Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
@hawkbox I'm sorry, but I don't know what that has to do with my original point.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
In theory this is a great idea. The hard part is actually getting it implemented.
Remember, the last time we had a Conservative PM, he made an official address to the nation with the purpose of lying about how part of our democratic process works (calling a potential coalition government by the opposition parties an 'undemocratic coup'). I know there are conservatives in this country who would be onboard with actual proper education on our democratic system. I feel though that there would still be enough opposition to the idea to stop it from happening.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
People who ally with Neo-Nazis are Nazi sympathizers. If they don't want to be considered Nazi sympathizers then they should do their best to repudiate Neo-Nazis. Conservative politics is not necessarily Neo-Nazi adjacent, but plenty of Conservative politicians/political parties seem indifferent or apathetic to the association.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
If "our political views" is defined as "not being Nazi's", then yes, anyone who doesn't line up with that is the enemy.
And anyone who wants to use their political power to enact the policy positions of Nazis is, for all intents and purposes, a nazi as well.
What's the old German joke/saying? If there's 10 people at a table talking with one Nazi, there's 11 Nazis at a table.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
I mean, are you talking literally about how the government works and how voting affects the government? Or are you also including critical thinking, information checking and fact finding?
Because if you're just talking about how government works and voting, that doesn't fix anything about populism and partisanship.
If you're also including critical thinking, then you've just stepped into a minefield. Because one side's critical thinking is another side's indoctrination.
I've seen "critical thinking" turn into a partisan issue in the United States. Its sad.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
People who ally with Neo-Nazis are Nazi sympathizers. If they don't want to be considered Nazi sympathizers then they should do their best to repudiate Neo-Nazis. Conservative politics is not necessarily Neo-Nazi adjacent, but plenty of Conservative politicians/political parties seem indifferent or apathetic to the association.
Who are we talking about, though? Like, there's millions of people you don't know, and haven't heard say they're not Nazis. Do you believe they're all Nazis until they say they're not?
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
If "our political views" is defined as "not being Nazi's", then yes, anyone who doesn't line up with that is the enemy.
And anyone who wants to use their political power to enact the policy positions of Nazis is, for all intents and purposes, a nazi as well.
What's the old German joke/saying? If there's 10 people at a table talking with one Nazi, there's 11 Nazis at a table.
Ok, we've gone beyond the pale of nuts here. What does this have to do with anything being discussed here?
Or are you literally saying there is no longer any grounds for discourse and if you don't identify as a leftist you're officially a nazi? Because that's some straight up crazy bullshit if so.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
If "our political views" is defined as "not being Nazi's", then yes, anyone who doesn't line up with that is the enemy.
And anyone who wants to use their political power to enact the policy positions of Nazis is, for all intents and purposes, a nazi as well.
What's the old German joke/saying? If there's 10 people at a table talking with one Nazi, there's 11 Nazis at a table.
That's not what was being talked about, though. Don't move the goalposts.
I think that's a false equivalency. As a nation we are bought in on democracy so it behooves us as citizens to know how the democratic process works. In short, the country is in 100% agreement that we should be a democracy.
You need to talk to someone in the right. They are not in "100% agreement that we should be a democracy." At least, not insofar that it involves people on the left having voting rights and winning elections. My alt-right brother for instance sees nothing wrong in Russia meddling in the 2016 election to help Trump, and calls Republicans' efforts at disenfranchisement of left-wing minorities "self-defence".
Emphasis mine.
No where does it talk about being or not being Nazis. Just being on the right.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
I mean, are you talking literally about how the government works and how voting affects the government? Or are you also including critical thinking, information checking and fact finding?
Because if you're just talking about how government works and voting, that doesn't fix anything about populism and partisanship.
If you're also including critical thinking, then you've just stepped into a minefield. Because one side's critical thinking is another side's indoctrination.
I've seen "critical thinking" turn into a partisan issue in the United States. Its sad.
I'm talking about the former. And it would absolutely help with populist politics and partisanship.
People have minds of their own. It's literally why we have a democracy. If we educate people to be better involved with out political mechanism it will absolutely benefit us as a society. Even being completely pessimistic, it certainly wouldn't hurt.
Yes, you'll still have people that vote a certain way because "that's what mom and dad did" but it would also go a long way to let people think critically about how their personal beliefs and experiences align with certain political parties or movements.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
Us vs Them in a universe where we don't think we can provide education to combat ignorance and inaction leads to bad things.
1. Political civil war - Undo everything the other guy did.
2. Oppression - Do everything possible to gain and keep power forever to enact your sides "will"
3. Actual civil war - violent outbursts and physical violence between people with different political views
I believe in the short term we're going to get #1 with hints of #2 but I don't think it's a lost cause, especially here.
I think the 2019 election will be the telltale sign. Do we keep some measure of progressive/moderate government or do we run to the "safety" of the cons.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
People who ally with Neo-Nazis are Nazi sympathizers. If they don't want to be considered Nazi sympathizers then they should do their best to repudiate Neo-Nazis. Conservative politics is not necessarily Neo-Nazi adjacent, but plenty of Conservative politicians/political parties seem indifferent or apathetic to the association.
Who are we talking about, though? Like, there's millions of people you don't know, and haven't heard say they're not Nazis. Do you believe they're all Nazis until they say they're not?
I don't know about the Sons of Odin, but the Soldiers of Odin are a known white supremacy group that tries to keep up a thin veneer of 'we're totally just a local neighbourhood watchdog type set! Nope, no racist motivators at all!', but it took very little reading of their public Facebook chatter to cast that aside. Like, one guy getting a little too on the nose and being reminded by others about the need to keep up the charade in public.
They used to have a meeting ground near where I live (yay) but it seems the Toronto chapter had some falling out or another? I only caught some fragments of the drama that apparently happened, but I haven't seen them around in a while, so that's a net good in my books.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
I mean, are you talking literally about how the government works and how voting affects the government? Or are you also including critical thinking, information checking and fact finding?
Because if you're just talking about how government works and voting, that doesn't fix anything about populism and partisanship.
If you're also including critical thinking, then you've just stepped into a minefield. Because one side's critical thinking is another side's indoctrination.
I've seen "critical thinking" turn into a partisan issue in the United States. Its sad.
I'm talking about the former. And it would absolutely help with populist politics and partisanship.
People have minds of their own. It's literally why we have a democracy. If we educate people to be better involved with out political mechanism it will absolutely benefit us as a society. Even being completely pessimistic, it certainly wouldn't hurt.
Yes, you'll still have people that vote a certain way because "that's what mom and dad did" but it would also go a long way to let people think critically about how their personal beliefs and experiences align with certain political parties or movements.
One, I don't see how teaching kids how the government and political process in school works to make them more engaged in the political process. Like, there is a step here that is missing for me.
Two, you're going to teach people about what political parties and movements believe? That is the kind of information I was talking about earlier, that will be tainted by partisan bias.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
They are rallying against those to some extent. It's just those issues are less politically charged. It's difficult to make math partisan (although how you teach math does have some tangentially political fights going on in it).
But how the political system works? Social science? Critical thinking? These things are all HIGHLY political. People fight over who gets to say what about them.
Again, look at the sex ed curriculum in Ontario as an easy example of what happens. Education is inherently political because it is, as your idea here presumes, a part of shaping political culture.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
People who ally with Neo-Nazis are Nazi sympathizers. If they don't want to be considered Nazi sympathizers then they should do their best to repudiate Neo-Nazis. Conservative politics is not necessarily Neo-Nazi adjacent, but plenty of Conservative politicians/political parties seem indifferent or apathetic to the association.
Who are we talking about, though? Like, there's millions of people you don't know, and haven't heard say they're not Nazis. Do you believe they're all Nazis until they say they're not?
I don't know about the Sons of Odin, but the Soldiers of Odin are a known white supremacy group that tries to keep up a thin veneer of 'we're totally just a local neighbourhood watchdog type set! Nope, no racist motivators at all!', but it took very little reading of their public Facebook chatter to cast that aside. Like, one guy getting a little too on the nose and being reminded by others about the need to keep up the charade in public.
They used to have a meeting ground near where I live (yay) but it seems the Toronto chapter had some falling out or another? I only caught some fragments of the drama that apparently happened, but I haven't seen them around in a while, so that's a net good in my books.
Okay, if the people we're saying are Nazis until they say they're not, are people who espoused Nazi ideology, then sure.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
I mean, it's a pretty low bar to clear... to publicly disavow ties to white supremacy groups... and not have publicity shots taken with them.
Sure, if it's some random guy or gal on the street it's one thing. I'm not a fan of the whole 'GOTCHA! The person you took a pic with is actually HITLER REBORN! Now you are smeared!' style shit, but if one is getting publicity shots done, it's usually a good idea to find out who they're being done with.
Is there further information about this whole wild rose/soldiers(?) of Odin thing?
I just wanted to note that the SoO are a known factor. It's not like getting a pic with random folks or finding out that the boy scout troop they did a photo op with actually burned a cross on someone's lawn last year...
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
Spoiler - the 'somehow' is through education.
Ok, how do you educate the adults that are voting age right now? That is the more immediate concern.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
They are rallying against those to some extent. It's just those issues are less politically charged. It's difficult to make math partisan (although how you teach math does have some tangentially political fights going on in it).
But how the political system works? Social science? Critical thinking? These things are all HIGHLY political. People fight over who gets to say what about them.
Again, look at the sex ed curriculum in Ontario as an easy example of what happens. Education is inherently political because it is, as your idea here presumes, a part of shaping political culture.
I would argue that the fight over how math is taught is not tangentially political at all.
Educators, scientists, experts, anyone who knows what they're talking about will say that a focus on comprehension and problem-solving has better results than just teaching rote memorization or a single algorithmic approach. The push against that comes from a general conservative devaluing of science and education, along with a healthy dose of conservative "things used to be better back in my day and we should go back to that". It's part of the bigger process of trying to remove fact-based and evidence-based education and replace it with traditionalist appeals.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
People who ally with Neo-Nazis are Nazi sympathizers. If they don't want to be considered Nazi sympathizers then they should do their best to repudiate Neo-Nazis. Conservative politics is not necessarily Neo-Nazi adjacent, but plenty of Conservative politicians/political parties seem indifferent or apathetic to the association.
Who are we talking about, though? Like, there's millions of people you don't know, and haven't heard say they're not Nazis. Do you believe they're all Nazis until they say they're not?
I don't know about the Sons of Odin, but the Soldiers of Odin are a known white supremacy group that tries to keep up a thin veneer of 'we're totally just a local neighbourhood watchdog type set! Nope, no racist motivators at all!', but it took very little reading of their public Facebook chatter to cast that aside. Like, one guy getting a little too on the nose and being reminded by others about the need to keep up the charade in public.
They used to have a meeting ground near where I live (yay) but it seems the Toronto chapter had some falling out or another? I only caught some fragments of the drama that apparently happened, but I haven't seen them around in a while, so that's a net good in my books.
That's a common tactic of all of these groups. They're big on local charity as a means to drive PR while promoting super ugly povs on anything wrt to race, religion, or gender. They all suck. They also have very little to sway in politics and aren't super germane to this conversation anyway.
I believe the Soldiers of Odin are an offshoot of the Sons of Odin. After the recent internal political strife they since broke off into smaller groups like The Northern Guard. They all still promote the same garbage stuff and should be mocked and laughed at any chance you get.
I swear to god, the Canadian politics thread is always like taking a time-machine 3 years ago in US politics.
We have giant, hi-vis-orange-coloured proof in the US that conservatives are completely fine with all of the alt-right's lunacy. And they'll let their policy decisions be led by the alt-right. And they'll start slowly taking more and more alt-right positions, as they dig themselves further and further into the alt-right hole.
For christ's sake, they're selling kidnapped children to new families, and just put a criminal rapist on the supreme court so he can protect the criminal rapist president.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
Spoiler - the 'somehow' is through education.
Ok, how do you educate the adults that are voting age right now? That is the more immediate concern.
I'm not sure. Regardless it's outside of the scope of what we're talking about.
Per your other point, people are ridiculously intimidated by the political process. Educating people on said process removes a lot of that fear and as such would encourage more people to take part. Everybody? Never. More? I'd bet my house on it.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
Spoiler - the 'somehow' is through education.
Ok, how do you educate the adults that are voting age right now? That is the more immediate concern.
I'm not sure. Regardless it's outside of the scope of what we're talking about.
Per your other point, people are ridiculously intimidated by the political process. Educating people on said process removes a lot of that fear and as such would encourage more people to take part. Everybody? Never. More? I'd bet my house on it.
Why do you think they do not participate out of fear? I have never seen that point of view expressed. Usually its something about not being able to take the time to vote, or feeling like their choice doesn't matter.
Do you have any literature on that I can read?
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I swear to god, the Canadian politics thread is always like taking a time-machine 3 years ago in US politics.
We have giant, hi-vis-orange-coloured proof in the US that conservatives are completely fine with all of the alt-right's lunacy. And they'll let their policy decisions be led by the alt-right. And they'll start slowly taking more and more alt-right positions, as they dig themselves further and further into the alt-right hole.
For christ's sake, they're selling kidnapped children to new families, and just put a criminal rapist on the supreme court so he can protect the criminal rapist president.
I've been saying this for ages. Stephen Harper is just our GWB, like 5 years behind. If we aren't careful, our younger charismatic centre-left politician who is despised on a visceral level by the right just for existing will be followed by a far-right-wing populist. Because the conservative parties of Canada sure as fuck ain't getting any less extreme.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
They are rallying against those to some extent. It's just those issues are less politically charged. It's difficult to make math partisan (although how you teach math does have some tangentially political fights going on in it).
But how the political system works? Social science? Critical thinking? These things are all HIGHLY political. People fight over who gets to say what about them.
Again, look at the sex ed curriculum in Ontario as an easy example of what happens. Education is inherently political because it is, as your idea here presumes, a part of shaping political culture.
I would argue that the fight over how math is taught is not tangentially political at all.
Educators, scientists, experts, anyone who knows what they're talking about will say that a focus on comprehension and problem-solving has better results than just teaching rote memorization or a single algorithmic approach. The push against that comes from a general conservative devaluing of science and education, along with a healthy dose of conservative "things used to be better back in my day and we should go back to that". It's part of the bigger process of trying to remove fact-based and evidence-based education and replace it with traditionalist appeals.
This is a good point. The divide is fundamentally an epistemological one (how do we know anything, who do we trust for information, how do we process information), so all aspects of education are targets for politics.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
No dude, anyone who associates with and uses far-right extremism, fascism and such is one of them.
What we should do about it is actually engage with reality and realise that the right is not going to get better and that they have on interest in the maintenance of a fair and stable political system, but rather only in winning.
Like, fuck, have we all forgotten the Harper years already? You think they've reformed since then? Have we forgotten Doug Ford so quickly? They've only gotten bolder.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
Christ. This is such a bad take that I need to go take a nap.
Who gives a shit about nuance right? If one group agrees with a component from another group it does not mean they're the same thing. How do you explain issues where liberals and cons were on the same page? Are they then the same party? How do you reconcile that with your conclusions? Or does it only apply to the conservatives?
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
What do you suggest then? Because frankly, if they're on the same page as the Sons of Odin they are my enemy. They preach hate and division and we're just supposed to meekly try to build bridges with hateful bigots?
Posts
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
@hawkbox I'm sorry, but I don't know what that has to do with my original point.
Remember, the last time we had a Conservative PM, he made an official address to the nation with the purpose of lying about how part of our democratic process works (calling a potential coalition government by the opposition parties an 'undemocratic coup'). I know there are conservatives in this country who would be onboard with actual proper education on our democratic system. I feel though that there would still be enough opposition to the idea to stop it from happening.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
People who ally with Neo-Nazis are Nazi sympathizers. If they don't want to be considered Nazi sympathizers then they should do their best to repudiate Neo-Nazis. Conservative politics is not necessarily Neo-Nazi adjacent, but plenty of Conservative politicians/political parties seem indifferent or apathetic to the association.
So why aren't opposition parties rallying against say...math, or social studies, or geography? The mental gymnastics here making the political process a partisan issue when everything else is apparently politically agnostic is strange to me. All parties participate in the political process. It, in and of itself, is a completely neutral topic for education.
If "our political views" is defined as "not being Nazi's", then yes, anyone who doesn't line up with that is the enemy.
And anyone who wants to use their political power to enact the policy positions of Nazis is, for all intents and purposes, a nazi as well.
What's the old German joke/saying? If there's 10 people at a table talking with one Nazi, there's 11 Nazis at a table.
I mean, are you talking literally about how the government works and how voting affects the government? Or are you also including critical thinking, information checking and fact finding?
Because if you're just talking about how government works and voting, that doesn't fix anything about populism and partisanship.
If you're also including critical thinking, then you've just stepped into a minefield. Because one side's critical thinking is another side's indoctrination.
I've seen "critical thinking" turn into a partisan issue in the United States. Its sad.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Who are we talking about, though? Like, there's millions of people you don't know, and haven't heard say they're not Nazis. Do you believe they're all Nazis until they say they're not?
Ok, we've gone beyond the pale of nuts here. What does this have to do with anything being discussed here?
Or are you literally saying there is no longer any grounds for discourse and if you don't identify as a leftist you're officially a nazi? Because that's some straight up crazy bullshit if so.
That's not what was being talked about, though. Don't move the goalposts.
This is what started this tangent:
Emphasis mine.
No where does it talk about being or not being Nazis. Just being on the right.
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I'm talking about the former. And it would absolutely help with populist politics and partisanship.
People have minds of their own. It's literally why we have a democracy. If we educate people to be better involved with out political mechanism it will absolutely benefit us as a society. Even being completely pessimistic, it certainly wouldn't hurt.
Yes, you'll still have people that vote a certain way because "that's what mom and dad did" but it would also go a long way to let people think critically about how their personal beliefs and experiences align with certain political parties or movements.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
Spoiler - the 'somehow' is through education.
1. Political civil war - Undo everything the other guy did.
2. Oppression - Do everything possible to gain and keep power forever to enact your sides "will"
3. Actual civil war - violent outbursts and physical violence between people with different political views
I believe in the short term we're going to get #1 with hints of #2 but I don't think it's a lost cause, especially here.
I think the 2019 election will be the telltale sign. Do we keep some measure of progressive/moderate government or do we run to the "safety" of the cons.
My money is on red.
I don't know about the Sons of Odin, but the Soldiers of Odin are a known white supremacy group that tries to keep up a thin veneer of 'we're totally just a local neighbourhood watchdog type set! Nope, no racist motivators at all!', but it took very little reading of their public Facebook chatter to cast that aside. Like, one guy getting a little too on the nose and being reminded by others about the need to keep up the charade in public.
They used to have a meeting ground near where I live (yay) but it seems the Toronto chapter had some falling out or another? I only caught some fragments of the drama that apparently happened, but I haven't seen them around in a while, so that's a net good in my books.
One, I don't see how teaching kids how the government and political process in school works to make them more engaged in the political process. Like, there is a step here that is missing for me.
Two, you're going to teach people about what political parties and movements believe? That is the kind of information I was talking about earlier, that will be tainted by partisan bias.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
They are rallying against those to some extent. It's just those issues are less politically charged. It's difficult to make math partisan (although how you teach math does have some tangentially political fights going on in it).
But how the political system works? Social science? Critical thinking? These things are all HIGHLY political. People fight over who gets to say what about them.
Again, look at the sex ed curriculum in Ontario as an easy example of what happens. Education is inherently political because it is, as your idea here presumes, a part of shaping political culture.
Okay, if the people we're saying are Nazis until they say they're not, are people who espoused Nazi ideology, then sure.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Sure, if it's some random guy or gal on the street it's one thing. I'm not a fan of the whole 'GOTCHA! The person you took a pic with is actually HITLER REBORN! Now you are smeared!' style shit, but if one is getting publicity shots done, it's usually a good idea to find out who they're being done with.
Is there further information about this whole wild rose/soldiers(?) of Odin thing?
I just wanted to note that the SoO are a known factor. It's not like getting a pic with random folks or finding out that the boy scout troop they did a photo op with actually burned a cross on someone's lawn last year...
Ok, how do you educate the adults that are voting age right now? That is the more immediate concern.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I would argue that the fight over how math is taught is not tangentially political at all.
Educators, scientists, experts, anyone who knows what they're talking about will say that a focus on comprehension and problem-solving has better results than just teaching rote memorization or a single algorithmic approach. The push against that comes from a general conservative devaluing of science and education, along with a healthy dose of conservative "things used to be better back in my day and we should go back to that". It's part of the bigger process of trying to remove fact-based and evidence-based education and replace it with traditionalist appeals.
That's a common tactic of all of these groups. They're big on local charity as a means to drive PR while promoting super ugly povs on anything wrt to race, religion, or gender. They all suck. They also have very little to sway in politics and aren't super germane to this conversation anyway.
I believe the Soldiers of Odin are an offshoot of the Sons of Odin. After the recent internal political strife they since broke off into smaller groups like The Northern Guard. They all still promote the same garbage stuff and should be mocked and laughed at any chance you get.
We have giant, hi-vis-orange-coloured proof in the US that conservatives are completely fine with all of the alt-right's lunacy. And they'll let their policy decisions be led by the alt-right. And they'll start slowly taking more and more alt-right positions, as they dig themselves further and further into the alt-right hole.
For christ's sake, they're selling kidnapped children to new families, and just put a criminal rapist on the supreme court so he can protect the criminal rapist president.
I'm not sure. Regardless it's outside of the scope of what we're talking about.
Per your other point, people are ridiculously intimidated by the political process. Educating people on said process removes a lot of that fear and as such would encourage more people to take part. Everybody? Never. More? I'd bet my house on it.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
WHAT do you want to do with that?
Why do you think they do not participate out of fear? I have never seen that point of view expressed. Usually its something about not being able to take the time to vote, or feeling like their choice doesn't matter.
Do you have any literature on that I can read?
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I've been saying this for ages. Stephen Harper is just our GWB, like 5 years behind. If we aren't careful, our younger charismatic centre-left politician who is despised on a visceral level by the right just for existing will be followed by a far-right-wing populist. Because the conservative parties of Canada sure as fuck ain't getting any less extreme.
This is a good point. The divide is fundamentally an epistemological one (how do we know anything, who do we trust for information, how do we process information), so all aspects of education are targets for politics.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
No dude, anyone who associates with and uses far-right extremism, fascism and such is one of them.
What we should do about it is actually engage with reality and realise that the right is not going to get better and that they have on interest in the maintenance of a fair and stable political system, but rather only in winning.
Like, fuck, have we all forgotten the Harper years already? You think they've reformed since then? Have we forgotten Doug Ford so quickly? They've only gotten bolder.
Christ. This is such a bad take that I need to go take a nap.
Who gives a shit about nuance right? If one group agrees with a component from another group it does not mean they're the same thing. How do you explain issues where liberals and cons were on the same page? Are they then the same party? How do you reconcile that with your conclusions? Or does it only apply to the conservatives?
What do you suggest then? Because frankly, if they're on the same page as the Sons of Odin they are my enemy. They preach hate and division and we're just supposed to meekly try to build bridges with hateful bigots?