My perspective is that Bungie doesn't like loot cave shit and put in a ton of preemptive throttling to prevent people doing the same thing over and over and over and over for rewards. I don't think XP was throttled for any other reason than it's considered a reward the same as gear or glimmer is. I do think they fucked up by not exposing any of the throttling systems to the player, but I think the shitstorm resulting from it is fifty times louder than is actually warranted.
Bungie knew about the loot cave prior to release and didn’t care because it was less efficient than simply playing the game. They eventually fixed it because it generated more player reports than any thing else in the game's history up to 2015. People got mad and reported people for using the loot cave, others went in and took it upon themselves to sit in the cave to prevent others from using it, which in turn produced a bunch of reports. I think they have come to the conclusion that quick farming methods are ultimately not good for the game or player satisfaction, and thus try and squash them all, but their initial policy, at least was to assess whether it distorted the loot economy.
Finally got a Vigilance Wing last night. Hooooly shit. That thing is murderous. Took me a while to get a hang of the recoil on the 5 round bursts but once I did I was dropping fools left right and center with it. In addition to that, I finished my IB Titan armor set and Vigilance Wing was the last exotic I needed to catch em all. Just in time for the expansion right around the corner! Very excited for that.
It will kill most guardians in three body bursts.
Which makes it a completely insane teamshot weapon.
Also it looks like you are pointing at dog at people
A fucking big yappy dog that won't get the fuck out of the way when you are aiming down the back of it's neck, yeah.
My perspective is that Bungie doesn't like loot cave shit and put in a ton of preemptive throttling to prevent people doing the same thing over and over and over and over for rewards. I don't think XP was throttled for any other reason than it's considered a reward the same as gear or glimmer is. I do think they fucked up by not exposing any of the throttling systems to the player, but I think the shitstorm resulting from it is fifty times louder than is actually warranted.
Bungie knew about the loot cave prior to release and didn’t care because it was less efficient than simply playing the game. They eventually fixed it because it generated more player reports than any thing else in the game's history up to 2015. People got mad and reported people for using the loot cave, others went in and took it upon themselves to sit in the cave to prevent others from using it, which in turn produced a bunch of reports. I think they have come to the conclusion that quick farming methods are ultimately not good for the game or player satisfaction, and thus try and squash them all, but their initial policy, at least was to assess whether it distorted the loot economy.
But here's something they could have found in basic testing: A guy sells maps for treasure chests. If a player goes from one chest to the next closest chest at normal speed, does that trigger the "anti-farm" contingency? Are we, possibly idiots for doing this?
Melee needs to be a 2-hit kill, regardless of Resilience. It is absolutely absurd that you can melee someone twice and they'll have a sliver of health. If you can get close enough to melee twice without dying? Fuck em, THEY should be dead.
Also, Tone Patrol is my new jam.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
As for the xp throttling System, I do indeed agree with Surfpossum and our confederates.
I would point out that in keeping with the "this is in keeping with Bungie’s approach” argument, Bungie have often stated that they want to incentivise people trying all sorts of things. But this doesn’t obviously incentivise anything, as it is far too obfuscated. If anything, it seems like it keeps the economies of reward stable without impacting the player experience by saying "public event farming debuff in effect" or having some system that prevents you from being able to chain public events.
I think that ideally the numbers shown ought be reflective of the reality the xp earned, but I am also surprised that it matters to anyone. None of my gameplay decisions revolve around the XP awarded other than when I am leveling a character, that this might be different for others is quite strange to me.
I am ALSO curious as to whether a similar system was in effect in D1
My perspective is that Bungie doesn't like loot cave shit and put in a ton of preemptive throttling to prevent people doing the same thing over and over and over and over for rewards. I don't think XP was throttled for any other reason than it's considered a reward the same as gear or glimmer is. I do think they fucked up by not exposing any of the throttling systems to the player, but I think the shitstorm resulting from it is fifty times louder than is actually warranted.
Bungie knew about the loot cave prior to release and didn’t care because it was less efficient than simply playing the game. They eventually fixed it because it generated more player reports than any thing else in the game's history up to 2015. People got mad and reported people for using the loot cave, others went in and took it upon themselves to sit in the cave to prevent others from using it, which in turn produced a bunch of reports. I think they have come to the conclusion that quick farming methods are ultimately not good for the game or player satisfaction, and thus try and squash them all, but their initial policy, at least was to assess whether it distorted the loot economy.
But here's something they could have found in basic testing: A guy sells maps for treasure chests. If a player goes from one chest to the next closest chest at normal speed, does that trigger the "anti-farm" contingency? Are we, possibly idiots for doing this?
Ok.
+1
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Melee needs to be a 2-hit kill, regardless of Resilience. It is absolutely absurd that you can melee someone twice and they'll have a sliver of health. If you can get close enough to melee twice without dying? Fuck em, THEY should be dead.
Also, Tone Patrol is my new jam.
Le problem is that this messes up some of the new perk systems: the power of Juggernaut Strikers, Protector Sentinals, Warrior Staff Supervisors and Titans with Synthoceps (and possibly Sunbreaker punchy bois) is that they can in particular circumstances 2 hit melee.
Whether or not it would be better, it is going to be a major, major rebalance if it were to be reimplemented.
My theory is that loot based games are prone to community angst because at some level the most dedicated players know they are being manipulated
Also bungie is hella bad at PR
Interesting theory, I will meditate upon it
I don’t know if Bungie are particularly bad at PR, I don’t think they are good and the effects are certainly not what they want. But I am forced to wonder if there is any satisfaction condition within their reach due to the complexities of the game/development/internal shitshows, the breadth of the community, expectations around how fans are pandered to, general internet insanities etc.
+2
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Finally got a Vigilance Wing last night. Hooooly shit. That thing is murderous. Took me a while to get a hang of the recoil on the 5 round bursts but once I did I was dropping fools left right and center with it. In addition to that, I finished my IB Titan armor set and Vigilance Wing was the last exotic I needed to catch em all. Just in time for the expansion right around the corner! Very excited for that.
It will kill most guardians in three body bursts.
Which makes it a completely insane teamshot weapon.
Also it looks like you are pointing at dog at people
A fucking big yappy dog that won't get the fuck out of the way when you are aiming down the back of it's neck, yeah.
it's a good dog shrike
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SurfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
My perspective is that Bungie doesn't like loot cave shit and put in a ton of preemptive throttling to prevent people doing the same thing over and over and over and over for rewards. I don't think XP was throttled for any other reason than it's considered a reward the same as gear or glimmer is. I do think they fucked up by not exposing any of the throttling systems to the player, but I think the shitstorm resulting from it is fifty times louder than is actually warranted.
Bungie knew about the loot cave prior to release and didn’t care because it was less efficient than simply playing the game. They eventually fixed it because it generated more player reports than any thing else in the game's history up to 2015. People got mad and reported people for using the loot cave, others went in and took it upon themselves to sit in the cave to prevent others from using it, which in turn produced a bunch of reports. I think they have come to the conclusion that quick farming methods are ultimately not good for the game or player satisfaction, and thus try and squash them all, but their initial policy, at least was to assess whether it distorted the loot economy.
But here's something they could have found in basic testing: A guy sells maps for treasure chests. If a player goes from one chest to the next closest chest at normal speed, does that trigger the "anti-farm" contingency? Are we, possibly idiots for doing this?
So I read the bolded as "we, the players," and was like, well, that is a little bit harsh but
My theory is that loot based games are prone to community angst because at some level the most dedicated players know they are being manipulated
Also bungie is hella bad at PR
Interesting theory, I will meditate upon it
I don’t know if Bungie are particularly bad at PR, I don’t think they are good and the effects are certainly not what they want. But I am forced to wonder if there is any satisfaction condition within their reach due to the complexities of the game/development/internal shitshows, the breadth of the community, expectations around how fans are pandered to, general internet insanities etc.
I don’t think it takes a CHARISMA WIZARD to realize that releasing a statement about experience problems then surreptitiously doubling the level quota was going to result in a shitstorm, actual effect on gameplay be damned
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
This is almost as bad as Blizzard thinking nobody would use the Auction House much in D3.
The problem with the idea of players buying better gear and not focusing on the RNG drops is that, for like 2-ish years of D1's 3 year lifetime that was simply not an option. Vendor gear was not better than god-roll guns. It was not even as good as god-roll guns. I would wager that if the best guns were available from vendors all along then yeah, people wouldn't have paid as much attention to RNG gun stats.
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
This is almost as bad as Blizzard thinking nobody would use the Auction House much in D3.
The problem with the idea of players buying better gear and not focusing on the RNG drops is that, for like 2-ish years of D1's 3 year lifetime that was simply not an option. Vendor gear was not better than god-roll guns. It was not even as good as god-roll guns. I would wager that if the best guns were available from vendors all along then yeah, people wouldn't have paid as much attention to RNG gun stats.
Plus you could only earn 50 marks a week, for crucible and vanguard vendors. Which was SLOW AF
Year 1, no. The vendor weapons only changed when they got replaced by the next DLC's weapons.
Think Taken King had some re-rolls, but I'm not 100% on that. Might've only happened when RoI came around. Definitely remember the original Hung Jury god roll got replaced with something less spectacular at some point.
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
This is almost as bad as Blizzard thinking nobody would use the Auction House much in D3.
The problem with the idea of players buying better gear and not focusing on the RNG drops is that, for like 2-ish years of D1's 3 year lifetime that was simply not an option. Vendor gear was not better than god-roll guns. It was not even as good as god-roll guns. I would wager that if the best guns were available from vendors all along then yeah, people wouldn't have paid as much attention to RNG gun stats.
I mean, that's what makes it dumb thing to hope for on their part. Blizzard didn't realize that the Auction House would almost immediately be filled with the top 1% or whatever of items, making 99% of what you found worthless compared to something you could easily buy.
Sometimes people make assumptions that are really dumb in hindsight!
Here's another simple QoL fix: put your current rep points (not level, but points into the level) on the symbol at the start of the point bar. Holy shit, how tough would that have been to code?
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
This is almost as bad as Blizzard thinking nobody would use the Auction House much in D3.
The problem with the idea of players buying better gear and not focusing on the RNG drops is that, for like 2-ish years of D1's 3 year lifetime that was simply not an option. Vendor gear was not better than god-roll guns. It was not even as good as god-roll guns. I would wager that if the best guns were available from vendors all along then yeah, people wouldn't have paid as much attention to RNG gun stats.
I mean, that's what makes it dumb thing to hope for on their part. Blizzard didn't realize that the Auction House would almost immediately be filled with the top 1% or whatever of items, making 99% of what you found worthless compared to something you could easily buy.
Sometimes people make assumptions that are really dumb in hindsight!
Not even just that. The totally random drop system at launch gave you a ton of things that would be good on another class you weren't playing or something that was a duplicate of what you had and you didn't exactly have a lot of use for those beyond converting them to currency.
Melee needs to be a 2-hit kill, regardless of Resilience. It is absolutely absurd that you can melee someone twice and they'll have a sliver of health. If you can get close enough to melee twice without dying? Fuck em, THEY should be dead.
Also, Tone Patrol is my new jam.
Le problem is that this messes up some of the new perk systems: the power of Juggernaut Strikers, Protector Sentinals, Warrior Staff Supervisors and Titans with Synthoceps (and possibly Sunbreaker punchy bois) is that they can in particular circumstances 2 hit melee.
Whether or not it would be better, it is going to be a major, major rebalance if it were to be reimplemented.
I completely disagree. Melee is underpowered, full stop, regardless of perks.
Year 1, no. The vendor weapons only changed when they got replaced by the next DLC's weapons.
Think Taken King had some re-rolls, but I'm not 100% on that. Might've only happened when RoI came around. Definitely remember the original Hung Jury god roll got replaced with something less spectacular at some point.
IIRC the Y2/Y3 weapon rolls changing started in the taken spring.
I was not expecting this video to get salty so quickly!
Is this guy supposed to be someone important? It was really hard to get through that whole video with him constantly being objectively wrong to the point of I am curious how much he actually played destiny 1 to remember the meta that incorrectly.
quick points:
-He says energy weapons were better because they were better and more varied and you could use whatever. In actuality a lot of content required either icebreaker or that precision refill sniper, or you wouldnt get to go to the raid/nightfall, and he talked about IB and gally like they weren't near required exotics. Gally only eventually became not required if you have the purple one that does the exact same thing.
-On the same point, energy ammo was much much more limited and you barely ever got to use it based on the shield they were using, or if it was the right power for that weeks nightfall.
-He says halo isnt a power fantasy(?), his evidence is that you weild a rocket launcher and a sniper rifle at the same time (?)
I'll take being able to use energy all the time while only switching to my primary when the range is wrong for my energy weapon.
DiannaoChong on
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SurfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
Slayerage (of The Legend Himself) posted a Destiny/D2 weapon analysis video:
[snip]
I was not expecting this video to get salty so quickly!
Is this guy supposed to be someone important? It was really hard to get through that whole video with him constantly being objectively wrong to the point of I am curious how much he actually played destiny 1 to remember the meta that incorrectly.
quick points:
-He says energy weapons were better because they were better and more varied and you could use whatever. In actuality a lot of content required either icebreaker or that precision refill sniper, or you wouldnt get to go to the raid/nightfall, and he talked about IB and gally like they weren't near required exotics. Gally only eventually became not required if you have the purple one that does the exact same thing.
-On the same point, energy ammo was much much more limited and you barely ever got to use it based on the shield they were using, or if it was the right power for that weeks nightfall. -He says halo isnt a power fantasy(?), his evidence is that you weild a rocket launcher and a sniper rifle at the same time (?)
I'll take being able to use energy all the time while only switching to my primary when the range is wrong for my energy weapon.
Not that I don't disagree with him in whatever limited way I can having not played D1, but he says Halo isn't a power fantasy and despite that you can still have both a sniper rifle and a rocket launcher.
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
This is almost as bad as Blizzard thinking nobody would use the Auction House much in D3.
The problem with the idea of players buying better gear and not focusing on the RNG drops is that, for like 2-ish years of D1's 3 year lifetime that was simply not an option. Vendor gear was not better than god-roll guns. It was not even as good as god-roll guns. I would wager that if the best guns were available from vendors all along then yeah, people wouldn't have paid as much attention to RNG gun stats.
I mean, that's what makes it dumb thing to hope for on their part. Blizzard didn't realize that the Auction House would almost immediately be filled with the top 1% or whatever of items, making 99% of what you found worthless compared to something you could easily buy.
Sometimes people make assumptions that are really dumb in hindsight!
The Diablo 3 AH issue is I think really a good example of a lot of what I think it going on with Destiny 2's incentive systems. The basic idea of the AH was that people were fucking selling their shit to other players anyway. So Blizzard figured, let's just bring that in house where it's safer and people don't have to expose themselves to hacks and scams and other bullshit. It's a solid idea.
It just turns out what they didn't anticipate was that the friction involved in the trading system in Diablo 2, the annoyance of actually going and trading shit, was keeping the tons of issues that bringing trading into the game caused. The minute it was easy, everyone did it and the minute everyone did it the entire loot economy of the game imploded.
I think Destiny 2 has a lot of issues like this where they had good intentions about how to solve issues from the first game and, whoops, it turns out the unintended consequences of those solutions are a big problem on all their own.
Melee needs to be a 2-hit kill, regardless of Resilience. It is absolutely absurd that you can melee someone twice and they'll have a sliver of health. If you can get close enough to melee twice without dying? Fuck em, THEY should be dead.
Also, Tone Patrol is my new jam.
Le problem is that this messes up some of the new perk systems: the power of Juggernaut Strikers, Protector Sentinals, Warrior Staff Supervisors and Titans with Synthoceps (and possibly Sunbreaker punchy bois) is that they can in particular circumstances 2 hit melee.
Whether or not it would be better, it is going to be a major, major rebalance if it were to be reimplemented.
I completely disagree. Melee is underpowered, full stop, regardless of perks.
I think it's really obvious with things like the Titan shoulder-charge. It's a big setup move and yet the damage is so low it's suicidal. You will hit them and not even pop their shields and then they will gun you down before you come out of the animation backswing and have your gun prepped to finish them off.
There's a definite need for some adjusting on several melee abilities at the very least.
My theory is that loot based games are prone to community angst because at some level the most dedicated players know they are being manipulated
Also bungie is hella bad at PR
Interesting theory, I will meditate upon it
I don’t know if Bungie are particularly bad at PR, I don’t think they are good and the effects are certainly not what they want. But I am forced to wonder if there is any satisfaction condition within their reach due to the complexities of the game/development/internal shitshows, the breadth of the community, expectations around how fans are pandered to, general internet insanities etc.
Bungie are really bad at PR imo. Look, you can't make any online gaming community completely satisfied, no. But you can do a hell of a lot better job then they do. Their communication sucks. Not just the lack of it but the complete crappiness of it when they do communicate.
Like, I think Blizzard if nothing else demonstrates much better skill at this with several of their games. It's not so much about meeting community expectations or doing what they ask as it is being able to manage the community reaction properly.
There is an art to saying "We heard your complaints and we are totally looking into them" without actually promising anything that Bungie seems utterly oblivious too, as an example.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
They did not. Until ROI they changed with major content updates. From memory, Vanilla, TDB, HoW, TTK, the update that brought us The Blighted Chalice, RoI then the change that had the vendor rolls change on the reg
Oh wow I'd vaguely heard about the loot cave but not that it was actually not a better source of loot. That's hilarious.
Another fun fact:
Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.
This is almost as bad as Blizzard thinking nobody would use the Auction House much in D3.
The problem with the idea of players buying better gear and not focusing on the RNG drops is that, for like 2-ish years of D1's 3 year lifetime that was simply not an option. Vendor gear was not better than god-roll guns. It was not even as good as god-roll guns. I would wager that if the best guns were available from vendors all along then yeah, people wouldn't have paid as much attention to RNG gun stats.
I mean, that's what makes it dumb thing to hope for on their part. Blizzard didn't realize that the Auction House would almost immediately be filled with the top 1% or whatever of items, making 99% of what you found worthless compared to something you could easily buy.
Sometimes people make assumptions that are really dumb in hindsight!
The Diablo 3 AH issue is I think really a good example of a lot of what I think it going on with Destiny 2's incentive systems. The basic idea of the AH was that people were fucking selling their shit to other players anyway. So Blizzard figured, let's just bring that in house where it's safer and people don't have to expose themselves to hacks and scams and other bullshit. It's a solid idea.
It just turns out what they didn't anticipate was that the friction involved in the trading system in Diablo 2, the annoyance of actually going and trading shit, was keeping the tons of issues that bringing trading into the game caused. The minute it was easy, everyone did it and the minute everyone did it the entire loot economy of the game imploded.
I think Destiny 2 has a lot of issues like this where they had good intentions about how to solve issues from the first game and, whoops, it turns out the unintended consequences of those solutions are a big problem on all their own.
I️ think what’s so crazy about all of this is is that you’re absolutely right, but the unintended consequences bungie is running into are partly due to them making things hidden and scuzzy when they know they have an incredibly detail oreiented section of the fan base that will analyze things until they figure it out. And while that’s not a majority of players it is a loud contingent of them, and it will get reported on to the other ones who don’t care to look. The diablo auction house makes sense because it requires you to extrapolate player behavior in a way that hasn’t really happened yet. Destiny 2 introduces problems that anyone who knows what nerds do could anticipate.
It’s like they took out an m16 and wondered how many times they could shoot their own foot.
Melee needs to be a 2-hit kill, regardless of Resilience. It is absolutely absurd that you can melee someone twice and they'll have a sliver of health. If you can get close enough to melee twice without dying? Fuck em, THEY should be dead.
Also, Tone Patrol is my new jam.
Le problem is that this messes up some of the new perk systems: the power of Juggernaut Strikers, Protector Sentinals, Warrior Staff Supervisors and Titans with Synthoceps (and possibly Sunbreaker punchy bois) is that they can in particular circumstances 2 hit melee.
Whether or not it would be better, it is going to be a major, major rebalance if it were to be reimplemented.
I completely disagree. Melee is underpowered, full stop, regardless of perks.
I don’t understand. I didn’t say melee was (or, was not) underpowered. My contention is that it’s current power level is part of the interclass balance and there would need to be a major, major rebalance to increase its power to being able to two-punch by default, which has nothing to do with the its relative power.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
My theory is that loot based games are prone to community angst because at some level the most dedicated players know they are being manipulated
Also bungie is hella bad at PR
Interesting theory, I will meditate upon it
I don’t know if Bungie are particularly bad at PR, I don’t think they are good and the effects are certainly not what they want. But I am forced to wonder if there is any satisfaction condition within their reach due to the complexities of the game/development/internal shitshows, the breadth of the community, expectations around how fans are pandered to, general internet insanities etc.
Bungie are really bad at PR imo. Look, you can't make any online gaming community completely satisfied, no. But you can do a hell of a lot better job then they do. Their communication sucks. Not just the lack of it but the complete crappiness of it when they do communicate.
Like, I think Blizzard if nothing else demonstrates much better skill at this with several of their games. It's not so much about meeting community expectations or doing what they ask as it is being able to manage the community reaction properly.
There is an art to saying "We heard your complaints and we are totally looking into them" without actually promising anything that Bungie seems utterly oblivious too, as an example.
My scepticism is that "we have heard your complaints and are looking into them" no matter how artful, isn’t going to cut a lot of ice and may in fact... make more ice. Pour more ice on the fire. Be as useful as a one armed carpenter?
Blizzard are, to my outsider perspective, in a much better place in terms of infrastructure, General game state and corporate structure than Bungie. Avoiding lying and avoiding saying "everything is always on fire in here" and still saying something interesting is probably a losers gambit anyway, and the ability to communicate to the player base that there are reasons that the things that they perceive to be a high priority are in fact not is going to be a challenge.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
I was not expecting this video to get salty so quickly!
Is this guy supposed to be someone important? It was really hard to get through that whole video with him constantly being objectively wrong to the point of I am curious how much he actually played destiny 1 to remember the meta that incorrectly.
quick points:
-He says energy weapons were better because they were better and more varied and you could use whatever. In actuality a lot of content required either icebreaker or that precision refill sniper, or you wouldnt get to go to the raid/nightfall, and he talked about IB and gally like they weren't near required exotics. Gally only eventually became not required if you have the purple one that does the exact same thing.
-On the same point, energy ammo was much much more limited and you barely ever got to use it based on the shield they were using, or if it was the right power for that weeks nightfall.
-He says halo isnt a power fantasy(?), his evidence is that you weild a rocket launcher and a sniper rifle at the same time (?)
I'll take being able to use energy all the time while only switching to my primary when the range is wrong for my energy weapon.
I think it is supposed to be... only semi serious?
Slayerage is one of the main members of The Legend Himself, who tend to be world record holders for raids and do crazy pve shenanigans.
However, I agree that the substance is a load of distorted bollocks, which just goes to support my original thesis that people who are big names in the community are no more reliable a barometer of anything mechanical than anyone else and are just as prone to be taken in by motivated reasoning etc.
My theory is that loot based games are prone to community angst because at some level the most dedicated players know they are being manipulated
Also bungie is hella bad at PR
Interesting theory, I will meditate upon it
I don’t know if Bungie are particularly bad at PR, I don’t think they are good and the effects are certainly not what they want. But I am forced to wonder if there is any satisfaction condition within their reach due to the complexities of the game/development/internal shitshows, the breadth of the community, expectations around how fans are pandered to, general internet insanities etc.
Bungie is absolutely bad at PR... they have near zero communication on relevant problems the playerbase has with their game, and what communication they have is like talking to my mother in law when she's not wearing her hearing aids. I'm talking to her about the hole that needs fixing in the roof and she's, without hearing a word I've said, telling me about a pie she's bringing over next week.
All the issues being raised by players on every available forum and venue possible that are continually going unaddressed unless a PC game mag posts an article, and their livestreams are vapidly talking about improved rewards with footage of two tokens and a blue.
One more time though... players are complaining about the ingame rewards/feedback/progression loop and the amazing super hyped footage they have is literally two of the thing we don't want instead of one of those things.
The fortnite devs made an adjustment that made AR's massively overpowered. They had it fixed in two days after players made them aware via reddit and their internal forums.
Now I get that fortnite is nothing like the scale of Destiny, but come on.
E - For context, in todays age of twitter/social media/dev feedback, constructive feedback with your playerbase is maybe the best PR you can muster.
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They are pretty heavily hinting at it being in the next update as per their twitch con stream.
Bungie knew about the loot cave prior to release and didn’t care because it was less efficient than simply playing the game. They eventually fixed it because it generated more player reports than any thing else in the game's history up to 2015. People got mad and reported people for using the loot cave, others went in and took it upon themselves to sit in the cave to prevent others from using it, which in turn produced a bunch of reports. I think they have come to the conclusion that quick farming methods are ultimately not good for the game or player satisfaction, and thus try and squash them all, but their initial policy, at least was to assess whether it distorted the loot economy.
A fucking big yappy dog that won't get the fuck out of the way when you are aiming down the back of it's neck, yeah.
But here's something they could have found in basic testing: A guy sells maps for treasure chests. If a player goes from one chest to the next closest chest at normal speed, does that trigger the "anti-farm" contingency? Are we, possibly idiots for doing this?
Also, Tone Patrol is my new jam.
I would point out that in keeping with the "this is in keeping with Bungie’s approach” argument, Bungie have often stated that they want to incentivise people trying all sorts of things. But this doesn’t obviously incentivise anything, as it is far too obfuscated. If anything, it seems like it keeps the economies of reward stable without impacting the player experience by saying "public event farming debuff in effect" or having some system that prevents you from being able to chain public events.
I think that ideally the numbers shown ought be reflective of the reality the xp earned, but I am also surprised that it matters to anyone. None of my gameplay decisions revolve around the XP awarded other than when I am leveling a character, that this might be different for others is quite strange to me.
I am ALSO curious as to whether a similar system was in effect in D1
First match: 3.25
Second match: 0.18 against a four stack with 2 kills and FOUR teammates dropping out before mercy rule was applied.
Ok.
Le problem is that this messes up some of the new perk systems: the power of Juggernaut Strikers, Protector Sentinals, Warrior Staff Supervisors and Titans with Synthoceps (and possibly Sunbreaker punchy bois) is that they can in particular circumstances 2 hit melee.
Whether or not it would be better, it is going to be a major, major rebalance if it were to be reimplemented.
Also bungie is hella bad at PR
https://medium.com/@alascii
Interesting theory, I will meditate upon it
I don’t know if Bungie are particularly bad at PR, I don’t think they are good and the effects are certainly not what they want. But I am forced to wonder if there is any satisfaction condition within their reach due to the complexities of the game/development/internal shitshows, the breadth of the community, expectations around how fans are pandered to, general internet insanities etc.
it's a good dog shrike
Another fun fact: https://kotaku.com/bungie-explains-why-they-really-killed-destinys-loot-ca-1689513172
This is almost as bad as Blizzard thinking nobody would use the Auction House much in D3.
I don’t think it takes a CHARISMA WIZARD to realize that releasing a statement about experience problems then surreptitiously doubling the level quota was going to result in a shitstorm, actual effect on gameplay be damned
https://medium.com/@alascii
The problem with the idea of players buying better gear and not focusing on the RNG drops is that, for like 2-ish years of D1's 3 year lifetime that was simply not an option. Vendor gear was not better than god-roll guns. It was not even as good as god-roll guns. I would wager that if the best guns were available from vendors all along then yeah, people wouldn't have paid as much attention to RNG gun stats.
Hahahahaha... look at all that tower time.
Plus you could only earn 50 marks a week, for crucible and vanguard vendors. Which was SLOW AF
It changed, but not very often.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
https://medium.com/@alascii
Year 1, no. The vendor weapons only changed when they got replaced by the next DLC's weapons.
Think Taken King had some re-rolls, but I'm not 100% on that. Might've only happened when RoI came around. Definitely remember the original Hung Jury god roll got replaced with something less spectacular at some point.
...too bad they're fucking Phoenix Strikes and not Iron Truage.
Sometimes people make assumptions that are really dumb in hindsight!
You're not alone! Presently sitting at 4/5 for both my Warlock and Titan.
Not even just that. The totally random drop system at launch gave you a ton of things that would be good on another class you weren't playing or something that was a duplicate of what you had and you didn't exactly have a lot of use for those beyond converting them to currency.
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I completely disagree. Melee is underpowered, full stop, regardless of perks.
Is this guy supposed to be someone important? It was really hard to get through that whole video with him constantly being objectively wrong to the point of I am curious how much he actually played destiny 1 to remember the meta that incorrectly.
quick points:
-He says energy weapons were better because they were better and more varied and you could use whatever. In actuality a lot of content required either icebreaker or that precision refill sniper, or you wouldnt get to go to the raid/nightfall, and he talked about IB and gally like they weren't near required exotics. Gally only eventually became not required if you have the purple one that does the exact same thing.
-On the same point, energy ammo was much much more limited and you barely ever got to use it based on the shield they were using, or if it was the right power for that weeks nightfall.
-He says halo isnt a power fantasy(?), his evidence is that you weild a rocket launcher and a sniper rifle at the same time (?)
I'll take being able to use energy all the time while only switching to my primary when the range is wrong for my energy weapon.
Of course, Halo is absolutely a power fantasy.
The Diablo 3 AH issue is I think really a good example of a lot of what I think it going on with Destiny 2's incentive systems. The basic idea of the AH was that people were fucking selling their shit to other players anyway. So Blizzard figured, let's just bring that in house where it's safer and people don't have to expose themselves to hacks and scams and other bullshit. It's a solid idea.
It just turns out what they didn't anticipate was that the friction involved in the trading system in Diablo 2, the annoyance of actually going and trading shit, was keeping the tons of issues that bringing trading into the game caused. The minute it was easy, everyone did it and the minute everyone did it the entire loot economy of the game imploded.
I think Destiny 2 has a lot of issues like this where they had good intentions about how to solve issues from the first game and, whoops, it turns out the unintended consequences of those solutions are a big problem on all their own.
I think it's really obvious with things like the Titan shoulder-charge. It's a big setup move and yet the damage is so low it's suicidal. You will hit them and not even pop their shields and then they will gun you down before you come out of the animation backswing and have your gun prepped to finish them off.
There's a definite need for some adjusting on several melee abilities at the very least.
Bungie are really bad at PR imo. Look, you can't make any online gaming community completely satisfied, no. But you can do a hell of a lot better job then they do. Their communication sucks. Not just the lack of it but the complete crappiness of it when they do communicate.
Like, I think Blizzard if nothing else demonstrates much better skill at this with several of their games. It's not so much about meeting community expectations or doing what they ask as it is being able to manage the community reaction properly.
There is an art to saying "We heard your complaints and we are totally looking into them" without actually promising anything that Bungie seems utterly oblivious too, as an example.
They did not. Until ROI they changed with major content updates. From memory, Vanilla, TDB, HoW, TTK, the update that brought us The Blighted Chalice, RoI then the change that had the vendor rolls change on the reg
I️ think what’s so crazy about all of this is is that you’re absolutely right, but the unintended consequences bungie is running into are partly due to them making things hidden and scuzzy when they know they have an incredibly detail oreiented section of the fan base that will analyze things until they figure it out. And while that’s not a majority of players it is a loud contingent of them, and it will get reported on to the other ones who don’t care to look. The diablo auction house makes sense because it requires you to extrapolate player behavior in a way that hasn’t really happened yet. Destiny 2 introduces problems that anyone who knows what nerds do could anticipate.
It’s like they took out an m16 and wondered how many times they could shoot their own foot.
My scepticism is that "we have heard your complaints and are looking into them" no matter how artful, isn’t going to cut a lot of ice and may in fact... make more ice. Pour more ice on the fire. Be as useful as a one armed carpenter?
Blizzard are, to my outsider perspective, in a much better place in terms of infrastructure, General game state and corporate structure than Bungie. Avoiding lying and avoiding saying "everything is always on fire in here" and still saying something interesting is probably a losers gambit anyway, and the ability to communicate to the player base that there are reasons that the things that they perceive to be a high priority are in fact not is going to be a challenge.
I think it is supposed to be... only semi serious?
Slayerage is one of the main members of The Legend Himself, who tend to be world record holders for raids and do crazy pve shenanigans.
However, I agree that the substance is a load of distorted bollocks, which just goes to support my original thesis that people who are big names in the community are no more reliable a barometer of anything mechanical than anyone else and are just as prone to be taken in by motivated reasoning etc.
Bungie is absolutely bad at PR... they have near zero communication on relevant problems the playerbase has with their game, and what communication they have is like talking to my mother in law when she's not wearing her hearing aids. I'm talking to her about the hole that needs fixing in the roof and she's, without hearing a word I've said, telling me about a pie she's bringing over next week.
All the issues being raised by players on every available forum and venue possible that are continually going unaddressed unless a PC game mag posts an article, and their livestreams are vapidly talking about improved rewards with footage of two tokens and a blue.
One more time though... players are complaining about the ingame rewards/feedback/progression loop and the amazing super hyped footage they have is literally two of the thing we don't want instead of one of those things.
The fortnite devs made an adjustment that made AR's massively overpowered. They had it fixed in two days after players made them aware via reddit and their internal forums.
Now I get that fortnite is nothing like the scale of Destiny, but come on.
E - For context, in todays age of twitter/social media/dev feedback, constructive feedback with your playerbase is maybe the best PR you can muster.
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