I was actually surprised to see the purple there too, that was interesting. Good information there, I wish a lot of communities would use some of this stuff.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I was actually surprised to see the purple there too, that was interesting. Good information there, I wish a lot of communities would use some of this stuff.
Intersectionality is a huge thing, and modern feminism is very interested in mens issues as well.
Because, sooner or later, they become womens issues.
Which is why i get so pissed when someone comes and asks "but what about men?".
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
The hope is that if the person is genuinely interested in learning more about feminism/etc and being an ally, finding a page that is against women/LGBTQ issues/POC/etc will not somehow go under their radar and trick them into believing "oh wait, these things are bad". These pages are usually extremely overt in their hate. Not very hard to parse the two.
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
The hope is that if the person is genuinely interested in learning more about feminism/etc and being an ally, finding a page that is against women/LGBTQ issues/POC/etc will not somehow go under their radar and trick them into believing "oh wait, these things are bad". These pages are usually extremely overt in their hate. Not very hard to parse the two.
You're right! Some do disguise themselves, but most are very.. hatey.
Thanks to both of you for entertaining my questions though.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
The hope is that if the person is genuinely interested in learning more about feminism/etc and being an ally, finding a page that is against women/LGBTQ issues/POC/etc will not somehow go under their radar and trick them into believing "oh wait, these things are bad". These pages are usually extremely overt in their hate. Not very hard to parse the two.
You're right! Some do disguise themselves, but most are very.. hatey.
Thanks to both of you for entertaining my questions though.
Facebook can be a hard one especially, since you have the option of actually creating your own echo chamber.
To your earlier point re: Google, I'd never heard that Google will take your history of searches/interests into account when you perform a web search function, and change your results accordingly. The only time I've ever seen anything similar was when I was looking up reference on Image Search, Google might suggest something to me that was very related to the topic I was searching at the moment.
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
The hope is that if the person is genuinely interested in learning more about feminism/etc and being an ally, finding a page that is against women/LGBTQ issues/POC/etc will not somehow go under their radar and trick them into believing "oh wait, these things are bad". These pages are usually extremely overt in their hate. Not very hard to parse the two.
You're right! Some do disguise themselves, but most are very.. hatey.
Thanks to both of you for entertaining my questions though.
Facebook can be a hard one especially, since you have the option of actually creating your own echo chamber.
To your earlier point re: Google, I'd never heard that Google will take your history of searches/interests into account when you perform a web search function, and change your results accordingly. The only time I've ever seen anything similar was when I was looking up reference on Image Search, Google might suggest something to me that was very related to the topic I was searching at the moment.
It depends on how vigilant you are in regards to your online privacy.
Most of the people at PA are probably pretty good at this stuff, but, the average Joe probably not.
Also, the people at PA are very unlikely to be the kinds of people to be in an echo chamber to begin with, so your results are probably "fairly standard".
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
edit: when it's not self-evident that someone is correct, demanding humble prostration as the entry to a conversation is the height of condescending goosery. It's quite likely to only trigger "well, you might be right about this topic or you might be wrong, but I'm not going to kiss your ass to find out so see ya" and that is very corrosive to broadening the appeal and penetration (hah) of feminist ideas.
It's not kissing your ass, it's being respectful of others who know the subject better than you do and being open to learn what they have to say. It's like being a student in class. If you're not being perceived as being open that everything you know might be wrong, people will think you're operating in bad faith.
edit: I agree with your "Google it" response, btw.
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
The hope is that if the person is genuinely interested in learning more about feminism/etc and being an ally, finding a page that is against women/LGBTQ issues/POC/etc will not somehow go under their radar and trick them into believing "oh wait, these things are bad". These pages are usually extremely overt in their hate. Not very hard to parse the two.
Less of a problem than, again, a mother of two wondering why Tay Sway is against feminism and discovering that hey, there's a whole subset of feminism that thinks her life choices are horrible.
If you're setting up a group like that, and are interested in really fixing a problem, you would make a FAQ or section dedicated to asking and answering questions.
A simple FAQ of it, in your group, that can continually be updated and linked to is perfect. It's a bit more personable than "google it" because you're actually providing the answers and questions for them, instead of directing them to a google search where they may not know how to ask it right, or find very dangerous/bad information with it, since google will actually filter results based on how it thinks you look at the world (anti-vaxxers, for example, will find many more anti-vaxx stuff than you or I).
Exactly.
I see now that you've posted an example but I already saved most of this draft so I'm gonna post it anyway.
In technical subreddits, it's common for thread administrators to deploy some combination of three techniques for managing newbies:
A) Put links to FAQs and other basic resources in the sidebar. Allow newbie questions one day a week.
C) Spin off a sister subreddit
That way newbies can still get their questions answered without cluttering up the main group.
When Reddit techbros do a better job welcoming newcomers than your group, that's a sign that maybe you should reconsider your tactics.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
There may be no course prerequisites.
But neither are we teachers.
We are here to discuss, not teach "Whe women should be equal 101" course.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect people to do some basic studying on their own.
Except this thread has coveted exactly how wide opinions in feminism range and how much is disagreed upon. So we’re not teachers, and if we are there’s no agreed upon textbook.
Beyond that, I find the analogy flawed because this isn’t school. You don’t have a captive audience. Really you’re not even trying to educate, you’re trying to bring people around to your way of thinking and this change society and the world. You can brush people off but it seems extremely counterintuitive.
Is it a pain and trial to say the same things over and over to different people? Yes, but changing society ain’t a cakewalk.
And that cuts right to the heart of things, doesn't it? "Why should I have to do the work when I'm right and they're the ones who should change?" is the thread running through all this, when certainly within the realm of "feminism" in all its permutations, the underlying assumption is deeply flawed.
Feminism is in an interesting position. It’s both ubiquitous enough that everyone is expected to be one or be educated on it, but feminists also view society as sexist down to the foundations. Its not nescisarily contradictory but it is precarious.
With sexism it's easy to do without thinking its sexist, by simply following various directions in society which everyone does. Feminism is new, so while it may be doing the same thing there are many areas it hasn't caught on so it's playing catch up to toxic influences. Learning about feminism is how you learn how to identify these things, because you're questioning how society functions at the base level rather than accepting everything without question.
this is going to sound hypocritical but if you really want other people to be your students, you should probably Google how to teach sensitive or controversial topics, or feminism specifically.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I am not asking for anyones first born here, lurk a bit, listen, go to wikipedia to do 5 minutes of reading, ask for help in learning instead of demanding explanations.
Is that truly so horrible?
that all depends on how you ask, doesn't it?
That's why you should ask, or lurk, many opinions on the subject for second opinions. Also, reading websites like wikipedia. It's not perfect, but it's some place to start. Feminism is a subject which is very complicated with a lot of history, so it's important to be patient and curious because there's a lot of material to catch up on.
Also if it sounds like a chore, then maybe you actually wanted to discuss something else. That's perfectly fine.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
If a person doesn't engage with you on your terms, don't engage with them. Just break off the conversation. The great thing about a forum is that you can freely choose which quote tree to respond to
You don't have to engage, what you should do is listen. You may ultimately disagree, but you need to spent time learning about what the other side's opinion is before writing them off because they're not going to operate on your terms. Your terms for engagement may be perceived as being in bad faith by others, as well.
If a person doesn't engage with you on your terms, don't engage with them. Just break off the conversation. The great thing about a forum is that you can freely choose which quote tree to respond to
You don't have to engage, what you should do is listen. You may ultimately disagree, but you need to spent time learning about what the other side's opinion is before writing them off because they're not going to operate on your terms. Your terms for engagement may be perceived as being in bad faith by others, as well.
That is extremely hard when the ideas of one side are offensive to you and you can't help but speak up. At that point, the situation stops being a discussion and starts being a demonstration
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
this is going to sound hypocritical but if you really want other people to be your students, you should probably Google how to teach sensitive or controversial topics, or feminism specifically.
...amazing.
"If you want other people to be your students" might be appropriate if you have created a thread/OP that's all about "learning about Feminism 101"
...but this often comes up instead with people assigning women the automatic role of "teacher of sexism/feminism/etc", whether the women in question want that role or not. It's exhausting to be in that role.
What is the "student's" responsibility, in this case? Again, they need to do research on their own. They can't expect that everything is handed to them.
this is going to sound hypocritical but if you really want other people to be your students, you should probably Google how to teach sensitive or controversial topics, or feminism specifically.
Also if it sounds like a chore, then maybe you actually wanted to discuss something else. That's perfectly fine.
They just want to discuss the subject with people who caught up or aren't perceived as acting in bad faith.
This is why wikipedia is very helpful, again, not perfect, but a resource you can use on your own for a base to start with before delving into deeper discussions.
It's also important to acknowledge that how people react will be a spectrum, not everyone will want to teach you or be open but others might. So, lurk a bit learn their personalities and what they know and ask once you're certain they'll be open to that line of discussion.
this is going to sound hypocritical but if you really want other people to be your students, you should probably Google how to teach sensitive or controversial topics, or feminism specifically.
...amazing.
"If you want other people to be your students" might be appropriate if you have created a thread/OP that's all about "learning about Feminism 101"
...but this often comes up instead with people assigning women the automatic role of "teacher of sexism/feminism/etc", whether the women in question wants that role or not. It's exhausting to be in that role.
What is the "student's" responsibility, in this case? Again, they need to do research on their own. They can't expect that everything is handed to them.
It's exhausting because everybody else abdicates the role - including the people that want to move on.
You don't have to teach if you don't want to. I expect maybe 1% of all participants to be good teachers.
You know what, though? I expect just about the same frequency of people to be good students. People in general are just plain lazy when it comes to education. That is normal and should be tolerated in amateur public discussion.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That is extremely hard when the ideas of one side are offensive to you and you can't help but speak up. At that point, the situation stops being a discussion and starts being a demonstration
Well yes, when a student at a lecture is just there to shut down a teacher's program people are going to react hostile to you about that. I can't think of any ideology who would do that, and not go on the attack.
This is why it's important to figure out who will be on the same wavelength as you before engaging, then you'll be avoiding conflicts. Then there's understanding the context of where you're participating in, and where everyone is coming from.
That is extremely hard when the ideas of one side are offensive to you and you can't help but speak up. At that point, the situation stops being a discussion and starts being a demonstration
Well yes, when a student at a lecture is just there to shut down a teacher's program people are going to react hostile to you about that. I can't think of any ideology who would do that, and not go on the attack.
This is why it's important to figure out who will be on the same wavelength as you before engaging, then you'll be avoiding conflicts. Then there's understanding the context of where you're participating in, and where everyone is coming from.
There are certain methods you can use to prevent outbursts without resorting to extreme vetting. The Yale Center for Teaching and Learning has several entry level tips on the subject.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That is extremely hard when the ideas of one side are offensive to you and you can't help but speak up. At that point, the situation stops being a discussion and starts being a demonstration
Well yes, when a student at a lecture is just there to shut down a teacher's program people are going to react hostile to you about that. I can't think of any ideology who would do that, and not go on the attack.
This is why it's important to figure out who will be on the same wavelength as you before engaging, then you'll be avoiding conflicts. Then there's understanding the context of where you're participating in, and where everyone is coming from.
There are certain methods you can use to prevent outbursts without resorting to extreme vetting. The Yale Center for Teaching and Learning has several entry level tips on the subject.
That would be helpful.
That said, if a student is unwilling to learn why should someone teach them? There is a low bar to clear for a conversation and learning, and this is a more nuanced learning ground than attending a college course. That's why you have to pay attention to where you're engaging, and what is expected of everyone.
edit: Some groups will be more willing to teaching you and discussion than others, that's why you need to understand the context for the setting (lurking is good for this), and research many areas where the discussion is until you find the right one for you - rather than simply being confrontational with the first person you speak to because you don't agree with them. If people think you're just looking for a fight, they'll assume you're operating in bad faith. Build trust first, on both sides.
All feminists must be perfect pragons of tolerance, understanding and helpfulness at all times.
I know, well, hope, that this is not the intent behind the arguments here, but it sometimes feels like it.
Responding to an example of somebody taking an idea to an extreme by assuming that what I want (or the poster in question wants) must be the exact opposite extreme is really uncharitable, Nyysjan.
I am not asking for anyones first born here, lurk a bit, listen, go to wikipedia to do 5 minutes of reading, ask for help in learning instead of demanding explanations.
Is that truly so horrible?
Asking a question isn't the same as demanding explanations.
Or, to put it another way:
I am not asking for anyone's first born here. If somebody in a Facebook/Twitter/Reddit thread asks a question and you don't have the time or energy to answer it, then just ignore it. Scroll your browser.
If you don't want to do emotional labor, then don't do it. Commenting in an open thread "I don't want to do emotional labor for you" when nobody has named or batsignaled you isn't avoiding emotional labor, it's performing emotional labor. It's abusing the concept of emotional labor as a power play.
If somebody is pulling a spacekungfuman or a polite sea lion move, using "just asking questions" as a deliberate attempt to derail, that will become apparent eventually. Treating every newcomer who asks a question as a potential troll the first time they ask a question isn't a healthy group dynamic.
This is also different from the usual ways that people are demanded to perform unpaid emotional labor, like when the one black person at the office is constantly badgered to explain BLM or when a woman is forced to explain why she doesn't like rape jokes over xbox voice chat. There's a huge chasm of difference between somebody posing a general question to a group vs somebody singling you out for attention.
If you don't want to take on the emotional labor of explaining basic concepts to newcomers, then don't! There are always people like me who are willing to do it for you. (A lot of feminists believe that this specifically one of the jobs of the feminist ally.) And I hope I've amply demonstrated that I am happy to take on that emotional labor. If you don't believe me, then here's some evidence:
If you're telling people "just google it" or "do your own research" on a controversial topic, you absolutely cannot guarantee that they're going to find links sympathetic with your cause.
This isn't like googling instructions on how to set up your wifi router.
Even if they find links sympathetic with your cause, you can't guarantee that they'll understand them or take them to heart.
At the very least, link to an FAQ like Bowen did upthread.
BTW, "just google it " and "do your own research" happen to be catchphrases of conspiracy theorists and woo-peddlers. It's not a good look.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
That is extremely hard when the ideas of one side are offensive to you and you can't help but speak up. At that point, the situation stops being a discussion and starts being a demonstration
Well yes, when a student at a lecture is just there to shut down a teacher's program people are going to react hostile to you about that. I can't think of any ideology who would do that, and not go on the attack.
This is why it's important to figure out who will be on the same wavelength as you before engaging, then you'll be avoiding conflicts. Then there's understanding the context of where you're participating in, and where everyone is coming from.
There are certain methods you can use to prevent outbursts without resorting to extreme vetting. The Yale Center for Teaching and Learning has several entry level tips on the subject.
That would be helpful.
That said, if a student is unwilling to learn why should someone teach them? There is a low bar to clear for a conversation and learning, and this is a more nuanced learning ground than attending a college course. That's why you have to pay attention to where you're engaging, and what is expected of everyone.
edit: Some groups will be more willing to teaching you and discussion than others, that's why you need to understand the context for the setting (lurking is good for this), and research many areas where the discussion is until you find the right one for you - rather than simply being confrontational with the first person you speak to because you don't agree with them. If people think you're just looking for a fight, they'll assume you're operating in bad faith. Build trust first, on both sides.
From a practical perspective, I believe confronting suspected bad actors on say, the next feminism thread, while satisfying, is counterproductive. Easpecially when no thread specific ground rules have been laid beforehand.
This thread is not a general feminism thread. It is a subcategory focused on elucidating the differences between versions of feminism. It avoids the duty of general feminism threads to prove feminist concepts. Ground rules were laid very clearly and the objectives are easy to follow.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
No. Every time, it makes you a silly goose to react with frustration if people ask genuine questions. "Just google it" as a response just isn't polite - it can only be perceived as rude.
Now,
"hey, I know this seems like a big question for you but it's one that, within the scope of the conversation, has been answered a lot of times before. Please check the OP for links on some of these common questions, or you can also read [link provided] and [link provided] to get the groundwork under your belt."
THAT would be fine and is polite and welcoming and also doesn't use up much time for someone who purports to be versed enough in the topic to be successful themselves at "just googling it". There's a reason why lmgtfy.com is something silly geese use to insult people, and it's the same reason an abrupt brush-off is bad every time. Moreover, it suggests that parts of this conversation are not up for debate when mrmister's post earlier very well describes that debate about some core ideas are the opposite of settled even within the academic sphere... nevermind the wider activist community and the even wider society in general.
Let's further the comparison by having a new basic algebra student walk in every 30 seconds and ask the same question as the previous basic algebra student. This is similar to having to explain the basic tenants of feminism/toxic masculinity/etc every single time the topic is brought up in real life. After the 50th student walks in, if somebody said "just Google it" I wouldn't really see that as the person being a goose? The 50th student doesn't know they're the 50th student, they just think they're the 1st student to ask and don't understand that their question is easily answered elsewhere. They don't understand the reaction they're getting, and I get that. I've been on the opposing end for these topics a lot, and I don't blame somebody for suggesting that somebody else Google it, because the answers to these basic questions are everywhere. I generally try to just read and research a lot when I come up against a social topic I'm not super well-versed in. You can learn a huge amount on your own without placing the burden on the people who live through this stuff every day.
Groups like that often expect, yes, that you already have some very basic understanding of these concepts. It's the same thing as not requiring POC to explain basic racism to white people. The purpose of these groups is generally not "to be super welcoming to everybody and be super duper nice and make sure we don't offend anyone". They're also not "let's teach people basic tenants of this topic". They're typically discussion groups, where people who are already versed in these topics can have active discussions on the issues, rather than taking their time to teach every "early algebra student" the basics.
Which is why you can say the same thing without being a silly goose if you actually care about whether a new person gets educated - even if you don't have the time or energy to do it yourself. The brush off makes you just as much of a silly goose when it's algebra student #50 as it did for the first one. "just google it" is disdainful and insulting, full stop. If it's really that common and your community is really that upset over having to do it over and over, somebody take the initiative to do the research once and throw a notepad document on their desktop that they can cut and paste every time it comes up.
if you're operating in public, recognize that you're operating in public. Your little corner of the internet is not a corner unless you put some effort to screen off the rest of it. Private forums are free, ask any phalla player. If you don't want the uneducated masses to trouble you with basic questions and you can't muster the energy to ctrl+c, ctrl+v, sign up for a proboard and talk in peace.
*folds arms* hmmph.
Okay. Evidently there are a few elements here that you aren't presently aware of, so I'll explain them to you.
Feminism is a social movement that aims to change how women/gender in general is viewed by society. But it isn't just that. It doesn't just mean sitting around, very carefully planning out which words and actions are most expedient in advancing that objective, and then acting on them. Sometimes it's that, but more fundamentally, the first goal of feminism is to create a subculture in which women who feel like they have no place in mainstream culture can just exist and live and be. A place where our feelings and experiences can be understood and validated by our own community. A place where we can find refuge from the strain and abuse we suffer everywhere else. A place where having that first discussion is even possible.
When you're a woman (or trans, or gay, or black, or part of pretty much any marginalized group; this experience is pretty much universal), people treat you like crap all the time--even well-intentioned people--because mainstream culture has conditioned them to treat you like crap and they don't know better. So it falls on you to explain to them why the ideas and behaviors they've learned are wrong, 'cause god knows nobody else is ever going to help you out on that. And let me tell you, the response is almost never "oh, sorry, I didn't realize; I'll remember that." It's usually, "Wait wait wait, but really my biases are mostly still correct, right? Because of this and this and that." Because people get threatened when their long-held ideas are challenged. So you have to keep explaining, while they keep trying to challenge you. And the whole time, no matter how offended you get, no matter how justifiably angry you get, you can't show it. You're expected to walk on eggshells. Massage the ego of this person who's treating you like shit. Even though you know--know for a fact, from experience--that no matter how patient you are, no matter how much time and emotional energy you expend, there's a pretty good chance that this is one of the people who will never change their mind.
And then they walk away. And then you have an interaction with the next person. And it all starts over from the top.
Do you know what the main difference is, between your life and mine? Tomorrow, when you've gotten bored of this little conversation, you can close the tab, walk out in public, and have a reasonable assurance that you'll get treated like a normal person deserving of respect. I don't get that. Tomorrow, when you've wandered off, I get to deal with the next person who shows up and says, "You. Justify your existence to me. Do it right now, and do it the way I like it, or all the abuse you've gotten and will continue to get will be your fault for not doing a good job of it." And then again. Over and over and over and over and over andoverandoverandoverandover until I can't fucking take it anymore! Because a person can only feel marginalized for so long before they get frustrated, and frustrated people need to be able to vent.
I mean, Christ, look at me! I had to have an argument in the rape thread defending the right of women to say "no" to men who target them for unwanted advances. And then I had to have that same discussion in way more detail in the dating thread. And then I had to deal with getting cornered by one of those people in real life, on a subway alone at night. And now here I am defending against my experiences being invalidated yet again in the feminism thread, and oh wouldn't you know it it looks like I've gone and run out of fucks to give about politeness and decorum! Because the energy I need to maintain that veil of whitewashed bullshit has been physically drained by sheer exhaustion. And that's just the past week! And just the woman stuff, not even getting into the trans stuff and the lesbian stuff which are both the exact same story.
Those days when I run out of fucks, and I stop caring about being expected to talk to the patriarchy in the patriarchy's language, and I just say "oh my god, fuck men/the cis/straight people/whichever other wing of mainstream society has worn my sanity down to a nub this month", and I can feel surrounded by women/trans people/queer people who have felt the same way and sympathize with those feelings--those are the only days I get to feel like a normal person. Those are the only days that I get to feel like I exist in a culture that treats me like I deserve respect. And I am profoundly unsympathetic to the argument that I don't deserve to have that until men in mainstream society have decided that I deserve it.
From a practical perspective, I believe confronting suspected bad actors on say, the next feminism thread, while satisfying, is counterproductive. Easpecially when no thread specific ground rules have been laid beforehand.
This thread is not a general feminism thread. It is a subcategory focused on elucidating the differences between versions of feminism. It avoids the duty of general feminism threads to prove feminist concepts. Ground rules were laid very clearly and the objectives are easy to follow.
People aren't going to let bad actors go unchallenged, doing that cedes control to them so they will be chased out for good reasons. This is why if you're not a bad actor to 1) vet the site you're going to so the instant you say something it'll be the start of a conversation rather than the end of it, and 2) people will respond positively to your questions. Don't do either and you're going to have a hard time.
This is why I was bringing up understanding the context of where you're discussing things, you'll get a different reaction here by how the forum is set up than a Facebook Feminist group. Know your audience. Some groups will be hostile and be bad actors themselves, that's why you need to lurk so if you've found group like that just move on.
How people discuss feminism also can vary, you might not think this particular thread is helpful for you but another might be.
I won't lie, talking about this phenomenon like it happens elsewhere is a little strange. Even in this thread, I've noticed some posters dropping in and dropping 1-2 sentence bombs and then disappearing, while others (including myself) hop in to write 500+ word responses that may or may not even get read by the prompting poster.
I do it because I'm wired that way. But I'm also a preachy, condescending, man'splaining, elitist know-it-all. I'm also not a woman, so it's easier for me to view these subjects from a more distant viewpoint. And this is also a modded community, which means I'm both limited in what tone my responses can take and the worst I might expect of bad actor posters.
I'm really not sure most people would be up for this kinda thing, in an uncensored, unmoderated Wild West, especially if said FB group wasn't meant to be a Q&A group and more of a support/cross-talk group (depending on members' expectations, I suppose). The best I can realistically hope for is that people don't respond, but at the same time, given a large enough FB group, unless there's someone active and willing to take up these questions quickly, someone is gonna respond who maybe shouldn't.
Edit: And there was that diversion we took into jokes that prompted a mod post. I don't want to rehash the thread or discuss its moderation, but if this is the best place to have this sorta conversation on the Internet, I mean yeah, I'd consider it pretty likely that even this thread would test the patience of many feminists. Outside of this thread? No way I'm talking about any of this in any public FB group or page.
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
Telling someone to Google something is the same as in the analog days when someone would tell you to "figure it out yourself". It you're passionate enough about an issue to want to have a good discussion about it, you should be prepared to educate those you are discussing it with. This isn't a classroom setting where students can be assumed to have a similar baseline in education.
So if I'm understanding this right, it seems like male feminist allies are best suited to an evsngelism role. Because they aren't directly affected by the issues facing women they are likely going to be more capable of patiently explaining concepts without feeling oppressed by having to do so, which might also make them seem more objective. The lack of ability to really know what women go through is a minor drawback in comparison to the greater capacity for outreach.
The thing is that you'd still need women as the ones ultimately in charge and not just let men take over feminism or something.
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
Telling someone to Google something is the same as in the analog days when someone would tell you to "figure it out yourself". It you're passionate enough about an issue to want to have a good discussion about it, you should be prepared to educate those you are discussing it with. This isn't a classroom setting where students can be assumed to have a similar baseline in education.
You're missing the entire point, google curtails searches based on your preferences already. Someone who wants to learn might not be able to without digging 5+ pages into a google search to find good sources.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Just be careful about telling someone to google something though! Trust me about that "will redirect them into their echo chamber" because it happens with alarming frequency (facebook too).
Telling someone to Google something is the same as in the analog days when someone would tell you to "figure it out yourself". It you're passionate enough about an issue to want to have a good discussion about it, you should be prepared to educate those you are discussing it with. This isn't a classroom setting where students can be assumed to have a similar baseline in education.
You're missing the entire point, google curtails searches based on your preferences already. Someone who wants to learn might not be able to without digging 5+ pages into a google search to find good sources.
They'd be better off telling them to look up wikipedia.
Posts
I was actually surprised to see the purple there too, that was interesting. Good information there, I wish a lot of communities would use some of this stuff.
Because, sooner or later, they become womens issues.
Which is why i get so pissed when someone comes and asks "but what about men?".
The hope is that if the person is genuinely interested in learning more about feminism/etc and being an ally, finding a page that is against women/LGBTQ issues/POC/etc will not somehow go under their radar and trick them into believing "oh wait, these things are bad". These pages are usually extremely overt in their hate. Not very hard to parse the two.
You're right! Some do disguise themselves, but most are very.. hatey.
Thanks to both of you for entertaining my questions though.
Facebook can be a hard one especially, since you have the option of actually creating your own echo chamber.
To your earlier point re: Google, I'd never heard that Google will take your history of searches/interests into account when you perform a web search function, and change your results accordingly. The only time I've ever seen anything similar was when I was looking up reference on Image Search, Google might suggest something to me that was very related to the topic I was searching at the moment.
It depends on how vigilant you are in regards to your online privacy.
Most of the people at PA are probably pretty good at this stuff, but, the average Joe probably not.
This link goes into some details on it:
http://www.webpresencesolutions.net/7-reasons-google-search-results-vary-dramatically/
If you let google or chrome keep track of your search history on your google account it's going to put you in a pretty deep echo chamber.
It's not kissing your ass, it's being respectful of others who know the subject better than you do and being open to learn what they have to say. It's like being a student in class. If you're not being perceived as being open that everything you know might be wrong, people will think you're operating in bad faith.
edit: I agree with your "Google it" response, btw.
Less of a problem than, again, a mother of two wondering why Tay Sway is against feminism and discovering that hey, there's a whole subset of feminism that thinks her life choices are horrible.
Here's mine:
Exactly.
I see now that you've posted an example but I already saved most of this draft so I'm gonna post it anyway.
In technical subreddits, it's common for thread administrators to deploy some combination of three techniques for managing newbies:
A) Put links to FAQs and other basic resources in the sidebar.
C) Spin off a sister subreddit
That way newbies can still get their questions answered without cluttering up the main group.
When Reddit techbros do a better job welcoming newcomers than your group, that's a sign that maybe you should reconsider your tactics.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
With sexism it's easy to do without thinking its sexist, by simply following various directions in society which everyone does. Feminism is new, so while it may be doing the same thing there are many areas it hasn't caught on so it's playing catch up to toxic influences. Learning about feminism is how you learn how to identify these things, because you're questioning how society functions at the base level rather than accepting everything without question.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That's why you should ask, or lurk, many opinions on the subject for second opinions. Also, reading websites like wikipedia. It's not perfect, but it's some place to start. Feminism is a subject which is very complicated with a lot of history, so it's important to be patient and curious because there's a lot of material to catch up on.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
You don't have to engage, what you should do is listen. You may ultimately disagree, but you need to spent time learning about what the other side's opinion is before writing them off because they're not going to operate on your terms. Your terms for engagement may be perceived as being in bad faith by others, as well.
That is extremely hard when the ideas of one side are offensive to you and you can't help but speak up. At that point, the situation stops being a discussion and starts being a demonstration
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Or to put it even more on the nose:
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
...amazing.
"If you want other people to be your students" might be appropriate if you have created a thread/OP that's all about "learning about Feminism 101"
...but this often comes up instead with people assigning women the automatic role of "teacher of sexism/feminism/etc", whether the women in question want that role or not. It's exhausting to be in that role.
What is the "student's" responsibility, in this case? Again, they need to do research on their own. They can't expect that everything is handed to them.
They just want to discuss the subject with people who caught up or aren't perceived as acting in bad faith.
This is why wikipedia is very helpful, again, not perfect, but a resource you can use on your own for a base to start with before delving into deeper discussions.
It's also important to acknowledge that how people react will be a spectrum, not everyone will want to teach you or be open but others might. So, lurk a bit learn their personalities and what they know and ask once you're certain they'll be open to that line of discussion.
It's exhausting because everybody else abdicates the role - including the people that want to move on.
You don't have to teach if you don't want to. I expect maybe 1% of all participants to be good teachers.
You know what, though? I expect just about the same frequency of people to be good students. People in general are just plain lazy when it comes to education. That is normal and should be tolerated in amateur public discussion.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Well yes, when a student at a lecture is just there to shut down a teacher's program people are going to react hostile to you about that. I can't think of any ideology who would do that, and not go on the attack.
This is why it's important to figure out who will be on the same wavelength as you before engaging, then you'll be avoiding conflicts. Then there's understanding the context of where you're participating in, and where everyone is coming from.
There are certain methods you can use to prevent outbursts without resorting to extreme vetting. The Yale Center for Teaching and Learning has several entry level tips on the subject.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
You can always get the default search if you start up a private browsing session
That would be helpful.
That said, if a student is unwilling to learn why should someone teach them? There is a low bar to clear for a conversation and learning, and this is a more nuanced learning ground than attending a college course. That's why you have to pay attention to where you're engaging, and what is expected of everyone.
edit: Some groups will be more willing to teaching you and discussion than others, that's why you need to understand the context for the setting (lurking is good for this), and research many areas where the discussion is until you find the right one for you - rather than simply being confrontational with the first person you speak to because you don't agree with them. If people think you're just looking for a fight, they'll assume you're operating in bad faith. Build trust first, on both sides.
Responding to an example of somebody taking an idea to an extreme by assuming that what I want (or the poster in question wants) must be the exact opposite extreme is really uncharitable, Nyysjan.
Asking a question isn't the same as demanding explanations.
Or, to put it another way:
I am not asking for anyone's first born here. If somebody in a Facebook/Twitter/Reddit thread asks a question and you don't have the time or energy to answer it, then just ignore it. Scroll your browser.
If you don't want to do emotional labor, then don't do it. Commenting in an open thread "I don't want to do emotional labor for you" when nobody has named or batsignaled you isn't avoiding emotional labor, it's performing emotional labor. It's abusing the concept of emotional labor as a power play.
If somebody is pulling a spacekungfuman or a polite sea lion move, using "just asking questions" as a deliberate attempt to derail, that will become apparent eventually. Treating every newcomer who asks a question as a potential troll the first time they ask a question isn't a healthy group dynamic.
This is also different from the usual ways that people are demanded to perform unpaid emotional labor, like when the one black person at the office is constantly badgered to explain BLM or when a woman is forced to explain why she doesn't like rape jokes over xbox voice chat. There's a huge chasm of difference between somebody posing a general question to a group vs somebody singling you out for attention.
If you don't want to take on the emotional labor of explaining basic concepts to newcomers, then don't! There are always people like me who are willing to do it for you. (A lot of feminists believe that this specifically one of the jobs of the feminist ally.) And I hope I've amply demonstrated that I am happy to take on that emotional labor. If you don't believe me, then here's some evidence:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aforums.penny-arcade.com+feral+(feminism+OR+sexism+OR+masculinity)
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Right, I know that.
But not everyone does.
This isn't like googling instructions on how to set up your wifi router.
Even if they find links sympathetic with your cause, you can't guarantee that they'll understand them or take them to heart.
At the very least, link to an FAQ like Bowen did upthread.
BTW, "just google it " and "do your own research" happen to be catchphrases of conspiracy theorists and woo-peddlers. It's not a good look.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
From a practical perspective, I believe confronting suspected bad actors on say, the next feminism thread, while satisfying, is counterproductive. Easpecially when no thread specific ground rules have been laid beforehand.
This thread is not a general feminism thread. It is a subcategory focused on elucidating the differences between versions of feminism. It avoids the duty of general feminism threads to prove feminist concepts. Ground rules were laid very clearly and the objectives are easy to follow.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Feminism is a social movement that aims to change how women/gender in general is viewed by society. But it isn't just that. It doesn't just mean sitting around, very carefully planning out which words and actions are most expedient in advancing that objective, and then acting on them. Sometimes it's that, but more fundamentally, the first goal of feminism is to create a subculture in which women who feel like they have no place in mainstream culture can just exist and live and be. A place where our feelings and experiences can be understood and validated by our own community. A place where we can find refuge from the strain and abuse we suffer everywhere else. A place where having that first discussion is even possible.
When you're a woman (or trans, or gay, or black, or part of pretty much any marginalized group; this experience is pretty much universal), people treat you like crap all the time--even well-intentioned people--because mainstream culture has conditioned them to treat you like crap and they don't know better. So it falls on you to explain to them why the ideas and behaviors they've learned are wrong, 'cause god knows nobody else is ever going to help you out on that. And let me tell you, the response is almost never "oh, sorry, I didn't realize; I'll remember that." It's usually, "Wait wait wait, but really my biases are mostly still correct, right? Because of this and this and that." Because people get threatened when their long-held ideas are challenged. So you have to keep explaining, while they keep trying to challenge you. And the whole time, no matter how offended you get, no matter how justifiably angry you get, you can't show it. You're expected to walk on eggshells. Massage the ego of this person who's treating you like shit. Even though you know--know for a fact, from experience--that no matter how patient you are, no matter how much time and emotional energy you expend, there's a pretty good chance that this is one of the people who will never change their mind.
And then they walk away. And then you have an interaction with the next person. And it all starts over from the top.
Do you know what the main difference is, between your life and mine? Tomorrow, when you've gotten bored of this little conversation, you can close the tab, walk out in public, and have a reasonable assurance that you'll get treated like a normal person deserving of respect. I don't get that. Tomorrow, when you've wandered off, I get to deal with the next person who shows up and says, "You. Justify your existence to me. Do it right now, and do it the way I like it, or all the abuse you've gotten and will continue to get will be your fault for not doing a good job of it." And then again. Over and over and over and over and over andoverandoverandoverandover until I can't fucking take it anymore! Because a person can only feel marginalized for so long before they get frustrated, and frustrated people need to be able to vent.
I mean, Christ, look at me! I had to have an argument in the rape thread defending the right of women to say "no" to men who target them for unwanted advances. And then I had to have that same discussion in way more detail in the dating thread. And then I had to deal with getting cornered by one of those people in real life, on a subway alone at night. And now here I am defending against my experiences being invalidated yet again in the feminism thread, and oh wouldn't you know it it looks like I've gone and run out of fucks to give about politeness and decorum! Because the energy I need to maintain that veil of whitewashed bullshit has been physically drained by sheer exhaustion. And that's just the past week! And just the woman stuff, not even getting into the trans stuff and the lesbian stuff which are both the exact same story.
Those days when I run out of fucks, and I stop caring about being expected to talk to the patriarchy in the patriarchy's language, and I just say "oh my god, fuck men/the cis/straight people/whichever other wing of mainstream society has worn my sanity down to a nub this month", and I can feel surrounded by women/trans people/queer people who have felt the same way and sympathize with those feelings--those are the only days I get to feel like a normal person. Those are the only days that I get to feel like I exist in a culture that treats me like I deserve respect. And I am profoundly unsympathetic to the argument that I don't deserve to have that until men in mainstream society have decided that I deserve it.
People aren't going to let bad actors go unchallenged, doing that cedes control to them so they will be chased out for good reasons. This is why if you're not a bad actor to 1) vet the site you're going to so the instant you say something it'll be the start of a conversation rather than the end of it, and 2) people will respond positively to your questions. Don't do either and you're going to have a hard time.
This is why I was bringing up understanding the context of where you're discussing things, you'll get a different reaction here by how the forum is set up than a Facebook Feminist group. Know your audience. Some groups will be hostile and be bad actors themselves, that's why you need to lurk so if you've found group like that just move on.
How people discuss feminism also can vary, you might not think this particular thread is helpful for you but another might be.
I do it because I'm wired that way. But I'm also a preachy, condescending, man'splaining, elitist know-it-all. I'm also not a woman, so it's easier for me to view these subjects from a more distant viewpoint. And this is also a modded community, which means I'm both limited in what tone my responses can take and the worst I might expect of bad actor posters.
I'm really not sure most people would be up for this kinda thing, in an uncensored, unmoderated Wild West, especially if said FB group wasn't meant to be a Q&A group and more of a support/cross-talk group (depending on members' expectations, I suppose). The best I can realistically hope for is that people don't respond, but at the same time, given a large enough FB group, unless there's someone active and willing to take up these questions quickly, someone is gonna respond who maybe shouldn't.
Edit: And there was that diversion we took into jokes that prompted a mod post. I don't want to rehash the thread or discuss its moderation, but if this is the best place to have this sorta conversation on the Internet, I mean yeah, I'd consider it pretty likely that even this thread would test the patience of many feminists. Outside of this thread? No way I'm talking about any of this in any public FB group or page.
Telling someone to Google something is the same as in the analog days when someone would tell you to "figure it out yourself". It you're passionate enough about an issue to want to have a good discussion about it, you should be prepared to educate those you are discussing it with. This isn't a classroom setting where students can be assumed to have a similar baseline in education.
The thing is that you'd still need women as the ones ultimately in charge and not just let men take over feminism or something.
You're missing the entire point, google curtails searches based on your preferences already. Someone who wants to learn might not be able to without digging 5+ pages into a google search to find good sources.
They'd be better off telling them to look up wikipedia.
does not seem like a complicated question to ask.