Sincere question here please god don't misinterpret.
Do people consider it bad to want new characters to have new identities? To have their own name/powerset/costume/whatever that isn't intrinsically tied to an existing one? To be honest, I've never looked at any of Marvel's superheroes as having a "mantle" that is passed from one to another. I've always just viewed it as Captain America = Steve Rogers, Peter Parker = Spider-Man, etc.
When new characters have new identities, they don't sell enough books to keep the characters around. See Blank's post above--people are more inclined to buy a book with Captain America on it, regardless of who that Captain America is, than they are anything involving Sam Wilson by another name. And Steve and Pete both have enough existing name recognition to get attention outside of their titles.
The legacy of the names are the only reason so many of these newer characters are succeeding at all.
So - just because I'm really trying to see both sides of this from a fair perspective - that strikes me more as a failure of both the publisher (for not making the necessary monetary investment to really push new characters and new ideas) and the consumer (for failing to support new endeavors financially) than it strikes me as something more racially motivated.
I completely agree that Sam Wilson as Cap is an amazing opportunity to explore all kinds of issues that Steve wouldn't deal with and I've thought all that stuff has been great so far, and I don't have a solution for any of this, I'm just really noodling over the different perspectives. Because the artistic part of me very honestly would much rather see these new characters grow into new heroes with their own identities. It seems cynical to just cave into the idea that slapping the name "Spider-Man" onto someone else is the only viable way to get these characters into the mainstream.
I don't know. There have been new characters and franchises that have blown up in the mainstream without having to rely on legacy (like Katniss from Hunger games). I'm not saying it's easy.
But then, the Marvel comic stuff is still run by Perlmutter, right? So, yeah, he's a shitshow of a human being and could very well be dictating all this stuff. I have no idea. I'm just trying to parse it out and also trying to assume that not all people who just want the old traditional characters in their traditional roles are racist dirtbags.
Edit: I see Blank talked about some this in his post.
Second edit: It should also be noted I haven't read any comics since Secret War and really don't read many comics at all, so this thought process is mostly rooted in kind of general terms and not based on anything specific or recent.
Edit 3: rephrasing
Ceno on
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GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Also Perlmutter donating heavily to Trump soured a good lot of folks too.
Oh also worth noting
At the ComicsPro event they assured retailers that while Secret Empire is political it will be "bipartisan"
Hey guys when people are not into your Evil Hydra Runs America event because it seems too much like the current administration maybe you shouldn't be trying to appease fans of it
On the other hand, they've been giving Canadian Criminal Chip Zdarsky a lot more work, so you take the good and the bad
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
It still astounds me how great DC has been with Rebirth. There are still some bad comics but they put out so many books I look forward to every week now, when there were only a handful a year ago
I don't think anyone has accused Marvel of a "concerted racist agenda"
Like, I think that if the MMM stuff is true is is a huge bummer but not, like, intentionally racist
They are playing it safe with their audience which means returning to their old white heroes at the expense of their new, primarily minority, heroes. It makes business sense and mimics the success of Rebirth but it is super disappointing from a creative perspective.
The real "problem" is that Marvel are just not going to shelve their marquee characters; they're never not going to make comics where Peter Parker is Spider-Man, because he's just too much of a popular, cash cow property. Ditto Rogers, Stark, etc. That's going to make any legacy character feel awkward, because the original will always be looking over their shoulder (metaphorically if not literally.) This is especially true when the old and new characters have basically the same remit in story terms, which is the problem Miles and Sam run into but Kamala substantially avoids.
In her case things worked better because Mar-Vel had been dead for a while and nobody was really clamoring to bring him back, which freed Danvers up to abandon her old title permanently (also she wasn't so ensconced in the A list at that point that it was even a huge deal.)
ed: I do think it might have worked better had Marvel done more of a 'Spider-Man Incorporated' type of thing with Peter, rather than just call him a CEO but have him continue to do the same 'time management fuckup' routine he's been doing forever
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I would be shocked if Perlmutter had even the slightest idea of what the comics division was doing creatively. Looking at financials is probably as involved as he gets.
That's not to say that people shouldn't support Marvel because of his involvement if they don't want to.
I don't think anyone has accused Marvel of a "concerted racist agenda"
Like, I think that if the MMM stuff is true is is a huge bummer but not, like, intentionally racist
They are playing it safe with their audience which means returning to their old white heroes at the expense of their new, primarily minority, heroes. It makes business sense and mimics the success of Rebirth but it is super disappointing from a creative perspective.
And I certainly didn't mean to sound accusatory there, I'll try to think of a way to rephrase that.
I will certainly agree that Marvel's risk-averse nature is not their best feature, but that could probably be said for all big successful companies.
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
Most racist things in entertainment happen under the guise of being risk averse business practices
The safest comedies just happen to have a tendency to feature racial stereotypes for instance
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GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
edited February 2017
I would rather doubt he directs anything on individual books. But it wouldn't shock me at all if line wide mandates had some origin in his offices. Not particularly story based ones and what not.
On the other hand, they've been giving Canadian Criminal Chip Zdarsky a lot more work, so you take the good and the bad
Wait what
Zdawg's getting a Spidey book in addition to his current Bar-Lord title.
He also did a Dr. Strange MU one-shot this week.
The Canadian Criminal part
Look I'm pretty sure wearing a full Garfield costume in public is a felony somewhere.
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
If you had told me that there would be a new Ben reilly comic and I could not being myself to care about it a year ago I would have called you a damn liar.
Thanks Donald
Here's a sobering thought; does Marvel even need people to buy comics anymore?
Marvel Comics, the company, does, yes.
Marvel Entertainment, maybe not.
But that's also kind of a pointless question since no one needs to buy or make comics
I meant needs to in a business sense.
Sure. Marvel comics might just be a nice place for them to experiment with the characters, but they need people to buy them in order to market test the ideas first.
The real "problem" is that Marvel are just not going to shelve their marquee characters; they're never not going to make comics where Peter Parker is Spider-Man, because he's just too much of a popular, cash cow property. Ditto Rogers, Stark, etc. That's always going to make any legacy character feel awkward, because the original will always be looking over their shoulder (metaphorically if not literally.) This is especially true when the old and new characters have basically the same remit in story terms, which is the problem Miles and Sam run into but Kamala substantially avoids.
In her case things worked better because Mar-Vel had been dead for a while and nobody was really clamoring to bring him back, which freed Danvers up to abandon her old title permanently (also she wasn't so ensconced in the A list at that point that it was even a huge deal.)
ed: I do think it might have worked better had Marvel done more of a 'Spider-Man Incorporated' type of thing with Peter, rather than just call him a CEO but have him continue to do the same 'time management fuckup' routine he's been doing forever
The major problem is, " HEY GUYS, HERE ARE ALL THE WHITE MALE SUPERHEROES THAT ACTUALLY NEVER REALLY LEFT IN THE FIRST PLACE! HORRAY!"
Their disgusting, explotative, and blatently false lip service when they first launched Marvel Now, coupled with them, you know, actually LYING, then "bringing back the status quo".
Like fuck ALL that noise.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Also Perlmutter donating heavily to Trump soured a good lot of folks too.
Oh also worth noting
At the ComicsPro event they assured retailers that while Secret Empire is political it will be "bipartisan"
Hey guys when people are not into your Evil Hydra Runs America event because it seems too much like the current administration maybe you shouldn't be trying to appease fans of it
Man, okay I had limited myself to just buying non-headliner Marvel books (just picked up the first trade of Patsy Walker!) but no, fuck you Marvel. You don't get to be "bipartisan" when one side as literally depicted in your books is Nazis. Just fuck everything
Make Mine Anything But Marvel, I guess
(I just bought Monstress too. My roommate spent all morning reading it cover to cover and said he loved it)
I dunno, I guess that's a softer blow to absorb if you (like me) never took all that 'all-new all-different' type of marketing particularly seriously; which is not to say I'm some smarter, more cynical reader or whatever, just that I read comics and they always do a new thing then revert to status quo after a bit.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
It is perhaps a side effect of y'know, the whooooooole subtext of Winter Soldier, the popular movie most people have seen
I dunno, I guess that's a softer blow to absorb if you (like me) never took all that 'all-new all-different' type of marketing particularly seriously; which is not to say I'm some smarter, more cynical reader or whatever, just that I read comics and they always do a new thing then revert to status quo after a bit.
It's not a blow in that we were invested in it being true. More that a lot of people were just done with that status quo. Changing it, brought in people who weren't interested. Those people aren't likely to stick around if it goes back.
To be fair they aren't saying they are being bipartisan to Hydra
Just to Dems and Repubs
The fact that people find the current Hydra and current Republicans worryingly similar is, however, lost on them
Yeah, I can't picture being bipartisan to the current Republican platform in a way that doesn't give cover to Hydra in the comics. Just because I can't picture it doesn't mean it can't happen, but when you're talking about things like this and my default assumption is you're going to be saying "not all nazis are bad" then I'm not going to be spending money on your product
Which is frustrating, but at least I can look forward to getting trades of DC's Hanna Barbera line
To be fair they aren't saying they are being bipartisan to Hydra
Just to Dems and Repubs
The fact that people find the current Hydra and current Republicans worryingly similar is, however, lost on them
Yeah, I can't picture being bipartisan to the current Republican platform in a way that doesn't give cover to Hydra in the comics. Just because I can't picture it doesn't mean it can't happen, but when you're talking about things like this and my default assumption is you're going to be saying "not all nazis are bad" then I'm not going to be spending money on your product
Which is frustrating, but at least I can look forward to getting trades of DC's Hanna Barbera line
I really, really don't think Marvel is going to portray Hydra as anything close to good. They'll portray Steve as thinking he's in the right but that's not the same as treating them like the good guys.
and/or they'll hold back on some of their more aggressive allusions to Trump, which tbh I'm fine with because while amusing they kinda detract from the story
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Polygon does a neat comics show on their YouTube called Issue At Hand. Today's episode is about buying comics, and I thought it was really interesting as someone who has never done more than just bought single issues/TPBs at a comic shop while I was there for Magic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94FsJcYW0Uc
I had NO IDEA that the whole distribution model was so fucked. Like, I've looked at the Previews magazine/catalog/300-pound monstrosity while I was in the store before but I didn't know that was the ONLY thing that mattered. That's insane!
It explains why the guys who ran the shop looked at me funny sometimes when I asked if they got certain books in stock, I never knew I had to pre-order stuff.
Posts
It's because DC has been knocking it out of the park since Rebirth and only one of them can be good at a time
So - just because I'm really trying to see both sides of this from a fair perspective - that strikes me more as a failure of both the publisher (for not making the necessary monetary investment to really push new characters and new ideas) and the consumer (for failing to support new endeavors financially) than it strikes me as something more racially motivated.
I completely agree that Sam Wilson as Cap is an amazing opportunity to explore all kinds of issues that Steve wouldn't deal with and I've thought all that stuff has been great so far, and I don't have a solution for any of this, I'm just really noodling over the different perspectives. Because the artistic part of me very honestly would much rather see these new characters grow into new heroes with their own identities. It seems cynical to just cave into the idea that slapping the name "Spider-Man" onto someone else is the only viable way to get these characters into the mainstream.
I don't know. There have been new characters and franchises that have blown up in the mainstream without having to rely on legacy (like Katniss from Hunger games). I'm not saying it's easy.
But then, the Marvel comic stuff is still run by Perlmutter, right? So, yeah, he's a shitshow of a human being and could very well be dictating all this stuff. I have no idea. I'm just trying to parse it out and also trying to assume that not all people who just want the old traditional characters in their traditional roles are racist dirtbags.
Edit: I see Blank talked about some this in his post.
Second edit: It should also be noted I haven't read any comics since Secret War and really don't read many comics at all, so this thought process is mostly rooted in kind of general terms and not based on anything specific or recent.
Edit 3: rephrasing
gross.
Wait what
Like, I think that if the MMM stuff is true is is a huge bummer but not, like, intentionally racist
They are playing it safe with their audience which means returning to their old white heroes at the expense of their new, primarily minority, heroes. It makes business sense and mimics the success of Rebirth but it is super disappointing from a creative perspective.
There are stories about him being angry about folks throwing pencils because he didn't feel like they had been adequately used up.
To say nothing of his stance on women led superhero films. Which is why Feige no longer answering to him is somewhat celebrated.
Basically he seems involved enough to not entirely discount the possibility.
In her case things worked better because Mar-Vel had been dead for a while and nobody was really clamoring to bring him back, which freed Danvers up to abandon her old title permanently (also she wasn't so ensconced in the A list at that point that it was even a huge deal.)
ed: I do think it might have worked better had Marvel done more of a 'Spider-Man Incorporated' type of thing with Peter, rather than just call him a CEO but have him continue to do the same 'time management fuckup' routine he's been doing forever
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
That's not to say that people shouldn't support Marvel because of his involvement if they don't want to.
And I certainly didn't mean to sound accusatory there, I'll try to think of a way to rephrase that.
I will certainly agree that Marvel's risk-averse nature is not their best feature, but that could probably be said for all big successful companies.
The safest comedies just happen to have a tendency to feature racial stereotypes for instance
World of Wakanda and Ultimates2 are good but they can/should do more.
Zdawg's getting a Spidey book in addition to his current Bar-Lord title.
He also did a Dr. Strange MU one-shot this week.
The Canadian Criminal part
Look I'm pretty sure wearing a full Garfield costume in public is a felony somewhere.
Thanks Donald
Sure. Marvel comics might just be a nice place for them to experiment with the characters, but they need people to buy them in order to market test the ideas first.
Guessing ( hoping) it's just a reference to Sex Criminals?
The major problem is, " HEY GUYS, HERE ARE ALL THE WHITE MALE SUPERHEROES THAT ACTUALLY NEVER REALLY LEFT IN THE FIRST PLACE! HORRAY!"
Their disgusting, explotative, and blatently false lip service when they first launched Marvel Now, coupled with them, you know, actually LYING, then "bringing back the status quo".
Like fuck ALL that noise.
Man, okay I had limited myself to just buying non-headliner Marvel books (just picked up the first trade of Patsy Walker!) but no, fuck you Marvel. You don't get to be "bipartisan" when one side as literally depicted in your books is Nazis. Just fuck everything
Make Mine Anything But Marvel, I guess
(I just bought Monstress too. My roommate spent all morning reading it cover to cover and said he loved it)
Just to Dems and Repubs
The fact that people find the current Hydra and current Republicans worryingly similar is, however, lost on them
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
It's not a blow in that we were invested in it being true. More that a lot of people were just done with that status quo. Changing it, brought in people who weren't interested. Those people aren't likely to stick around if it goes back.
Yeah, I can't picture being bipartisan to the current Republican platform in a way that doesn't give cover to Hydra in the comics. Just because I can't picture it doesn't mean it can't happen, but when you're talking about things like this and my default assumption is you're going to be saying "not all nazis are bad" then I'm not going to be spending money on your product
Which is frustrating, but at least I can look forward to getting trades of DC's Hanna Barbera line
I really, really don't think Marvel is going to portray Hydra as anything close to good. They'll portray Steve as thinking he's in the right but that's not the same as treating them like the good guys.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
http://screenrant.com/marvel-narmor-sub-mariner-movie-inhumans/
Sideshow did a custom Daredevil design for a figure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94FsJcYW0Uc
I had NO IDEA that the whole distribution model was so fucked. Like, I've looked at the Previews magazine/catalog/300-pound monstrosity while I was in the store before but I didn't know that was the ONLY thing that mattered. That's insane!
It explains why the guys who ran the shop looked at me funny sometimes when I asked if they got certain books in stock, I never knew I had to pre-order stuff.
I just walk into the shop and grab them