Politicians can't reasonably be expected to serve if the rug is going to always be pulled out from underneath them the second people like you don't have their unrealistic expectations filled within an unrealistic deadline.
It's worth reiterating in the face of such insults that the left's demand here isn't that the Dems somehow pass DACA as the minority party but that they better use the activist tools at their disposal on behalf of immigrants, with full understanding it may well come to naught. Henroid and others have listed exactly what kind of behavior they'd like to see from Dems.
The Dems also offered up the wall for $25 billion in exchange for 1.8 million Dreamers getting the pathway to citizenship. Trump counters with $25 billion for 2 year extension to DACA. Koch Bros. wants Trump to take the Dems’ deal.
Make it a three year extension and I'd vote for it. The wall is never going to get past the planning phase due to all the lawsuits, so throw as much money at that as you want. It's a waste, but a harmless one.
I'm torn here.
On the one hand, Wall + 3 year covers us (hopefully) until Dems can retake.
On the other hand: definitely some Wall. I guess it depends on the actual funding is actually going to this idiocy, but it may also mean lots more OCE agents.
On the other hand, the Dems deal was path to citizenship or no wall. And I seem to recall that the "path" the GOP agreed to sucked ass. 12 years or something? And also Wall/ICE funds.
In both cases, we already know ICE wouldn't give a fuck about either DACA reform. Amd the new more certainly wouldn't make matter better.
I think I'd prefer neither. The courts seem to be covering the Dreamers. If we can hold the status quo until Jan and get a majority; that's optimal.
This budget will only cover FY18 right? Which means a new budget fight right before the election? If so: I don't want any deal with Wall/ICE funds short of Dreamer amnesty.
Yeah, the courts are holding up the DACA so far, but as far as I can tell the only reason they're able to do so is because of the administration's incompetence; and while their incompetence has been flowing like an unending stream for the last year, I'm not exactly comfortable betting 800k lives against them finally getting their shit together for the all of ten minutes it would take to put together a valid executive order on this. Whether some of the wall funds could go towards more ICE agents is a worry. The wall is a non-starter: between the bidding process, graft, and lawsuits it's not going anywhere, more ICE agents OTOH are a direct increase in the harm caused to immigrant groups, so if there were a possibility that some (or worse, all) of that $25B could go towards a massive ramp-up in ICE activities... yeah, that's gonna be a problem.
That's reason it seems like a gamble either way. We know they're going to be detaining and deporting Dreamers either way.
Trump could stop pretending To end DACA because of constitutional nuance, and just rescind it. But will he before the election? The FY19 budget fight?
My understanding of the DACA problem is that all 800k don't get the boot at once, they just won't be able to renew their two-year permits. So lets say Trump ends it right after election day, but we win.
Will the rolling expiration of those permits hurt more immigrants over the intervening time period than an up-funded ICE presence?
Plausibly, as, if my understanding on what no more DACA means is correct, that's 1000 people a day now in ICE's crosshairs. But the alternatives only get better if we win. Does that compromise help us or hurt us there?
But if that money really just goes to planning the wall, it's not nearly as troubling. It's stupid,
but it's fine. I'll just think of it as Trump paying $30k / dreamer to bloat his ego.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
And other people would have s very different reaction to you on the wall.
The thing about the court case and DACA is Trump wants to pretend that he's not against it, because it is broadly popular. But that means he has to invent bullshit to get rid of it and that bullshit hurts him in court.
The wall isn't going to even started in two years, so I'm more than happy to trade money for lives on that subject. If people have a different opinion, fine; but I have to wonder why, if facing the same deal, they'd prioritize opposing the wall.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Henroid on
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
You vote in those you can at the local and state levels, changing the political landscape in your area over time and eventually changing the political spectrum at the national level. If you don't have candidates at the local level, run for local office on that platform.
Your options are [change things slowly over time with a lot of effort] or [accept the status quo]. There isn't really a third option that doesn't land you in prison.
Demands from the base are toothless if they're accompanied by a convinction to vote and vote D no matter what.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
It should be said that there is a third non-prison option: whinge about how bad things are while letting perfect be the enemy of good, refuse to vote for the least worst candidate while weakening the voting pool for the folks who arent actively making things worse, and watch the system burn and people's lives get worse while feeling smug about it on the internet. That's also an option.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
800k lives are neither a "small reason" to justify judging the Democrats harshly, nor a "purity test" from the left of the party
And if the Republicans were so goddamned lockstep they wouldn't need Democratic votes to pass their budget
Again, "it doesn't look possible to win, better not try" is a pathetic message to send when you're literally giving up on 800k American lives
The amount of "shut up and vote Dem" really is depressing.
This may come as a bit of a shock, but we still live in a democracy and votes have consequences. The consequences of the last vote is the Executive trying to tear apart DACA. So let's get into a position where we can actually take a swing. Politicians go where the votes are. Dems have shown that even after the biggest of wins, they are not necessarily there. So we can either slog through this, winning vote by vote. Getting the incrments we can win,
Or we can lose.
Fencingsax on
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Continue to fight for the issue. Keep changing voters’ minds. Vote your heart in primaries. Grill candidates on what they’re going to do about the issue. Get Trump out of office.
Ultimately our representatives are representative of our views. It’s not a coincidence that moderate Democrats come from purple areas and far left Democrats come from deep blue areas. This isn’t like gun control.
76% of Democrats are in favor of continuing DACA. If I remember correctly, more than 80% of Dem Senators voted to keep the shutdown going. Worry about the 24% of Democrats who don’t want DACA—because our representatives certainly do.
800k lives are neither a "small reason" to justify judging the Democrats harshly, nor a "purity test" from the left of the party
And if the Republicans were so goddamned lockstep they wouldn't need Democratic votes to pass their budget
Again, "it doesn't look possible to win, better not try" is a pathetic message to send when you're literally giving up on 800k American lives
The amount of "shut up and vote Dem" really is depressing.
It’s not “Shut up and vote Dem”.
Keep yelling, yell louder, but yell at the people actually wronging you, and don’t vote in a way that helps those who are actively attacking you.
If a Dem votes against DACA then primary that fucker, but in the General it will almost always be a choice between a Democrat and a Republican and while one side may not give you everything you want the other side is actively working to deny you what you want.
Well, this worked out about how I expected it to. A bunch of ghouls and clowns in charge everywhere. And for as much as people love to run their mouths about how they prioritize the issues of people of color of everything else, it's a nice reality check to just go back to seeing real colors for a while. Truth hurts, but it's better than the endless bullshit.
There is an opportunity in this, to divorce the language around immigration from the dehumanizing focus on productivity and the poor unpicked fruits. It'd be nice to see the language used around immigration be a bit less dominated by the incompetent boobs who like to think it's best to talk about immigrants like they're pieces of wealth generating machines.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
Better than giving the supermajority to the other side that's definitely going to try to kill folks.
Sorry there's only shitty options.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
Politics starts locally. Want better protections for your civil liberties? Go give a shit about your county commissioners, tax collectors, sheriffs, and state representatives.
Because, as a nation, the left has an abysmal record in turning out for any of those, leading most of our state legislatures to be controlled by the GOP and most of our law enforcement agencies to be run by white, prejudiced, good-old boys when no one turns out to vote in folks who will actually bring positive change.
The federal reflects the commonalities of each local and state demographics. If the majority of democrats across the country have voted in such folks, that will be adopted on the national platform. The national platform does not set policy for the local platforms for progressive change, for either party, ever. Only for retaining whatever status-quo they like at the time.
You have to start locally for change. Which means giving a shit on every election and doing legwork to promote candidates.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
What I said remains accurate though, despite your comments here.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
Politics starts locally. Want better protections for your civil liberties? Go give a shit about your county commissioners, tax collectors, sheriffs, and state representatives.
Because, as a nation, the left has an abysmal record in turning out for any of those, leading most of our state legislatures to be controlled by the GOP and most of our law enforcement agencies to be run by white, prejudiced, good-old boys when no one turns out to vote in folks who will actually bring positive change.
The federal reflects the commonalities of each local and state demographics. If the majority of democrats across the country have voted in such folks, that will be adopted on the national platform. The national platform does not set policy for the local platforms for progressive change, for either party, ever. Only for retaining whatever status-quo they like at the time.
You have to start locally for change. Which means giving a shit on every election and doing legwork to promote candidates.
This is a criticism of a Democratic party which has ignored local elections and collapsed at the state level. You can't claim to represent the left, suck ass at elections, then lecture leftists about their poor performance. They're not the national party with national resources.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
Assuming they don't have any other priorities that are less likely to piss people off. So let them fix healthcare, the opioid crisis, minimum wage, taxation, foreign policy, schools, childcare, and the like. But then we'll totally get around to fixing problems that are specific to being a minority.
Just want to point out, the original DREAM Act (August 1, 2001), if it'd not been killed, would almost be old enough to vote. If 17.5 years isn't a long enough time to wait, I don't know what to say.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
Politics starts locally. Want better protections for your civil liberties? Go give a shit about your county commissioners, tax collectors, sheriffs, and state representatives.
Because, as a nation, the left has an abysmal record in turning out for any of those, leading most of our state legislatures to be controlled by the GOP and most of our law enforcement agencies to be run by white, prejudiced, good-old boys when no one turns out to vote in folks who will actually bring positive change.
The federal reflects the commonalities of each local and state demographics. If the majority of democrats across the country have voted in such folks, that will be adopted on the national platform. The national platform does not set policy for the local platforms for progressive change, for either party, ever. Only for retaining whatever status-quo they like at the time.
You have to start locally for change. Which means giving a shit on every election and doing legwork to promote candidates.
This is a criticism of a Democratic party which has ignored local elections and collapsed at the state level. You can't claim to represent the left, suck ass at elections, then lecture leftists about their poor performance. They're not the national party with national resources.
I could give a rats ass about the party. You know how we got my local municipality to change its shitty, racist zoning regulations? We got out in the streets, at the grocery stores, at the HOAs, and on street corners and held signs, gave out flyers, and made our voices heard. Got our guy elected on the second attempt in as many years. It was hard, but it was communicated and worked. We did the same with the school board and our county commissioners. Have we changed everything? No. That's going to take years and more work. But each election the discussions have been less about "what can we do for you, white middle class southern family?" and more about "what can we do to make a more inclusive community for everyone?" The messaging works.
That's what I mean by effort. You can whinge on forums all the time, but if you want actual political change go do some shit to make that happen. Take your days off to volunteer. Send emails on your lunch breaks/smoke breaks. Take an hour before or after work to help coordinate phone trees and meetups.
And, this year, we do have state democratic support for the first time. They noticed what we were doing and have provided funding to help. Would it have been grand if we had it earlier? Sure. But I'll take what I can get.
Stop whinging about what the federal politicians do and go actually be the change you want.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
Assuming they don't have any other priorities that are less likely to piss people off. So let them fix healthcare, the opioid crisis, minimum wage, taxation, foreign policy, schools, childcare, and the like. But then we'll totally get around to fixing problems that are specific to being a minority.
Just want to point out, the original DREAM Act (August 1, 2001), if it'd not been killed, would almost be old enough to vote. If 17.5 years isn't a long enough time to wait, I don't know what to say.
Republicans have controlled at least one house of Congress for almost that entire time. And when Democrats did have control of both briefly, the balance of power was in the hands of a lot of Blue Dogs. (let's remember how the healthcare votes went as an example). It doesn't matter how long a bill has been sitting around if the votes aren't there for it.
Just a reminder: Democrats voted for comprehensive immigration reform that would have solved a bunch of the problems. Repeatedly. Hell, there are votes in the Senate right now for an immigration package (at least if McCain were healthy enough to vote, not sure if he is not). Could probably pass the House, if Ryan didn't give Steve King a veto.
The problem, as always, is Mitch goddamn McConnell in general and Paul Ryan caving to his lunatic fringe. Well, and now Trump.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
And if those Democrats that get voted in don't change the party's position of giving up on immigration reform at the first sign of trouble? What do we do then? Because they sure as hell aren't making it a campaign issue.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
But if you don't, the USA is definitely going to continually warp between Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, where one moment we are making steady baby steps to progress, then, whoops, there's an election and the "We hate immigrants" party grows hair and teeth and starts tearing down everything.
Or is your solution to find a way of killing Dr Jekyll, but not Mr Hyde, and then we don't get the moral confusion of occasionally making some progress? We only get the perfect moral clarity of absolute and constant hate?
CelestialBadger on
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Enc, you don't actually know anything about me or what I do at a local polticial level so drop it
I don't know anything about you, what I do know is politics. Which is what we are talking about here. If you want change, you got to make it happen locally. And for all the considerable failings of the Democratic party they are what actually tends to be the least worst, if not best case for keeping the nation running.
And what else I know is you and others are complaining that the Democrats aren't worth supporting. Maybe so, but the alternative is the GOP unless you suddenly have Ross Perot levels of money and even then you are more likely to ensure the GOP gets re-elected and causes more harm to minority, vulnerable, and generally sane Americans.
You don't have to like it, but that's the system in place. It hasn't changed in 250 years. Party names flip and replace each other, but it always comes down to a regressive, elitist minority party or a progressive, big-tent, imperfect coalition party.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
I know right?
And what else I know is you and others are complaining that the Democrats aren't worth supporting.
Well, since you didn't ask, my actual position is that the Democrats are blinded by the comfort of their class and their own white privilege and best case scenario are hollowed out from the actual left and having their corpse worn like we're trying to evade the Men in Black. They've inherited tools they don't know how to use and are going to get us killed.
They shouldn't be treated as allies, but the least powerful opposition.
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
General elections are zero sum with only two possible winners, so yeah we get like that.
Happily, primaries are not. If you think incumbent Dems suck, vote for other Dems in the primary.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
We've been highlighting specific things the Democrats could be doing that they aren't. For pages now. I'm not sure why it keeps getting ignored or turned into another patronizing lecture.
Thinking about how nasty people get to immigrants when they get angry about something or -God forbid- vocal about it, it comes down to how people view the role of immigrants in the service of their politics. The point of your Mexican, black, whatever immigrant is to be a kind of colorful accessory, and you become virtuous by the association. But the point of an accessory is to make you look good and not to yap yap yap angrily about whatever its dumbass wants. What people want immigration to be about, above all else, is themselves.
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
We've been highlighting specific things the Democrats could be doing that they aren't. For pages now. I'm not sure why it keeps getting ignored or turned into another patronizing lecture.
It's like there's a cognitive inability to envision someone who would vote against a Dem in the primary, vote for that Dem in the general, and still criticize that Democrat.
"I don't like what they did during the DACA shutdown."
"We have a two party system. You want a Republican? This is how it is. Use primaries to get rid of them. Still vote for them in the general."
"Doing that already. Am I allowed to criticize them or discuss their missteps now? No, I still don't understand the system? Okay."
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
We've been highlighting specific things the Democrats could be doing that they aren't. For pages now. I'm not sure why it keeps getting ignored or turned into another patronizing lecture.
It's like there's a cognitive inability to envision someone who would vote against a Dem in the primary, vote for that Dem in the general, and still criticize that Democrat.
"I don't like what they did during the DACA shutdown."
"We have a two party system. You want a Republican? This is how it is. Use primaries to get rid of them. Still vote for them in the general."
"Doing that already. Am I allowed to criticize them or discuss their missteps now? No, I still don't understand the system? Okay."
Except step 1 is actually
"The Dems arent worthy of my support and I won't vote for them".
Thinking about how nasty people get to immigrants when they get angry about something or -God forbid- vocal about it, it comes down to how people view the role of immigrants in the service of their politics. The point of your Mexican, black, whatever immigrant is to be a kind of colorful accessory, and you become virtuous by the association. But the point of an accessory is to make you look good and not to yap yap yap angrily about whatever its dumbass wants. What people want immigration to be about, above all else, is themselves.
Are you going to contribute to the discussion or just drop by to call anyone who disagrees with you a racist every so often?
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
And there is a group of people forever excusing the Democrats' legit shortcomings on immigration reform (and other issues). The Democrats can somehow never be wrong or at fault for things.
As we're seeing, some of you are outright berating us for being critical. "Go do it yourself then!" as Enc has been posting. Yes let me start my political career right now and maybe in a couple decades I'll be in a position to have a seat and hope other people have seats too?
Or maybe we can tell or representatives (who by the nature of their jobs need to be listening to their constituents) to handle the matter and handle it right. And in the position where they don't have the votes, don't abandon the cause or put out "oh well" type messaging.
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
We've been highlighting specific things the Democrats could be doing that they aren't. For pages now. I'm not sure why it keeps getting ignored or turned into another patronizing lecture.
It's like there's a cognitive inability to envision someone who would vote against a Dem in the primary, vote for that Dem in the general, and still criticize that Democrat.
"I don't like what they did during the DACA shutdown."
"We have a two party system. You want a Republican? This is how it is. Use primaries to get rid of them. Still vote for them in the general."
"Doing that already. Am I allowed to criticize them or discuss their missteps now? No, I still don't understand the system? Okay."
Except step 1 is actually
"The Dems arent worthy of my support and I won't vote for them".
Sometimes, sure it is. For people who say that, perhaps it's worth examining how they got to that point instead of bludgeoning them with "What are you gonna do? Vote Republican?"
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
We've been highlighting specific things the Democrats could be doing that they aren't. For pages now. I'm not sure why it keeps getting ignored or turned into another patronizing lecture.
Because, as the part of the conversation you have been ignoring for pages continually responded, is that even while the Democrats don't do all the things we want them to, you can't change their political priorities without proof of concept for it securing elections. Specifically by winning local/down-ticket elections on the platform and in primaries (where possible).
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
My genuine wish is that someday it will be acceptable to point out the Democrats' failings, half-assed efforts, or half-hearted messaging, without fear campaigning ("OH YEAH WELL TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS") coming into the picture at all.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
We've been highlighting specific things the Democrats could be doing that they aren't. For pages now. I'm not sure why it keeps getting ignored or turned into another patronizing lecture.
Because, as the part of the conversation you have been ignoring for pages continually responded, is that even while the Democrats don't do all the things we want them to, you can't change their political priorities without proof of concept for it securing elections. Specifically by winning local/down-ticket elections on the platform and in primaries (where possible).
So Democrats shouldn't do what's right RE: immigration reform / stopping people being deported, they should only do what is safest for their political career?
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The amount of "shut up and vote Dem" really is depressing.
It's worth reiterating in the face of such insults that the left's demand here isn't that the Dems somehow pass DACA as the minority party but that they better use the activist tools at their disposal on behalf of immigrants, with full understanding it may well come to naught. Henroid and others have listed exactly what kind of behavior they'd like to see from Dems.
That's what people are painting as unreasonable.
That's reason it seems like a gamble either way. We know they're going to be detaining and deporting Dreamers either way.
Trump could stop pretending To end DACA because of constitutional nuance, and just rescind it. But will he before the election? The FY19 budget fight?
My understanding of the DACA problem is that all 800k don't get the boot at once, they just won't be able to renew their two-year permits. So lets say Trump ends it right after election day, but we win.
Will the rolling expiration of those permits hurt more immigrants over the intervening time period than an up-funded ICE presence?
Plausibly, as, if my understanding on what no more DACA means is correct, that's 1000 people a day now in ICE's crosshairs. But the alternatives only get better if we win. Does that compromise help us or hurt us there?
But if that money really just goes to planning the wall, it's not nearly as troubling. It's stupid,
but it's fine. I'll just think of it as Trump paying $30k / dreamer to bloat his ego.
The wall isn't going to even started in two years, so I'm more than happy to trade money for lives on that subject. If people have a different opinion, fine; but I have to wonder why, if facing the same deal, they'd prioritize opposing the wall.
You vote in those you can at the local and state levels, changing the political landscape in your area over time and eventually changing the political spectrum at the national level. If you don't have candidates at the local level, run for local office on that platform.
Your options are [change things slowly over time with a lot of effort] or [accept the status quo]. There isn't really a third option that doesn't land you in prison.
This may come as a bit of a shock, but we still live in a democracy and votes have consequences. The consequences of the last vote is the Executive trying to tear apart DACA. So let's get into a position where we can actually take a swing. Politicians go where the votes are. Dems have shown that even after the biggest of wins, they are not necessarily there. So we can either slog through this, winning vote by vote. Getting the incrments we can win,
Or we can lose.
Continue to fight for the issue. Keep changing voters’ minds. Vote your heart in primaries. Grill candidates on what they’re going to do about the issue. Get Trump out of office.
Ultimately our representatives are representative of our views. It’s not a coincidence that moderate Democrats come from purple areas and far left Democrats come from deep blue areas. This isn’t like gun control.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/nbc-wsj-poll-majority-want-daca-trump-backers-oppose-it-n803371
76% of Democrats are in favor of continuing DACA. If I remember correctly, more than 80% of Dem Senators voted to keep the shutdown going. Worry about the 24% of Democrats who don’t want DACA—because our representatives certainly do.
It’s not “Shut up and vote Dem”.
Keep yelling, yell louder, but yell at the people actually wronging you, and don’t vote in a way that helps those who are actively attacking you.
If a Dem votes against DACA then primary that fucker, but in the General it will almost always be a choice between a Democrat and a Republican and while one side may not give you everything you want the other side is actively working to deny you what you want.
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No, because you can still vote in primaries for Dems that most closely mirror your own desires for legislation.
The result of not voting D in general elections is that Republicans win, and then DACA has absolutely zero chance.
There is an opportunity in this, to divorce the language around immigration from the dehumanizing focus on productivity and the poor unpicked fruits. It'd be nice to see the language used around immigration be a bit less dominated by the incompetent boobs who like to think it's best to talk about immigrants like they're pieces of wealth generating machines.
Then you elect better Democrats. But any option besides "electing Democrats" is going nowhere. There is nothing else.
And hey PoC, maybe this time you give them a supermajority they'll actually protect you.
Better than giving the supermajority to the other side that's definitely going to try to kill folks.
Sorry there's only shitty options.
Politics starts locally. Want better protections for your civil liberties? Go give a shit about your county commissioners, tax collectors, sheriffs, and state representatives.
Because, as a nation, the left has an abysmal record in turning out for any of those, leading most of our state legislatures to be controlled by the GOP and most of our law enforcement agencies to be run by white, prejudiced, good-old boys when no one turns out to vote in folks who will actually bring positive change.
The federal reflects the commonalities of each local and state demographics. If the majority of democrats across the country have voted in such folks, that will be adopted on the national platform. The national platform does not set policy for the local platforms for progressive change, for either party, ever. Only for retaining whatever status-quo they like at the time.
You have to start locally for change. Which means giving a shit on every election and doing legwork to promote candidates.
What I said remains accurate though, despite your comments here.
This is a criticism of a Democratic party which has ignored local elections and collapsed at the state level. You can't claim to represent the left, suck ass at elections, then lecture leftists about their poor performance. They're not the national party with national resources.
Just want to point out, the original DREAM Act (August 1, 2001), if it'd not been killed, would almost be old enough to vote. If 17.5 years isn't a long enough time to wait, I don't know what to say.
I could give a rats ass about the party. You know how we got my local municipality to change its shitty, racist zoning regulations? We got out in the streets, at the grocery stores, at the HOAs, and on street corners and held signs, gave out flyers, and made our voices heard. Got our guy elected on the second attempt in as many years. It was hard, but it was communicated and worked. We did the same with the school board and our county commissioners. Have we changed everything? No. That's going to take years and more work. But each election the discussions have been less about "what can we do for you, white middle class southern family?" and more about "what can we do to make a more inclusive community for everyone?" The messaging works.
That's what I mean by effort. You can whinge on forums all the time, but if you want actual political change go do some shit to make that happen. Take your days off to volunteer. Send emails on your lunch breaks/smoke breaks. Take an hour before or after work to help coordinate phone trees and meetups.
And, this year, we do have state democratic support for the first time. They noticed what we were doing and have provided funding to help. Would it have been grand if we had it earlier? Sure. But I'll take what I can get.
Stop whinging about what the federal politicians do and go actually be the change you want.
Republicans have controlled at least one house of Congress for almost that entire time. And when Democrats did have control of both briefly, the balance of power was in the hands of a lot of Blue Dogs. (let's remember how the healthcare votes went as an example). It doesn't matter how long a bill has been sitting around if the votes aren't there for it.
The problem, as always, is Mitch goddamn McConnell in general and Paul Ryan caving to his lunatic fringe. Well, and now Trump.
But if you don't, the USA is definitely going to continually warp between Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, where one moment we are making steady baby steps to progress, then, whoops, there's an election and the "We hate immigrants" party grows hair and teeth and starts tearing down everything.
Or is your solution to find a way of killing Dr Jekyll, but not Mr Hyde, and then we don't get the moral confusion of occasionally making some progress? We only get the perfect moral clarity of absolute and constant hate?
I don't know anything about you, what I do know is politics. Which is what we are talking about here. If you want change, you got to make it happen locally. And for all the considerable failings of the Democratic party they are what actually tends to be the least worst, if not best case for keeping the nation running.
And what else I know is you and others are complaining that the Democrats aren't worth supporting. Maybe so, but the alternative is the GOP unless you suddenly have Ross Perot levels of money and even then you are more likely to ensure the GOP gets re-elected and causes more harm to minority, vulnerable, and generally sane Americans.
You don't have to like it, but that's the system in place. It hasn't changed in 250 years. Party names flip and replace each other, but it always comes down to a regressive, elitist minority party or a progressive, big-tent, imperfect coalition party.
I know right?
Well, since you didn't ask, my actual position is that the Democrats are blinded by the comfort of their class and their own white privilege and best case scenario are hollowed out from the actual left and having their corpse worn like we're trying to evade the Men in Black. They've inherited tools they don't know how to use and are going to get us killed.
They shouldn't be treated as allies, but the least powerful opposition.
You can complain about the Democrats all you want. People do it all the time, on this forum, within the political left, etc, etc. But it will remain true that there is no alternative for the kind of legislative and governmental actions being discussed here.
General elections are zero sum with only two possible winners, so yeah we get like that.
Happily, primaries are not. If you think incumbent Dems suck, vote for other Dems in the primary.
We've been highlighting specific things the Democrats could be doing that they aren't. For pages now. I'm not sure why it keeps getting ignored or turned into another patronizing lecture.
It's like there's a cognitive inability to envision someone who would vote against a Dem in the primary, vote for that Dem in the general, and still criticize that Democrat.
"I don't like what they did during the DACA shutdown."
"We have a two party system. You want a Republican? This is how it is. Use primaries to get rid of them. Still vote for them in the general."
"Doing that already. Am I allowed to criticize them or discuss their missteps now? No, I still don't understand the system? Okay."
Except step 1 is actually
"The Dems arent worthy of my support and I won't vote for them".
Are you going to contribute to the discussion or just drop by to call anyone who disagrees with you a racist every so often?
As we're seeing, some of you are outright berating us for being critical. "Go do it yourself then!" as Enc has been posting. Yes let me start my political career right now and maybe in a couple decades I'll be in a position to have a seat and hope other people have seats too?
Or maybe we can tell or representatives (who by the nature of their jobs need to be listening to their constituents) to handle the matter and handle it right. And in the position where they don't have the votes, don't abandon the cause or put out "oh well" type messaging.
Sometimes, sure it is. For people who say that, perhaps it's worth examining how they got to that point instead of bludgeoning them with "What are you gonna do? Vote Republican?"
Because, as the part of the conversation you have been ignoring for pages continually responded, is that even while the Democrats don't do all the things we want them to, you can't change their political priorities without proof of concept for it securing elections. Specifically by winning local/down-ticket elections on the platform and in primaries (where possible).