat, contrast showers, Motrin, absorbine
Don't give the Cult anymore money. Get quality lifting shoes. Risto, VS, Adidas(wide range of prices), Nike.
Reebok can suck it. I'm actually okay with Rogue. When "conditioning" just swap shoes
So doing Hang Snatches and Box Jumps for conditioning is the opposite purpose of those exercises, as they're power movement. 1-3 reps is ideal, 5 is tops. With lots of rest time to recover.
Sounds like you've aggravated/injured your median carpal nerve. Stop doing OHS and any other exercises that have you flexing your wrists until it's better. Ice it and work on your wrist mobility. And look at getting some wrist wraps for OHS and really watch the form - knuckles should be pointing at the ceiling.
Between this and the groin strain, it seems like you're going too hard too fast. Ramp up slowly on this stuff. Starting out with an injury isn't ideal for long term health.
So this wouldn't be a shoulder issue, so much as a wrist one?
I don't disagree about going too hard in general, but for OHS I've just been lifting an empty bar (45 lb.), so I think it's probably a form issue.
For comparison my Back Squat is 205 lb.
Doing snatches for conditioning when you don't have sufficient mobility for overhead squats and haven't been properly coached, being told to buy expensive proprietary gear and then injuring yourself doing another inappropriate exercise for conditioning is a very, very specific Crossfit problem.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to make Crossfit feel bad. It's awful, and it's why you got injured. It isn't your fault, you were coached by someone who had no business coaching.
If I continue to lift, would investing in lifting shoes be worthwhile, even if they aren't Crossfit brand shoes?
SORRY I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER ALL MY MONEY AND MUSCLES
You can get away with getting chuck taylors though. Really for the basic shoe you want one that doesn't give when you're loaded with weight. Pretty much a flat solid sole.
Running shoes have all that cushioning in the heel that flexes back and forth under load, making a person unstable when you're moving weight around.
I enjoy lifting in Vibram 5-fingers myself.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Is there something you can lift and run in?
Absolutely
I don't think so, no. Those are very different movements. You want a solid heel for lifting. Even if it's flat, it needs to be solid.
The plus side is that running shoes last you a couple of years (I guess? maybe months?) and lifting shoes last for decades.