Right, we covered that as well. You guys opined - many times - that the behavior is disrespectful and tactless, but were not able to explain why. And that just led me to believe that it was a shitty attempt to justify jealousy and insecurity - by bringing it into the realm of societal standards rather than personal and subjective ones.
Why should the burden be on them to say why it is disrespectful? It seems to be the more common perception that it is. Should you not be the ones to answer why it should not be seen that way? It seems to me that identifying that there are other women around who are not actively telling you that they are in a relationship would be the "not crazy" thing to do as opposed to trying to bed down someone who has told you they are not available.
Why is calling someone a shit eating bitch in front of their old grandmother seen as disrespectful? Because she's offended by it? Because it's seen as rude? Why is that? Does it mean the grandmother is an unrealistically insecure and sensitive person with no sense of reality? No, it doesn't.
Why would I get offended if someone was hitting on my SO after she clearly stated she was with someone? Because I find it offensive. You can try and call that stance stupid all you want and chalk it up to someone being possessive or insecure, but you have presented nothing to back up your argument.
If I get annoyed at you flirting with my SO after she's made it clear she's with me, and handle it in a mature manner (IE talk with her or you or both depending on the situation) then you should respect that if the situation comes up again.
I'm not saying don't be flirty... some people just are. But if you're talking with someone and have the full intention to nail them at the first chance you can get, you should not be surprised if that persons SO gets a bit annoyed with your constant attentions.
Sure, if my SO is being very receptive, there's a bigger problem going on there than just you, and that would be between me and her to discuss, but having you butting in at every chance would not be helping.
tl;dr
why can't someone be both offended at you hitting on their SO and still be as secure in their relationship as can reasonably be expected?
Hurr. All that's here is ege constructing my hypotheticals where he doesn't have to care about party X, which almost certainly don't exist in such a simplistic sense - or - are incredibly unwise, and well, unkind, in a literal sense.
When you hit on someone in a relationship, you are trying to break them up.
I am not. For one thing, it is not my intention to sleep with the girl. I am flirting because it makes our interaction more fun, and in this scenario she feels that way as well. Your argument is that I should stop hitting on her because it makes the boyfriend feel bad, even though it makes her feel good. I don't buy that.
Like I've said, if you have no actual sexual or romantic intentions, you're not hitting on her. Flirting with != hitting on. I personally don't care about flirting; people flirt all the time and it's fun.
For another thing, suppose that I was trying to break them up. How is this ultimately a bad thing? Yes, I don't have the boyfriend's best interest in mind, but I have her best interest (in my opinion of course) in mind. I am doing him a disfavor, but I am doing her a favor by offering her a choice. Why is this a bad thing? You may argue that it is a bad thing because it is based on a selfish desire to get the girl, but how can you conclude such a thing? Maybe it is because I know her to be a wonderful person and I honestly believe she deserves a better guy. And yeah, suggesting that I am a better guy than the boyfriend might be insulting to the boyfriend, but he does have a chance to prove me wrong. If he can't, yes, I am a better guy. If he can, I was wrong and I'm fine with that; I'll simply move on.
It's a bad thing because you're not respecting their relationship. A relationship does not automatically deserve respect, but they don't automatically deserve disrespect either. I would argue that the polite, sensible, not assholish thing to do is default to respecting their relationship. Relationships in general exist because the people like each other and want to be with each other. If you disrespect someone's relationship by hitting on them, odds are they're not going to have fun; it's a fine line between testing the waters and ruining someone's day by being a persistent asshole, as Irene said.
Besides, in that situation, the boyfriend does have a valid reason for not liking what's going on, and he's perfectly justified in saying "hey, I don't like it when you hit on my girlfriend, could you back off please?" if you're not getting the message when she says she's in a relationship.
You can argue "but what if the boyfriend is an asshole" or "but what if I think she likes me more" or "but what if" etc etc, but each of those is a completely different situation. Yes, there are some cases where there might be a valid reason to attempt to break people up. Such reasons do not include "because I want her too."
And really, you harp on MrMister for breaking up someone's relationship and then you say:
Maybe it is because I know her to be a wonderful person and I honestly believe she deserves a better guy.
If he does it out of concern for his friend and that makes him an asshole, then you doing it out of belief that you're the better guy would make you a conceited asshole.
I am not. For one thing, it is not my intention to sleep with the girl. I am flirting because it makes our interaction more fun, and in this scenario she feels that way as well. Your argument is that I should stop hitting on her because it makes the boyfriend feel bad, even though it makes her feel good. I don't buy that.
For another thing, suppose that I was trying to break them up. How is this ultimately a bad thing? Yes, I don't have the boyfriend's best interest in mind, but I have her best interest (in my opinion of course) in mind. I am doing him a disfavor, but I am doing her a favor by offering her a choice. Why is this a bad thing? You may argue that it is a bad thing because it is based on a selfish desire to get the girl, but how can you conclude such a thing? Maybe it is because I know her to be a wonderful person and I honestly believe she deserves a better guy. And yeah, suggesting that I am a better guy than the boyfriend might be insulting to the boyfriend, but he does have a chance to prove me wrong. If he can't, yes, I am a better guy. If he can, I was wrong and I'm fine with that; I'll simply move on.
The first is not their problem, it's your problem for continually arguing something that isn't being discussed. As was mentioned several times the topic is not about lighthearted banter with no intention other than conversation, it is about conversing with the other party for the sole intent of engaging in some sort of relationship, be that sexual or romantic.
As for the second?
Why is it a bad thing to try and break them up?
Sure, maybe the SO is an abusive manipulative twat and it would be damned good to get them apart.
Or maybe you know nothing about their relationship and you think the So is all magical rainbows and fairy dust and their life would be absolutely perfect if only they saw the light and were with you instead.
Both are just as likely in my (admittedly) anecdotal experience.
So you are potentially just as likely to be a total scumbag in peoples eyes as a knight in shining armor (and anything in between), so why would you come in with the atitude that their relationship means exactly fuck all?
Why should the burden be on them to say why it is disrespectful?
Because the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
It seems to be the more common perception that it is.
Do you have numbers? No? I see.
Should you not be the ones to answer why it should not be seen that way?
We have been. Try reading the thread.
tl;dr
why can't someone be both offended at you hitting on their SO and still be as secure in their relationship as can reasonably be expected?
What rational* reason do they have to be offended? The only one coming close so far is that by hitting on their girlfriend with the intention of sleeping with her or "stealing" her or whatever, you are suggesting that you are a better guy.
However, that in and of itself is not offensive. If you are really smart, and someone comes to you and says, "I am smarter than you", will you be offended and demand they stop? Or will you go, "okay, then let's have a battle of wits"? If you are insecure in your intelligence, you'll think the guy is being rude and tactless. If you're secure in your intelligence, you'll see it as a challenge, perhaps even a fun one, and demand you settle the score.
The boyfriend, who has been in a relationship with her, has so far had plenty of chance to demonstrate his qualities. In the time of flirting, my qualities are challenging his. If the girl decides her boyfriend is the better person she'll stay with her. If she decides I'm better, she may break up and pursue something with me. In the latter scenario the boyfriend, if he truly cares for the girl, should be happy for her because she is off with a better man. If not, he is just a selfish prick who is out for his own good and his own good only.
See what I did there?
*both me and feral have argued that rational reasons are the only acceptable reasons in debate, because emotional reasons are highly subjective.
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t: evil multifarious
It's a bad thing because you're not respecting their relationship. A relationship does not automatically deserve respect, but they don't automatically deserve disrespect either. I would argue that the polite, sensible, not assholish thing to do is default to respecting their relationship. Relationships in general exist because the people like each other and want to be with each other. If you disrespect someone's relationship by hitting on them, odds are they're not going to have fun; it's a fine line between testing the waters and ruining someone's day by being a persistent asshole, as Irene said.
First, we are not talking about being a persistent asshole. I've already said that if she doesn't want me to hit on her, I won't.
Second, about why relationships exist and the "odds"; you are making a huge generalization without numbers to back you up. There are plenty - plenty - of relationships out there where the involved parties stay together because they are too complacent to break up. Does this mean they won't want to break up when someone better comes along? No. You would have me not give them that chance by putting the boyfriend's feelings above a) what I want b) what I think the girl deserves, and c) the possibility that the girl might get into a relationship with someone she likes more, not necessarily in that order.
So, there are a lot of reasons why relationships exist. Yeah, it is reasonable to claim that the underlying reason is that the people involved like each other. But this is not a reason for you to not hit on them, because the fact that they like each other does not mean they are unable to like another person, and will be unwilling to get out of the relationship to pursue a better option.
You can argue "but what if the boyfriend is an asshole" or "but what if I think she likes me more" or "but what if" etc etc, but each of those is a completely different situation. Yes, there are some cases where there might be a valid reason to attempt to break people up. Such reasons do not include "because I want her too."
I am not attempting to break up anyone. Their breaking up is a byproduct of the situation, not the goal.
And really, you harp on MrMister for breaking up someone's relationship and then you say:
Maybe it is because I know her to be a wonderful person and I honestly believe she deserves a better guy.
If he does it out of concern for his friend and that makes him an asshole, then you doing it out of belief that you're the better guy would make you a conceited asshole.
I am not believing I am the better guy. I mean, I think there is a possibility that I may be better - after all I don't know the boyfriend, and honestly does it make one a conceited asshole to think he may be better than someone else out there?
I am simply presenting myself to the girl, and it is up to her to make that judgment. To decide who she would rather be with.
You are saying I should not even do that, because apparently it is wrong to present people in relationships with choices regarding potential partners.
Choices are bad! We should monopolize on our significant others! If we eliminate their choices of potential partners by demanding said partners stop flirting with them, then our SOs will be more likely to stay with us! And we should use emotional blackmail against said flirters in an attempt to pressure them to stop pursuing our mates, and if that doesn't work we should claim their behavior is rude in order to put societal pressure on them! Hurrah for looking after ourselves and our own interests only, without considering the possibility that the flirter may indeed be a better guy and we should be happy for our SO if they decide to dump us and hit it off with them instead!
This is basically the brunt of you guys' mindset.
...
Fuck, you assholes are posting faster than I can respond. Where is Feral when I need him.
Meanwhile in the woods...
The leopard stood still and watched as his prey gulped mouthfuls of fresh, clear spring water. It was completely oblivious to Feral's presence. It raised its head, sniffed the air. Feral smiled. He was clever, you see, planting himself behind a bush downwind from the deer. As the deer bent its head down to drink some more, Feral slowly started shifting slowly, making himself flat against the ground, readying his fine, thick muscles for the leap...
Can we please, please move on from this? If not, that's alright, and you guys are free to rip me a new one, but honestly this has been inane for a few pages now. It's pretty much "the girlfriend should be shooting it down/it's disrespectful/it's not disrespectful" since the beginning. I understand that this is what this place is all about, but this conversation has become a Moebius Thread.
Can we please, please move on from this? If not, that's alright, and you guys are free to rip me a new one, but honestly this has been inane for a few pages now. It's pretty much "the girlfriend should be shooting it down/it's disrespectful/it's not disrespectful" since the beginning. I understand that this is what this place is all about, but this conversation has become a Moebius Thread.
If you are really smart, and someone comes to you and says, "I am smarter than you", will you be offended and demand they stop? Or will you go, "okay, then let's have a battle of wits"? If you are insecure in your intelligence, you'll think the guy is being rude and tactless. If you're secure in your intelligence, you'll see it as a challenge, perhaps even a fun one, and demand you settle the score.
This isn't how people work. If someone comes up to you and says "I'm smarter than you," they're being fucking rude. It doesn't matter if they are or not. You don't go up to someone and say that. You're going to be offended if you're dumber than him, because hey, he's pointing out a fact that didn't need to be pointed out and making you feel stupid for apparently no reason except self-aggrandizement, and if you're smarter than him he's misrepresenting you and being an arrogant twat. It is automatically rude and tactless to walk up to someone and say "I am smarter than you." I hope you weren't being completely serious with that example because my god that demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of common decency.
The boyfriend, who has been in a relationship with her, has so far had plenty of chance to demonstrate his qualities. In the time of flirting, my qualities are challenging his. If the girl decides her boyfriend is the better person she'll stay with her. If she decides I'm better, she may break up and pursue something with me. In the latter scenario the boyfriend, if he truly cares for the girl, should be happy for her because she is off with a better man. If not, he is just a selfish prick who is out for his own good and his own good only.
Your qualities are challenging his? The hell is this, a duel? Are you a stag locking horns with other males to assert your dominance? If they are in a good relationship and there's no reason for them to break up beside your interference, then interfering out of self interest is an asshole move. Sure you might be better. There's always someone better. That doesn't give you the right to break up their relationship.
It's a bad thing because you're not respecting their relationship. A relationship does not automatically deserve respect, but they don't automatically deserve disrespect either. I would argue that the polite, sensible, not assholish thing to do is default to respecting their relationship. Relationships in general exist because the people like each other and want to be with each other. If you disrespect someone's relationship by hitting on them, odds are they're not going to have fun; it's a fine line between testing the waters and ruining someone's day by being a persistent asshole, as Irene said.
First, we are not talking about being a persistent asshole. I've already said that if she doesn't want me to hit on her, I won't.
Second, about why relationships exist and the "odds"; you are making a huge generalization without numbers to back you up. There are plenty - plenty - of relationships out there where the involved parties stay together because they are too complacent to break up. Does this mean they won't want to break up when someone better comes along? No. You would have me not give them that chance by putting the boyfriend's feelings above a) what I want b) what I think the girl deserves, and c) the possibility that the girl might get into a relationship with someone she likes more, not necessarily in that order.
So, there are a lot of reasons why relationships exist. Yeah, it is reasonable to claim that the underlying reason is that the people involved like each other. But this is not a reason for you to not hit on them, because the fact that they like each other does not mean they are unable to like another person, and will be unwilling to get out of the relationship to pursue a better option.
Do you really think that anywhere close the majority of relationships are so dysfunctional that they should be broken up? Really? Is that what you think?
You can argue "but what if the boyfriend is an asshole" or "but what if I think she likes me more" or "but what if" etc etc, but each of those is a completely different situation. Yes, there are some cases where there might be a valid reason to attempt to break people up. Such reasons do not include "because I want her too."
I am not attempting to break up anyone. Their breaking up is a byproduct of the situation, not the goal.
It doesn't matter. You are going to fuck up their relationship if you are successful. The consequence of your action is the disruption or dissolution of their relationship.
And really, you harp on MrMister for breaking up someone's relationship and then you say:
Maybe it is because I know her to be a wonderful person and I honestly believe she deserves a better guy.
If he does it out of concern for his friend and that makes him an asshole, then you doing it out of belief that you're the better guy would make you a conceited asshole.
I am not believing I am the better guy. I mean, I think there is a possibility that I may be better - after all I don't know the boyfriend, and honestly does it make one a conceited asshole to think he may be better than someone else out there?
I am simply presenting myself to the girl, and it is up to her to make that judgment. To decide who she would rather be with.
You are saying I should not even do that, because apparently it is wrong to present people in relationships with choices regarding potential partners.
Choices are bad! We should monopolize on our significant others! If we eliminate their choices of potential partners by demanding said partners stop flirting with them, then our SOs will be more likely to stay with us! And we should use emotional blackmail against said flirters in an attempt to pressure them to stop pursuing our mates, and if that doesn't work we should claim their behavior is rude in order to put societal pressure on them! Hurrah for looking after ourselves and our own interests only, without considering the possibility that the flirter may indeed be a better guy and we should be happy for our SO if they decide to dump us and hit it off with them instead!
This is basically the brunt of you guys' mindset.
Precisely because you don't know him, you are being a jerk. You're assuming that you're potentially better than the boyfriend and that she should give you the time of day. It's arrogant.
There are so many things wrong with what you're saying that I am going to have list them numerically.
1) You are being disingenuous. You are not some enlightened soul going out and blessing women with choice. You are acting on your self interest. You don't approach a woman thinking "I'm going to provide her with a choice," you are approaching her thinking "I want her."
2) Choice is not necessarily a good thing. For every anecdotal imaginary case you can come up with where a girl would welcome a possible alternative mate, I can come up with one where an individual interfering in the relationship is destructive and harmful. You're not automatically doing something good by presenting yourself as an alternative. It is unbelievably, monumentally arrogant to believe that every time you present yourself to a woman, you are offering her a positive option for her relationship. The happiness of a woman's life does not grow proportionally to the number of men she feels attracted to; sometimes it can be quite the opposite.
What if you're actually a terrible alternative but you charm her into thinking otherwise? What if you're ruining an existing relationship for what ends up being a brief, painful, empty experience? Interfering in someone's relationship is not a neutral act; it is aggressive and disruptive. The incredible presumption you are making by assuming that there is no way your act can have negative consequences is simply astounding.
3) People do not function logically. Emotions do not function logically. The girl may not make her choice logically. She may choose on the spur of the moment, and make the wrong choice. You are not offering some sort of branching logic path with fully determinate possibilities. You are opening up choices that are bad just as much as you are opening up choices that are good, and you have absolutely no way of knowing which is the case! You could be wrecking something wonderful just as easily as you could be providing an escape from something boring and suffocating. So you should default to respecting the existing relationship unless you have compelling reasons to do otherwise.
4) Finally, you never explained how MrMister breaking up a relationship with no self interest and nothing but the best intentions for his friend is somehow worse than you breaking up a relationship based heavily on your own self interest and opinion of your quality and compatability with the person. In the context of the question that you were responding to, you were not simply presenting yourself. You had specifically said "and so what if I did want to break them up?"
I understand that this is what this place is all about, but this conversation has become a Moebius Thread.
Hahaha, welcome to D&D ;-)
Anyway, new topic. Lemme see... How about couples activities? Does one of you usually get his/her way for what to do in your joint spare time? For example, I love going to the opera, but my boyfriend hates opera, and so we never go to the opera.
Can we please, please move on from this? If not, that's alright, and you guys are free to rip me a new one, but honestly this has been inane for a few pages now. It's pretty much "the girlfriend should be shooting it down/it's disrespectful/it's not disrespectful" since the beginning. I understand that this is what this place is all about, but this conversation has become a Moebius Thread.
Sure. What do you want to talk about?
Anything I brought up earlier, or anything else. I realize this is essentially derailing, but in an argument which is entirely, absolutely subjective it seems silly to make hundreds of posts arguing about the right answer.
I understand that this is what this place is all about, but this conversation has become a Moebius Thread.
Hahaha, welcome to D&D ;-)
Anyway, new topic. Lemme see... How about couples activities? Does one of you usually get his/her way for what to do in your joint spare time? For example, I love going to the opera, but my boyfriend hates opera, and so we never go to the opera.
Discuss.
That doesn't seem fair. Though it doesn't always work out, I try to stay 50/50 with stuff like that. If we do something I like, maybe next time I let him choose.
But I also don't force the bf into things he doesn't really can't stand. Which unfortunately includes watching sports on TV.
That doesn't seem fair. Though it doesn't always work out, I try to stay 50/50 with stuff like that. If we do something I like, maybe next time I let him choose.
But I also don't force the bf into things he doesn't really can't stand. Which unfortunately includes watching sports on TV.
Ah well, I was just giving one example. I can be pretty recalcitrant myself. Like when he was in a band, I would avoid going to his gigs if at all possible. I guess we're pretty 50/50 for being jerks to each other ;-)
I like having my own separate pursuits and I like it when my significant other has their own pursuits. Usually my significant others and I have enough shared interests that on the relatively rare occasions that one of us wants to do something that the other can't stand we're comfortable just doing it independently. That said, I'll at least try to appreciate my SO's interests, so I'll usually at least try them on for size.
Like in your situation, Irene, if I wanted to go to the opera and my SO didn't, I'd just go to the opera on my own. No big deal.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I like having my own separate pursuits and I like it when my significant other has their own pursuits.
I'll take it a step farther and say that I'm actually actively suspicious of people who don't have their own friends and pursuits. It sets off alarms that perhaps I am to be their hobby.
I like having my own separate pursuits and I like it when my significant other has their own pursuits.
I'll take it a step farther and say that I'm actually actively suspicious of people who don't have their own friends and pursuits. It sets off alarms that perhaps I am to be their hobby.
The same friends thing can be a bit of an off point, since for me, ideally my SO would like all my friends and vice versa and we'd all get along great... but it's by no means a requirement.
As for the hobbies however, I agree 100%. I see no reason why people should be forced into doing things they do not like to do (Opera's, TV sports, girl/guy movies, etc). It may be nice to do these things with your SO sometimes, but it should never be used as a bargaining chip (EX: I watched the game with you last week so you must go to this play with me, or if you watch/go to such and such no sex).
I think you should certainly try to take interest in your partners activities, but ultimately it's better if the 2 parties do things they enjoy, it's just great when you can share some activities that both enjoy.
I don't see any problem with turn-about on the things that the other doesn't enjoy as much. You just do it in a nicer way - "We rented a comedy last week so now you can choose a horror or anime' (my missus is the one who wants the horror and anime ;-))
I've been married a few years and we've picked up a few interests off each other. Much more than I'd have expected.
Having more friends in common would be nice. Mostly we just have separate friends, though perhaps that's because we're different nationalities.
ege feel free to respond to my massive post by PM if you want to continue the discussion without further disrupting shanks' thread
You bet I will.
You can feel to PM me if you wish to further debate this, but I won't counter point your last and derail this again. Suffice it to say I feel it's becoming a circular debate. I don't feel you are presenting points that can be said as valid and are shooting down the opposing viewpoints by claiming they do not bring anything to the table. And by "most" I meant in this thread. You can feel free to count if you want :P
Back onto a non debated for several pages topic.
PDA, everyone seems to have different views on it. There are some who will damn near have sex with each other in public (not counting pure exhibitionists who will even go that far obviously), and others who can barely stand to hold hands if someone else is around.
What are some other thoughts on the subject? I tend to like/put up with hand holding, hugging, and very light kissing personally. Once it goes beyond that I feel it's a bit tacky.
Usually when I'm hitting on a girl and she tells me that she has a boyfriend I say, "What your man got to do with me?" or "How long you had that problem?"
Then she laughs as I crack more jokes and eventually I walk off gracefully.
Yes, David DeAngelo is indeed wonderful.
:roll:
Yep. Him and Tariq "King Flex" Nasheed. And Positive K.
I think that PDA is all a bit personal/cultural really.
I used to find lots of it acceptable, but then I spent lots of time in Japan and now I find it weird when people kiss etc in public.
But that means it's all a bit subjective, so I try not to worry if people do something in public I find too much.
I only have a problem when people make a show of it. If we're all doing something and you feel 'the urge' either leave or tone it the fuck down. Don't be surprised if I sing the k-i-s-s-i-n-g song in a falsetto.
Posts
Well, you finally got something right.
Why should the burden be on them to say why it is disrespectful? It seems to be the more common perception that it is. Should you not be the ones to answer why it should not be seen that way? It seems to me that identifying that there are other women around who are not actively telling you that they are in a relationship would be the "not crazy" thing to do as opposed to trying to bed down someone who has told you they are not available.
Why is calling someone a shit eating bitch in front of their old grandmother seen as disrespectful? Because she's offended by it? Because it's seen as rude? Why is that? Does it mean the grandmother is an unrealistically insecure and sensitive person with no sense of reality? No, it doesn't.
Why would I get offended if someone was hitting on my SO after she clearly stated she was with someone? Because I find it offensive. You can try and call that stance stupid all you want and chalk it up to someone being possessive or insecure, but you have presented nothing to back up your argument.
If I get annoyed at you flirting with my SO after she's made it clear she's with me, and handle it in a mature manner (IE talk with her or you or both depending on the situation) then you should respect that if the situation comes up again.
I'm not saying don't be flirty... some people just are. But if you're talking with someone and have the full intention to nail them at the first chance you can get, you should not be surprised if that persons SO gets a bit annoyed with your constant attentions.
Sure, if my SO is being very receptive, there's a bigger problem going on there than just you, and that would be between me and her to discuss, but having you butting in at every chance would not be helping.
tl;dr
why can't someone be both offended at you hitting on their SO and still be as secure in their relationship as can reasonably be expected?
Like I've said, if you have no actual sexual or romantic intentions, you're not hitting on her. Flirting with != hitting on. I personally don't care about flirting; people flirt all the time and it's fun.
It's a bad thing because you're not respecting their relationship. A relationship does not automatically deserve respect, but they don't automatically deserve disrespect either. I would argue that the polite, sensible, not assholish thing to do is default to respecting their relationship. Relationships in general exist because the people like each other and want to be with each other. If you disrespect someone's relationship by hitting on them, odds are they're not going to have fun; it's a fine line between testing the waters and ruining someone's day by being a persistent asshole, as Irene said.
Besides, in that situation, the boyfriend does have a valid reason for not liking what's going on, and he's perfectly justified in saying "hey, I don't like it when you hit on my girlfriend, could you back off please?" if you're not getting the message when she says she's in a relationship.
You can argue "but what if the boyfriend is an asshole" or "but what if I think she likes me more" or "but what if" etc etc, but each of those is a completely different situation. Yes, there are some cases where there might be a valid reason to attempt to break people up. Such reasons do not include "because I want her too."
And really, you harp on MrMister for breaking up someone's relationship and then you say:
If he does it out of concern for his friend and that makes him an asshole, then you doing it out of belief that you're the better guy would make you a conceited asshole.
The first is not their problem, it's your problem for continually arguing something that isn't being discussed. As was mentioned several times the topic is not about lighthearted banter with no intention other than conversation, it is about conversing with the other party for the sole intent of engaging in some sort of relationship, be that sexual or romantic.
As for the second?
Why is it a bad thing to try and break them up?
Sure, maybe the SO is an abusive manipulative twat and it would be damned good to get them apart.
Or maybe you know nothing about their relationship and you think the So is all magical rainbows and fairy dust and their life would be absolutely perfect if only they saw the light and were with you instead.
Both are just as likely in my (admittedly) anecdotal experience.
So you are potentially just as likely to be a total scumbag in peoples eyes as a knight in shining armor (and anything in between), so why would you come in with the atitude that their relationship means exactly fuck all?
Because the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Do you have numbers? No? I see.
We have been. Try reading the thread.
What rational* reason do they have to be offended? The only one coming close so far is that by hitting on their girlfriend with the intention of sleeping with her or "stealing" her or whatever, you are suggesting that you are a better guy.
However, that in and of itself is not offensive. If you are really smart, and someone comes to you and says, "I am smarter than you", will you be offended and demand they stop? Or will you go, "okay, then let's have a battle of wits"? If you are insecure in your intelligence, you'll think the guy is being rude and tactless. If you're secure in your intelligence, you'll see it as a challenge, perhaps even a fun one, and demand you settle the score.
The boyfriend, who has been in a relationship with her, has so far had plenty of chance to demonstrate his qualities. In the time of flirting, my qualities are challenging his. If the girl decides her boyfriend is the better person she'll stay with her. If she decides I'm better, she may break up and pursue something with me. In the latter scenario the boyfriend, if he truly cares for the girl, should be happy for her because she is off with a better man. If not, he is just a selfish prick who is out for his own good and his own good only.
See what I did there?
*both me and feral have argued that rational reasons are the only acceptable reasons in debate, because emotional reasons are highly subjective.
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t: evil multifarious
First, we are not talking about being a persistent asshole. I've already said that if she doesn't want me to hit on her, I won't.
Second, about why relationships exist and the "odds"; you are making a huge generalization without numbers to back you up. There are plenty - plenty - of relationships out there where the involved parties stay together because they are too complacent to break up. Does this mean they won't want to break up when someone better comes along? No. You would have me not give them that chance by putting the boyfriend's feelings above a) what I want b) what I think the girl deserves, and c) the possibility that the girl might get into a relationship with someone she likes more, not necessarily in that order.
So, there are a lot of reasons why relationships exist. Yeah, it is reasonable to claim that the underlying reason is that the people involved like each other. But this is not a reason for you to not hit on them, because the fact that they like each other does not mean they are unable to like another person, and will be unwilling to get out of the relationship to pursue a better option.
I am not attempting to break up anyone. Their breaking up is a byproduct of the situation, not the goal.
I am not believing I am the better guy. I mean, I think there is a possibility that I may be better - after all I don't know the boyfriend, and honestly does it make one a conceited asshole to think he may be better than someone else out there?
I am simply presenting myself to the girl, and it is up to her to make that judgment. To decide who she would rather be with.
You are saying I should not even do that, because apparently it is wrong to present people in relationships with choices regarding potential partners.
Choices are bad! We should monopolize on our significant others! If we eliminate their choices of potential partners by demanding said partners stop flirting with them, then our SOs will be more likely to stay with us! And we should use emotional blackmail against said flirters in an attempt to pressure them to stop pursuing our mates, and if that doesn't work we should claim their behavior is rude in order to put societal pressure on them! Hurrah for looking after ourselves and our own interests only, without considering the possibility that the flirter may indeed be a better guy and we should be happy for our SO if they decide to dump us and hit it off with them instead!
This is basically the brunt of you guys' mindset.
...
Fuck, you assholes are posting faster than I can respond. Where is Feral when I need him.
Meanwhile in the woods...
The leopard stood still and watched as his prey gulped mouthfuls of fresh, clear spring water. It was completely oblivious to Feral's presence. It raised its head, sniffed the air. Feral smiled. He was clever, you see, planting himself behind a bush downwind from the deer. As the deer bent its head down to drink some more, Feral slowly started shifting slowly, making himself flat against the ground, readying his fine, thick muscles for the leap...
Sure. What do you want to talk about?
This isn't how people work. If someone comes up to you and says "I'm smarter than you," they're being fucking rude. It doesn't matter if they are or not. You don't go up to someone and say that. You're going to be offended if you're dumber than him, because hey, he's pointing out a fact that didn't need to be pointed out and making you feel stupid for apparently no reason except self-aggrandizement, and if you're smarter than him he's misrepresenting you and being an arrogant twat. It is automatically rude and tactless to walk up to someone and say "I am smarter than you." I hope you weren't being completely serious with that example because my god that demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of common decency.
Your qualities are challenging his? The hell is this, a duel? Are you a stag locking horns with other males to assert your dominance? If they are in a good relationship and there's no reason for them to break up beside your interference, then interfering out of self interest is an asshole move. Sure you might be better. There's always someone better. That doesn't give you the right to break up their relationship.
Do you really think that anywhere close the majority of relationships are so dysfunctional that they should be broken up? Really? Is that what you think?
It doesn't matter. You are going to fuck up their relationship if you are successful. The consequence of your action is the disruption or dissolution of their relationship.
Precisely because you don't know him, you are being a jerk. You're assuming that you're potentially better than the boyfriend and that she should give you the time of day. It's arrogant.
There are so many things wrong with what you're saying that I am going to have list them numerically.
1) You are being disingenuous. You are not some enlightened soul going out and blessing women with choice. You are acting on your self interest. You don't approach a woman thinking "I'm going to provide her with a choice," you are approaching her thinking "I want her."
2) Choice is not necessarily a good thing. For every anecdotal imaginary case you can come up with where a girl would welcome a possible alternative mate, I can come up with one where an individual interfering in the relationship is destructive and harmful. You're not automatically doing something good by presenting yourself as an alternative. It is unbelievably, monumentally arrogant to believe that every time you present yourself to a woman, you are offering her a positive option for her relationship. The happiness of a woman's life does not grow proportionally to the number of men she feels attracted to; sometimes it can be quite the opposite.
What if you're actually a terrible alternative but you charm her into thinking otherwise? What if you're ruining an existing relationship for what ends up being a brief, painful, empty experience? Interfering in someone's relationship is not a neutral act; it is aggressive and disruptive. The incredible presumption you are making by assuming that there is no way your act can have negative consequences is simply astounding.
3) People do not function logically. Emotions do not function logically. The girl may not make her choice logically. She may choose on the spur of the moment, and make the wrong choice. You are not offering some sort of branching logic path with fully determinate possibilities. You are opening up choices that are bad just as much as you are opening up choices that are good, and you have absolutely no way of knowing which is the case! You could be wrecking something wonderful just as easily as you could be providing an escape from something boring and suffocating. So you should default to respecting the existing relationship unless you have compelling reasons to do otherwise.
4) Finally, you never explained how MrMister breaking up a relationship with no self interest and nothing but the best intentions for his friend is somehow worse than you breaking up a relationship based heavily on your own self interest and opinion of your quality and compatability with the person. In the context of the question that you were responding to, you were not simply presenting yourself. You had specifically said "and so what if I did want to break them up?"
Hahaha, welcome to D&D ;-)
Anyway, new topic. Lemme see... How about couples activities? Does one of you usually get his/her way for what to do in your joint spare time? For example, I love going to the opera, but my boyfriend hates opera, and so we never go to the opera.
Discuss.
Anything I brought up earlier, or anything else. I realize this is essentially derailing, but in an argument which is entirely, absolutely subjective it seems silly to make hundreds of posts arguing about the right answer.
You bet I will.
Sorry, I was off having sex.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
With someone else's significant other?
Not this time around.
Maybe this weekend.
Hopefully he'll join in, too.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That doesn't seem fair. Though it doesn't always work out, I try to stay 50/50 with stuff like that. If we do something I like, maybe next time I let him choose.
But I also don't force the bf into things he doesn't really can't stand. Which unfortunately includes watching sports on TV.
We can even have a three-some if you decide to chime in!
Ah well, I was just giving one example. I can be pretty recalcitrant myself. Like when he was in a band, I would avoid going to his gigs if at all possible. I guess we're pretty 50/50 for being jerks to each other ;-)
Like in your situation, Irene, if I wanted to go to the opera and my SO didn't, I'd just go to the opera on my own. No big deal.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I'll take it a step farther and say that I'm actually actively suspicious of people who don't have their own friends and pursuits. It sets off alarms that perhaps I am to be their hobby.
The same friends thing can be a bit of an off point, since for me, ideally my SO would like all my friends and vice versa and we'd all get along great... but it's by no means a requirement.
As for the hobbies however, I agree 100%. I see no reason why people should be forced into doing things they do not like to do (Opera's, TV sports, girl/guy movies, etc). It may be nice to do these things with your SO sometimes, but it should never be used as a bargaining chip (EX: I watched the game with you last week so you must go to this play with me, or if you watch/go to such and such no sex).
I think you should certainly try to take interest in your partners activities, but ultimately it's better if the 2 parties do things they enjoy, it's just great when you can share some activities that both enjoy.
I've been married a few years and we've picked up a few interests off each other. Much more than I'd have expected.
Having more friends in common would be nice. Mostly we just have separate friends, though perhaps that's because we're different nationalities.
You can feel to PM me if you wish to further debate this, but I won't counter point your last and derail this again. Suffice it to say I feel it's becoming a circular debate. I don't feel you are presenting points that can be said as valid and are shooting down the opposing viewpoints by claiming they do not bring anything to the table. And by "most" I meant in this thread. You can feel free to count if you want :P
Back onto a non debated for several pages topic.
PDA, everyone seems to have different views on it. There are some who will damn near have sex with each other in public (not counting pure exhibitionists who will even go that far obviously), and others who can barely stand to hold hands if someone else is around.
What are some other thoughts on the subject? I tend to like/put up with hand holding, hugging, and very light kissing personally. Once it goes beyond that I feel it's a bit tacky.
I used to find lots of it acceptable, but then I spent lots of time in Japan and now I find it weird when people kiss etc in public.
But that means it's all a bit subjective, so I try not to worry if people do something in public I find too much.
Yep. Him and Tariq "King Flex" Nasheed. And Positive K.
I only have a problem when people make a show of it. If we're all doing something and you feel 'the urge' either leave or tone it the fuck down. Don't be surprised if I sing the k-i-s-s-i-n-g song in a falsetto.
Haha, somehow I was expecting this.
Your reputation proceed you, sir.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Not to ege: thread rape does hurt. It hurts us all.