The TPP would effect laws including intellectual property rights, food and product safety and environmental standards. Just about any regulation on how corporations do business would effectively be up for legal dispute in trade tribunals that subvert the sovereignty of nations allowing corporations to override and nullify laws. Under the TPP corporations effected by laws that would enforce environmental regulations for example could take the United States to a tribunal to change the law and those rulings would be legally binding. Under the TPP net neutrality legislation like SOPA could be easily passed. Furthermore just like NAFTA lead to the loss of jobs and lower wages the TPP would be disastrous for the middle class.
...so no I'm not going to give Hillary Clinton or the DNC establishment credit or be polite when they support this agreement. Because even if they otherwise adopt the most progressive policies imaginable this is still handing the keys to our legislative branch over to moneyed interests that don't care about the Democratic Party or America or whether or not your tap water catches fire.
You're overlaying NAFTA on an existing trend and trying to blame it for things that were already happening.
NAFTA didn't really do much of anything economically, anyone saying it was a disaster is wrong, and anyone saying it was super great is wrong.
NAFTA has been pretty good for Canadians, actually. Better investments in automotive production, increased oil exports worldwide, more shipments of beef, agricultural products, wood and paper products south of the border, and exports of mining products. Higher investment from American companies in tech sectors. Also made it much easier for skilled professionals to move between countries to pursue work through a better visa process, increased the level of secondary education throughout the populace and helped to bolster the middle-class.
Makes me think I really should get a dashboard cam. You never know when you're gonna need it.
I got a dashboard cam after a cop cited my wife for driving 90 in a 60 zone. She was speeding at 70 per her account and I don't think her Honda can even go 90.
Tossrocktoo weird to livetoo rare to dieRegistered Userregular
The success of the Hillary image rehabilitation/Sanders character assassination program has really been astounding. I guess all those bux to Correct The Record really paid off. The amount of vitriol generated over the fact that Sanders hasn't given a concession speech within some imaginary timetable (despite having said that he won't be the nominee, he will support the democratic candidate, he is absolutely opposed to Trump etc) is seriously mindboggling. Props to Bendery and the rest who are still resisting the herd mentality around here. I hope Sanders takes it to the convention, and uses every ounce of leverage he has to combat the neoliberal agenda in favor of actual progressive policy.
+17
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PwnanObrienHe's right, life sucks.Registered Userregular
The TPP would effect laws including intellectual property rights, food and product safety and environmental standards. Just about any regulation on how corporations do business would effectively be up for legal dispute in trade tribunals that subvert the sovereignty of nations allowing corporations to override and nullify laws. Under the TPP corporations effected by laws that would enforce environmental regulations for example could take the United States to a tribunal to change the law and those rulings would be legally binding. Under the TPP net neutrality legislation like SOPA could be easily passed. Furthermore just like NAFTA lead to the loss of jobs and lower wages the TPP would be disastrous for the middle class.
...so no I'm not going to give Hillary Clinton or the DNC establishment credit or be polite when they support this agreement. Because even if they otherwise adopt the most progressive policies imaginable this is still handing the keys to our legislative branch over to moneyed interests that don't care about the Democratic Party or America or whether or not your tap water catches fire.
You're overlaying NAFTA on an existing trend and trying to blame it for things that were already happening.
NAFTA didn't really do much of anything economically, anyone saying it was a disaster is wrong, and anyone saying it was super great is wrong.
As somebody who used to live in Gary Indiana...
no. NAFTA may not have started that landslide but it absolutely made things an order of magnitude worse for a lot of manufacturing and agricultural towns. Gary's era of being a civil rights boom town where men of color indisputably won their equality through literally bending steel was already on the wane. The more rural areas further south and their bygone era of moo cows and corn fields were even past their prime by the late 90s. Time marches on and people need to learn new ways to make a living because we've become a commerce, finance, arts, tech and science based globalized economy. Cool. I actually like that a lot more than the old model. The problem with NAFTA is that it pulled the rug out from whole regions without any plan as to how those places were meant to make that transition.
Bernie Sanders signaled a formal endorsement of Hillary Clinton is imminent, saying in an interview that Republican Donald Trump is “a pathological liar” and that he’ll throw his full support behind electing his rival for the Democratic nomination as president.
“We have got to do everything that we can to defeat Donald Trump and elect Hillary Clinton,” the Vermont senator said in an interview Thursday with Bloomberg’s Albert R. Hunt for PBS’s “Charlie Rose” program. “I don’t honestly know how we would survive four years of a Donald Trump” as president.
I'm just glad it seems this will be wrapped up before the conventions. I admit to having some harsh feelings toward Sanders during the last few months regarding how he's played out the tail end of his campaign, but now, honestly, I mostly just feel relief. I'm ready to move on.
Good grief, I don't know how we would survive four weeks, but Bernie, what the hell has been stopping you from endorsing her for the last 6 weeks?
The dnc hasn't committed to many of the policies and views Bernie is fighting for, he doesn't owe HRC or the DNC any endorsement. He'll use it as leverage and once policy that he can agree with is put in place the endorsement will be made.
Bernie Sanders signaled a formal endorsement of Hillary Clinton is imminent, saying in an interview that Republican Donald Trump is “a pathological liar” and that he’ll throw his full support behind electing his rival for the Democratic nomination as president.
“We have got to do everything that we can to defeat Donald Trump and elect Hillary Clinton,” the Vermont senator said in an interview Thursday with Bloomberg’s Albert R. Hunt for PBS’s “Charlie Rose” program. “I don’t honestly know how we would survive four years of a Donald Trump” as president.
I'm just glad it seems this will be wrapped up before the conventions. I admit to having some harsh feelings toward Sanders during the last few months regarding how he's played out the tail end of his campaign, but now, honestly, I mostly just feel relief. I'm ready to move on.
Good grief, I don't know how we would survive four weeks, but Bernie, what the hell has been stopping you from endorsing her for the last 6 weeks?
The dnc hasn't committed to many of the policies and views Bernie is fighting for, he doesn't owe HRC or the DNC any endorsement. He'll use it as leverage and once policy that he can agree with is put in place the endorsement will be made.
He at least owes them a concession speech, which he has yet to give.
Why?
because he lost
... But he hasn't yet The contest isn't over till the convention. Is Hillary going to win? Yes, at the convention.
Which hasn't happened
I too like when the football team down 40 with a minute left in the 4th keeps calling timeout to try and get the ball back one last time.
Hilarious, because if you actually thought about your metaphor for ten seconds, it would actually be more like the team that's down by forty giving up and walking off before the game was over. Which, you know, isn't how it works.
+8
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Even Hillary forced a floor vote at the previous Democratic convention, well after it was clear she had lost to Obama in delegate count. She interrupted it to give it to him by acclamation, but the vote had started, and there was a paper ballot too. I expect Sanders to do something similar, just to emphasize that there are still a lot of people and delegates that he won over.
The TPP would effect laws including intellectual property rights, food and product safety and environmental standards. Just about any regulation on how corporations do business would effectively be up for legal dispute in trade tribunals that subvert the sovereignty of nations allowing corporations to override and nullify laws. Under the TPP corporations effected by laws that would enforce environmental regulations for example could take the United States to a tribunal to change the law and those rulings would be legally binding. Under the TPP net neutrality legislation like SOPA could be easily passed. Furthermore just like NAFTA lead to the loss of jobs and lower wages the TPP would be disastrous for the middle class.
...so no I'm not going to give Hillary Clinton or the DNC establishment credit or be polite when they support this agreement. Because even if they otherwise adopt the most progressive policies imaginable this is still handing the keys to our legislative branch over to moneyed interests that don't care about the Democratic Party or America or whether or not your tap water catches fire.
You're overlaying NAFTA on an existing trend and trying to blame it for things that were already happening.
NAFTA didn't really do much of anything economically, anyone saying it was a disaster is wrong, and anyone saying it was super great is wrong.
As somebody who used to live in Gary Indiana...
no. NAFTA may not have started that landslide but it absolutely made things an order of magnitude worse for a lot of manufacturing and agricultural towns. Gary's era of being a civil rights boom town where men of color indisputably won their equality through literally bending steel was already on the wane. The more rural areas further south and their bygone era of moo cows and corn fields were even past their prime by the late 90s. Time marches on and people need to learn new ways to make a living because we've become a commerce, finance, arts, tech and science based globalized economy. Cool. I actually like that a lot more than the old model. The problem with NAFTA is that it pulled the rug out from whole regions without any plan as to how those places were meant to make that transition.
Whatever, you've turned this into an emotional argument instead of one on economics and facts. Pretty much all research on NAFTA says that it was a small net positive economically and any manufacturing job losses were already dead jobs walking. Efficiency in manufacturing ensured that.
Bernie Sanders signaled a formal endorsement of Hillary Clinton is imminent, saying in an interview that Republican Donald Trump is “a pathological liar” and that he’ll throw his full support behind electing his rival for the Democratic nomination as president.
“We have got to do everything that we can to defeat Donald Trump and elect Hillary Clinton,” the Vermont senator said in an interview Thursday with Bloomberg’s Albert R. Hunt for PBS’s “Charlie Rose” program. “I don’t honestly know how we would survive four years of a Donald Trump” as president.
I'm just glad it seems this will be wrapped up before the conventions. I admit to having some harsh feelings toward Sanders during the last few months regarding how he's played out the tail end of his campaign, but now, honestly, I mostly just feel relief. I'm ready to move on.
Good grief, I don't know how we would survive four weeks, but Bernie, what the hell has been stopping you from endorsing her for the last 6 weeks?
The dnc hasn't committed to many of the policies and views Bernie is fighting for, he doesn't owe HRC or the DNC any endorsement. He'll use it as leverage and once policy that he can agree with is put in place the endorsement will be made.
He at least owes them a concession speech, which he has yet to give.
Why?
because he lost
... But he hasn't yet The contest isn't over till the convention. Is Hillary going to win? Yes, at the convention.
Which hasn't happened
I too like when the football team down 40 with a minute left in the 4th keeps calling timeout to try and get the ball back one last time.
Your analogy falls flat, how about. "It's always great when the Olympic team in second place during the relay race says "Fuck it" and walks off the field.
Sanders not formally conceding impedes nothing and doesn't delay Hillary's victory.
The success of the Hillary image rehabilitation/Sanders character assassination program has really been astounding. I guess all those bux to Correct The Record really paid off. The amount of vitriol generated over the fact that Sanders hasn't given a concession speech within some imaginary timetable (despite having said that he won't be the nominee, he will support the democratic candidate, he is absolutely opposed to Trump etc) is seriously mindboggling. Props to Bendery and the rest who are still resisting the herd mentality around here. I hope Sanders takes it to the convention, and uses every ounce of leverage he has to combat the neoliberal agenda in favor of actual progressive policy.
I was a Sanders fan at first. I think he's being a snot now. I also don't think he's doing anything to push the party left right now. I think Hillary is pushing the party left. Sanders is just stamping his feet like a child.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
+24
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IlpalaJust this guy, y'knowTexasRegistered Userregular
If we're determined to force a sports analogy, let's say it's like if going into the bottom of the 9th, the home team is winning, but the away team goes back out to play defense anyway shouting "No, cmon, let's play it out."
FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu (on Siren), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
+10
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NogsCrap, crap, mega crap.Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered Userregular
edited July 2016
as I understand it, Sanders conceding too early would weaken his delegates as they go into the convention.
the delegates as they roll up from district to state to national levels are the ones that actually define the party's platform.
sander's delegates are the ones that are bringing his ideas to the democratic party. they are the ones doing the real progressive change in this whole system.
the way I see it is Sanders stepping out early would weaken their positions in arguing with Hillary delegates on platform specifics.
Maybe i'm wrong on that, but that's how I understand it, and so I am all for Sanders staying in until the last minute possible.
if we're doing a sports analogy, it's a bunch of people complaining about something that happens in a sports game, when none of it will matter after the game is over
Bernie Sanders signaled a formal endorsement of Hillary Clinton is imminent, saying in an interview that Republican Donald Trump is “a pathological liar” and that he’ll throw his full support behind electing his rival for the Democratic nomination as president.
“We have got to do everything that we can to defeat Donald Trump and elect Hillary Clinton,” the Vermont senator said in an interview Thursday with Bloomberg’s Albert R. Hunt for PBS’s “Charlie Rose” program. “I don’t honestly know how we would survive four years of a Donald Trump” as president.
I'm just glad it seems this will be wrapped up before the conventions. I admit to having some harsh feelings toward Sanders during the last few months regarding how he's played out the tail end of his campaign, but now, honestly, I mostly just feel relief. I'm ready to move on.
Good grief, I don't know how we would survive four weeks, but Bernie, what the hell has been stopping you from endorsing her for the last 6 weeks?
The dnc hasn't committed to many of the policies and views Bernie is fighting for, he doesn't owe HRC or the DNC any endorsement. He'll use it as leverage and once policy that he can agree with is put in place the endorsement will be made.
He at least owes them a concession speech, which he has yet to give.
Why?
because he lost
... But he hasn't yet The contest isn't over till the convention. Is Hillary going to win? Yes, at the convention.
Which hasn't happened
I too like when the football team down 40 with a minute left in the 4th keeps calling timeout to try and get the ball back one last time.
Your analogy falls flat, how about. "It's always great when the Olympic team in second place during the relay race says "Fuck it" and walks off the field.
Sanders not formally conceding impedes nothing and doesn't delay Hillary's victory.
Bernie Sanders signaled a formal endorsement of Hillary Clinton is imminent, saying in an interview that Republican Donald Trump is “a pathological liar” and that he’ll throw his full support behind electing his rival for the Democratic nomination as president.
“We have got to do everything that we can to defeat Donald Trump and elect Hillary Clinton,” the Vermont senator said in an interview Thursday with Bloomberg’s Albert R. Hunt for PBS’s “Charlie Rose” program. “I don’t honestly know how we would survive four years of a Donald Trump” as president.
I'm just glad it seems this will be wrapped up before the conventions. I admit to having some harsh feelings toward Sanders during the last few months regarding how he's played out the tail end of his campaign, but now, honestly, I mostly just feel relief. I'm ready to move on.
Good grief, I don't know how we would survive four weeks, but Bernie, what the hell has been stopping you from endorsing her for the last 6 weeks?
The dnc hasn't committed to many of the policies and views Bernie is fighting for, he doesn't owe HRC or the DNC any endorsement. He'll use it as leverage and once policy that he can agree with is put in place the endorsement will be made.
He at least owes them a concession speech, which he has yet to give.
Why?
because he lost
... But he hasn't yet The contest isn't over till the convention. Is Hillary going to win? Yes, at the convention.
Which hasn't happened
I too like when the football team down 40 with a minute left in the 4th keeps calling timeout to try and get the ball back one last time.
Your analogy falls flat, how about. "It's always great when the Olympic team in second place during the relay race says "Fuck it" and walks off the field.
Sanders not formally conceding impedes nothing and doesn't delay Hillary's victory.
Holy christ
He lost
It's over
Fucking deal with it
ah yes, the ideal route for political and social progression
+4
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
Isn't it like... the longer the game goes on the weaker the the winning team will be when it goes into the final game and if you lose the final game everyone gets trapped in the foundations of a wall on the Mexican border
The length of leadership contests is a bit long in the American political cycle
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Ho boy, this again.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The success of the Hillary image rehabilitation/Sanders character assassination program has really been astounding. I guess all those bux to Correct The Record really paid off. The amount of vitriol generated over the fact that Sanders hasn't given a concession speech within some imaginary timetable (despite having said that he won't be the nominee, he will support the democratic candidate, he is absolutely opposed to Trump etc) is seriously mindboggling. Props to Bendery and the rest who are still resisting the herd mentality around here. I hope Sanders takes it to the convention, and uses every ounce of leverage he has to combat the neoliberal agenda in favor of actual progressive policy.
this attitude is exactly why everyone can't stand sanders anymore
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
like a lot of us used to like sanders. I would have voted for him if I was registered as a democrat(it's complicated. well not really but) but then he dug in, threw a tantrum, and his supporters accused everyone OF BEING IN THE HILLARY BIG MONEY POCKETS WAKE UP SHEEPLE and it's a bunch of bullshit and we're all fucking tired of it
The success of the Hillary image rehabilitation/Sanders character assassination program has really been astounding. I guess all those bux to Correct The Record really paid off. The amount of vitriol generated over the fact that Sanders hasn't given a concession speech within some imaginary timetable (despite having said that he won't be the nominee, he will support the democratic candidate, he is absolutely opposed to Trump etc) is seriously mindboggling. Props to Bendery and the rest who are still resisting the herd mentality around here. I hope Sanders takes it to the convention, and uses every ounce of leverage he has to combat the neoliberal agenda in favor of actual progressive policy.
I was a Sanders fan at first. I think he's being a snot now. I also don't think he's doing anything to push the party left right now. I think Hillary is pushing the party left. Sanders is just stamping his feet like a child.
HRC is the party, she didn't need to move left and made no effort to until Sanders was in the picture;
Example;
Hillary wanted to offer tuition and make students work for it. Sanders said no, education is a right, it shouldn't have to be earned.
It resonated with the young voter base, and now Clinton has said "okay, as long as your family can't afford it you can go for free"
I can't help but notice Bernie talking about finally conceding after the email nontroversy is dealt with. Seems like the GOP wasn't the only ones let down by Comey.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The TPP would effect laws including intellectual property rights, food and product safety and environmental standards. Just about any regulation on how corporations do business would effectively be up for legal dispute in trade tribunals that subvert the sovereignty of nations allowing corporations to override and nullify laws. Under the TPP corporations effected by laws that would enforce environmental regulations for example could take the United States to a tribunal to change the law and those rulings would be legally binding. Under the TPP net neutrality legislation like SOPA could be easily passed. Furthermore just like NAFTA lead to the loss of jobs and lower wages the TPP would be disastrous for the middle class.
...so no I'm not going to give Hillary Clinton or the DNC establishment credit or be polite when they support this agreement. Because even if they otherwise adopt the most progressive policies imaginable this is still handing the keys to our legislative branch over to moneyed interests that don't care about the Democratic Party or America or whether or not your tap water catches fire.
You're overlaying NAFTA on an existing trend and trying to blame it for things that were already happening.
NAFTA didn't really do much of anything economically, anyone saying it was a disaster is wrong, and anyone saying it was super great is wrong.
As somebody who used to live in Gary Indiana...
no. NAFTA may not have started that landslide but it absolutely made things an order of magnitude worse for a lot of manufacturing and agricultural towns. Gary's era of being a civil rights boom town where men of color indisputably won their equality through literally bending steel was already on the wane. The more rural areas further south and their bygone era of moo cows and corn fields were even past their prime by the late 90s. Time marches on and people need to learn new ways to make a living because we've become a commerce, finance, arts, tech and science based globalized economy. Cool. I actually like that a lot more than the old model. The problem with NAFTA is that it pulled the rug out from whole regions without any plan as to how those places were meant to make that transition.
Woah @PwnanObrien your from my area? (I live like 15 minutes from Gary)
And yes as someone who has many family members who use to work for the Steel Mills and some who do. The original Clinton area was absolutely the final set of nails in the coffin for the area. Suddenly all the auto manufacturers in Detroit and the buildings in Chicago didn't need Gary Steel, because it was cheaper to buy and import China Steel. It fucked the economy in this area irreparably. Instead of a slow slide into a changing economy, 3 of the 4 major steel mills went out of business, and thousands had no jobs.
Bernie Sanders signaled a formal endorsement of Hillary Clinton is imminent, saying in an interview that Republican Donald Trump is “a pathological liar” and that he’ll throw his full support behind electing his rival for the Democratic nomination as president.
“We have got to do everything that we can to defeat Donald Trump and elect Hillary Clinton,” the Vermont senator said in an interview Thursday with Bloomberg’s Albert R. Hunt for PBS’s “Charlie Rose” program. “I don’t honestly know how we would survive four years of a Donald Trump” as president.
I'm just glad it seems this will be wrapped up before the conventions. I admit to having some harsh feelings toward Sanders during the last few months regarding how he's played out the tail end of his campaign, but now, honestly, I mostly just feel relief. I'm ready to move on.
Good grief, I don't know how we would survive four weeks, but Bernie, what the hell has been stopping you from endorsing her for the last 6 weeks?
The dnc hasn't committed to many of the policies and views Bernie is fighting for, he doesn't owe HRC or the DNC any endorsement. He'll use it as leverage and once policy that he can agree with is put in place the endorsement will be made.
The TPP would effect laws including intellectual property rights, food and product safety and environmental standards. Just about any regulation on how corporations do business would effectively be up for legal dispute in trade tribunals that subvert the sovereignty of nations allowing corporations to override and nullify laws. Under the TPP corporations effected by laws that would enforce environmental regulations for example could take the United States to a tribunal to change the law and those rulings would be legally binding. Under the TPP net neutrality legislation like SOPA could be easily passed. Furthermore just like NAFTA lead to the loss of jobs and lower wages the TPP would be disastrous for the middle class.
...so no I'm not going to give Hillary Clinton or the DNC establishment credit or be polite when they support this agreement. Because even if they otherwise adopt the most progressive policies imaginable this is still handing the keys to our legislative branch over to moneyed interests that don't care about the Democratic Party or America or whether or not your tap water catches fire.
You're overlaying NAFTA on an existing trend and trying to blame it for things that were already happening.
NAFTA didn't really do much of anything economically, anyone saying it was a disaster is wrong, and anyone saying it was super great is wrong.
As somebody who used to live in Gary Indiana...
no. NAFTA may not have started that landslide but it absolutely made things an order of magnitude worse for a lot of manufacturing and agricultural towns. Gary's era of being a civil rights boom town where men of color indisputably won their equality through literally bending steel was already on the wane. The more rural areas further south and their bygone era of moo cows and corn fields were even past their prime by the late 90s. Time marches on and people need to learn new ways to make a living because we've become a commerce, finance, arts, tech and science based globalized economy. Cool. I actually like that a lot more than the old model. The problem with NAFTA is that it pulled the rug out from whole regions without any plan as to how those places were meant to make that transition.
Woah @PwnanObrien your from my area? (I live like 15 minutes from Gary)
And yes as someone who has many family members who use to work for the Steel Mills and some who do. The original Clinton area was absolutely the final set of nails in the coffin for the area. Suddenly all the auto manufacturers in Detroit and the buildings in Chicago didn't need Gary Steel, because it was cheaper to buy and import China Steel. It fucked the economy in this area irreparably. Instead of a slow slide into a changing economy, 3 of the 4 major steel mills went out of business, and thousands had no jobs.
Yeah, but the chart says...
+1
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
The success of the Hillary image rehabilitation/Sanders character assassination program has really been astounding. I guess all those bux to Correct The Record really paid off. The amount of vitriol generated over the fact that Sanders hasn't given a concession speech within some imaginary timetable (despite having said that he won't be the nominee, he will support the democratic candidate, he is absolutely opposed to Trump etc) is seriously mindboggling. Props to Bendery and the rest who are still resisting the herd mentality around here. I hope Sanders takes it to the convention, and uses every ounce of leverage he has to combat the neoliberal agenda in favor of actual progressive policy.
I was a Sanders fan at first. I think he's being a snot now. I also don't think he's doing anything to push the party left right now. I think Hillary is pushing the party left. Sanders is just stamping his feet like a child.
HRC is the party, she didn't need to move left and made no effort to until Sanders was in the picture;
Example;
Hillary wanted to offer tuition and make students work for it. Sanders said no, education is a right, it shouldn't have to be earned.
It resonated with the young voter base, and now Clinton has said "okay, as long as your family can't afford it you can go for free"
like a lot of us used to like sanders. I would have voted for him if I was registered as a democrat(it's complicated. well not really but) but then he dug in, threw a tantrum, and his supporters accused everyone OF BEING IN THE HILLARY BIG MONEY POCKETS WAKE UP SHEEPLE and it's a bunch of bullshit and we're all fucking tired of it
Hmm, well from my perspective, all I see is a lot of people repeating a false narrative about tantrums without any substantive points, while talking down and talking over people with legitimate concerns about Hillary's platform (Hurray drone strikes! Hurray Goldman Sachs!). Like, the number of times I've seen people in this thread effectively say "DO YOU WANT TRUMP TO WIN???" is off the charts.
And then of course, if you bring up any of these matters of public record, you get accused of being crazy, a conspiracy theorist, sheeple, etc. So that's super cool!
Even Hillary forced a floor vote at the previous Democratic convention, well after it was clear she had lost to Obama in delegate count. She interrupted it to give it to him by acclamation, but the vote had started, and there was a paper ballot too. I expect Sanders to do something similar, just to emphasize that there are still a lot of people and delegates that he won over.
That was theater, she had already conceded months prior to that.
China ain't in NAFTA, so not sure how that's relevant.
Edit: and as for dumping on the chart, dismissing facts because they disagree with your worldview is what we lambast the gop for all the time. Why is your anecdote a special snowflake.
I mean, I definitely have an outsider view here, and it's no doubt tainted by the fact that this election process takes for fucking ever and I can't wait for it to be done so I can stop hearing about it
But from everything I've read, it sounds like the better place for Sanders at the moment is to promote his ideas within the party from his seat in government, which is inherently easier to do if you aren't burning bridges out of ego, and to try to keep his followers from being disenfranchised from politics so they, too, can push for change and be a vocal part of the party
And it seems like him continuing to push for the presidential race is just sapping the strength out of what he can achieve within the political machine, and contributing to that disenfranchisement
I mean, how many political changes has he managed to affect in the DNC platform since he was essentially out of the running for the nomination? All I see, based on the few Bernie bros on my Facebook, is that his contribution to demonizing Hilary (since trying to push for delegates to switch allegiance) has only managed to make his followers feel more like he was forced out because of corruption or party politics, and it makes me doubt that they're going to end up voting for the party at all
The longer he makes this go, the more it makes him seem like an old man yelling at a cloud, and less like a political force for change, which is tragic from the view of improving socialist programs in the US that it so desperately needs
I can't help but notice Bernie talking about finally conceding after the email nontroversy is dealt with. Seems like the GOP wasn't the only ones let down by Comey.
shit, i dunno, what if it had gone the other way and she was indicted and bernie had already dropped out. what kind of garabage fire would we have then? trump running un-opposed or some kind of crazy last minute DNC scramble? I'm glad bernie stuck around until at least then, even it it was a small small chance of anything happening.
Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Hillary herself had a convo with Bernie to be like "hey, stay until after this thing, just in case shit breaks bad"
like a lot of us used to like sanders. I would have voted for him if I was registered as a democrat(it's complicated. well not really but) but then he dug in, threw a tantrum, and his supporters accused everyone OF BEING IN THE HILLARY BIG MONEY POCKETS WAKE UP SHEEPLE and it's a bunch of bullshit and we're all fucking tired of it
Hmm, well from my perspective, all I see is a lot of people repeating a false narrative about tantrums without any substantive points, while talking down and talking over people with legitimate concerns about Hillary's platform (Hurray drone strikes! Hurray Goldman Sachs!). Like, the number of times I've seen people in this thread effectively say "DO YOU WANT TRUMP TO WIN???" is off the charts.
And then of course, if you bring up any of these matters of public record, you get accused of being crazy, a conspiracy theorist, sheeple, etc. So that's super cool!
oh yeah lets focus on sander's platform of everyone gets all this stuff. how are we going to do it? well uh, you see. oh right he has no way of doing anything that isn't rooted in fantasy land
and my last thought is the idea that everyone is turning on sanders because of character assassination, when clinton has been facing that for the past 30 years. how ironic
I really want to know what either party wants to due about the current amount of Federal Student Loan debt. It may seem selfish since I am in the boat now, but I cared about it before I had loans to pay off, but no one seems to be talking about it.
I know the argument of "well you took the loans out" and its true, we did, but its because we had to get crazy expensive degrees to get jobs. And while I'm not so bad (I qualified for income based repayment) I know people who are paying $800-$1000 a month to pay off their student loans. Imagine what that could buy, new cars, a home, diamonds those things that help keep the economy flowing.
I can't help but notice Bernie talking about finally conceding after the email nontroversy is dealt with. Seems like the GOP wasn't the only ones let down by Comey.
shit, i dunno, what if it had gone the other way and she was indicted and bernie had already dropped out. what kind of garabage fire would we have then? trump running un-opposed or some kind of crazy last minute DNC scramble? I'm glad bernie stuck around until at least then, even it it was a small small chance of anything happening.
Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Hillary herself had a convo with Bernie to be like "hey, stay until after this thing, just in case shit breaks bad"
It was always going to amount to nothing. No way hillary would have told bernie to stay in on the off chance Comey wanted to torpedo his career. And if she did get indicted than the convention becomes a cluster fuck, whether bernie dropped or not, you can't lose the contest and win because the other person got indicted. We'd probably end up with Joe Biden as nominee and lose.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I can't help but notice Bernie talking about finally conceding after the email nontroversy is dealt with. Seems like the GOP wasn't the only ones let down by Comey.
shit, i dunno, what if it had gone the other way and she was indicted and bernie had already dropped out. what kind of garabage fire would we have then? trump running un-opposed or some kind of crazy last minute DNC scramble? I'm glad bernie stuck around until at least then, even it it was a small small chance of anything happening.
Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Hillary herself had a convo with Bernie to be like "hey, stay until after this thing, just in case shit breaks bad"
I'm pretty sure Bernie could have jumped back in, in that event
it's not like if you suspend your campaign it's against the rules to un-suspend it
The success of the Hillary image rehabilitation/Sanders character assassination program has really been astounding. I guess all those bux to Correct The Record really paid off. The amount of vitriol generated over the fact that Sanders hasn't given a concession speech within some imaginary timetable (despite having said that he won't be the nominee, he will support the democratic candidate, he is absolutely opposed to Trump etc) is seriously mindboggling. Props to Bendery and the rest who are still resisting the herd mentality around here. I hope Sanders takes it to the convention, and uses every ounce of leverage he has to combat the neoliberal agenda in favor of actual progressive policy.
I was a Sanders fan at first. I think he's being a snot now. I also don't think he's doing anything to push the party left right now. I think Hillary is pushing the party left. Sanders is just stamping his feet like a child.
HRC is the party, she didn't need to move left and made no effort to until Sanders was in the picture;
Example;
Hillary wanted to offer tuition and make students work for it. Sanders said no, education is a right, it shouldn't have to be earned.
It resonated with the young voter base, and now Clinton has said "okay, as long as your family can't afford it you can go for free"
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NAFTA has been pretty good for Canadians, actually. Better investments in automotive production, increased oil exports worldwide, more shipments of beef, agricultural products, wood and paper products south of the border, and exports of mining products. Higher investment from American companies in tech sectors. Also made it much easier for skilled professionals to move between countries to pursue work through a better visa process, increased the level of secondary education throughout the populace and helped to bolster the middle-class.
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I got a dashboard cam after a cop cited my wife for driving 90 in a 60 zone. She was speeding at 70 per her account and I don't think her Honda can even go 90.
As somebody who used to live in Gary Indiana...
no. NAFTA may not have started that landslide but it absolutely made things an order of magnitude worse for a lot of manufacturing and agricultural towns. Gary's era of being a civil rights boom town where men of color indisputably won their equality through literally bending steel was already on the wane. The more rural areas further south and their bygone era of moo cows and corn fields were even past their prime by the late 90s. Time marches on and people need to learn new ways to make a living because we've become a commerce, finance, arts, tech and science based globalized economy. Cool. I actually like that a lot more than the old model. The problem with NAFTA is that it pulled the rug out from whole regions without any plan as to how those places were meant to make that transition.
... But he hasn't yet The contest isn't over till the convention. Is Hillary going to win? Yes, at the convention.
Which hasn't happened
I too like when the football team down 40 with a minute left in the 4th keeps calling timeout to try and get the ball back one last time.
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Hilarious, because if you actually thought about your metaphor for ten seconds, it would actually be more like the team that's down by forty giving up and walking off before the game was over. Which, you know, isn't how it works.
Whatever, you've turned this into an emotional argument instead of one on economics and facts. Pretty much all research on NAFTA says that it was a small net positive economically and any manufacturing job losses were already dead jobs walking. Efficiency in manufacturing ensured that.
Your analogy falls flat, how about. "It's always great when the Olympic team in second place during the relay race says "Fuck it" and walks off the field.
Sanders not formally conceding impedes nothing and doesn't delay Hillary's victory.
I was a Sanders fan at first. I think he's being a snot now. I also don't think he's doing anything to push the party left right now. I think Hillary is pushing the party left. Sanders is just stamping his feet like a child.
On my sleeve, let the runway start
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Fuck Joe Manchin
the delegates as they roll up from district to state to national levels are the ones that actually define the party's platform.
sander's delegates are the ones that are bringing his ideas to the democratic party. they are the ones doing the real progressive change in this whole system.
the way I see it is Sanders stepping out early would weaken their positions in arguing with Hillary delegates on platform specifics.
Maybe i'm wrong on that, but that's how I understand it, and so I am all for Sanders staying in until the last minute possible.
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it may certainly seem that way compared to whatever the hell Republicans are doing
Sanders? I don't know what the hell he's doing.
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Holy christ
He lost
It's over
Fucking deal with it
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ah yes, the ideal route for political and social progression
The length of leadership contests is a bit long in the American political cycle
this attitude is exactly why everyone can't stand sanders anymore
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
HRC is the party, she didn't need to move left and made no effort to until Sanders was in the picture;
Example;
Hillary wanted to offer tuition and make students work for it. Sanders said no, education is a right, it shouldn't have to be earned.
It resonated with the young voter base, and now Clinton has said "okay, as long as your family can't afford it you can go for free"
But yea, she's the one pushing the party left.
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Woah @PwnanObrien your from my area? (I live like 15 minutes from Gary)
And yes as someone who has many family members who use to work for the Steel Mills and some who do. The original Clinton area was absolutely the final set of nails in the coffin for the area. Suddenly all the auto manufacturers in Detroit and the buildings in Chicago didn't need Gary Steel, because it was cheaper to buy and import China Steel. It fucked the economy in this area irreparably. Instead of a slow slide into a changing economy, 3 of the 4 major steel mills went out of business, and thousands had no jobs.
When you lose a political contest, you owe your opponent a gracious concession speech.
As has been pointed out before, Clinton gave a concession speech on June 7th in 08, and Obama beat her by a lot less than Clinton beat Sanders by.
Yeah, but the chart says...
The free tuition push started with Obama.
The tuition thing wasn't even on Bernie's list of concessions.
On my sleeve, let the runway start
Hmm, well from my perspective, all I see is a lot of people repeating a false narrative about tantrums without any substantive points, while talking down and talking over people with legitimate concerns about Hillary's platform (Hurray drone strikes! Hurray Goldman Sachs!). Like, the number of times I've seen people in this thread effectively say "DO YOU WANT TRUMP TO WIN???" is off the charts.
And then of course, if you bring up any of these matters of public record, you get accused of being crazy, a conspiracy theorist, sheeple, etc. So that's super cool!
That was theater, she had already conceded months prior to that.
Edit: and as for dumping on the chart, dismissing facts because they disagree with your worldview is what we lambast the gop for all the time. Why is your anecdote a special snowflake.
But from everything I've read, it sounds like the better place for Sanders at the moment is to promote his ideas within the party from his seat in government, which is inherently easier to do if you aren't burning bridges out of ego, and to try to keep his followers from being disenfranchised from politics so they, too, can push for change and be a vocal part of the party
And it seems like him continuing to push for the presidential race is just sapping the strength out of what he can achieve within the political machine, and contributing to that disenfranchisement
I mean, how many political changes has he managed to affect in the DNC platform since he was essentially out of the running for the nomination? All I see, based on the few Bernie bros on my Facebook, is that his contribution to demonizing Hilary (since trying to push for delegates to switch allegiance) has only managed to make his followers feel more like he was forced out because of corruption or party politics, and it makes me doubt that they're going to end up voting for the party at all
The longer he makes this go, the more it makes him seem like an old man yelling at a cloud, and less like a political force for change, which is tragic from the view of improving socialist programs in the US that it so desperately needs
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shit, i dunno, what if it had gone the other way and she was indicted and bernie had already dropped out. what kind of garabage fire would we have then? trump running un-opposed or some kind of crazy last minute DNC scramble? I'm glad bernie stuck around until at least then, even it it was a small small chance of anything happening.
Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Hillary herself had a convo with Bernie to be like "hey, stay until after this thing, just in case shit breaks bad"
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oh yeah lets focus on sander's platform of everyone gets all this stuff. how are we going to do it? well uh, you see. oh right he has no way of doing anything that isn't rooted in fantasy land
and my last thought is the idea that everyone is turning on sanders because of character assassination, when clinton has been facing that for the past 30 years. how ironic
I know the argument of "well you took the loans out" and its true, we did, but its because we had to get crazy expensive degrees to get jobs. And while I'm not so bad (I qualified for income based repayment) I know people who are paying $800-$1000 a month to pay off their student loans. Imagine what that could buy, new cars, a home, diamonds those things that help keep the economy flowing.
It was always going to amount to nothing. No way hillary would have told bernie to stay in on the off chance Comey wanted to torpedo his career. And if she did get indicted than the convention becomes a cluster fuck, whether bernie dropped or not, you can't lose the contest and win because the other person got indicted. We'd probably end up with Joe Biden as nominee and lose.
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I'm pretty sure Bernie could have jumped back in, in that event
it's not like if you suspend your campaign it's against the rules to un-suspend it
And here is where she planned to take Obamas free tuition push.
http://www.alternet.org/education/hillary-clinton-wants-poor-students-work-tuition-though-her-dad-paid-hers
Now she has a progressive view on education after Sanders plan was widely viewed as better.