FreiA French Prometheus UnboundDeadwoodRegistered Userregular
The overall theme of the Shadow King and his manipulations kind of hit a nerve with me, because I was raised by an abusive father which is basically what the Shadow King was to David, manifesting all this fear and etc in his brain since he was a boy. He even says he wanted David to love him (after all that abuse) which is something my dad said to me once. It was a manipulation, of course, or an attempt at it. I love how this show has dealt with mental illness, though. The "separate paths" episode was amazing, one of the best episodes I've seen.
Maybe it's the actor performance but also maybe intentional:
I think the Shadow King was a bit lonely and glad for his confrontations with David. He definitely seemed more eager to convert David the closer he got to finding his body.
Maybe it's the actor performance but also maybe intentional:
I think the Shadow King was a bit lonely and glad for his confrontations with David. He definitely seemed more eager to convert David the closer he got to finding his body.
I’m not entirely sure he was lying about wanting David to love him. They shared a body for 30 years, Farouk thinks his kind of existence is a blessing, and he might have genuinely been lonely in that position. I kind of believe he thought he was giving David a gift by taking away a sister David resented and replacing her with his best friend.
I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that he’s also singing The Who in the opening scene.
He’s a manipulative fuck, but he’s a person too, and he’s got more in common with David than either would probably like.
Why was Shadow King trusted to take the restraint off? Did they 100% go full tilt a free Shadow King is better option than David based on future projections only the Shadow King saw?
Edit:
I am okay with suspicions David is a future threat. Division 3 considered him one all season before phone calls from the future. But SK is a known offender.
Why was Shadow King trusted to take the restraint off? Did they 100% go full tilt a free Shadow King is better option than David based on future projections only the Shadow King saw?
Edit:
I am okay with suspicions David is a future threat. Division 3 considered him one all season before phone calls from the future. But SK is a known offender.
I think the Shadow King planted a new delusion in Syd using the mouse, and it spread, allowing him to gain the trust of Division 3. There's no other rational explanation for them fully setting him free, whether they turned on David or not. Which I think sort of undermines the message of the episode because it leaves open the possibility that David is still the hero and it's everybody else who's wrong.
Why was Shadow King trusted to take the restraint off? Did they 100% go full tilt a free Shadow King is better option than David based on future projections only the Shadow King saw?
Edit:
I am okay with suspicions David is a future threat. Division 3 considered him one all season before phone calls from the future. But SK is a known offender.
I think the Shadow King planted a new delusion in Syd using the mouse, and it spread, allowing him to gain the trust of Division 3. There's no other rational explanation for them fully setting him free, whether they turned on David or not. Which I think sort of undermines the message of the episode because it leaves open the possibility that David is still the hero and it's everybody else who's wrong.
That is the only way to explain that and they ARE wrong:
David is fucked up, but nowhere near as much the Shadow King, and hell, or a lot of Section 3 too. Even if he IS mentally ill. He did not deserve to be locked up and zombified. They underplayed his sickness if they want to use that.
It's almost like they caused the end of the world trying to stop it. Never seen that before, oopsie!
If they go with it's not the Shadow King- like he said, they had their chance. Fuck 'em.
He probably won't nuke the world in the end if that's the case, but if section 3 is destroyed oh well.
All the mouse did was let Syd know what David did to her. He fucked with her mind because he was terrified that she didn’t love him any more, and then he date raped her. She was scared in that scene, and rightfully so. David crossed so many boundaries, personal and power-wise. She wanted to be alone, and this all powerful being showed up to tell her what they should do while she tried to figure out what was wrong with herself.
Farouk being free threw me a bit, but I think David’s actions (witnessed by multiple people before Farouk short circuited his crown to minimally access his powers) convinced the team he needed to be dealt with. They didn’t want to kill David, they wanted to help, but if things went wrong the end of the world was on the line. The shadow king essentially gets brought in as an insurance policy. I don’t doubt he manipulated them, but less than many want to believe. He showed them the truth, even if it was to serve his own interests.
They made David’s actions, no matter how vile, tragically understandable. My wife and I are starting a rewatch, and it’s heartbreaking. David really does put his entire concept of reality on to the need for Syd’s love. He loses that and he’s terrified, he doesn’t want to be lonely again, but he does something monstrous instead of facing reality.
I love that the show’s crew had the guts and talent to take this direction and make it so tragic. I enjoyed every episode of this season, but the end result was truly something magnificent to behold, and it absolutely addressed every concern I had along the way.
I’m still a little euphoric about things even a day later (we rewatched it tonight, even!), but I can’t emphasize enough how special I think this show is. It’s got my full faith moving forward.
Maybe it's the actor performance but also maybe intentional:
I think the Shadow King was a bit lonely and glad for his confrontations with David. He definitely seemed more eager to convert David the closer he got to finding his body.
Being a god probably gets boring. The Shadow King would want to face a worthy adversary once in a while.
after a whole season of "David is gonna be the bad guy" it was a little disappointing that that was the case, even if nuanced.
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FreiA French Prometheus UnboundDeadwoodRegistered Userregular
on a side note from all the ending talk, I'm excited for the full soundtrack with all the covers to come out. they did an amazing job. fargo season 2 was pretty similar, bought the soundtrack right away. think it should be out soon.
after a whole season of "David is gonna be the bad guy" it was a little disappointing that that was the case, even if nuanced.
He hasn't even
done anything outright evil yet. Nothing to replace the Shadow King as the villain. Which is why the ending doesn't work unless it's all the SK.
They're taking the word of someone in the future who could have who knows what kind of motive and the damn Shadow King to get to the ending, and even then they are over reacting and treating David like he's the SK himself right off. It was pretty ridiculous Cary jumps right to "Treachery!" when he has no idea what David did or why. You can apply treachery more to Syd at that point for crying out loud.
They spent too much time on the weirdness and not enough on getting to this point.
We don't know what anyone did, but they're all either mind controlled or fucking stupid. Only two choices.
And they're both rapists, so a matched pair now. Though in both cases it was more complicated than that.
And I think you can make a strong argument that Syd's offense was worse - in her case, (1) someone actually got physically 'raped' (really two, if you include her mom's body), and (2) someone was punished for the crime which they didn't commit
With David, I'm not even sure what we'd actually call that crime - since he was astral projecting to her mind, he wasn't physically there, so... forced masturbation?
I agree, the 'we're going to change our thought process based on what the person we've been chasing all season says Syd told him in the future' change seemed a bit quick and un-earned, particularly when Syd is a day past attempted murder of David based on the same reasoning
We don't know what anyone did, but they're all either mind controlled or fucking stupid. Only two choices.
And they're both rapists, so a matched pair now. Though in both cases it was more complicated than that.
And I think you can make a strong argument that Syd's offense was worse - in her case, (1) someone actually got physically 'raped' (really two, if you include her mom's body), and (2) someone was punished for the crime which they didn't commit
With David, I'm not even sure what we'd actually call that crime - since he was astral projecting to her mind, he wasn't physically there, so... forced masturbation?
I agree, the 'we're going to change our thought process based on what the person we've been chasing all season says Syd told him in the future' change seemed a bit quick and un-earned, particularly when Syd is a day past attempted murder of David based on the same reasoning
We would call it rape, he literally erased the memory of his ex girlfriend breaking up with him so when she woke up she wouldnt still hate his guts and not want to fuck him anymore. When getting home she asked to be left alone and he STILL went and coerced her into having sex when she was clearly under the influence of a mind altering substance, in this case David. Thats rape.
Are we also forgetting how David tortured to near death a mentor of his, all the while smiling and enjoying doing it?
There are no heroes in this world. I kind of love it.
erase the memory of her "breaking up" with him. He possibly erased the memory of her being shoved down a path of thought that lead her to try and KILL HIM based on mostly the testimony of their mortal enemy. Either by the SK or a natural mental snafu. She tried to shoot him, that's a bit past breaking up.
At that point we can assume that's all he did to her, as despite the looks he gave while doing whatever he was justified in all his actions to some degree and had good intent, but they can always retcon it to he made her love him or something. Same with him going to her. Maybe he did something, maybe he just went to her.
It was fucked up, but her actions trump his just in this episode, much less her past. And depending on what David did it may have been the standard problem of telepaths messing with your head without permission, but on the other hand he may have been FIXING her too. Being as the SK is walking around that lends points to that. The whole situation is screwed up, but they really made it explode without David being delusional.
At the moment it's a pretty weak ass delusion they trying to go with. "I'm a good person and deserve to be loved." can be twisted if you're not, but there's little to contradict that so far. And I mean the delusion of the voice in your head is kind of not going to be the real delusion if you do have one? And what does he do when he goes "bad"? Flees. The people trying to kill him and/or ruin his life. Again. Fucking Shadow King.
the John Hamm monologue pretty clearly tells us the shadow king is influencing people at D3
it might have been ambiguous, but the fact that they unshackled the shadow king pretty much cements that they're either under his control again or that they are all incredibly stupid
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
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David is some shade of rapist but under rather crazy circumstances. In no other way is he villainous.
As much as I love to hate Amahl Farouk (doubly so with the addition of Navid Negahban), I kind of wish he'd been properly stopped this season. I need catharsis for all the damage he has done.
Kerry grossing out Cary by talking about the minotaur's blood was great.
the John Hamm monologue pretty clearly tells us the shadow king is influencing people at D3
it might have been ambiguous, but the fact that they unshackled the shadow king pretty much cements that they're either under his control again or that they are all incredibly stupid
If they believe David is going to end the world, that the one constant in his basic decency has been broken (by raping Syd, which he absolutely did), then you need a protection plan if the intervention goes poorly. A reined in Farouk is useless in that scenario. He probably made a very convincing case for his cooperation, but the facts bear out the argument. David can end the world in a blink, and he can’t be trusted to act rationally when he’s confronted with the truth.
I’m not saying it was a great intervention, but you work with the rationally evil psychics you have.
There’s a lot of evidence that David was taking a bad turn here aside from the accusations of his friends, and it takes a lot of effort to ignore it. He fucks with Syd’s mind and physically forces himself on her. She is scared and confused in that scene, and he is being portrayed as a monster by the camera, all unflattering light and goblin faces. Earlier he alluded to believing he’s a god by telling Lenny that “God has plans for her.” The morning of the trial he is as nonchalant and cocky as can be about saving the world. He is absent of moral concerns about what he has done. He’s not irredeemable, but the man is untethered and dangerous.
David isn't villainous, so much as he's profoundly fucked up. He and Syd convinced themselves that it was all Farouk and that things were fine.
The thing is:
David can't really refute that it wasn't just the Shadow King having a ball destroying section 3. And the Shadow King was nowhere to be found when David had the power drill. David does need therapy and medication.
But the Shadow King is now reaping the benefit of this and of future Syds warning. So much has come to pass of what she warned about that they have now let the fox into the hen house. If SK does not have a hold over someone yet, he will soon.
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There’s a good interview with Noah Hawley about some of the more contentious events of the last episode that’s a good read. Death of the author and all that, but it makes very clear what was intended by certain scenes.
There’s a good interview with Noah Hawley about some of the more contentious events of the last episode that’s a good read. Death of the author and all that, but it makes very clear what was intended by certain scenes.
Why was Shadow King trusted to take the restraint off? Did they 100% go full tilt a free Shadow King is better option than David based on future projections only the Shadow King saw?
Edit:
I am okay with suspicions David is a future threat. Division 3 considered him one all season before phone calls from the future. But SK is a known offender.
I think the Shadow King planted a new delusion in Syd using the mouse, and it spread, allowing him to gain the trust of Division 3. There's no other rational explanation for them fully setting him free, whether they turned on David or not. Which I think sort of undermines the message of the episode because it leaves open the possibility that David is still the hero and it's everybody else who's wrong.
That is the only way to explain that and they ARE wrong:
David is fucked up, but nowhere near as much the Shadow King, and hell, or a lot of Section 3 too. Even if he IS mentally ill. He did not deserve to be locked up and zombified. They underplayed his sickness if they want to use that.
It's almost like they caused the end of the world trying to stop it. Never seen that before, oopsie!
If they go with it's not the Shadow King- like he said, they had their chance. Fuck 'em.
He probably won't nuke the world in the end if that's the case, but if section 3 is destroyed oh well.
The problem I have with saying they're all wrong is that it implies David is right. But he raped his ex-girlfriend. Had he not done that, and his only crimes were psychic torture and temporarily taking Syd's memories, maybe an argument could be made. But IMO they took him way too far to be sympathetic in this episode.
Why was Shadow King trusted to take the restraint off? Did they 100% go full tilt a free Shadow King is better option than David based on future projections only the Shadow King saw?
Edit:
I am okay with suspicions David is a future threat. Division 3 considered him one all season before phone calls from the future. But SK is a known offender.
I think the Shadow King planted a new delusion in Syd using the mouse, and it spread, allowing him to gain the trust of Division 3. There's no other rational explanation for them fully setting him free, whether they turned on David or not. Which I think sort of undermines the message of the episode because it leaves open the possibility that David is still the hero and it's everybody else who's wrong.
That is the only way to explain that and they ARE wrong:
David is fucked up, but nowhere near as much the Shadow King, and hell, or a lot of Section 3 too. Even if he IS mentally ill. He did not deserve to be locked up and zombified. They underplayed his sickness if they want to use that.
It's almost like they caused the end of the world trying to stop it. Never seen that before, oopsie!
If they go with it's not the Shadow King- like he said, they had their chance. Fuck 'em.
He probably won't nuke the world in the end if that's the case, but if section 3 is destroyed oh well.
The problem I have with saying they're all wrong is that it implies David is right. But he raped his ex-girlfriend. Had he not done that, and his only crimes were psychic torture and temporarily taking Syd's memories, maybe an argument could be made. But IMO they took him way too far to be sympathetic in this episode.
I don't think the drill was metaphorical.
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Why was Shadow King trusted to take the restraint off? Did they 100% go full tilt a free Shadow King is better option than David based on future projections only the Shadow King saw?
Edit:
I am okay with suspicions David is a future threat. Division 3 considered him one all season before phone calls from the future. But SK is a known offender.
I think the Shadow King planted a new delusion in Syd using the mouse, and it spread, allowing him to gain the trust of Division 3. There's no other rational explanation for them fully setting him free, whether they turned on David or not. Which I think sort of undermines the message of the episode because it leaves open the possibility that David is still the hero and it's everybody else who's wrong.
That is the only way to explain that and they ARE wrong:
David is fucked up, but nowhere near as much the Shadow King, and hell, or a lot of Section 3 too. Even if he IS mentally ill. He did not deserve to be locked up and zombified. They underplayed his sickness if they want to use that.
It's almost like they caused the end of the world trying to stop it. Never seen that before, oopsie!
If they go with it's not the Shadow King- like he said, they had their chance. Fuck 'em.
He probably won't nuke the world in the end if that's the case, but if section 3 is destroyed oh well.
The problem I have with saying they're all wrong is that it implies David is right. But he raped his ex-girlfriend. Had he not done that, and his only crimes were psychic torture and temporarily taking Syd's memories, maybe an argument could be made. But IMO they took him way too far to be sympathetic in this episode.
I don't think the drill was metaphorical.
Yeah I dunno, I'm always very confused about physical space vs psychic mindscape for basically this entire show.
Not sure it would be better if it was metaphorical.
But even then we have levels of villain and from all intents it looks like David is the villain and they’re right to saddle up to the Shadow King, who, while evil, isn’t world ending.
David is more dangerous than the shadow king. Rational people can be bargained with.
See, that's just it. That's all assumption and not really proven out by what we saw. Shadow King is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse still. Way. No question at all. The weirdness and bullshit stuff of the show is getting in the way of that it seems.
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FreiA French Prometheus UnboundDeadwoodRegistered Userregular
taking a small break from plot debate, how much of an acting exercise was the "tree of life" episode for Dan Stevens? that was so much he had to go between as far as range goes, and not to mention makeup changes and etc. would love a full length behind the scenes on that one.
See, that's just it. That's all assumption and not really proven out by what we saw. Shadow King is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse still. Way. No question at all. The weirdness and bullshit stuff of the show is getting in the way of that it seems.
The Shadow King was around a long time without threatening to destroy the world. He is bad, but a localized known quantity.
David is a broken person. His limit is not known.
The ending of Season 2 brought a lot of the “weirdness” into focus.
David hasn't destroyed the world either. He also hasn't <all the outright evil shit the SK did>. I repeat: David has not done anything to justify this except apparently in the characters and some people's HEADS.
So we require more information. See the quote from the show runner above.
Anyway, if they make David the bad guy fuck that, who are we going to root for? People he should obliterate instantly? The SK? Just a bad direction to go.
So we require more information. See the quote from the show runner above.
Anyway, if they make David the bad guy fuck that, who are we going to root for? People he should obliterate instantly? The SK? Just a bad direction to go.
You may be doing a thing where you empathize or project a part of yourself onto a fictional character and may be missing or minimizing some terrible shit that has to be dealt with and acknowledged in order for the narrative to make sense.
I'm calling it Walter White syndrome.
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So we require more information. See the quote from the show runner above.
Anyway, if they make David the bad guy fuck that, who are we going to root for? People he should obliterate instantly? The SK? Just a bad direction to go.
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I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that he’s also singing The Who in the opening scene.
He’s a manipulative fuck, but he’s a person too, and he’s got more in common with David than either would probably like.
Edit:
That is the only way to explain that and they ARE wrong:
It's almost like they caused the end of the world trying to stop it. Never seen that before, oopsie!
If they go with it's not the Shadow King- like he said, they had their chance. Fuck 'em.
He probably won't nuke the world in the end if that's the case, but if section 3 is destroyed oh well.
Also I don’t see anyone talking about the bad thing that David did.
Spoilers for finale in tags
And the terrible thing was that David raped Sid, and it wasn’t even vague either, Sid out right stated it.
Article below
https://www.google.com/amp/collider.com/legion-season-2-ending-explained/amp/
Farouk being free threw me a bit, but I think David’s actions (witnessed by multiple people before Farouk short circuited his crown to minimally access his powers) convinced the team he needed to be dealt with. They didn’t want to kill David, they wanted to help, but if things went wrong the end of the world was on the line. The shadow king essentially gets brought in as an insurance policy. I don’t doubt he manipulated them, but less than many want to believe. He showed them the truth, even if it was to serve his own interests.
They made David’s actions, no matter how vile, tragically understandable. My wife and I are starting a rewatch, and it’s heartbreaking. David really does put his entire concept of reality on to the need for Syd’s love. He loses that and he’s terrified, he doesn’t want to be lonely again, but he does something monstrous instead of facing reality.
I love that the show’s crew had the guts and talent to take this direction and make it so tragic. I enjoyed every episode of this season, but the end result was truly something magnificent to behold, and it absolutely addressed every concern I had along the way.
I’m still a little euphoric about things even a day later (we rewatched it tonight, even!), but I can’t emphasize enough how special I think this show is. It’s got my full faith moving forward.
Being a god probably gets boring. The Shadow King would want to face a worthy adversary once in a while.
He hasn't even
They're taking the word of someone in the future who could have who knows what kind of motive and the damn Shadow King to get to the ending, and even then they are over reacting and treating David like he's the SK himself right off. It was pretty ridiculous Cary jumps right to "Treachery!" when he has no idea what David did or why. You can apply treachery more to Syd at that point for crying out loud.
They spent too much time on the weirdness and not enough on getting to this point.
With David, I'm not even sure what we'd actually call that crime - since he was astral projecting to her mind, he wasn't physically there, so... forced masturbation?
I agree, the 'we're going to change our thought process based on what the person we've been chasing all season says Syd told him in the future' change seemed a bit quick and un-earned, particularly when Syd is a day past attempted murder of David based on the same reasoning
Are we also forgetting how David tortured to near death a mentor of his, all the while smiling and enjoying doing it?
There are no heroes in this world. I kind of love it.
I think it’s a bit of both, but the self-delusion is key to understanding what’s going on with David right now.
At that point we can assume that's all he did to her, as despite the looks he gave while doing whatever he was justified in all his actions to some degree and had good intent, but they can always retcon it to he made her love him or something. Same with him going to her. Maybe he did something, maybe he just went to her.
It was fucked up, but her actions trump his just in this episode, much less her past. And depending on what David did it may have been the standard problem of telepaths messing with your head without permission, but on the other hand he may have been FIXING her too. Being as the SK is walking around that lends points to that. The whole situation is screwed up, but they really made it explode without David being delusional.
At the moment it's a pretty weak ass delusion they trying to go with. "I'm a good person and deserve to be loved." can be twisted if you're not, but there's little to contradict that so far. And I mean the delusion of the voice in your head is kind of not going to be the real delusion if you do have one? And what does he do when he goes "bad"? Flees. The people trying to kill him and/or ruin his life. Again. Fucking Shadow King.
As much as I love to hate Amahl Farouk (doubly so with the addition of Navid Negahban), I kind of wish he'd been properly stopped this season. I need catharsis for all the damage he has done.
Kerry grossing out Cary by talking about the minotaur's blood was great.
"It's treachery" was a little overwrought.
I’m not saying it was a great intervention, but you work with the rationally evil psychics you have.
There’s a lot of evidence that David was taking a bad turn here aside from the accusations of his friends, and it takes a lot of effort to ignore it. He fucks with Syd’s mind and physically forces himself on her. She is scared and confused in that scene, and he is being portrayed as a monster by the camera, all unflattering light and goblin faces. Earlier he alluded to believing he’s a god by telling Lenny that “God has plans for her.” The morning of the trial he is as nonchalant and cocky as can be about saving the world. He is absent of moral concerns about what he has done. He’s not irredeemable, but the man is untethered and dangerous.
The thing is:
But the Shadow King is now reaping the benefit of this and of future Syds warning. So much has come to pass of what she warned about that they have now let the fox into the hen house. If SK does not have a hold over someone yet, he will soon.
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http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/legion-season-2-finale-noah-hawley-interview.html
Edit: Massive, massive spoilers, obviously.
I can sum it up for everyone without any spoilers:
Noah Hawley, showrunner: "....I don’t necessarily need to move the story forward.".
I don't think the drill was metaphorical.
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Yeah I dunno, I'm always very confused about physical space vs psychic mindscape for basically this entire show.
But even then we have levels of villain and from all intents it looks like David is the villain and they’re right to saddle up to the Shadow King, who, while evil, isn’t world ending.
David is more dangerous than the shadow king. Rational people can be bargained with.
The Shadow King was around a long time without threatening to destroy the world. He is bad, but a localized known quantity.
David is a broken person. His limit is not known.
The ending of Season 2 brought a lot of the “weirdness” into focus.
We saw 1 room in the future, it was intact!
Anyway, if they make David the bad guy fuck that, who are we going to root for? People he should obliterate instantly? The SK? Just a bad direction to go.
You may be doing a thing where you empathize or project a part of yourself onto a fictional character and may be missing or minimizing some terrible shit that has to be dealt with and acknowledged in order for the narrative to make sense.
I'm calling it Walter White syndrome.
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I don't want David taken down that path, no, but I don't project myself in him. SK would be dead if I was David etc.
Syd