It's sort of astounding that Johnson, Farage, and Gove were cunning enough to press Cameron into calling a referendum and trick a majority of voters into voting Leave, forcing Cameron to resign, and yet are too incompetent to actually obtain the leadership positions that were the whole goal of their machinations.
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
It's at least satisfying to see that for all his machinations, Gove is not only not leading, he's not even really in the running. He went all in and got... squat.
I hear his polling numbers from the ninth circle are spectacular
It's at least satisfying to see that for all his machinations, Gove is not only not leading, he's not even really in the running. He went all in and got... squat.
I hear his polling numbers from the ninth circle are spectacular
This is very true, pit fiends, fecal imps and Excrutiators love Gove
I really, really enjoy the scale of facial expressions, Gove is "Did I just shit my pants?", Fox is "Oh my god I definitely just shit my pants" and Crabb is "I just shit my pants in a crowded subway car"
It's weird how the political parties use a form of Proportional Representation (STV) to elect their leaders, but when it comes to actual elections we plebs are stuck with first past the post.
And by weird I mean total fucking bullshit.
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GrogMy sword is only steelin a useful shape.Registered Userregular
It's sort of astounding that Johnson, Farage, and Gove were cunning enough to press Cameron into calling a referendum and trick a majority of voters into voting Leave, forcing Cameron to resign, and yet are too incompetent to actually obtain the leadership positions that were the whole goal of their machinations.
I didn't hear it myself, but the morning of Johnson announcing himself out of the leadership contest (and before he'd stated this), there was a BBC politics correspondent saying that his impression was that Johnson didn't want Leave to win, but hoped that a close Remain victory would divide the country and damage Cameron's leadership enough that he could usurp him at the next General Election. Which seems pretty credible to me.
It's sort of astounding that Johnson, Farage, and Gove were cunning enough to press Cameron into calling a referendum and trick a majority of voters into voting Leave, forcing Cameron to resign, and yet are too incompetent to actually obtain the leadership positions that were the whole goal of their machinations.
I highly doubt this is the last we've seen of Farage or Johnson.
I awesomed this not because I think Farage's potential from-a-butt strategy is awesome, but because I thought it was some very interesting political commentary.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
Johnson is 100% going to be back in action - The late intervention by Gove stopped his current bid and his speech was focused on the time not being right, not that he couldn't do the job. He'll be hanging in the back to either reunite the party if it explodes now or building up his status as heir apparent for one more leadership cycle.
GrogMy sword is only steelin a useful shape.Registered Userregular
Bojo cares alot about how he is perceived. He saw the poisoned chalice Cameron was handing him and, shock horror, gets 'stabbed in the back' before he can take up the mantle. The headlines were literally "STABBED IN THE BACK". Compared to Gove he has come out of this pretty well in the public eye.
So the Chilcot report (about the Iraq war) comes out tomorrow, and it is expected that Jeremy Corbyn will call for Tony Blair to be tried for war crimes
We wouldn't want the left to shut up about trying Tony Blair for war crimes for five fucking minutes would we
Woah that's what the people want, Tube
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ZoelI suppose... I'd put it onRegistered Userregular
Is Corbyn going to be calling for an international court here? Or just in general?
A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
There is no indication at the moment that the actual report will call for Tony Blair to be tried for war crimes
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
So what's Corbyn's angle here? Is this a "genuinely believes it's the right thing to do/justice is its own reward" thing, an attempt to slap back at rivals within the party at didn't support him, or some combination thereof?
We wouldn't want the left to shut up about trying Tony Blair for war crimes for five fucking minutes would we
His lies and the actions of his government caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, and have directly lead to the middle east becoming even more unstable, causing suffering to millions.
I'm not sure I'd call him a war criminal in the purest sense of the term, but he absolutely should be held to account for his actions.
Yeah. Seems like Brexit won't really happen. The elites of all the parties except UKIP aren't in favor. My guess is that the next PM won't schedule Article 50 invocation for another year or more. That's plenty of time for popular opinion to turn around. It only won 52-48.
Yeah. Seems like Brexit won't really happen. The elites of all the parties except UKIP aren't in favor. My guess is that the next PM won't schedule Article 50 invocation for another year or more. That's plenty of time for popular opinion to turn around. It only won 52-48.
I'm sure the EU and everyone else would be super happy to have the UK in a will-they-won't-they holding pattern for a year.
Yeah. Seems like Brexit won't really happen. The elites of all the parties except UKIP aren't in favor. My guess is that the next PM won't schedule Article 50 invocation for another year or more. That's plenty of time for popular opinion to turn around. It only won 52-48.
I'm sure the EU and everyone else would be super happy to have the UK in a will-they-won't-they holding pattern for a year.
I bet, once they figure it out, the news industry won't mind a bit.
Yeah. Seems like Brexit won't really happen. The elites of all the parties except UKIP aren't in favor. My guess is that the next PM won't schedule Article 50 invocation for another year or more. That's plenty of time for popular opinion to turn around. It only won 52-48.
I'm sure the EU and everyone else would be super happy to have the UK in a will-they-won't-they holding pattern for a year.
The problem is the EU doesn't have any influence on that.
I think there will be a new election before Article 50.
Yeah. Seems like Brexit won't really happen. The elites of all the parties except UKIP aren't in favor. My guess is that the next PM won't schedule Article 50 invocation for another year or more. That's plenty of time for popular opinion to turn around. It only won 52-48.
I'm sure the EU and everyone else would be super happy to have the UK in a will-they-won't-they holding pattern for a year.
The problem is the EU doesn't have any influence on that.
I think there will be a new election before Article 50.
The EU can't force it to happen
but they 100% have influence both economic and political to make it happen faster
Yeah. Seems like Brexit won't really happen. The elites of all the parties except UKIP aren't in favor. My guess is that the next PM won't schedule Article 50 invocation for another year or more. That's plenty of time for popular opinion to turn around. It only won 52-48.
I'm sure the EU and everyone else would be super happy to have the UK in a will-they-won't-they holding pattern for a year.
The problem is the EU doesn't have any influence on that.
I think there will be a new election before Article 50.
The next general election is scheduled for 2020. There may be a new election before that, but Tory leadership say that they don't plan on calling a general election solely to sort out Brexit.
There just aren't any incentives to rush it. The EU can't force it, and the populace won't get to vote on it again for nearly four years. That's plenty of time for something to change. There will be political and economic uncertainly until something happens one way or another, but, if you're a Remainer (and most of parliament are, including most of the Tories) then that uncertainty is much better than the absolute disaster of actually leaving.
So if it ends up being May, 2020, with no Article 50 having been invoked, then what's the downside for the Tory majority? That UKIP takes parliament from you? Seems unlikely. A Leave vote from 2016 isn't a UKIP vote in 2020. A 52-48 referendum victory from four years ago and ￡5 may well get you a cup of tea in 2020, but it's probably not enough to take control of the government.
Would there seriously be no major consequences for the Tories if they just drug their feet and let things stew for the next 4 years?
I guess it would depend on what you mean by "major consequences". The longer they go without triggering article 50, the louder their Leavers and UKIP will scream, but... how major is that, really? If you're a Tory MP who was in favor of remaining, do you want to aggressively implement the result of a fairly close but non-binding referendum, or do you want your name to go down in history for being part of the parliament that blew up the UK?
In hindsight, Cameron was dumb for letting the Brexit referendum happen, but you can also understand what he was thinking given that he expected Remain to win: get the vote done early in his term, and (assuming Remain won), he'd then have the moral authority to tell the Eurosceptics in his own party to sit down and shut up for the next three years. And now, even though Leave won, he made sure that there's plenty of time to thwart Brexit by resigning without kicking off Article 50. The majority of parliament who were opposed to Brexit have years to keep it from happening.
You don't get to ignore the democratic process when it doesn't turn up the result you wanted. Article 50 should be invoked. "Oh wait, but this time it's different because-" nope. Democracy. Voting. Consequences.
Yea, in practical terms, they apparently can ignore the democratic process. By time 2020 comes around the demographics will have shifted (the old people would've died) enough for Leave to no longer be a majority of voters.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
You don't get to ignore the democratic process when it doesn't turn up the result you wanted. Article 50 should be invoked. "Oh wait, but this time it's different because-" nope. Democracy. Voting. Consequences.
On the other hand, I expect a government to govern, and invoking Article 50 would be an awful form of governance.
You don't get to ignore the democratic process when it doesn't turn up the result you wanted. Article 50 should be invoked. "Oh wait, but this time it's different because-" nope. Democracy. Voting. Consequences.
The idea of the British govt ignoring the vote scares me, I admit, even though in theory there would be no direct consequences on the US. As mentioned in this thread and elsewhere, there's already a whiff of fascism coming back into vogue, and there's nothing less democratic than for a government to nullify a popular vote, regardless of how close. Some people would say that a government ignoring the vote is why we need fascism "to protect us". shudder.
Cambiata on
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
Posts
I hear his polling numbers from the ninth circle are spectacular
This is very true, pit fiends, fecal imps and Excrutiators love Gove
And by weird I mean total fucking bullshit.
I highly doubt this is the last we've seen of Farage or Johnson.
I awesomed this not because I think Farage's potential from-a-butt strategy is awesome, but because I thought it was some very interesting political commentary.
On my sleeve, let the runway start
We wouldn't want the left to shut up about trying Tony Blair for war crimes for five fucking minutes would we
Woah that's what the people want, Tube
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
His lies and the actions of his government caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, and have directly lead to the middle east becoming even more unstable, causing suffering to millions.
I'm not sure I'd call him a war criminal in the purest sense of the term, but he absolutely should be held to account for his actions.
I doubt anything will actually happen though.
Yeah. Seems like Brexit won't really happen. The elites of all the parties except UKIP aren't in favor. My guess is that the next PM won't schedule Article 50 invocation for another year or more. That's plenty of time for popular opinion to turn around. It only won 52-48.
I'm sure the EU and everyone else would be super happy to have the UK in a will-they-won't-they holding pattern for a year.
I bet, once they figure it out, the news industry won't mind a bit.
The problem is the EU doesn't have any influence on that.
I think there will be a new election before Article 50.
The EU can't force it to happen
but they 100% have influence both economic and political to make it happen faster
Winchester?
The next general election is scheduled for 2020. There may be a new election before that, but Tory leadership say that they don't plan on calling a general election solely to sort out Brexit.
There just aren't any incentives to rush it. The EU can't force it, and the populace won't get to vote on it again for nearly four years. That's plenty of time for something to change. There will be political and economic uncertainly until something happens one way or another, but, if you're a Remainer (and most of parliament are, including most of the Tories) then that uncertainty is much better than the absolute disaster of actually leaving.
So if it ends up being May, 2020, with no Article 50 having been invoked, then what's the downside for the Tory majority? That UKIP takes parliament from you? Seems unlikely. A Leave vote from 2016 isn't a UKIP vote in 2020. A 52-48 referendum victory from four years ago and ￡5 may well get you a cup of tea in 2020, but it's probably not enough to take control of the government.
I guess it would depend on what you mean by "major consequences". The longer they go without triggering article 50, the louder their Leavers and UKIP will scream, but... how major is that, really? If you're a Tory MP who was in favor of remaining, do you want to aggressively implement the result of a fairly close but non-binding referendum, or do you want your name to go down in history for being part of the parliament that blew up the UK?
In hindsight, Cameron was dumb for letting the Brexit referendum happen, but you can also understand what he was thinking given that he expected Remain to win: get the vote done early in his term, and (assuming Remain won), he'd then have the moral authority to tell the Eurosceptics in his own party to sit down and shut up for the next three years. And now, even though Leave won, he made sure that there's plenty of time to thwart Brexit by resigning without kicking off Article 50. The majority of parliament who were opposed to Brexit have years to keep it from happening.
On the other hand, I expect a government to govern, and invoking Article 50 would be an awful form of governance.
The idea of the British govt ignoring the vote scares me, I admit, even though in theory there would be no direct consequences on the US. As mentioned in this thread and elsewhere, there's already a whiff of fascism coming back into vogue, and there's nothing less democratic than for a government to nullify a popular vote, regardless of how close. Some people would say that a government ignoring the vote is why we need fascism "to protect us". shudder.
On my sleeve, let the runway start
it's the part of the treaty that makes the UK part of the EU which specifies the steps needed to revoke the treaty and exit the EU.
Doesn't fucking matter. It was, in principle, a democratic vote to leave the EU. The country spoke, and it spoke dumb.