I like the behind-the-scenes speculation SF Debris builds up for the fate of recurring extra-with-lines Lieutenant Carey.
Early on his single biggest role is unsuccessfully competing with a main character for the role of Chief Engineer. Then through out the first two or three years he's in the background and occasionally has something to say.
After Seven comes aboard, you don't see him at all...unless the plot involves alternate realities or time travel.
So the theory put forth is that the writing staff thought Lieutenant Carey had been killed off at some point. "I thought you killed him!" "No, wasn't that you?"
What do they do after they realise this? By having him turn up five episodes before the finale, his character expanded a little, and then he's Redshirted on the away mission and Janeway is all melancholy about it at the end. And also he's the final explicit redshirt of the series.
Amazing
RMS Oceanic on
+1
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
How long was Neelix on Voyager? Did they ever manage to get rid of him?
I only ever watched the first season and then I had this, like, moment of clarity.
I feel like eventually I'm going to try watching Voyager
This may or may not be a bad idea
I will go to bat for a lot of things that I think have value despite being hit or miss but I legitimately see no value in Voyager at all. Its very best installments are just kind of third-generation xeroxes of much better Star Trek stories and its worst installments plumb new depths.
Actually, I guess I could recommend it in that context, if you like terrible things ironically. Some people do! But seven 26-episode seasons is a lot of terrible hours to like ironically.
The standard playlist of good Voyager is basically half of the Doctor-centered episodes and half of the Seven of Nine/Borg-centered episodes, and that's about it. :-P Whereas, I can heartily recommend the 2-7 seasons of both TNG and DS9. First seasons of all Star Trek shows are crap except TOS. :-P
Neelix was also one of the worst examples of, fuck i don't know the term for this, some TV Tropes nerd probably has a name for this
where a show keeps ramming this obnoxious as fuck character in the audience's face with absolutely no awareness that the fans hate the character and find them terrible and they keep trying and trying to make the character popular for no reason
like maybe the production like the actor involved and they want to keep him on the show or someone high up likes the character but for whatever reason they think the character is essential so they keep on keeping on with this shitty character and it never ever works
there's "Neelix episodes" in every season of Voyager and they're always awful and exist for no reason
Voyager had a really hard time figuring out which characters and actors were actually good and featuring them
like for example, they kept doing episodes about Harry Kim
because
i don't know, they hate themselves
The TVTropes name is actually pretty appropriate: The Wesley.
Voyager never really gets good, but like most Trek shows it picks up in season 3.
Nothing interesting happens in the first two seasons that I can recall. You can watch S1E1/S1E2 to get the premise of the show, and then jump straight to S3E25 (Worst Case Scenario) and not miss much.
I always recommend a pit stop at "The Thaw" in series 2. It's pretty much a TOS script, but they have fun with it and the villain is pretty good.
Voyager has the distinction of having the literal worst two episodes of Star Trek ever for any series
It has the worst episode ever for bullshit techno babble nonsense that makes no fucking sense (Threshold, where Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and turns into a newt but then he got better)
and the worst episode ever for being offensive and racist and completely insulting to all native people (Tattoo, where Chakotay learns that Native Americans were cave dwelling primitives until aliens gave them language and intelligence)
+3
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Neelix was also one of the worst examples of, fuck i don't know the term for this, some TV Tropes nerd probably has a name for this
where a show keeps ramming this obnoxious as fuck character in the audience's face with absolutely no awareness that the fans hate the character and find them terrible and they keep trying and trying to make the character popular for no reason
like maybe the production like the actor involved and they want to keep him on the show or someone high up likes the character but for whatever reason they think the character is essential so they keep on keeping on with this shitty character and it never ever works
there's "Neelix episodes" in every season of Voyager and they're always awful and exist for no reason
Voyager had a really hard time figuring out which characters and actors were actually good and featuring them
like for example, they kept doing episodes about Harry Kim
because
i don't know, they hate themselves
The TVTropes name is actually pretty appropriate: The Wesley.
SHUT UP, WESLEY
SHUT UP, NEELIX
SHUT UP UH
shit who do I hate on DS9
I hate Winn but you're supposed to and I do not hate her in the same way
We're probably gonna skip the first couple seasons of TNG if we get around to watching it
Just finished DS9 last week, by the way
Now I can have opinions on it!
DS9 before TNG? Heresy!
(Nah, it's fine.)
I've seen most of the SUPER IMPORTANT episodes on TNG by total chance. I've seen Best of Both Worlds. I've seen All Good Things. And a smattering of others that fill in the gaps. The only thing that I missed, coming to DS9 first, was I had no idea who Gowron was, and didn't get the characterization of O'brien and Worf I should have had.
Neelix was also one of the worst examples of, fuck i don't know the term for this, some TV Tropes nerd probably has a name for this
where a show keeps ramming this obnoxious as fuck character in the audience's face with absolutely no awareness that the fans hate the character and find them terrible and they keep trying and trying to make the character popular for no reason
like maybe the production like the actor involved and they want to keep him on the show or someone high up likes the character but for whatever reason they think the character is essential so they keep on keeping on with this shitty character and it never ever works
there's "Neelix episodes" in every season of Voyager and they're always awful and exist for no reason
Voyager had a really hard time figuring out which characters and actors were actually good and featuring them
like for example, they kept doing episodes about Harry Kim
because
i don't know, they hate themselves
The TVTropes name is actually pretty appropriate: The Wesley.
SHUT UP, WESLEY
SHUT UP, NEELIX
SHUT UP UH
shit who do I hate on DS9
I hate Winn but you're supposed to and I do not hate her in the same way
see you're supposed to hate Winn because she's genuinely an awful person and she gets challenged on this and it's like, something that the show makes a point of
DS9 had the best villains
+4
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Voyager has the distinction of having the literal worst two episodes of Star Trek ever for any series
It has the worst episode ever for bullshit techno babble nonsense that makes no fucking sense (Threshold, where Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and turns into a newt but then he got better)
and the worst episode ever for being offensive and racist and completely insulting to all native people (Tattoo, where Chakotay learns that Native Americans were cave dwelling primitives until aliens gave them language and intelligence)
I saw that. It was somehow worse than Genesis.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Neelix was also one of the worst examples of, fuck i don't know the term for this, some TV Tropes nerd probably has a name for this
where a show keeps ramming this obnoxious as fuck character in the audience's face with absolutely no awareness that the fans hate the character and find them terrible and they keep trying and trying to make the character popular for no reason
like maybe the production like the actor involved and they want to keep him on the show or someone high up likes the character but for whatever reason they think the character is essential so they keep on keeping on with this shitty character and it never ever works
there's "Neelix episodes" in every season of Voyager and they're always awful and exist for no reason
Voyager had a really hard time figuring out which characters and actors were actually good and featuring them
like for example, they kept doing episodes about Harry Kim
because
i don't know, they hate themselves
in Voyager's specific case I'm sure it had something to do with they were probably used to a decade+ of Star Trek fans complaining about everything that they just kind of tuned out the legitimate complaints along with everything else. And in their minds, it was the best-rated show on the network so clearly they were doing something right, yes?
Of course, the problem is that even awful fan nerds are sometimes right, and UPN was the network that featured Homeboys in Outer Space.
I wonder, in the age of social media, are there any modern shows that are so wildly dismissive of the people who watch them? It seems like Voyager2015 either could not happen or their twitter dude would be working a lot of overtime.
Neelix was also one of the worst examples of, fuck i don't know the term for this, some TV Tropes nerd probably has a name for this
where a show keeps ramming this obnoxious as fuck character in the audience's face with absolutely no awareness that the fans hate the character and find them terrible and they keep trying and trying to make the character popular for no reason
like maybe the production like the actor involved and they want to keep him on the show or someone high up likes the character but for whatever reason they think the character is essential so they keep on keeping on with this shitty character and it never ever works
there's "Neelix episodes" in every season of Voyager and they're always awful and exist for no reason
Voyager had a really hard time figuring out which characters and actors were actually good and featuring them
like for example, they kept doing episodes about Harry Kim
because
i don't know, they hate themselves
The TVTropes name is actually pretty appropriate: The Wesley.
SHUT UP, WESLEY
SHUT UP, NEELIX
SHUT UP UH
shit who do I hate on DS9
I hate Winn but you're supposed to and I do not hate her in the same way
Winn is a delicious scenery chewer not someone you cringe everytime they're on screen
The thing that made me never really want to start watching Voyager is that the few episodes I saw I never really took to any of the characters, except maybe the Doctor. Everyone else was either totally bland, a shitwit like fucking Neelix, or simply not interesting. I guess Seven of Nine was a decent character as well, but two decent characters out of, what, nine, just isn't enough to make me come back. Start watching TNG and it's packed with groovy folks, even in the shitty seasons. DS9 is the same way. At its worst you have PatStew, Riker macking on babes, Worf being surly, Data being Spock and so forth, or Sisko declaiming like it's the end of the world, O'Brien and Bashir dicking around, Kira being awesome and the bad guys being genuinely compelling characters in their own right.
Jeri Ryan (Seven of Nine) turned out to be a better actress than anybody expected her to be.
Putting her on the show just seemed like cynical fan service at the time. Oh, you have a model in a silver skintight catsuit wandering around the ship?
They never had the intra-crew tension that the show really needed until her. The Maquis and Starfleet never acted like enemies. It was too much kumbaya and good ship lollipop. But then they put a Borg on the ship and everybody is suspicious of her...
Also, there was one specific episode where they uploaded the holographic doctor's programming into Seven's borg implants, so Jeri Ryan had to emulate Robert Picardo's cadence and mannerisms. She was uncanny. It was hilarious and fantastic.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I hear arguments for TOS, TNG, and DS9 as being the best series. My personal favorite is DS9, but I can definitely see how the other two shows can be a contender. In the Pale Moonlight and The Visitor are the standout episodes, but I think I just find the characters and their story arcs much more interesting on DS9. Gul Dukat and Kai Winn are probably some of my favorite villains of all time.
Every time Kai Winn showed up, I wanted to punch her in the face, and then I realized "Hey, that's REALLY good acting!" Unless she's like that in real life... I'm sure she's not...
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
We're probably gonna skip the first couple seasons of TNG if we get around to watching it
Just finished DS9 last week, by the way
Now I can have opinions on it!
Duet, The Visitor or In the Pale Moonlight
All three of those were good, for different reasons. The Visitor was probably my least favorite of the three, because while it was really good, it also didn't hit the themes that I really think I enjoyed in DS9. I think Duet was my favorite, honestly - I really enjoyed it, as it was one of the first episodes that had a Cardassian who was a person instead of a one-dimensional SPACE NAZI
Jeri Ryan (Seven of Nine) turned out to be a better actress than anybody expected her to be.
Putting her on the show just seemed like cynical fan service at the time. Oh, you have a model in a silver skintight catsuit wandering around the ship?
They never had the intra-crew tension that the show really needed until her. The Maquis and Starfleet never acted like enemies. It was too much kumbaya and good ship lollipop. But then they put a Borg on the ship and everybody is suspicious of her...
Also, there was one specific episode where they uploaded the holographic doctor's programming into Seven's borg implants, so Jeri Ryan had to emulate Robert Picardo's cadence and mannerisms. She was uncanny. It was hilarious and fantastic.
The thing that made me never really want to start watching Voyager is that the few episodes I saw I never really took to any of the characters, except maybe the Doctor. Everyone else was either totally bland, a shitwit like fucking Neelix, or simply not interesting. I guess Seven of Nine was a decent character as well, but two decent characters out of, what, nine, just isn't enough to make me come back. Start watching TNG and it's packed with groovy folks, even in the shitty seasons. DS9 is the same way. At its worst you have PatStew, Riker macking on babes, Worf being surly, Data being Spock and so forth, or Sisko declaiming like it's the end of the world, O'Brien and Bashir dicking around, Kira being awesome and the bad guys being genuinely compelling characters in their own right.
And my favourite Klingon ever: Martok.
then there's Enterprise where they're ALL that level of boring. Like their charatcers are one line summaries
Archer: dickhead, likes water polo
engineer: southern accent
Vulcan: sexy massages
uhhhh who else was there again?
oh black dude
asian lady who talks or something
neelix-lite doctor
Neelix was also one of the worst examples of, fuck i don't know the term for this, some TV Tropes nerd probably has a name for this
where a show keeps ramming this obnoxious as fuck character in the audience's face with absolutely no awareness that the fans hate the character and find them terrible and they keep trying and trying to make the character popular for no reason
like maybe the production like the actor involved and they want to keep him on the show or someone high up likes the character but for whatever reason they think the character is essential so they keep on keeping on with this shitty character and it never ever works
there's "Neelix episodes" in every season of Voyager and they're always awful and exist for no reason
Voyager had a really hard time figuring out which characters and actors were actually good and featuring them
like for example, they kept doing episodes about Harry Kim
because
i don't know, they hate themselves
in Voyager's specific case I'm sure it had something to do with they were probably used to a decade+ of Star Trek fans complaining about everything that they just kind of tuned out the legitimate complaints along with everything else. And in their minds, it was the best-rated show on the network so clearly they were doing something right, yes?
Of course, the problem is that even awful fan nerds are sometimes right, and UPN was the network that featured Homeboys in Outer Space.
I wonder, in the age of social media, are there any modern shows that are so wildly dismissive of the people who watch them? It seems like Voyager2015 either could not happen or their twitter dude would be working a lot of overtime.
yeah around the time of DS9, all the core people of Star Trek kinda crystallized and just did their own thing regardless of what fans thought
I don't think nowadays that kind of thinking works, shows are too in tune with their communities now, for good or for ill
Voyager has the distinction of having the literal worst two episodes of Star Trek ever for any series
It has the worst episode ever for bullshit techno babble nonsense that makes no fucking sense (Threshold, where Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and turns into a newt but then he got better)
and the worst episode ever for being offensive and racist and completely insulting to all native people (Tattoo, where Chakotay learns that Native Americans were cave dwelling primitives until aliens gave them language and intelligence)
This discussion dislodged a later episode in my memory where White Man's Burden rides again: Natural Law. In which a primitive species is encased in a force field to protect them from being invaded, and of course their more advanced neighbours who live on the same planet - a precursor to Dear Doctor? - has less than benevolent intent so Voyager restores the status quo.
Voyager has the distinction of having the literal worst two episodes of Star Trek ever for any series
It has the worst episode ever for bullshit techno babble nonsense that makes no fucking sense (Threshold, where Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and turns into a newt but then he got better)
and the worst episode ever for being offensive and racist and completely insulting to all native people (Tattoo, where Chakotay learns that Native Americans were cave dwelling primitives until aliens gave them language and intelligence)
TNG's "Genesis" (where the crew starts de-evolving into animals because their introns got activated) was almost as bad as Threshold.
...but not quite.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
my wife isn't bringing up the fact that our 1st anniversary was last week with her co-workers
because they'll be all like "ooooh what did you guys do, what did he buy you"
and the answer is like
we went out to the Keg and uh... nothing?
we don't do gifts
that's not a part of our relationship
and i get that's not for everybody and that's fine
but there's no way for her to say that without them acting like animals
Why couldn't she simply day "we went out"? I mean, it's true. If they press on the gift thing, she could then follow up with "eh, we didn't do that this year," or, more forcefully, "we don't do that." I mean, who cares? I guess I am not getting this whole OH MAN OTHER PEOPLE ARE SUCH STRANGE ALIEN BEINGS WITH THEIR WAYS kick that chat is on right now
We've got a poly, a bi boy, and a trans girl talking about relationships
of course the tone is gonna be I DO NOT GROK THE PEOPLE OF PLANET EARTH
A poly, a bi boy, and a trans girl walk into a bar.
Voyager has the distinction of having the literal worst two episodes of Star Trek ever for any series
It has the worst episode ever for bullshit techno babble nonsense that makes no fucking sense (Threshold, where Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and turns into a newt but then he got better)
and the worst episode ever for being offensive and racist and completely insulting to all native people (Tattoo, where Chakotay learns that Native Americans were cave dwelling primitives until aliens gave them language and intelligence)
TNG's "Genesis" (where the crew starts de-evolving into animals because their introns got activated) was almost as bad as Threshold.
We're probably gonna skip the first couple seasons of TNG if we get around to watching it
Just finished DS9 last week, by the way
Now I can have opinions on it!
Duet, The Visitor or In the Pale Moonlight
All three of those were good, for different reasons. The Visitor was probably my least favorite of the three, because while it was really good, it also didn't hit the themes that I really think I enjoyed in DS9. I think Duet was my favorite, honestly - I really enjoyed it, as it was one of the first episodes that had a Cardassian who was a person instead of a one-dimensional SPACE NAZI
the irony of which, Duet is literally based on a story about a Nazi
+4
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
I hear arguments for TOS, TNG, and DS9 as being the best series. My personal favorite is DS9, but I can definitely see how the other two shows can be a contender. In the Pale Moonlight and The Visitor are the standout episodes, but I think I just find the characters and their story arcs much more interesting on DS9. Gul Dukat and Kai Winn are probably some of my favorite villains of all time.
Every time Kai Winn showed up, I wanted to punch her in the face, and then I realized "Hey, that's REALLY good acting!" Unless she's like that in real life... I'm sure she's not...
@Regina Fong pointed out in the Star Trek thread that she's from Alabama. So you can just replace "Walk with the Prophets" with "Aww bless your heart" as what she says, mentally, and realize she's probably just playing a space-version of an archetype she's familiar with.
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Early on his single biggest role is unsuccessfully competing with a main character for the role of Chief Engineer. Then through out the first two or three years he's in the background and occasionally has something to say.
After Seven comes aboard, you don't see him at all...unless the plot involves alternate realities or time travel.
So the theory put forth is that the writing staff thought Lieutenant Carey had been killed off at some point. "I thought you killed him!" "No, wasn't that you?"
What do they do after they realise this? By having him turn up five episodes before the finale, his character expanded a little, and then he's Redshirted on the away mission and Janeway is all melancholy about it at the end. And also he's the final explicit redshirt of the series.
Amazing
We're probably gonna skip the first couple seasons of TNG if we get around to watching it
Just finished DS9 last week, by the way
Now I can have opinions on it!
is no Pony, is Vlad
This is a game where they allegedly removed a very big minigame involving massaging girls for the US and European release...
i'm a monster.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
The TVTropes name is actually pretty appropriate: The Wesley.
DS9 before TNG? Heresy!
(Nah, it's fine.)
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I always recommend a pit stop at "The Thaw" in series 2. It's pretty much a TOS script, but they have fun with it and the villain is pretty good.
It has the worst episode ever for bullshit techno babble nonsense that makes no fucking sense (Threshold, where Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and turns into a newt but then he got better)
and the worst episode ever for being offensive and racist and completely insulting to all native people (Tattoo, where Chakotay learns that Native Americans were cave dwelling primitives until aliens gave them language and intelligence)
SHUT UP, WESLEY
SHUT UP, NEELIX
SHUT UP UH
shit who do I hate on DS9
I hate Winn but you're supposed to and I do not hate her in the same way
Duet, The Visitor or In the Pale Moonlight
good call. the difference between S2 and S3 is pretty amazing
but, uhh, the first episode of season 3 in particular might be your personal kryptonite. bad-science trigger warnings up ins.
is not Pony
I've seen most of the SUPER IMPORTANT episodes on TNG by total chance. I've seen Best of Both Worlds. I've seen All Good Things. And a smattering of others that fill in the gaps. The only thing that I missed, coming to DS9 first, was I had no idea who Gowron was, and didn't get the characterization of O'brien and Worf I should have had.
see you're supposed to hate Winn because she's genuinely an awful person and she gets challenged on this and it's like, something that the show makes a point of
DS9 had the best villains
I saw that. It was somehow worse than Genesis.
in Voyager's specific case I'm sure it had something to do with they were probably used to a decade+ of Star Trek fans complaining about everything that they just kind of tuned out the legitimate complaints along with everything else. And in their minds, it was the best-rated show on the network so clearly they were doing something right, yes?
Of course, the problem is that even awful fan nerds are sometimes right, and UPN was the network that featured Homeboys in Outer Space.
I wonder, in the age of social media, are there any modern shows that are so wildly dismissive of the people who watch them? It seems like Voyager2015 either could not happen or their twitter dude would be working a lot of overtime.
Winn is a delicious scenery chewer not someone you cringe everytime they're on screen
In the Pale Moonlight for Most Divisive Episode of Star Trek
And my favourite Klingon ever: Martok.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Putting her on the show just seemed like cynical fan service at the time. Oh, you have a model in a silver skintight catsuit wandering around the ship?
They never had the intra-crew tension that the show really needed until her. The Maquis and Starfleet never acted like enemies. It was too much kumbaya and good ship lollipop. But then they put a Borg on the ship and everybody is suspicious of her...
Also, there was one specific episode where they uploaded the holographic doctor's programming into Seven's borg implants, so Jeri Ryan had to emulate Robert Picardo's cadence and mannerisms. She was uncanny. It was hilarious and fantastic.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
And what is even better Ethan Phillips knew this and played it up at times.
He literally had a penis on his face.
Every time Kai Winn showed up, I wanted to punch her in the face, and then I realized "Hey, that's REALLY good acting!" Unless she's like that in real life... I'm sure she's not...
All three of those were good, for different reasons. The Visitor was probably my least favorite of the three, because while it was really good, it also didn't hit the themes that I really think I enjoyed in DS9. I think Duet was my favorite, honestly - I really enjoyed it, as it was one of the first episodes that had a Cardassian who was a person instead of a one-dimensional SPACE NAZI
she was good on Leverage as well
I saw Genesis and Threshold I AM READY
Shit.
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
then there's Enterprise where they're ALL that level of boring. Like their charatcers are one line summaries
Archer: dickhead, likes water polo
engineer: southern accent
Vulcan: sexy massages
uhhhh who else was there again?
oh black dude
asian lady who talks or something
neelix-lite doctor
yeah around the time of DS9, all the core people of Star Trek kinda crystallized and just did their own thing regardless of what fans thought
I don't think nowadays that kind of thinking works, shows are too in tune with their communities now, for good or for ill
It has something to do with airline penis.
This discussion dislodged a later episode in my memory where White Man's Burden rides again: Natural Law. In which a primitive species is encased in a force field to protect them from being invaded, and of course their more advanced neighbours who live on the same planet - a precursor to Dear Doctor? - has less than benevolent intent so Voyager restores the status quo.
TNG's "Genesis" (where the crew starts de-evolving into animals because their introns got activated) was almost as bad as Threshold.
...but not quite.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
A poly, a bi boy, and a trans girl walk into a bar.
A few of them say "owwwww!"
that was what the 4th time Troi got mind-raped?
the irony of which, Duet is literally based on a story about a Nazi
@Regina Fong pointed out in the Star Trek thread that she's from Alabama. So you can just replace "Walk with the Prophets" with "Aww bless your heart" as what she says, mentally, and realize she's probably just playing a space-version of an archetype she's familiar with.