Yeah, the evidence I've seen points to the Vive outselling the Rift, though probably not 2 to 1, in most areas. If you have any evidence it's really a split feel free to post it.
Now wait a second, you just criticized Sweeney for posting no source of his information. Why in the absence of sales data should we assume a default state of things as 50/50?
We do have information.
BigScreen is a free app, available on both Home and Steam, and a popular app on both.
BigScreen has a 1:1 ratio of Vive to Rift users since launching on Home. Source
The majority of Rift users launch BigScreen through Home. Also mentioned in this source - the Rift & Vive numbers are less than 10% apart Source
BigScreen is in the top 20 VR apps on Steam by ownership, ahead of even super popular free stuff like Rec Room or Accounting, so it's not like it's a niche app on Steam either.Source
Given the first two points, although we have no data on active Rift ownership of anything, the third point also reflects its popularity amongst Rift users.
So unless the BigScreen devs are straight up lying, it's pretty hard to argue that Rift & Vive ownership isn't at least within a margin of error of 50/50. For the ratio to be anywhere near 2 to 1, BigScreen would have to have a massively lower ownership rate among Vive users, and with how popular the app is, it's pretty impossible to argue that.
There is no phenomenon that would explain Vive users using BigScreen substantially less than Rift users, nor vice versa. It's a free app, so cost is not a factor, and it's on both stores, so store choice is not a factor. Both Rift & Vive demographics would takeup an app like BigScreen at equal rates - the demographics are not different.
Oh, and as to how this relates to the China numbers - Steam is not available in China and obviously Oculus is not available at all, so BigScreen has no Chinese users.
There is no phenomenon that would explain Vive users using BigScreen substantially less than Rift users, nor vice versa. It's a free app, so cost is not a factor, and it's on both stores, so store choice is not a factor. Both Rift & Vive demographics would takeup an app like BigScreen at equal rates - the demographics are not different.
Setting aside the dubious nature of using a single free app's ownership to judge a platform's sales, I'm not so sure about that. Steam Desktop Theater provides a very basic equivalent of BigScreen, and also doesn't show up as an owned app like BigScreen. While both Vive and Oculus users can use Steam Desktop Theater, it's much more integrated with the basic experience of Vive and SteamVR.
And outside of that you have the rudimentary desktop control built into the Vive's system options as well. While I have played around with the Oculus, I didn't get a chance to muck around in the interface that much. Does it have the kind of one-touch access to desktop remote control that the Vive does? Or are you in the Oculus Home interface instead?
It could be a situation where something like BigScreen is a necessity on Oculus, but merely a luxury on Vive, where people already have quick desktop access or even a theater mode for any Steam game with a couple button presses.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
Have you used BigScreen?
Because it really is not comparable to Steam Desktop theater.
People are not using BigScreen for the things that Desktop Theater does. They're using it for the social aspect, whether with strangers or with friends. They're using it to watch 3D movies, 3D gaming, or smooth performance of demanding games, something that the Desktop mode in SteamVR is not capable of.
I disagree, but that doesn't really answer my question. Does Oculus have quick access to desktop remote control or theater mode like Vive does? Or is it a situation where BigScreen is necessary software on Oculus, but merely optional for Vive, which makes it easy to do things on your computer without needing to remove the headset?
I disagree, but that doesn't really answer my question. Does Oculus have quick access to desktop remote control or theater mode like Vive does? Or is it a situation where BigScreen is necessary software on Oculus, but merely optional for Vive, which makes it easy to do things on your computer without needing to remove the headset?
I don't really get what "things on your computer" you're referring to.
Because it really is not comparable to Steam Desktop theater.
People are not using BigScreen for the things that Desktop Theater does.
I haven't, but that's really more arguing against your point than for it (and I didn't look into it for exactly that reason; Steam VR's default desktop mode already does what I need). Also, there are other potential ways that could throw the number off; if there are fewer Rifts but rift owners buy more VR software, then that would throw off the numbers based on software sales.
I'd say using bigscreen numbers is a pretty tenuous basis for arguing device numbers, especially when most reports I've seen have the Vive outselling the Rift.
I disagree, but that doesn't really answer my question. Does Oculus have quick access to desktop remote control or theater mode like Vive does? Or is it a situation where BigScreen is necessary software on Oculus, but merely optional for Vive, which makes it easy to do things on your computer without needing to remove the headset?
You don't need to do anything on your computer wearing the Rift, unless it was something specific for an extended period of time like watching a movie or playing a game, in which case the Steam Desktop Theater performance is not good enough and I'd use a discrete app on either Rift or Vive regardless.
I use Steam Desktop Theater to watch video all the time.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
There's a huge difference between 450k:350k and 2:1, even if we take SuperData at their word without any reason to think they know any better than us.
BigScreen is NOT a tenuous piece of information unless you are directly accusing the BigScreen devs of being untruthful. It has over 100,000 owners on Steam, and it's a free app with literally zero bar for entry. That is more than enough to be a representative sample size, this is basic statistics.
There's a huge difference between 450k:350k and 2:1, even if we take SuperData at their word without any reason to think they know any better than us.
It's actually 420k to 350k, and no one's arguing that it's 2 to 1 outside China. Just that there's evidence that it's not (as you claimed) 50/50.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Steam Desktop Theater is good enough for watching movies, but it does not support 3D media, while BigScreen does, and the rendering performance for playing games is much worse - I tried playing Mankind Divided in Steam Desktop Theater and was getting barely 10fps, while BigScreen was just under 60, barely less than I get on my monitor.
The only advantage Desktop Theater has is that it's slightly quicker to open up your desktop if you need to for something quick (a few seconds to change a setting or something). For anything else, the few extra seconds it takes to boot up BigScreen is nothing, and clearly hundreds of thousands of VR users agree.
And I can confidently say that on my Rift I have never actually needed to quickly do anything on the desktop related to VR, ever. All the settings you need are accessible within VR, and if I'm going to do something for an extended period of time on the desktop I'll load up Virtual Desktop or BigScreen.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The Rift is also much less hassle to take off and put on. You're not shifting it around constantly looking for the sweet spot, and you're not faffing around with headphones either. It's not like it's an extra five minutes to put the Vive on or anything, but I can understand why you wouldn't want to be taking the Vive off and on constantly for two seconds to do something on the desktop.
I disagree, but that doesn't really answer my question. Does Oculus have quick access to desktop remote control or theater mode like Vive does? Or is it a situation where BigScreen is necessary software on Oculus, but merely optional for Vive, which makes it easy to do things on your computer without needing to remove the headset?
I don't really get what "things on your computer" you're referring to.
This...just viewing and controlling your desktop from within VR, easily accessible from the system menu without quitting a game:
I've gotten Google Hangouts messages in VR, replied to them quickly with the on screen keyboard, and gone right back into VR.
Or looking to see if an application has hung or has an error up on screen, force quitting an application that may still be running and using system resources, running something that's not integrated into Steam, etc.
I use the desktop view all the time, it's incredibly convenient. Does Oculus have that?
The Rift is also much less hassle to take off and put on. You're not shifting it around constantly looking for the sweet spot, and you're not faffing around with headphones either. It's not like it's an extra five minutes to put the Vive on or anything, but I can understand why you wouldn't want to be taking the Vive off and on constantly for two seconds to do something on the desktop.
I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. The point was that Vive users might be less likely to get Big Screen because the default software already works for some things (for example, browsing the web and watching videos) that might be done in Big Screen. Or at least, that's the impression I got; I don't have a Rift, but can they get a normal desktop view without any additional software? If not, that's an obvious reason Big Screen might be more popular with Rift users.
We're not claiming that this is proof that the Vive is outselling the Rift, just pointing out that it's far from hard evidence that they're 50/50.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
This...just viewing and controlling your desktop from within VR, easily accessible from the system menu without quitting a game:
I've gotten Google Hangouts messages in VR, replied to them quickly with the on screen keyboard, and gone right back into VR.
Or looking to see if an application has hung or has an error up on screen, force quitting an application that may still be running and using system resources, running something that's not integrated into Steam, etc.
I use the desktop view all the time, it's incredibly convenient. Does Oculus have that?
It doesn't, but not once have I felt the lack. Oculus Home allows you to force quit from within VR if you need to, and for anything else I just take the headset off. Even if it was one button press to bring up the desktop, it'd still be faster to take the headset off. I think you're underestimating how quick the Rift is to get on and off comfortably. It is literally not even two full seconds to get on or off. No fumbling blindly for headphones or anything like that. I know that doesn't take like thirty seconds with the Vive or anything, but it's enough of an extra step that I wouldn't want to be taking the headset off this often if I had a Vive. I definitely didn't like having to take the Rift devkit off my head too often.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The Rift is also much less hassle to take off and put on. You're not shifting it around constantly looking for the sweet spot, and you're not faffing around with headphones either. It's not like it's an extra five minutes to put the Vive on or anything, but I can understand why you wouldn't want to be taking the Vive off and on constantly for two seconds to do something on the desktop.
I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. The point was that Vive users might be less likely to get Big Screen because the default software already works for some things (for example, browsing the web and watching videos) that might be done in Big Screen. Or at least, that's the impression I got; I don't have a Rift, but can they get a normal desktop view without any additional software? If not, that's an obvious reason Big Screen might be more popular with Rift users.
We're not claiming that this is proof that the Vive is outselling the Rift, just pointing out that it's far from hard evidence that they're 50/50.
My entire original discussion was pointing out that Tim Sweeney's comments are complete nonsense unless he included China, and including China was itself also nonsense.
Then you guys disagreed with that. Now you're saying the Vive & Rift are probably 420k to 350k, which is close enough to 50/50 that there is no material difference.
I don't have BigScreen vOv It came out after Virtual Desktop, which was one of the first things I paid for.
It's silly to use one app available on both platforms as a way to judge device penetration. It might be just as silly to take the word of one industry person at face value, too. In any case, I think it's going to be very difficult to convince Dhalphir that anything said about the Vive in superiority to the Rift could possibly be true.
Edit: Yeah, you're right. I wasn't even trying to make this into a discussion of this or that headset being superior, but I think that's a lost cause at this point.
This is like the kool-aidinest set of replies I've seen in a while.
Sweeney says Vive is outselling Oculus 2:1. But nevermind being an industry figure developing a major Oculus exclusive, he's apparently an Oculus critic, and he gives no source for his numbers, and China must be the cause of the disparity and they don't count, so just forget all that and take it for granted that they're selling 50/50, until called on that...at which point we rely on a single piece of free software as our hardware sales metric, stating that there are zero reasons why users might opt to use this software in unbalanced numbers, until called on that...at which point we learn that there are no competitors for BigScreen that could throw the numbers off, because software for playing your games in a big theater isn't used for the same reasons as software for playing your games in a big theater, and/or controlling your desktop is totally unnecessary from within VR, something nobody would ever want to do, but the Vive is just so dang cumbersome and heavy to work with that it's understandable why nobody would ever want to take it off, and of course Oculus users are better off without desktop control software...
I mean, come on now.
There's no chance that Vive users have easier access to non-VR PC functionality that might give them less reason to futz with BigScreen?
BigScreen is just the software you can count on for parity between both platforms, the one that conclusively proves insider Sweeney wrong?
I don't have BigScreen vOv It came out after Virtual Desktop, which was one of the first things I paid for.
Which is not relevant. You don't need literally every single person with a Rift or Vive to own BigScreen in order for the developers of that game to be able to make accurate statements. That's literally how sample sizes work.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
If you're suggesting that there are people with a Vive who don't use BigScreen because they can check Hangouts messages and other minor desktop tasks using Steam, then you're also asserting that there are people with an Oculus Rift who go through the trouble of launching BigScreen to do that, and that's why more Rift users use BigScreen than Vive users.
Is that your assertion?
Because if not, then whether or not the Vive users are using Steam Desktop for some things isn't significantly relevant to overall takeup of BigScreen. Which is the case, because BigScreen's primary drawcard is social, not practical.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
In any case, if you want more evidence, here's another app saying the same thing. A paid one this time.
There is no phenomenon that would explain Vive users using BigScreen substantially less than Rift users, nor vice versa.
is incorrect. One possible reason is that the Vive and its closer integration with SteamVR means that both the desktop view and Steam Desktop Theater are much more at the user's fingertips on that platform.
It doesn't have to be for positive reasons. For all we know, Steam Desktop Theater is most users' first experience in a theater mode, and many of them decide that the resolution and performance just isn't quite there yet, so they don't even bother trying alternative programs - maybe it's not that it's a good alternative, it's that it's all they need to see to decide they're not using one at all! So BigScreen ends up owned by 80% of Rift users but only 65% of Vive users.
Or maybe BigScreen is more heavily advertised/pushed on Oculus, since it's the only free desktop software on that storefront. Maybe Vive users feel more lost and inundated with janky free software, with relatively little focus on the Steam storefront, yet they still manage to find BigScreen in equal numbers, in spite of its lower visibility. That could explain higher hardware sales yet equal software adoption.
The point is that phenomenons exist that would explain Vive users using BigScreen less than Rift users. Take your pick as to the explanation. I feel that Desktop Theater and the control software do have some hand in some users opting out of potentially more advanced desktop software, though.
Which is the case, because BigScreen's primary drawcard is social, not practical.
I completely disagree. Its primary draw is that it is free, and that it is a theater mode program. If it is primarily about the social aspect then they are advertising its features completely wrong, and all the reviews consisting of solo, personal usage are apparently using it wrong.
90% of Rift owners bought from Home, 10% from Steam
This info (combined with the BigScreen stats) also illustrates why SteamVR survey data is not relevant in determining market share.
First reply to that post:
Hi, dev here.
First of all, thanks to everyone who bought the game. You guys are awesome
While the data and stats are correct, I would like to point out the issue of discoverability. There are over 1000 VR games on Steam, while GravLab was one of only 53 touch launch titles. Also, I have no idea about hardware base in general.
Incidentally this is exactly the third argument I put forth above...that Vive users are more inundated with software, yet nonetheless manage to stumble across this particular software in similar numbers, despite lower visibility.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Steam makes it much easier to find new VR apps than Home. Home doesn't even have a sort-by-New feature. I think that would more than cancel out the difference. I rely entirely on a third party subreddit /r/OculusStore to keep up with new apps being added to Home. I'd imagine most people would not be doing this.
The point is that when discussing consumer headset preferences, you can't use numbers from a market where customers don't have both headsets to choose from.
I was going to say that he's not discussing preferences, he's discussing sales. Worldwide. Which includes China! And that I'm not sure where you're coming from with this argument, but I see we've moved on to a tiny related detail argument, so I'm not gonna.
The point is that when discussing consumer headset preferences, you can't use numbers from a market where customers don't have both headsets to choose from.
I was going to say that he's not discussing preferences, he's discussing sales. Worldwide. Which includes China! And that I'm not sure where you're coming from with this argument, but I see we've moved on to a tiny related detail argument, so I'm not gonna.
My point was never that Tim was giving incorrect figures or that he was discussing preferences. But there are plenty of people using his words and data to discuss preferences without really understanding the numbers.
The point is that when discussing consumer headset preferences, you can't use numbers from a market where customers don't have both headsets to choose from.
I was going to say that he's not discussing preferences, he's discussing sales. Worldwide. Which includes China! And that I'm not sure where you're coming from with this argument, but I see we've moved on to a tiny related detail argument, so I'm not gonna.
My point was never that Tim was giving incorrect figures or that he was discussing preferences. But there are plenty of people using his words and data to discuss preferences without really understanding the numbers.
Ah, that makes more sense.
It's kind of funny sometimes, watching these arguments from the outside. As one of the tiny minority who bought both a Rift and a Vive, my favorite headset tends to be the one that I happen to have plugged in at the time, because otherwise I'd have to crawl under my desk and switch out a USB and HDMI cable ;-)
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
At the end of the day, in any situation the simplest explanation is nearly always the correct one, and in this case, regardless of any convoluted concept of different demographics preferring different software, or the Vive not needing software to see the desktop or anything like that, it's all irrelevant. The simplest explanation is that two nearly identical products , at nearly identical price points, with nearly identical functionality, selling to identical demographics, fulfilling identical purposes, probably will sell in nearly identical numbers.
There is little to no evidence that one would significantly out sell the other, and in the absence of any evidence the logical conclusion would be equal market share. As much as we like to drill down and dissect the differences, the Rift and Vive are 95% the same.
Those are actually quite a lot of assumptions you're making that I would disagree hold true across the world, especially the demographics part.
Facebook not generally being allowed in China and HTC being an Asian company are actually quite a big deal as far as global markets go. I've also generally not heard the Oculus Rift being used nearly as much as the HTC Vive in the VR arcades I hear about in those regions as well.
On the flip side, Oculus being first to market branding-wise has also given it a huge headway in the porn market for awareness that I think is only starting to change.
I've been wondering: has the demo scene embraced VR at all? Are there any VR demos coming from that demographic? (Some of the things I've checked out, like Senza Peso and Surge, definitely feel like they're at least inspired by the demo scene.)
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This bigscreen sales data thing seems like a really really bad example. I uhh, bought virtual desktop when I got my Vive. I thought most people here did too. I have no idea why I would ever want bigscreen. If it does 3D desktop games, well so does VorpX.
I've also watched a grand total of 1 movie/TV thing in my headset. Last week, in virtual desktop, and it was pretty sweet. You're projecting a huge amount of your own behavior onto other people -- big screen is a completely non-representative data point to me. Doesn't it sort of make sense that more Rift users would have been doing multimedia stuff with their headset pre motion controllers? And if that's your main thing, you would have seen the consensus that the Rift is slightly better for that and gone that way.
Edit: I feel the need to point out that I'm not trying to make some argument that the Vive is selling like gangbusters and that it is somehow superior as a result. I dunno what the numbers are. I know that the ways being used to get to the numbers you are are super flimsy and the goalposts are moving post by post.
Has anyone tried the Vive wireless thing? I hear it adds a tiny bit of latency and wonder if it's very noticeable for people who have been using theirs for a while.
Still waiting until I can afford the thing. Probably for next revision or two.
Has anyone tried the Vive wireless thing? I hear it adds a tiny bit of latency and wonder if it's very noticeable for people who have been using theirs for a while.
Still waiting until I can afford the thing. Probably for next revision or two.
A couple of the VR specialized websites have tried it and have said they didn't notice a difference. Apparently Tested just dropped their impressions video (their VR coverage has been pretty great), and the tl;dr is "indistinguishable".
Someone should go watch the Tested video for me while I'm at work.
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We do have information.
BigScreen is a free app, available on both Home and Steam, and a popular app on both.
So unless the BigScreen devs are straight up lying, it's pretty hard to argue that Rift & Vive ownership isn't at least within a margin of error of 50/50. For the ratio to be anywhere near 2 to 1, BigScreen would have to have a massively lower ownership rate among Vive users, and with how popular the app is, it's pretty impossible to argue that.
There is no phenomenon that would explain Vive users using BigScreen substantially less than Rift users, nor vice versa. It's a free app, so cost is not a factor, and it's on both stores, so store choice is not a factor. Both Rift & Vive demographics would takeup an app like BigScreen at equal rates - the demographics are not different.
Oh, and as to how this relates to the China numbers - Steam is not available in China and obviously Oculus is not available at all, so BigScreen has no Chinese users.
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Setting aside the dubious nature of using a single free app's ownership to judge a platform's sales, I'm not so sure about that. Steam Desktop Theater provides a very basic equivalent of BigScreen, and also doesn't show up as an owned app like BigScreen. While both Vive and Oculus users can use Steam Desktop Theater, it's much more integrated with the basic experience of Vive and SteamVR.
And outside of that you have the rudimentary desktop control built into the Vive's system options as well. While I have played around with the Oculus, I didn't get a chance to muck around in the interface that much. Does it have the kind of one-touch access to desktop remote control that the Vive does? Or are you in the Oculus Home interface instead?
It could be a situation where something like BigScreen is a necessity on Oculus, but merely a luxury on Vive, where people already have quick desktop access or even a theater mode for any Steam game with a couple button presses.
Because it really is not comparable to Steam Desktop theater.
People are not using BigScreen for the things that Desktop Theater does. They're using it for the social aspect, whether with strangers or with friends. They're using it to watch 3D movies, 3D gaming, or smooth performance of demanding games, something that the Desktop mode in SteamVR is not capable of.
I don't really get what "things on your computer" you're referring to.
I haven't, but that's really more arguing against your point than for it (and I didn't look into it for exactly that reason; Steam VR's default desktop mode already does what I need). Also, there are other potential ways that could throw the number off; if there are fewer Rifts but rift owners buy more VR software, then that would throw off the numbers based on software sales.
I'd say using bigscreen numbers is a pretty tenuous basis for arguing device numbers, especially when most reports I've seen have the Vive outselling the Rift.
I use Steam Desktop Theater to watch video all the time.
BigScreen is NOT a tenuous piece of information unless you are directly accusing the BigScreen devs of being untruthful. It has over 100,000 owners on Steam, and it's a free app with literally zero bar for entry. That is more than enough to be a representative sample size, this is basic statistics.
It's actually 420k to 350k, and no one's arguing that it's 2 to 1 outside China. Just that there's evidence that it's not (as you claimed) 50/50.
The only advantage Desktop Theater has is that it's slightly quicker to open up your desktop if you need to for something quick (a few seconds to change a setting or something). For anything else, the few extra seconds it takes to boot up BigScreen is nothing, and clearly hundreds of thousands of VR users agree.
And I can confidently say that on my Rift I have never actually needed to quickly do anything on the desktop related to VR, ever. All the settings you need are accessible within VR, and if I'm going to do something for an extended period of time on the desktop I'll load up Virtual Desktop or BigScreen.
This...just viewing and controlling your desktop from within VR, easily accessible from the system menu without quitting a game:
I've gotten Google Hangouts messages in VR, replied to them quickly with the on screen keyboard, and gone right back into VR.
Or looking to see if an application has hung or has an error up on screen, force quitting an application that may still be running and using system resources, running something that's not integrated into Steam, etc.
I use the desktop view all the time, it's incredibly convenient. Does Oculus have that?
I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. The point was that Vive users might be less likely to get Big Screen because the default software already works for some things (for example, browsing the web and watching videos) that might be done in Big Screen. Or at least, that's the impression I got; I don't have a Rift, but can they get a normal desktop view without any additional software? If not, that's an obvious reason Big Screen might be more popular with Rift users.
We're not claiming that this is proof that the Vive is outselling the Rift, just pointing out that it's far from hard evidence that they're 50/50.
It doesn't, but not once have I felt the lack. Oculus Home allows you to force quit from within VR if you need to, and for anything else I just take the headset off. Even if it was one button press to bring up the desktop, it'd still be faster to take the headset off. I think you're underestimating how quick the Rift is to get on and off comfortably. It is literally not even two full seconds to get on or off. No fumbling blindly for headphones or anything like that. I know that doesn't take like thirty seconds with the Vive or anything, but it's enough of an extra step that I wouldn't want to be taking the headset off this often if I had a Vive. I definitely didn't like having to take the Rift devkit off my head too often.
My entire original discussion was pointing out that Tim Sweeney's comments are complete nonsense unless he included China, and including China was itself also nonsense.
Then you guys disagreed with that. Now you're saying the Vive & Rift are probably 420k to 350k, which is close enough to 50/50 that there is no material difference.
It's silly to use one app available on both platforms as a way to judge device penetration. It might be just as silly to take the word of one industry person at face value, too. In any case, I think it's going to be very difficult to convince Dhalphir that anything said about the Vive in superiority to the Rift could possibly be true.
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Sweeney says Vive is outselling Oculus 2:1. But nevermind being an industry figure developing a major Oculus exclusive, he's apparently an Oculus critic, and he gives no source for his numbers, and China must be the cause of the disparity and they don't count, so just forget all that and take it for granted that they're selling 50/50, until called on that...at which point we rely on a single piece of free software as our hardware sales metric, stating that there are zero reasons why users might opt to use this software in unbalanced numbers, until called on that...at which point we learn that there are no competitors for BigScreen that could throw the numbers off, because software for playing your games in a big theater isn't used for the same reasons as software for playing your games in a big theater, and/or controlling your desktop is totally unnecessary from within VR, something nobody would ever want to do, but the Vive is just so dang cumbersome and heavy to work with that it's understandable why nobody would ever want to take it off, and of course Oculus users are better off without desktop control software...
I mean, come on now.
There's no chance that Vive users have easier access to non-VR PC functionality that might give them less reason to futz with BigScreen?
BigScreen is just the software you can count on for parity between both platforms, the one that conclusively proves insider Sweeney wrong?
Which is not relevant. You don't need literally every single person with a Rift or Vive to own BigScreen in order for the developers of that game to be able to make accurate statements. That's literally how sample sizes work.
Is that your assertion?
Because if not, then whether or not the Vive users are using Steam Desktop for some things isn't significantly relevant to overall takeup of BigScreen. Which is the case, because BigScreen's primary drawcard is social, not practical.
GravLab.
Highlights
This info (combined with the BigScreen stats) also illustrates why SteamVR survey data is not relevant in determining market share.
is incorrect. One possible reason is that the Vive and its closer integration with SteamVR means that both the desktop view and Steam Desktop Theater are much more at the user's fingertips on that platform.
It doesn't have to be for positive reasons. For all we know, Steam Desktop Theater is most users' first experience in a theater mode, and many of them decide that the resolution and performance just isn't quite there yet, so they don't even bother trying alternative programs - maybe it's not that it's a good alternative, it's that it's all they need to see to decide they're not using one at all! So BigScreen ends up owned by 80% of Rift users but only 65% of Vive users.
Or maybe BigScreen is more heavily advertised/pushed on Oculus, since it's the only free desktop software on that storefront. Maybe Vive users feel more lost and inundated with janky free software, with relatively little focus on the Steam storefront, yet they still manage to find BigScreen in equal numbers, in spite of its lower visibility. That could explain higher hardware sales yet equal software adoption.
The point is that phenomenons exist that would explain Vive users using BigScreen less than Rift users. Take your pick as to the explanation. I feel that Desktop Theater and the control software do have some hand in some users opting out of potentially more advanced desktop software, though.
I completely disagree. Its primary draw is that it is free, and that it is a theater mode program. If it is primarily about the social aspect then they are advertising its features completely wrong, and all the reviews consisting of solo, personal usage are apparently using it wrong.
First reply to that post:
Incidentally this is exactly the third argument I put forth above...that Vive users are more inundated with software, yet nonetheless manage to stumble across this particular software in similar numbers, despite lower visibility.
I was going to say that he's not discussing preferences, he's discussing sales. Worldwide. Which includes China! And that I'm not sure where you're coming from with this argument, but I see we've moved on to a tiny related detail argument, so I'm not gonna.
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Maybe the kind of apps that appeal to the two demographics are different.
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My point was never that Tim was giving incorrect figures or that he was discussing preferences. But there are plenty of people using his words and data to discuss preferences without really understanding the numbers.
Ah, that makes more sense.
It's kind of funny sometimes, watching these arguments from the outside. As one of the tiny minority who bought both a Rift and a Vive, my favorite headset tends to be the one that I happen to have plugged in at the time, because otherwise I'd have to crawl under my desk and switch out a USB and HDMI cable ;-)
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There is little to no evidence that one would significantly out sell the other, and in the absence of any evidence the logical conclusion would be equal market share. As much as we like to drill down and dissect the differences, the Rift and Vive are 95% the same.
Facebook not generally being allowed in China and HTC being an Asian company are actually quite a big deal as far as global markets go. I've also generally not heard the Oculus Rift being used nearly as much as the HTC Vive in the VR arcades I hear about in those regions as well.
On the flip side, Oculus being first to market branding-wise has also given it a huge headway in the porn market for awareness that I think is only starting to change.
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I've also watched a grand total of 1 movie/TV thing in my headset. Last week, in virtual desktop, and it was pretty sweet. You're projecting a huge amount of your own behavior onto other people -- big screen is a completely non-representative data point to me. Doesn't it sort of make sense that more Rift users would have been doing multimedia stuff with their headset pre motion controllers? And if that's your main thing, you would have seen the consensus that the Rift is slightly better for that and gone that way.
Edit: I feel the need to point out that I'm not trying to make some argument that the Vive is selling like gangbusters and that it is somehow superior as a result. I dunno what the numbers are. I know that the ways being used to get to the numbers you are are super flimsy and the goalposts are moving post by post.
There's some really tenuous stats happening in here.
Still waiting until I can afford the thing. Probably for next revision or two.
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A couple of the VR specialized websites have tried it and have said they didn't notice a difference. Apparently Tested just dropped their impressions video (their VR coverage has been pretty great), and the tl;dr is "indistinguishable".
Someone should go watch the Tested video for me while I'm at work.
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