Having an Asian man leading a group of Afghan terrorists makes absolutely no sense, especially the angle that they're playing in IM3. In the MCU, the Ten Rings are based nearly entirely in Afghanistan and they're setting up the veil for a rope-a-dope by playing on the (fairly correct) supposition that the leader of a middle-eastern based terrorist group is probably going to be a local yokel, not an import.
You seem to be forgetting the part where Slattery was never actually in charge of the Ten Rings.
However the argument that he wasn't the "right kind of Asian" (East Asian) to play this character brings up another interesting intersection of the Chinese movie market and political considerations for the PRC: They probably wouldn't like the idea of someone Mandarin playing a terrorist in Afghanistan considering their security concerns with the Uighurs in Xinjiang province and their interaction with Afghan based militant groups.
That's like being worried that Americans will protest Iron Man 1 because the main villain is from America.
Trying to apply a US understanding to the PRC especially on inter Asain ethnic relations is a bit of a fools errand.
It was only a couple years ago there were large scale protests and arson directed at Japanese factories, over some barren rock islands.
And dredging up some WWII grievance is a favorite of both the PRC and Korean leaders, whenever there's some other news they want to distract from.
However the argument that he wasn't the "right kind of Asian" (East Asian) to play this character brings up another interesting intersection of the Chinese movie market and political considerations for the PRC: They probably wouldn't like the idea of someone Mandarin playing a terrorist in Afghanistan considering their security concerns with the Uighurs in Xinjiang province and their interaction with Afghan based militant groups.
That's like being worried that Americans will protest Iron Man 1 because the main villain is from America.
Trying to apply a US understanding to the PRC especially on inter Asain ethnic relations is a bit of a fools errand.
It was only a couple years ago there were large scale protests and arson directed at Japanese factories, over some barren rock islands.
And dredging up some WWII grievance is a favorite of both the PRC and Korean leaders, whenever there's some other news they want to distract from.
Okay, and how is that comparable to anything being discussed?
There are lots of Jackie Chan movies with Chinese villains. In fact, I'm assuming that the vast majority of action/adventure movies made in China for Chinese audiences have Chinese villains as well.
Where exactly would the Mandarin, as written, draw the line?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
However the argument that he wasn't the "right kind of Asian" (East Asian) to play this character brings up another interesting intersection of the Chinese movie market and political considerations for the PRC: They probably wouldn't like the idea of someone Mandarin playing a terrorist in Afghanistan considering their security concerns with the Uighurs in Xinjiang province and their interaction with Afghan based militant groups.
That's like being worried that Americans will protest Iron Man 1 because the main villain is from America.
Trying to apply a US understanding to the PRC especially on inter Asain ethnic relations is a bit of a fools errand.
It was only a couple years ago there were large scale protests and arson directed at Japanese factories, over some barren rock islands.
And dredging up some WWII grievance is a favorite of both the PRC and Korean leaders, whenever there's some other news they want to distract from.
Okay, and how is that comparable to anything being discussed?
There are lots of Jackie Chan movies with Chinese villains. In fact, I'm assuming that the vast majority of action/adventure movies made in China for Chinese audiences have Chinese villains as well.
Where exactly would the Mandarin, as written, draw the line?
However the argument that he wasn't the "right kind of Asian" (East Asian) to play this character brings up another interesting intersection of the Chinese movie market and political considerations for the PRC: They probably wouldn't like the idea of someone Mandarin playing a terrorist in Afghanistan considering their security concerns with the Uighurs in Xinjiang province and their interaction with Afghan based militant groups.
That's like being worried that Americans will protest Iron Man 1 because the main villain is from America.
Trying to apply a US understanding to the PRC especially on inter Asain ethnic relations is a bit of a fools errand.
It was only a couple years ago there were large scale protests and arson directed at Japanese factories, over some barren rock islands.
And dredging up some WWII grievance is a favorite of both the PRC and Korean leaders, whenever there's some other news they want to distract from.
Okay, and how is that comparable to anything being discussed?
There are lots of Jackie Chan movies with Chinese villains. In fact, I'm assuming that the vast majority of action/adventure movies made in China for Chinese audiences have Chinese villains as well.
Where exactly would the Mandarin, as written, draw the line?
Idk, maybe the opium use because that has such a strong connection to colonialism in China. I don't study the PRC and its media controls.
But saying "that'd be like Americans protesting X over Y" as a way to dismiss an argument assumes a lot of commonality in thinking that doesn't seem founded.
That got debunked a few pages ago, actually. All the money I'm the world isn't going to change Hollywood's attitude on this, or this wouldn't have gotten this bad.
Debunked implies evidence was used. Money changes everything.
Money being involved proves nothing. Where's your evidence?
It makes me sad to think that we're helping China eradicate the Tibetan culture because Hollywood is unwilling to give up market share.
I'd agree if that was actually what Marvel was doing with the Ancient One here. I asked about the connections and gotten crickets so I'm not sold that this is an actual thing that's happening or I'd have heard something by now.
Marvel is under no obligation whatsoever to search the world high and low to cast every part. They just need to get someone decent to good for each part, and Swinton is orders of magnitude better than decent.
Why do you assume any Asian actor they get is going to be decent? Do you seriously think Tilda the only person in the world who can play this role? And yeah, it seems really bad that marvel didn't bother searching for an Asian actor/actress for the role before settling on Tilda, and they don't need to search over the world of them - there are plenty Asian actors in America. Marvel is a big company and had plenty of time to do this, yet didn't bother because they knew who they wanted from the start for an Asian role. (At a time when they have a really bad reputation regarding Asians roles.) So yeah, not impressed.
You're inflicting your own priorities on them like it's some sort of rule or mandate. It very much isn't.
Because movie studios never do that for roles. Oh yeah, they do.
You keep saying they "didn't bother" or "didn't look" despite the fact that they've made it clear their casting decision was deliberate. They chose to cast the role the way they did, knowing that it would result in the exact complaints you've made.
They were going to complaints regardless, no one is arguing otherwise. This does not mean whitewashing the role was their only solution and we haven't got the slightest evidence they bothered any other way. So my patience wears thin for their excuses. It's not like they tried that hard with this.
They considered this preferable over the complaints that would have been made had they gone another way, so they made a reasoned decision which you dislike. I'm not sure how many different ways you're going to say you dislike the decision.
I know how they come to their decision, that wasn't in question. This is a deflection about how much creative room they had with this, their options weren't casting an Asian in a stereotypical role and white lady. To date we haven't had much detail on how they came to this decision either. The implication being they didn't bother thinking hard on this or they don't want the public to know how they came to their decision. Neither puts them in best light.
-edit-
Also, rules and mandates that studios dictate to their producers (or more typically writers and directors since studios and producers tend to be the same or on the same page) exist because studios have the authority to make them, which of course the internet lacks. If a producer doesn't want studio interference they can get fucked or go it alone. Your closest corollary is to withhold your money by not seeing the film, something I have suggested repeatedly. But making demands as though you were the studio will not accomplish anything because you're not financing the film.
Again with shutting down the conservation, this is a message board - we have a right to complain about how a business operates. What Marvel does is up to them, and the public will react accordingly to their decisions.
I do enjoy the idea that there is some secret Hollywood cabal keeping minorities down while knowingly losing money because reasons, and their shareholders are either for it or none the wiser.
All the money I'm the world isn't going to change Hollywood's attitude on this, or this wouldn't have gotten this bad.
This is just... silly.
No conspiracy needed for ignorance.
It's like imagining that there's a secret cabal keeping writers from making shared universes until Marvel showed up rather than just not really considering why thing are the way they are.
Yes, but ignorance has been dismissed and now the reason is some sort of organized malice, apparently.
Here's the thing, the status quo was created at a time when it was okay use "yellowface", and before the kind of more cogent understanding of racism we have at the moment. The status quo is set up so that people don't have to think about it, that's what routine is.
So the people doing it out of routine are working from ignorance, but when you're confronted with the reality and your response is to retreat back to routine, that's malice. You've gone from being ignorant to actively trying to ignore the situation. You can't claim to be ignorant, you're just unwilling to take any steps towards adjusting that easier routine.
And sure, people are going to say that it's easy to talk about it when you don't have to practice it, but it's not a difficult problem and it doesn't have a huge risk attached. A few people just need to adjust how they think about things a little bit to make a big difference.
Change the "default" in your mind to include non-white people. Think about opening up the casting call. Think about how to access new and old markets at once.
While it might be better if people made big changes, I don't think that's likely right off the bat. And none of that has a huge risk attached, it's purely how you percieve the world. Change perception -> change discussion. Change discussion -> change actions. Change actions -> change results.
There is both ignorance and malice and none of that requires some secret cabal.
Oh, it's ignorance and malice.
Okay.
Every studio exec and casting director is now a raging racist bigot?
Actually yeah, some are. Hollywood isn't free of bigots. Others are ignorant or don't want to rock the boat. They don't have to be malicious racists to partipate in systemic racism.
It makes me sad to think that we're helping China eradicate the Tibetan culture because Hollywood is unwilling to give up market share.
I'd agree if that was actually what Marvel was doing with the Ancient One here. I asked about the connections and gotten crickets so I'm not sold that this is an actual thing that's happening or I'd have heard something by now.
Marvel is under no obligation whatsoever to search the world high and low to cast every part. They just need to get someone decent to good for each part, and Swinton is orders of magnitude better than decent.
Why do you assume any Asian actor they get is going to be decent? Do you seriously think Tilda the only person in the world who can play this role? And yeah, it seems really bad that marvel didn't bother searching for an Asian actor/actress for the role before settling on Tilda, and they don't need to search over the world of them - there are plenty Asian actors in America. Marvel is a big company and had plenty of time to do this, yet didn't bother because they knew who they wanted from the start for an Asian role. (At a time when they have a really bad reputation regarding Asians roles.) So yeah, not impressed.
You're inflicting your own priorities on them like it's some sort of rule or mandate. It very much isn't.
Because movie studios never do that for roles. Oh yeah, they do.
You keep saying they "didn't bother" or "didn't look" despite the fact that they've made it clear their casting decision was deliberate. They chose to cast the role the way they did, knowing that it would result in the exact complaints you've made.
They considered this preferable over the complaints that would have been made had they gone another way, so they made a reasoned decision which you dislike. I'm not sure how many different ways you're going to say you dislike the decision.
-edit-
Also, rules and mandates that studios dictate to their producers (or more typically writers and directors since studios and producers tend to be the same or on the same page) exist because studios have the authority to make them, which of course the internet lacks. If a producer doesn't want studio interference they can get fucked or go it alone. Your closest corollary is to withhold your money by not seeing the film, something I have suggested repeatedly. But making demands as though you were the studio will not accomplish anything because you're not financing the film.
And, to reiterate, the backlash from casting TAO as the Asian man he was in the comics wouldn't be from fringe white nationalists offended that an Asian actor was cast in a supporting role. Marvel's been ignoring those chucklefucks since Thor.
The criticism would be that they have a character that's a racial stereotype of a central Asian mystic, and that criticism would be supported by decades of back issues of the comic. Just like how turning the Mandarin into a white businessman might be a little offensive, but nowhere near as offensive as portraying him as, well:
Except no one's saying The Ancient One has be exactly like he was in the 60's. Casting an Asian in the role does not automatically make him one. In fact, I said this word for word in earlier posts.
Jay;
Because casting all white people has proven to not affect box office sales. Casting minorities has proven to not increase sales.
A bad movie is going to flop regardless of who they cast in it, so why add additional risk of breaking the status quo for casting.
Because by excluding minorities from your cast, you discourage future minorities from pursuing this career track, which means you have a very limited talent pool to work with.
Smaller talent pool = shittier movies.
Maybe there's an Asian version of the Coen Brothers out there, with stories depicting their Asian American heritage. But we'll never know if we keep telling them that they don't belong in Hollywood.
That a shit load of career tracks in Hollywood involve working for free (at least most of the time) to break in, you're already discouraging minorities by virtue of discouraging people who aren't wealthy or have family capable of paying their way while they work for free. This is the situation for pretty much all media.
We all agree here that writing good roles for minority actors is a desired action simply in and of itself. However it seems to have been lost in the last few pages that posters here aren't arguing that it's not the right thing to do, but that there's no profit motive to do it to more of a degree than it is done now. And that even if you do it realistically you're risking accusations of racism.
Except a page or two back I posted a lot of evidence to suggest this is untrue. Nobody has gone out of their way to address that, instead people keep insisting it's too risky or nonprofitable when we have demonstrated that A) Hollywood takes risks all the damn time and minorities spend more at the box office annually and movies like "Twelve Years a Slave" do well even in foreign markets.
It has been addressed.
There is no evidence showing a positive result for minority casting, because for every X there is a Y disproving the thing that Z is disproving. What we DO have evidence of is that Hollywood is casting white people, and they wouldn't be casting white people if there were a reason involved. Rolling out a few decently successful shows and movies with minority casting is really the height of anecdotal.
Except films fail all the time, and yet they never point to the white cast as the issue! You can't keep holding up white casting as more profitable or less risky when it's been demonstrated that isn't the case. The idea that a minority cast has to be MORE profitable to be even ventured as an idea is so ridiculous it is insulting.
The reason we only have a few examples is the exact issue in question! Do you see the hypocrisy in what you're saying? It's only an anecdote when it's convenient to your argument, but not against it. We have already been over this, it's a self fulfilling prophecy.
I mean, what do you want me to say? White people are being cast more. That's a fact. Studios have better accountants than we do and they know what sells and why, so if minority casting truly was able to bring in boatloads more then we'd see boatloads more. Money talks.
Unless you are arguing that the studios are turning down money to maintain the whiteness of Hollywood.
It's not that simple, and being mercenary because accountants is not a good excuse for racist politics in the year 2016. Hollywood has had a long struggle with poor racial treatment (as well as with women and LGBT), it's not even a secret. That's why it's disappointing to see Marvel perpetuate it like this. When we know that they can do better. It's a mystery why they're able to be good with supporting roles with diversity yet lead roles are a stretch to far for them. They're only now getting around to lead woman and minority roles in the movies.
Change doesn't have to be forced by customers. It can come from within. We can organise on Facebook pages or make petitions, but like everyone loves to point out, Hollywood will still make money. I admit, maybe I am part of the problem. I see MCU movies pretty much without hesitation. But the idea we have the power to change this alone is silly. I still vote with my wallet when given the option. Until I have more details on the GitS remake, I am likely to skip it altogether. Again, I don't think the message of my not seeing it will convey to them why I dislike the idea. They will blame it on the property or the fans or but not on Scarjo or the white cast.
You aren't voting with your wallet at all, sorry.
When you go to one white washed film, but not another, all you are saying is you aren't interested in that second film. Everyone has to stop going to every movie, or nothing is going to change.
That only works when everyone does it. Everyone isn't doing it. The calvary is coming around the corner for this that's why it's important for the press and public to put pressure on Marvel and Hollywood for this. Change can only truly come from within.
Like, if we wanted change right now, it could possibly mean shitcanning the entire MCU.
What, no. Change means the MCU continues to operate, except this time they do it properly behind the scenes. We don't need to burn the MCU down to get better representation.
That kid is a perfect role for what the people here actually want. A normal average person of whatever background who could be any American. And cast an asian person to play it. I agree!
The Mandarin is not that role, and the evasive whitewash of the character is totally understandable, and yes, yes very much people will complain either way.
So why exactly couldn't you depict the Mandarin as a Asian person reading the exact same lines with the exact same story?
Is there some rule that Asian people can't play failed actors?
Is there some rule saying that Asian people can't play opium addicts?
If your argument is, "They had to change his background," then I agree.
If your argument is, "They had to make him not Asian," then you still haven't explained that part.
Heck, they could even have Ben Kingsley still do a dub for the "you'll never see me coming" speech, and then explain that he used software to make his voice sound scarier.
Yeah, Asians... Arabs... almost indistinguishable.
Let's just throw random Asians into films for no discernable reason.
"And here's the new leader of the Black Panthers, Tommy Lee."
What are you talking about? Having better representation doesn't mean they can't do it right. It's not it's rocket science. Watch Jessica Jones, and AoS - that's how to do it right. And yes, there definitely should be a larger number of roles for Asians in the films.
this has gotten confusing, because if the role could be played by anybody, and yet they chose a multiracial person, that's ... admirable?
Yes.
But you have some people in this thread saying, "This role as written could have been played by anyone based on how it was written, but given how there are so few roles given to East Asian people, and given how this character derives his code name from East Asian culture, it should would have been nice if the casting agents considered casting someone of East Asian descent."
And you have other people in this thread saying, "This role as written absolutely could not have been played by an Asian actor, even though the actor who played it was technically half-Asian."
Having an Asian man leading a group of Afghan terrorists makes absolutely no sense, especially the angle that they're playing in IM3. In the MCU, the Ten Rings are based nearly entirely in Afghanistan and they're setting up the veil for a rope-a-dope by playing on the (fairly correct) supposition that the leader of a middle-eastern based terrorist group is probably going to be a local yokel, not an import.
Kingsley is fairly famous for being able to morph his face and become somewhat unrecognizable, and for being a cornball. It was perfect. And he's only technically an asian in the same way Vladmir Putin is technically an asian.
In the MCU the Ten Rings are a group made from various countries, like HYDRA was.
Counterfactual? Sorry no, there's ample evidence provided by the posters in this thread that they will indeed complain regardless.
So show me the single best example you can think of where this happened with what you view as arespectful portrayal of Asians.
Because right now, you sound like "Amy's Baking Company," complaining that the Yelpers will tear you apart no matter what so there's no sense in trying to change your business model. Without actually considering that maybe your service really does suck and some of those Yelpers actually have a valid point.
This is loaded. Because a (we weren't talking about Asians specifically, or at least I wasn't, but all minority representation) respectful representation is subjective (beyond explicitly throwing stereotypes out). As I posted earlier when Creed was brought up as a good representation of a minority character, if you took the kids I grew up with that were in the actual position that the character was in (future dependent on athletic endeavor, black, low income, father not in the picture, trouble with law as a juvenile) and put them in the place of Micheal B. Jordan with instructions to portray that character in a way that they actually are in real life, you would set this forum on fire with your disdain for that "disrespectful" representation.
It's all about the execution, since Creed was done well it worked, note lack of complaints with that movie. Hollywood hiring Michel B. Jordan for a role like didn't make him a bad stereotype. The actor being hired isn't where bad stereotypes come from, it's how they're written. Something the MCU has done plenty of before, except apparently when it comes to the Ancient One - then suddenly casting an Asian actor in the role makes it a bad stereotype before the first word is written.
That's not my point.
My point was that a real portrayal of how a real person is could itself be construed as offensive and racist, as the links that were posted earlier in the thread attested to. Because the way Michael B. Jordan portrayed Creed is not representative of real people I know who met all of the actual characteristics of that character. I don't know if you misunderstood what I wrote or you just didn't read it.
Unlike Jordan's role the Ancient One isn't portraying a real people, though. I've repeatedly asked for evidence about this, and gotten nothing showing otherwise. He's from a fictional land in the Himalayas, which they can change on a whim and have do some with less reason. In fact, your example doesn't debunk my argument it emboldens it, and I wasn't even making an argument to go that far with the portrayal either.
Which is great once they actually happen, we're far from that happening with minority issues in Hollywood. It's also harder to do this against an entire industry like Hollywood, this isn't strictly about a certain company.
Here's some key excerpts about the Ancient One's wikipedia entry. I don't se anything where he came from Tibet in it.
The character who would eventually become the Ancient One was born in Kamar-Taj, "a hidden land high in the Himalayans",[1] more than 500 years ago. He spent his youth as a peaceful farmer, until his friend Kaluu discovered the power of magic.[2]When Kaluu shared this knowledge of the mystic arts with the Ancient One, the two disagreed on how they would use the powers. The Ancient One wished to turn their village into a utopia, while Kaluu desired power and conquest over nearby villages.[3]
The Ancient One and Kaluu agreed to cast a spell, eliminating sickness, disease, and age from Kamar-Taj. Subsequently the villagers, under Kaluu's mind-control spell, crown him king of the village.[1] The Ancient One attempts to stop Kaluu, but the village of Kamar-Taj is wiped out as a result of their conflict.[4] As a result, Kaluu is banished to an alternate dimension and the Ancient One is stripped of his immortality. Nonetheless, the Ancient One ages far more slowly than any regular human.[5]
Sometime later, the Black Rider investigates a crime in Texas that eventually leads him to New York City's Chinatown.[volume & issue needed] While there, he receives help from a mysterious Chinese man,[volume & issue needed] who is later revealed to be a younger version of the Ancient One.[volume & issue needed]
***
ver the next few centuries, the Ancient One travels the Earth, battling demons and evil spirits, banishing many from Earth. He increases his own knowledge, gathering and guarding books that contain dangerous knowledge.[volume & issue needed] He encounters the being, Eternity, through his meditations and the latter gives him the Amulet of Agamotto, a powerful mystical artifact.[volume & issue needed] Then in Babylonia, the Ancient One defeats a griffin while guarding the Book of the Vishanti, a tome of mystical knowledge, that eventually ends up in his possession.[volume & issue needed]
The Ancient One finally settles in the Himalaya Mountains and builds a palace as his home, together with an order of monks that he forms for his own protection and support.[volume & issue needed] In a tournament organized by the sorcerer Aged Genghis, the Ancient One wins the title of Earth's Sorcerer Supreme[volume & issue needed] and subsequently takes on responsibility for a student, who later becomes Mister Jip. The student is then banished from the Ancient One's home when the student is discovered by his master to have been studying forbidden books of black magic to increase his own power.[6]
In London, during the Great London Fire, the Ancient One battles Dormammu in one of their many conflicts, forcing him to retreat.[volume & issue needed] While the Ancient One successfully protects Earth, he never completely defeats Dormammu, meaning that Dormammu repeatedly returns.
***
As he ages and weakens, the Ancient One seeks out another student and eventually approaches Anthony Ludgate Druid, a psychiatrist with mystical talents.[volume & issue needed] Posing as the High Lama, the Ancient One trains Druid to become Doctor Druid.[7] Also, Baron Mordo, a Transylvanian nobleman, approaches the Ancient One to inquire about the possibility of becoming his student. The Ancient One sees the corruption within Mordo's heart, but holds hope that redemption would occur following the training process.[volume & issue needed]
The Ancient One accepts Mordo's request and begins teaching Mordo,[volume & issue needed] who seems to change at first, but grows jealous when the Ancient One proceeds to protect a boy named Stephen Strange — the Ancient One claims that Strange possesses incredible magical talents and holds the potential to become the new Sorcerer Supreme.[volume & issue needed] Mordo constructs a plot against Strange, sending demons and nightmares to plague the boy, but the Ancient One continues to protect Strange and erases the encounters from the boy's mind. However, the boy has nevertheless been affected by Mordo's actions and Strange eventually becomes a self-centered, highly successful neurosurgeon.[volume & issue needed] It is revealed that the Ancient One was aware of Mordo's actions, but decides to maintain a close relationship with Mordo with the intention of limiting any further damage due to an ability to monitor Mordo's actions.[volume & issue needed]
After a car crash, Strange seeks assistance from the Ancient One to cure the nerve damage in his hands, only to angrily refuse when offered to be the Ancient One's apprentice instead. The Ancient One then accepts Strange as a student when Strange discovers Mordo and Dormammu had become collaborators and that Mordo had perpetrated an attack against the Ancient One. Unaware of the Ancient' One's awareness of the threat against him, Strange confronts Mordo about his treachery only to be bound by restraining spells to prevent him from warning the Ancient One or physically attacking Mordo. Alarmed at these developments and concerned for the old man's safety, Strange concludes that the only way to help him would be to learn magic himself to gain a hope of stopping Mordo. When Strange is driven by this selfless purpose, he approaches the Ancient One to accept his offer. The pleased mentor promptly frees Strange from his restraints and explains the whole situation.[8]
Mordo leaves the palace shortly afterwards and Stephen becomes the Ancient One's successor under the name Doctor Strange.[9] The Ancient One often assists Strange. But when the extra-dimensional monster Shuma-Gorath tries to invade Earth through the Ancient One's mind while the latter is in the Crypts of Kaa-U, the Ancient One prompts Strange to destroy the portion of the Ancient One's mind in which the ego, or sense of self, exist within. While such action blocks the way for Shuma-Gorath, trapping him within the Ancient One's mind, the Ancient One's physical body is also destroyed. The Ancient One's corporeal existence is over, but his soul subsequently achieves transcendence, becoming one with the universe and Eternity.[10] Strange then inherits the Ancient One's title as Sorcerer Supreme.[volume & issue needed]
The Ancient One demonstrates his existence following the death of his physical body by manifesting himself as an avatar of Eternity, intervening in a struggle between Doctor Strange and Eternity.[11] He also briefly regains his corporeal form when the Creators cause the universe to reject him,[volume & issue needed] during which time he lives as an alcohol-dependent derelict in the Bowery section of Manhattan, New York, United States (US).[12] He resumed his oneness with the universe upon Doctor Strange's defeat of the Creators.[13]
I am absolutely puzzled why anyone would think he is Tibetan (though that would have been cool) and this is the first I've heard of that belief despite reading lots of comics for decades. Including Dr. Strange. It'd be really great to get answers about this rather than ignored whenever it's bought up.
Which is great once they actually happen, we're far from that happening with minority issues in Hollywood. It's also harder to do this against an entire industry like Hollywood, this isn't strictly about a certain company.
The Chinese government has proved to have an extremely low tolerance when it comes to supporters of the Tibetan Independence Movement. Actors Harrison Ford and Richard Gere, a devout Buddhist, have been banned from entering the country after publicly expressing their support for Tibet. Martin Scorsese was banned in response to his 1997 film Kundun, which chronicles the life and exile of Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama. And Brad Pitt is forbidden from entering the country simply for starring in Seven Years in Tibet.
Which yeah, is seriously fucked up. However, the movies which are banned are specifically about Tibet - not Tibetan characters from any movies about other things. If any one else has found any better examples that fit Dr. Strange feel free to chime in, I haven't found much on Google.
The youth who would eventually be called the Ancient One was born over five hundred years ago in Kamar-Taj, a village in a hidden land in the Himalaya Mountains in the area now known as Tibet.
The youth who would eventually be called the Ancient One was born over five hundred years ago in Kamar-Taj, a village in a hidden land in the Himalaya Mountains in the area now known as Tibet.
So, there's that.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Thank you.
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Captain Marcusnow arrives the hour of actionRegistered Userregular
I mean, you said it yourself. Anything that could be construed as pro-Uighur or pro-Tibet- edit or that even mentions the Uighurs or Tibet. The PRC is a totalitarian state with very tight control over what's shown in Chinese theaters and they block stuff all the time.
Interestingly enough, it looks like "The Last Airbender" film was still allowed in China, despite the fact that it was not only heavily inspired by Tibetan culture, but the Fire Nation invasion is pretty much a direct metaphor for China.
I mean, you said it yourself. Anything that could be construed as pro-Uighur or pro-Tibet- edit or that even mentions the Uighurs or Tibet. The PRC is a totalitarian state with very tight control over what's shown in Chinese theaters and they block stuff all the time.
That quote tree was in reference to Iron Man 3.
What does Trevor Slattery in Iron Man 3 have to do with Tibet?
I mean, you said it yourself. Anything that could be construed as pro-Uighur or pro-Tibet- edit or that even mentions the Uighurs or Tibet. The PRC is a totalitarian state with very tight control over what's shown in Chinese theaters and they block stuff all the time.
The only movies I've seen banned that had anything to do with Tibet were specifically about Tibet, unless you know examples I don't know about. Hardly a situation Dr. Strange is in. If The Last Airbender can get shown in China there's no reason a Tibetan* Ancient One shouldn't get a free pass.
I was wrong about China banning magic in films, it was ghosts.
* especially one who has no ties to Tibet, which they have numerous avenues to explore with Asian actors in the role
Interestingly enough, it looks like "The Last Airbender" film was still allowed in China, despite the fact that it was not only heavily inspired by Tibetan culture, but the Fire Nation invasion is pretty much a direct metaphor for China.
I mean, you said it yourself. Anything that could be construed as pro-Uighur or pro-Tibet- edit or that even mentions the Uighurs or Tibet. The PRC is a totalitarian state with very tight control over what's shown in Chinese theaters and they block stuff all the time.
That quote tree was in reference to Iron Man 3.
What does Trevor Slattery in Iron Man 3 have to do with Tibet?
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
Interestingly enough, it looks like "The Last Airbender" film was still allowed in China, despite the fact that it was not only heavily inspired by Tibetan culture, but the Fire Nation invasion is pretty much a direct metaphor for China.
I mean, you said it yourself. Anything that could be construed as pro-Uighur or pro-Tibet- edit or that even mentions the Uighurs or Tibet. The PRC is a totalitarian state with very tight control over what's shown in Chinese theaters and they block stuff all the time.
That quote tree was in reference to Iron Man 3.
What does Trevor Slattery in Iron Man 3 have to do with Tibet?
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
It's not a perfect 1:1 translation. Because storytelling.
The Fire Nation is itself a metaphor for Japan, and the Earth Kingdom is a metaphor for China.
OTOH, the specific invasion of the Tibertan inspired monks can be seen as a direct metaphor for China's invasion.
There's also the fact that the whole idea of uniting the four kingdoms can be taken as a metaphor for the original founding of China itself (i.e., the basic plot of "Hero", "The Emperor and the Assassin", etc).
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
It's not a perfect 1:1 translation. Because storytelling.
The Fire Nation is itself a metaphor for Japan, and the Earth Kingdom is a metaphor for China.
OTOH, the specific invasion of the Tibertan inspired monks can be seen as a direct metaphor for China's invasion.
There's also the fact that the whole idea of uniting the four kingdoms can be taken as a metaphor for the original founding of China itself (i.e., the basic plot of "Hero", "The Emperor and the Assassin", etc).
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
It's not a perfect 1:1 translation. Because storytelling.
The Fire Nation is itself a metaphor for Japan, and the Earth Kingdom is a metaphor for China.
OTOH, the specific invasion of the Tibertan inspired monks can be seen as a direct metaphor for China's invasion.
There's also the fact that the whole idea of uniting the four kingdoms can be taken as a metaphor for the original founding of China itself (i.e., the basic plot of "Hero", "The Emperor and the Assassin", etc).
But how do you think the Chinese government would interpret it?
Especially since we're discussing the Shymalan version, where Fire Nation is no longer Japanese.
The Air Nomads are still clearly Tibetan. And you're still supposed to sympathize with them when they get invaded and see the invasion as completely wrong. Even if the specific invader isn't China -- that doesn't matter, because the movie is criticizing the invasion itself.
Where as Doctor Strange is making no such political commentary about Tibetan invasions.
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
It's not a perfect 1:1 translation. Because storytelling.
The Fire Nation is itself a metaphor for Japan, and the Earth Kingdom is a metaphor for China.
OTOH, the specific invasion of the Tibertan inspired monks can be seen as a direct metaphor for China's invasion.
There's also the fact that the whole idea of uniting the four kingdoms can be taken as a metaphor for the original founding of China itself (i.e., the basic plot of "Hero", "The Emperor and the Assassin", etc).
But how do you think the Chinese government would interpret it?
Especially since we're discussing the Shymalan version, where Fire Nation is no longer Japanese.
Eh, I don't imagine they would see it differently.
Island asian nation invades land based asian nation, and attempts to force their rule on them.
I don't recall the actual air tribe locations being a part of the movie, they kind of just skipped all of that stuff, probably to avoid the tibetan culture references. I could be wrong though, because I don't want to remember that movie any more than I do, and you can't make me.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
It's not a perfect 1:1 translation. Because storytelling.
The Fire Nation is itself a metaphor for Japan, and the Earth Kingdom is a metaphor for China.
OTOH, the specific invasion of the Tibertan inspired monks can be seen as a direct metaphor for China's invasion.
There's also the fact that the whole idea of uniting the four kingdoms can be taken as a metaphor for the original founding of China itself (i.e., the basic plot of "Hero", "The Emperor and the Assassin", etc).
But how do you think the Chinese government would interpret it?
Especially since we're discussing the Shymalan version, where Fire Nation is no longer Japanese.
Eh, I don't imagine they would see it differently.
Island asian nation invades land based asian nation, and attempts to force their rule on them.
I don't recall the actual air tribe locations being a part of the movie, they kind of just skipped all of that stuff, probably to avoid the tibetan culture references. I could be wrong though, because I don't want to remember that movie any more than I do, and you can't make me.
It took 24 people bending for 5 minutes to throw a rock.
A question is what would be a non-objectionable degree of representation?
One that reflects demographics? One that equally represents all demographics - i.e. an equal split between all demographic groups? One that allocates resources reflective of demographics?
I expect that this isn't a simple question to answer in a way that doesn't produce odd economic effects and/or unpleasant conclusions for those advocating change.
One that isn't limited by race or sex.
If the industry becomes more open to casting people of color and women outside of roles written specifically for people of that race or sex, then it becomes less of a problem for roles that are notably for them to be recast.
Note that the problem won't go away entirely, because changing the sex or race of the character can still cause issues as in the case of "21".
Just stop imagining the white man as the default.
We already have stats that prove that the vast majority of moviegoers in the US and Canada are minorities and women (per capita) because the MPAA releases stats on that every year telling us that. Minority people are more likely to go to the theaters multiple times a year over white people.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
So... since we're talking about minorities and women getting roles usually conquered by men, shouldn't the Old Master trope being done by a woman be seen as a progressive step forward?
A question is what would be a non-objectionable degree of representation?
One that reflects demographics? One that equally represents all demographics - i.e. an equal split between all demographic groups? One that allocates resources reflective of demographics?
I expect that this isn't a simple question to answer in a way that doesn't produce odd economic effects and/or unpleasant conclusions for those advocating change.
One that isn't limited by race or sex.
If the industry becomes more open to casting people of color and women outside of roles written specifically for people of that race or sex, then it becomes less of a problem for roles that are notably for them to be recast.
Note that the problem won't go away entirely, because changing the sex or race of the character can still cause issues as in the case of "21".
Just stop imagining the white man as the default.
We already have stats that prove that the vast majority of moviegoers in the US and Canada are minorities and women (per capita) because the MPAA releases stats on that every year telling us that. Minority people are more likely to go to the theaters multiple times a year over white people.
Minorities are more likely to attend more movies per year, but whites still make up the majority of ticket sales (63% in general and 54% per capita). And your source shows that men per capita attend movies more than women.
Disclaimer: before someone does it again, I'm not defending racism in anyway.
So... since we're talking about minorities and women getting roles usually conquered by men, shouldn't the Old Master trope being done by a woman be seen as a progressive step forward?
One step forward and one step back is not progress.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
So... since we're talking about minorities and women getting roles usually conquered by men, shouldn't the Old Master trope being done by a woman be seen as a progressive step forward?
One step forward and one step back is not progress.
So for it to be a full step forward, it would have to be a... what? Asian woman? Would casting a black woman make it 1.5 steps?
So... since we're talking about minorities and women getting roles usually conquered by men, shouldn't the Old Master trope being done by a woman be seen as a progressive step forward?
One step forward and one step back is not progress.
So for it to be a full step forward, it would have to be a... what? Asian woman? Would casting a black woman make it 1.5 steps?
Obama was elected President.
Some people still want a female President.
What's so confusing about this? Honestly, if you don't "get" this, you fundamentally don't "get" human beings. Not only can different people want different things, but the same person can want more than one "thing". (My favourite foods are burgers and fries. I ate a burger. I still want fries.)
So... since we're talking about minorities and women getting roles usually conquered by men, shouldn't the Old Master trope being done by a woman be seen as a progressive step forward?
One step forward and one step back is not progress.
This is a terrible analogy. At worst, it's one foot forward and the other remaining in place. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good and all that.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
So... since we're talking about minorities and women getting roles usually conquered by men, shouldn't the Old Master trope being done by a woman be seen as a progressive step forward?
One step forward and one step back is not progress.
So for it to be a full step forward, it would have to be a... what? Asian woman? Would casting a black woman make it 1.5 steps?
Obama was elected President.
Some people still want a female President.
What's so confusing about this? Honestly, if you don't "get" this, you fundamentally don't "get" human beings. Not only can different people want different things, but the same person can want more than one "thing". (My favourite foods are burgers and fries. I ate a burger. I still want fries.)
The problem is Dedwrekka is arguing that Obama being elected President wasn't progress at all, because he's a black man, instead of being ... I guess a black woman?
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What political message are you referring to?
Slattery isn't acting on behalf of the Chinese government. Presumably, the Chinese government in IM3 would also like to see Slattery arrested.
Heck, Slattery isn't even acting on behalf of the Ten Rings.
I... what do you think "rope-a-dope" means?
http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/boycotts/successfulboycotts.aspx
Trying to apply a US understanding to the PRC especially on inter Asain ethnic relations is a bit of a fools errand.
It was only a couple years ago there were large scale protests and arson directed at Japanese factories, over some barren rock islands.
And dredging up some WWII grievance is a favorite of both the PRC and Korean leaders, whenever there's some other news they want to distract from.
Okay, and how is that comparable to anything being discussed?
There are lots of Jackie Chan movies with Chinese villains. In fact, I'm assuming that the vast majority of action/adventure movies made in China for Chinese audiences have Chinese villains as well.
Where exactly would the Mandarin, as written, draw the line?
Chow Yun Fat got half of his time on POC cut.
China do what China do.
Idk, maybe the opium use because that has such a strong connection to colonialism in China. I don't study the PRC and its media controls.
But saying "that'd be like Americans protesting X over Y" as a way to dismiss an argument assumes a lot of commonality in thinking that doesn't seem founded.
Money being involved proves nothing. Where's your evidence?
They were going to complaints regardless, no one is arguing otherwise. This does not mean whitewashing the role was their only solution and we haven't got the slightest evidence they bothered any other way. So my patience wears thin for their excuses. It's not like they tried that hard with this.
I know how they come to their decision, that wasn't in question. This is a deflection about how much creative room they had with this, their options weren't casting an Asian in a stereotypical role and white lady. To date we haven't had much detail on how they came to this decision either. The implication being they didn't bother thinking hard on this or they don't want the public to know how they came to their decision. Neither puts them in best light.
Again with shutting down the conservation, this is a message board - we have a right to complain about how a business operates. What Marvel does is up to them, and the public will react accordingly to their decisions.
Actually yeah, some are. Hollywood isn't free of bigots. Others are ignorant or don't want to rock the boat. They don't have to be malicious racists to partipate in systemic racism.
Except no one's saying The Ancient One has be exactly like he was in the 60's. Casting an Asian in the role does not automatically make him one. In fact, I said this word for word in earlier posts.
It's not that simple, and being mercenary because accountants is not a good excuse for racist politics in the year 2016. Hollywood has had a long struggle with poor racial treatment (as well as with women and LGBT), it's not even a secret. That's why it's disappointing to see Marvel perpetuate it like this. When we know that they can do better. It's a mystery why they're able to be good with supporting roles with diversity yet lead roles are a stretch to far for them. They're only now getting around to lead woman and minority roles in the movies.
That only works when everyone does it. Everyone isn't doing it. The calvary is coming around the corner for this that's why it's important for the press and public to put pressure on Marvel and Hollywood for this. Change can only truly come from within.
What, no. Change means the MCU continues to operate, except this time they do it properly behind the scenes. We don't need to burn the MCU down to get better representation.
Due to the portrayal, not the casting.
I doubt that China would be okay if Mickey Rooney played the exact same role in yellow face makeup.
OTOH, here's Jackie Chan fighting a Chinese pirate in the movie "Project A."
There's a big difference between casting a bad guy who happens to be Asian, and a guy who's bad because of lazy Asian stereotypes.
What are you talking about? Having better representation doesn't mean they can't do it right. It's not it's rocket science. Watch Jessica Jones, and AoS - that's how to do it right. And yes, there definitely should be a larger number of roles for Asians in the films.
In the MCU the Ten Rings are a group made from various countries, like HYDRA was.
Unlike Jordan's role the Ancient One isn't portraying a real people, though. I've repeatedly asked for evidence about this, and gotten nothing showing otherwise. He's from a fictional land in the Himalayas, which they can change on a whim and have do some with less reason. In fact, your example doesn't debunk my argument it emboldens it, and I wasn't even making an argument to go that far with the portrayal either.
Which is great once they actually happen, we're far from that happening with minority issues in Hollywood. It's also harder to do this against an entire industry like Hollywood, this isn't strictly about a certain company.
I am absolutely puzzled why anyone would think he is Tibetan (though that would have been cool) and this is the first I've heard of that belief despite reading lots of comics for decades. Including Dr. Strange. It'd be really great to get answers about this rather than ignored whenever it's bought up.
It doesn't have to be a certain company.
You stop watching all movies. You tell them why.
The end.
It is as simple as that.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/57528/10-things-china-has-banned
Which yeah, is seriously fucked up. However, the movies which are banned are specifically about Tibet - not Tibetan characters from any movies about other things. If any one else has found any better examples that fit Dr. Strange feel free to chime in, I haven't found much on Google.
I'm not a big doctor strange fan at all, but I google searched "ancient one tibet" and came across http://marvel.com/universe/Ancient_One_(sorcerer)
So, there's that.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Thank you.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=lastairbender.htm
That quote tree was in reference to Iron Man 3.
What does Trevor Slattery in Iron Man 3 have to do with Tibet?
The only movies I've seen banned that had anything to do with Tibet were specifically about Tibet, unless you know examples I don't know about. Hardly a situation Dr. Strange is in. If The Last Airbender can get shown in China there's no reason a Tibetan* Ancient One shouldn't get a free pass.
I was wrong about China banning magic in films, it was ghosts.
* especially one who has no ties to Tibet, which they have numerous avenues to explore with Asian actors in the role
I was always under the impression the fire nation was Japan, and earth nation was China, and it was based on Japan's stance during WW2?
The Air Nomads were Tibet.
It's not a perfect 1:1 translation. Because storytelling.
The Fire Nation is itself a metaphor for Japan, and the Earth Kingdom is a metaphor for China.
OTOH, the specific invasion of the Tibertan inspired monks can be seen as a direct metaphor for China's invasion.
There's also the fact that the whole idea of uniting the four kingdoms can be taken as a metaphor for the original founding of China itself (i.e., the basic plot of "Hero", "The Emperor and the Assassin", etc).
Could be, but I believe it was this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
But how do you think the Chinese government would interpret it?
Especially since we're discussing the Shymalan version, where Fire Nation is no longer Japanese.
The Air Nomads are still clearly Tibetan. And you're still supposed to sympathize with them when they get invaded and see the invasion as completely wrong. Even if the specific invader isn't China -- that doesn't matter, because the movie is criticizing the invasion itself.
Where as Doctor Strange is making no such political commentary about Tibetan invasions.
Eh, I don't imagine they would see it differently.
Island asian nation invades land based asian nation, and attempts to force their rule on them.
I don't recall the actual air tribe locations being a part of the movie, they kind of just skipped all of that stuff, probably to avoid the tibetan culture references. I could be wrong though, because I don't want to remember that movie any more than I do, and you can't make me.
It took 24 people bending for 5 minutes to throw a rock.
One that isn't limited by race or sex.
If the industry becomes more open to casting people of color and women outside of roles written specifically for people of that race or sex, then it becomes less of a problem for roles that are notably for them to be recast.
Note that the problem won't go away entirely, because changing the sex or race of the character can still cause issues as in the case of "21".
Just stop imagining the white man as the default.
We already have stats that prove that the vast majority of moviegoers in the US and Canada are minorities and women (per capita) because the MPAA releases stats on that every year telling us that. Minority people are more likely to go to the theaters multiple times a year over white people.
http://documents.latimes.com/mpaa-theatrical-market-statistics-2014/
Minorities are more likely to attend more movies per year, but whites still make up the majority of ticket sales (63% in general and 54% per capita). And your source shows that men per capita attend movies more than women.
Disclaimer: before someone does it again, I'm not defending racism in anyway.
One step forward and one step back is not progress.
So for it to be a full step forward, it would have to be a... what? Asian woman? Would casting a black woman make it 1.5 steps?
Obama was elected President.
Some people still want a female President.
What's so confusing about this? Honestly, if you don't "get" this, you fundamentally don't "get" human beings. Not only can different people want different things, but the same person can want more than one "thing". (My favourite foods are burgers and fries. I ate a burger. I still want fries.)
This is a terrible analogy. At worst, it's one foot forward and the other remaining in place. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good and all that.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The problem is Dedwrekka is arguing that Obama being elected President wasn't progress at all, because he's a black man, instead of being ... I guess a black woman?
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]