Harry are you calling Mexican-Americans (and others who support the issues they hold onto strongly) a "fringe" branch of voters?
I’m not suggesting all Mexican American voters are doing this, they’re a subgroup From the Far Left who hate the Dems as much as the Republicans. Its not just Mexican Americans who have an identical opinion with you on this topic. It’s disingenuous to suggest that people with your opinion on this matter are the only ones who Care about this issue or who want to save the Dreamers .
What the heck is "political reality" and why is it being regarded as some absolute?
The fact is the GOP control congress and the presidency, which is a big reason why this is occurring in the first place. Or do you disagree with this analysis?
Another fact is that it’s impossible to negotiate with the current GOP. Even holding the country hostage via budget failed to budge the opposition with the Dreamers.
Do you have alternative solutions to save the Dreamers which will guarantee a win? I’m all ears if you do, seriously.
We're not bemoaning the lack of results, we're bemoaning the lack of any kind of moral stand or outrage on the part of Democratic leadership.
The "far left" scapegoating is super dumb. Just complain abot people who don't toe the party line.
Sure you are, even when the have made great risks for the Dreamers like holding the budget hostage did absolutely nothing to gain any credit from you. Moral standing which will change nothing in getting results, and won’t guarantee any loyalty in the long run. Which they’ve done in the past, getting nothing in return from these voters.
As far as I can tell it’s only been the Far Left screwing the Dems on this, because it’s not like the Dems haven’t tried giving them what they want. And yes, being loyal to the party is important for solving issues like this, it’s a big reason why the DACAs are in jeopardy since the Dems don’t gave the political might to stop this at the moment. Voting has consquences, this is one of them. No amount of yelling is going to change that fact.
We're not bemoaning the lack of results, we're bemoaning the lack of any kind of moral stand or outrage on the part of Democratic leadership.
The "far left" scapegoating is super dumb. Just complain abot people who don't toe the party line.
Sure you are, even when the have made great risks for the Dreamers like holding the budget hostage did absolutely nothing to gain any credit from you. Moral standing which will change nothing in getting results, and won’t guarantee any loyalty in the long run. Which they’ve done in the past, getting nothing in return from these voters.
As far as I can tell it’s only been the Far Left screwing the Dems on this, because it’s not like the Dems haven’t tried giving them what they want. And yes, being loyal to the party is important for solving issues like this, it’s a big reason why the DACAs are in jeopardy since the Dems don’t gave the political might to stop this at the moment. Voting has consquences, this is one of them. No amount of yelling is going to change that fact.
They actually had my enthusiastic support on the issue until they gave up the shutdown almost immediately in exchange for what we all knew was nothing.
But if you don't understand why moral standing is relevant to getting results in politics then of course you're going to need a scapegoat. Why a party should expect loyalty when it cuts and runs from even a rhetorical fight they're on the popular side of with the faintest excuse is beyond me.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
What the heck is "political reality" and why is it being regarded as some absolute?
49 Dem senators no House majority and a hostile President. It's regarded as absolute because until November that isn't changing.
Okay so "political reality" means "actually passing legislation."
So people should only vote on something if they're in the position to win it?
It’s arguable, and arguable on a vote by vote basis, whether or not taking a symbolic vote is good or bad politically.
More importantly, we know that the party, the actual voters, are split on whether threatening a shutdown to even force a symbolic vote is a good idea. That seems like a losing proposition for Dems in Congress to me.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
What the heck is "political reality" and why is it being regarded as some absolute?
49 Dem senators no House majority and a hostile President. It's regarded as absolute because until November that isn't changing.
Okay so "political reality" means "actually passing legislation."
So people should only vote on something if they're in the position to win it?
It’s arguable, and arguable on a vote by vote basis, whether or not taking a symbolic vote is good or bad politically.
More importantly, we know that the party, the actual voters, are split on whether threatening a shutdown to even force a symbolic vote is a good idea. That seems like a losing proposition for Dems in Congress to me.
If this is the actual Democratic Party code of operations they sicken me and I'm not sure I should be supporting them until they change for the better. Screwing people over because of some mystical nonsense political "game" rules is something we all need to put into the past.
"Aggressively support DACA" isn't even the "Far Left" position ffs. It's basic liberalism and should be a prerequisite for any party funding but here we are with leadership who is happy it's off their plate
The problem I guess is that somehow, some way, the Democrats are responsible for the fact that the Republicans would rather burn the country down than protect DACA or the Dreamers.
The problem I guess is that somehow, some way, the Democrats are responsible for the fact that the Republicans would rather burn the country down than protect DACA or the Dreamers.
Not in the least bit. They're responsible for their poor rhetoric, how that rhetoric is rarely backed up by action when they are capable of it, and how that has played a direct part in losing power so badly.
blaming the democrats because the pubs are fuck awful just seems counter productive.
I get disliking the fact they won't straight nuke the country over the issue, and hell, maybe they should just burn the whole thing down, but that seems like it would fuck way more people, and start a really dark time for most of the world.
They took a stand, and the pubs promptly reminded them who's actually in charge right now. They can either burn it all or play ball till they get control back, and can actually get shit done. They ain't never gunna get anything done if everyone keeps fuckin abandoning them and just letting the fuck awful folks run everything. That's not going to fix anyone's problems either.
I get frustration, but if you just throw up your hands and also don't vote for them then the pubs gonna keep on winning and eventually they are just going to take all these folks one way or another.
Sorry theres nothing better as a choice.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The problem I guess is that somehow, some way, the Democrats are responsible for the fact that the Republicans would rather burn the country down than protect DACA or the Dreamers.
It's not about responsibility in that sense. Republicans are responsible for screwing over immigrants. It should be a slam-dunk. Even if Democrats mount a losing fight on this issue, they at least people know "we have it on paper that we're trying to do the right thing, all we need is more seats in the country." And people would be motivated to give them those seats.
But since the Democrats are willing to say "oh well" to immigrants in such a blase way, they're essentially complicit with the Republicans' actions. They don't care. And when people see their elected officials not caring they say "oh, well fuck voting and the government." And then everyone gets all surprised about why elections go the way they do.
You can't just win on a message of "Look how much those other guys want to fuck things up!" Because things are already fucked up. We want to hear how the already-broken things will get fixed too. Otherwise you maintain a system of oppression, wealth-disparity, and ultimately white supremacy.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
"We won't fight for you unless we know we are going to win" is not strong messaging
And the fact is once the Republicans start deportations, voting Democrat will not save anyone because they're already gone. Democrats have to fight if they want people to believe that voting for them makes a difference
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I mean imagine hearing, "The immigration system is dated and broken, it needs to be modernized and people need protection," and your first response being, "Man, the fringe left." That doing right by people is considered an outlandish idea.
Republicans suck on immigration because they want to regress it even further. But the Democrats suck too because they're fine with things remaining as they are.
"We won't fight for you unless we know we are going to win" is not strong messaging
And the fact is once the Republicans start deportations, voting Democrat will not save anyone because they're already gone. Democrats have to fight if they want people to believe that voting for them makes a difference
Seriously, wtf are they supposed to do now instead? What power do they actually have to leverage here?
"We won't fight for you unless we know we are going to win" is not strong messaging
And the fact is once the Republicans start deportations, voting Democrat will not save anyone because they're already gone. Democrats have to fight if they want people to believe that voting for them makes a difference
Seriously, wtf are they supposed to do now instead? What power do they actually have to leverage here?
Block everything they can, hold up Congress with endless speeches. Hold rallies in front of Congress. File endless demands for information from ICE and relevant organizations. Threaten legal proceedings for ICE abuses. Get in front of every mic and camera and talk show they can. Lay down in front of a fucking bus.
I mean really.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I mean, the last time the Dems had a big win, the voters decided "eh", stayed home and Republicans drew the maps. So I can kind of understand why they don't want to fight after they've lost once on the exact same issue with the exact same congress
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
"We won't fight for you unless we know we are going to win" is not strong messaging
And the fact is once the Republicans start deportations, voting Democrat will not save anyone because they're already gone. Democrats have to fight if they want people to believe that voting for them makes a difference
Seriously, wtf are they supposed to do now instead? What power do they actually have to leverage here?
Block everything they can, hold up Congress with endless speeches. Hold rallies in front of Congress. File endless demands for information from ICE and relevant organizations. Threaten legal proceedings for ICE abuses. Get in front of every mic and camera and talk show they can. Lay down in front of a fucking bus.
I mean really.
Join the protests that form, speak out more, start campaigning on this issue.
Anyone arguing about this in the vacuum of "right now with this Congressional makeup" is doing so in an effort to make the Democrats the powerless victims as opposed to the immigrants in danger of being deported.
blaming the democrats because the pubs are fuck awful just seems counter productive.
I get disliking the fact they won't straight nuke the country over the issue, and hell, maybe they should just burn the whole thing down, but that seems like it would fuck way more people, and start a really dark time for most of the world.
They took a stand, and the pubs promptly reminded them who's actually in charge right now. They can either burn it all or play ball till they get control back, and can actually get shit done.
They took a stand for all of a weekend
This issue has been known since September. It had a deadline in March. The Democrats just kicked thd can until they got lucky with a court order. Why would anyone looking at the actions taken believe that DACA is a legislative ir even moral priority for the Democratic party?
Why would you vote for people who won't stand up for you?
To be very clear, I agree eith you guys. I just understand why they aren't doing it
They're not doing it because being upper class is moral poison.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I don't know how else to phrase it.
We know the Democrats can't pass legislation by vote right now. That's not the point. The point is them proving they care about an issue by voting anyway. It doesn't have to come to the government shutdown and such. Republicans are the obvious villain. Democrats aren't the hero just because they aren't Republicans. If they take no position, they aren't heroes.
I'm starting to wonder if the Democrats are worried that a vote on the matter would expose some of their members as voting in line with the Republicans. It's been happening a shocking amount this congress and turning people off.
This is purely how I think the Democrats think about politics, not an endorsement of the view, because at some point you have to deliver for all of your constituents:
1) Hispanics in general, and Mexican-Americans in particular are poorly distributed to affect electoral outcomes. They swing elections to Democrats for sure in exactly two states: Nevada and New Mexico. Possibly Virginia. Definitely if they ever hope to win Arizona and Texas. But at the moment, it's not a great distribution for the places you need to win the presidency and where we think of as being competitive House/Senate races.
2) On the other hand, racist white people who will vote for Democrats if they are not primed to ever think about race are fantastically distributed to win elections. There are a ton of them in populous swing states, especially in the upper Midwest.
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Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I want to win in November, and burning down the system in March is not the way to do that.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
"We won't fight for you unless we know we are going to win" is not strong messaging
And the fact is once the Republicans start deportations, voting Democrat will not save anyone because they're already gone. Democrats have to fight if they want people to believe that voting for them makes a difference
Seriously, wtf are they supposed to do now instead? What power do they actually have to leverage here?
The same they've had since September - shut down the government
Prove that those 800 thousand lives are worth the discomfort
Force the Republicans to be the ones to either nuke the filibuster or bargain in good faith
Don't just sit on your hands because the choices are hard
As you said: "Sorry theres nothing better as a choice"
If voters have to grin and bear it, our politicians should do the same
blaming the democrats because the pubs are fuck awful just seems counter productive.
I get disliking the fact they won't straight nuke the country over the issue, and hell, maybe they should just burn the whole thing down, but that seems like it would fuck way more people, and start a really dark time for most of the world.
They took a stand, and the pubs promptly reminded them who's actually in charge right now. They can either burn it all or play ball till they get control back, and can actually get shit done.
They took a stand for all of a weekend
This issue has been known since September. It had a deadline in March. The Democrats just kicked thd can until they got lucky with a court order. Why would anyone looking at the actions taken believe that DACA is a legislative ir even moral priority for the Democratic party?
Why would you vote for people who won't stand up for you?
Because the other guy wants to outright kill me and i understand the actual political landscape in the country.
Like I said sorry there aren't better options.
Like I'm of the mood they should just fuckin burn it down, but I also understand my sentiments are extreme
I want to win in November, and burning down the system in March is not the way to do that.
"Burning down the system" doesn't strike me as a particularly accurate assessment of the argument, but I don't see how aggressively supporting dreamers is a liability with the Dem base. Certainly not how it's more of a liability than their current choices.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
We know the Democrats can't pass legislation by vote right now. That's not the point. The point is them proving they care about an issue by voting anyway. It doesn't have to come to the government shutdown and such. Republicans are the obvious villain. Democrats aren't the hero just because they aren't Republicans. If they take no position, they aren't heroes.
I'm starting to wonder if the Democrats are worried that a vote on the matter would expose some of their members as voting in line with the Republicans. It's been happening a shocking amount this congress and turning people off.
How do they get another vote without threatening a shutdown?
We know the Democrats can't pass legislation by vote right now. That's not the point. The point is them proving they care about an issue by voting anyway. It doesn't have to come to the government shutdown and such. Republicans are the obvious villain. Democrats aren't the hero just because they aren't Republicans. If they take no position, they aren't heroes.
I'm starting to wonder if the Democrats are worried that a vote on the matter would expose some of their members as voting in line with the Republicans. It's been happening a shocking amount this congress and turning people off.
Re last paragraph: there were votes on several proposals already. (Including Trump's turbo racist idea). That should provide enough leverage I'd think?
What kicked this discussion off was them not tying a vote or passage here to the budget. I.e. to a shutdown. So I'm slightly confused as to what the problem is if it doesn't have to cone to a shutdown, because that's all they've given up.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
What the heck is "political reality" and why is it being regarded as some absolute?
49 Dem senators no House majority and a hostile President. It's regarded as absolute because until November that isn't changing.
Okay so "political reality" means "actually passing legislation."
So people should only vote on something if they're in the position to win it?
It’s arguable, and arguable on a vote by vote basis, whether or not taking a symbolic vote is good or bad politically.
More importantly, we know that the party, the actual voters, are split on whether threatening a shutdown to even force a symbolic vote is a good idea. That seems like a losing proposition for Dems in Congress to me.
If this is the actual Democratic Party code of operations they sicken me and I'm not sure I should be supporting them until they change for the better. Screwing people over because of some mystical nonsense political "game" rules is something we all need to put into the past.
How are they screwing people over?
The votes happened dude. Despite all the yelling about the strategy and the mistakes they did or did not make depending on how you felt, the votes went to the floor.
And they failed. The Democrats don't have the votes for it because of the November 2016 elections. And that's basically it.
They can't screw anyone over here, they don't have the power.
I want to win in November, and burning down the system in March is not the way to do that.
Well then 800k people burn while you wait for November
I understand how you can arrive at that conclusion, but I personally won't support that stance
No one's going anywhere for the moment. And more importantly there has to be a way to fix it now. The President is a racist who wants massive cuts to legal immigration for anything to happen. At best.
So what do you expect the Dems could do to stop it right now?
What the heck is "political reality" and why is it being regarded as some absolute?
49 Dem senators no House majority and a hostile President. It's regarded as absolute because until November that isn't changing.
Okay so "political reality" means "actually passing legislation."
So people should only vote on something if they're in the position to win it?
It’s arguable, and arguable on a vote by vote basis, whether or not taking a symbolic vote is good or bad politically.
More importantly, we know that the party, the actual voters, are split on whether threatening a shutdown to even force a symbolic vote is a good idea. That seems like a losing proposition for Dems in Congress to me.
If this is the actual Democratic Party code of operations they sicken me and I'm not sure I should be supporting them until they change for the better. Screwing people over because of some mystical nonsense political "game" rules is something we all need to put into the past.
How are they screwing people over?
The votes happened dude. Despite all the yelling about the strategy and the mistakes they did or did not make depending on how you felt, the votes went to the floor.
And they failed. The Democrats don't have the votes for it because of the November 2016 elections. And that's basically it.
They can't screw anyone over here, they don't have the power.
Politics is more than the vote count on the floor. Especially when you're the minority.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
I want to win in November, and burning down the system in March is not the way to do that.
Well then 800k people burn while you wait for November
I understand how you can arrive at that conclusion, but I personally won't support that stance
No one's going anywhere for the moment. And more importantly there has to be a way to fix it now. The President is a racist who wants massive cuts to legal immigration for anything to happen. At best.
So what do you expect the Dems could do to stop it right now?
Refuse to sign off on the budget
Campaign about how the Republicans could've had their cake with reconciliation, but they wasted it on tax cuts for the rich, so they don't get to whine about working with Democrats
Campaign about saving 800k lives
Get out there and stand their ground and don't blink this time
What the heck is "political reality" and why is it being regarded as some absolute?
49 Dem senators no House majority and a hostile President. It's regarded as absolute because until November that isn't changing.
Okay so "political reality" means "actually passing legislation."
So people should only vote on something if they're in the position to win it?
It’s arguable, and arguable on a vote by vote basis, whether or not taking a symbolic vote is good or bad politically.
More importantly, we know that the party, the actual voters, are split on whether threatening a shutdown to even force a symbolic vote is a good idea. That seems like a losing proposition for Dems in Congress to me.
If this is the actual Democratic Party code of operations they sicken me and I'm not sure I should be supporting them until they change for the better. Screwing people over because of some mystical nonsense political "game" rules is something we all need to put into the past.
How are they screwing people over?
The votes happened dude. Despite all the yelling about the strategy and the mistakes they did or did not make depending on how you felt, the votes went to the floor.
And they failed. The Democrats don't have the votes for it because of the November 2016 elections. And that's basically it.
They can't screw anyone over here, they don't have the power.
Politics is more than the vote count on the floor. Especially when you're the minority.
Sure but if your complaint is that they need to message better that isn't "screwing people over".
Political messaging is about more then just vote counts. Actual policy is not. The only people actual effecting anyone here are Republicans. Democrats got their votes and they failed and that's literally it for what they can actually accomplish here related to people getting screwed over.
Like, I'm not sure you can emphasize this enough: the vote happened. That's what Democrats can force with enough leverage: a vote. They did. And the votes failed. They can yell and scream and take hostages and all that shit but all they can get for all that is another vote. And there is no reason to think the vote won't just fail again.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
We talk a lot about complicity among the Republicans and their allies, so why not apply it to Democrats when they declare they aren't fighting an issue anymore?
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I feel like your promotion negotiations should have included chair talks.
*edit I did not realize what thread I was in...*
I’m not suggesting all Mexican American voters are doing this, they’re a subgroup From the Far Left who hate the Dems as much as the Republicans. Its not just Mexican Americans who have an identical opinion with you on this topic. It’s disingenuous to suggest that people with your opinion on this matter are the only ones who Care about this issue or who want to save the Dreamers .
The fact is the GOP control congress and the presidency, which is a big reason why this is occurring in the first place. Or do you disagree with this analysis?
Another fact is that it’s impossible to negotiate with the current GOP. Even holding the country hostage via budget failed to budge the opposition with the Dreamers.
Do you have alternative solutions to save the Dreamers which will guarantee a win? I’m all ears if you do, seriously.
The "far left" scapegoating is super dumb. Just complain abot people who don't toe the party line.
So people should only vote on something if they're in the position to win it?
Sure you are, even when the have made great risks for the Dreamers like holding the budget hostage did absolutely nothing to gain any credit from you. Moral standing which will change nothing in getting results, and won’t guarantee any loyalty in the long run. Which they’ve done in the past, getting nothing in return from these voters.
As far as I can tell it’s only been the Far Left screwing the Dems on this, because it’s not like the Dems haven’t tried giving them what they want. And yes, being loyal to the party is important for solving issues like this, it’s a big reason why the DACAs are in jeopardy since the Dems don’t gave the political might to stop this at the moment. Voting has consquences, this is one of them. No amount of yelling is going to change that fact.
They actually had my enthusiastic support on the issue until they gave up the shutdown almost immediately in exchange for what we all knew was nothing.
But if you don't understand why moral standing is relevant to getting results in politics then of course you're going to need a scapegoat. Why a party should expect loyalty when it cuts and runs from even a rhetorical fight they're on the popular side of with the faintest excuse is beyond me.
It’s arguable, and arguable on a vote by vote basis, whether or not taking a symbolic vote is good or bad politically.
More importantly, we know that the party, the actual voters, are split on whether threatening a shutdown to even force a symbolic vote is a good idea. That seems like a losing proposition for Dems in Congress to me.
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Not in the least bit. They're responsible for their poor rhetoric, how that rhetoric is rarely backed up by action when they are capable of it, and how that has played a direct part in losing power so badly.
I get disliking the fact they won't straight nuke the country over the issue, and hell, maybe they should just burn the whole thing down, but that seems like it would fuck way more people, and start a really dark time for most of the world.
They took a stand, and the pubs promptly reminded them who's actually in charge right now. They can either burn it all or play ball till they get control back, and can actually get shit done. They ain't never gunna get anything done if everyone keeps fuckin abandoning them and just letting the fuck awful folks run everything. That's not going to fix anyone's problems either.
I get frustration, but if you just throw up your hands and also don't vote for them then the pubs gonna keep on winning and eventually they are just going to take all these folks one way or another.
Sorry theres nothing better as a choice.
But since the Democrats are willing to say "oh well" to immigrants in such a blase way, they're essentially complicit with the Republicans' actions. They don't care. And when people see their elected officials not caring they say "oh, well fuck voting and the government." And then everyone gets all surprised about why elections go the way they do.
You can't just win on a message of "Look how much those other guys want to fuck things up!" Because things are already fucked up. We want to hear how the already-broken things will get fixed too. Otherwise you maintain a system of oppression, wealth-disparity, and ultimately white supremacy.
And the fact is once the Republicans start deportations, voting Democrat will not save anyone because they're already gone. Democrats have to fight if they want people to believe that voting for them makes a difference
Republicans suck on immigration because they want to regress it even further. But the Democrats suck too because they're fine with things remaining as they are.
Seriously, wtf are they supposed to do now instead? What power do they actually have to leverage here?
Block everything they can, hold up Congress with endless speeches. Hold rallies in front of Congress. File endless demands for information from ICE and relevant organizations. Threaten legal proceedings for ICE abuses. Get in front of every mic and camera and talk show they can. Lay down in front of a fucking bus.
I mean really.
Anyone arguing about this in the vacuum of "right now with this Congressional makeup" is doing so in an effort to make the Democrats the powerless victims as opposed to the immigrants in danger of being deported.
They took a stand for all of a weekend
This issue has been known since September. It had a deadline in March. The Democrats just kicked thd can until they got lucky with a court order. Why would anyone looking at the actions taken believe that DACA is a legislative ir even moral priority for the Democratic party?
Why would you vote for people who won't stand up for you?
They're not doing it because being upper class is moral poison.
We know the Democrats can't pass legislation by vote right now. That's not the point. The point is them proving they care about an issue by voting anyway. It doesn't have to come to the government shutdown and such. Republicans are the obvious villain. Democrats aren't the hero just because they aren't Republicans. If they take no position, they aren't heroes.
I'm starting to wonder if the Democrats are worried that a vote on the matter would expose some of their members as voting in line with the Republicans. It's been happening a shocking amount this congress and turning people off.
1) Hispanics in general, and Mexican-Americans in particular are poorly distributed to affect electoral outcomes. They swing elections to Democrats for sure in exactly two states: Nevada and New Mexico. Possibly Virginia. Definitely if they ever hope to win Arizona and Texas. But at the moment, it's not a great distribution for the places you need to win the presidency and where we think of as being competitive House/Senate races.
2) On the other hand, racist white people who will vote for Democrats if they are not primed to ever think about race are fantastically distributed to win elections. There are a ton of them in populous swing states, especially in the upper Midwest.
The same they've had since September - shut down the government
Prove that those 800 thousand lives are worth the discomfort
Force the Republicans to be the ones to either nuke the filibuster or bargain in good faith
Don't just sit on your hands because the choices are hard
As you said: "Sorry theres nothing better as a choice"
If voters have to grin and bear it, our politicians should do the same
Because the other guy wants to outright kill me and i understand the actual political landscape in the country.
Like I said sorry there aren't better options.
Like I'm of the mood they should just fuckin burn it down, but I also understand my sentiments are extreme
"Burning down the system" doesn't strike me as a particularly accurate assessment of the argument, but I don't see how aggressively supporting dreamers is a liability with the Dem base. Certainly not how it's more of a liability than their current choices.
How do they get another vote without threatening a shutdown?
Re last paragraph: there were votes on several proposals already. (Including Trump's turbo racist idea). That should provide enough leverage I'd think?
What kicked this discussion off was them not tying a vote or passage here to the budget. I.e. to a shutdown. So I'm slightly confused as to what the problem is if it doesn't have to cone to a shutdown, because that's all they've given up.
Well then 800k people burn while you wait for November
I understand how you can arrive at that conclusion, but I personally won't support that stance
Only if the court case goes the wrong way before that point, which is by no means certain
How are they screwing people over?
The votes happened dude. Despite all the yelling about the strategy and the mistakes they did or did not make depending on how you felt, the votes went to the floor.
And they failed. The Democrats don't have the votes for it because of the November 2016 elections. And that's basically it.
They can't screw anyone over here, they don't have the power.
No one's going anywhere for the moment. And more importantly there has to be a way to fix it now. The President is a racist who wants massive cuts to legal immigration for anything to happen. At best.
So what do you expect the Dems could do to stop it right now?
Politics is more than the vote count on the floor. Especially when you're the minority.
Refuse to sign off on the budget
Campaign about how the Republicans could've had their cake with reconciliation, but they wasted it on tax cuts for the rich, so they don't get to whine about working with Democrats
Campaign about saving 800k lives
Get out there and stand their ground and don't blink this time
Sure but if your complaint is that they need to message better that isn't "screwing people over".
Political messaging is about more then just vote counts. Actual policy is not. The only people actual effecting anyone here are Republicans. Democrats got their votes and they failed and that's literally it for what they can actually accomplish here related to people getting screwed over.
Like, I'm not sure you can emphasize this enough: the vote happened. That's what Democrats can force with enough leverage: a vote. They did. And the votes failed. They can yell and scream and take hostages and all that shit but all they can get for all that is another vote. And there is no reason to think the vote won't just fail again.