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LGBT protections and rights

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    AP reporter:

    He is going to let more actively bigoted people in government be more actively bigoted while he pretends to care. This is his bog standard response to being asked about things he doesn't care about.

    Couscous on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    A more pressing question constitutionally would be what do you do about trans people who have already had that stuff changed? Your gender doesn't have a fucking asterisk.

    Hmm. So I think that this part is super duper double complicated.

    Like, I had my birth cert changed. It's an NYC cert and they have great rules; when it's changed for gender reasons they consider it original after the correction. So there's nothing indicating that the cert was ever heavily modified.

    But other jurisdictions are totally different, and I've helped others change their info before, so it does sometimes say there is a corrected version.

    But we already know that this policy wasn't thought out in any realistic way.

    Exactly. That's why if they try to implement this, it might go to SCOTUS

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See my post above about how businesses and a state like Indiana responded to those types of discriminatory laws

    I feel like the GOP and the fundie parts of their base might try this shit, but I don’t think the rest of the country is going to go along with them.

    We’re probably mostly in agreement, Viskod, I just have a lot of faith in our people that they won’t let the GOP get away with this.

    There are a bunch of reasons why this is going to face lawsuits from day one, and there may not actually be a 5 SCOTUS justice majority.

    That's not even getting to the part where saying they are going to do some bastard thing does not mean they are actually going to accomplish said thing.

    Evil takes work

    I think that Lesbian and Gay marriage etc is safe, BUT, I do worry that transgender rights is in a more fragile state. Hell, its a more complex state of affairs to start with because there are real concerns in relation to biological gender which there aren't in relation to being gay or straight. None of these concerns actually add up to say "Transgender people should not be allowed to express the outwards gender which is right for them and be treated as such", but you can throw real issues into the mix like "If your drivers license says you are a woman, but you are biologically male, won't that be dangerous if you go into surgery at a hospital after a car accident?" and so on. Or, "If you are being patted down at the airport for security, you can request someone of the same gender to do the patdown. What do we do about transgender TSA agents?"

    Things like this are actually real things which should be sorted out in a real discussion but they will blunt the outcry from the business community.

    Oh, I don't trust any of these fuckers on anything. But the specific issue they've picked here is essentially birth certificates and IDs, which are both state run. This specific policy decision runs into enough interstate law questions that it has to go to SCOTUS (if it is implemented), and the outcome is in doubt, even with Kavanaugh on the court.

    The next thing they try could be more heinous, I'm just saying for this one, it was an illconsidered primal scream of stupid bigotry. Which obviously, for this admin.

    Also, the answers to your questions are only actually bad faith questions for bigots, and fuck them.
    Passports aren't state run though!

    The other thing I forgot to say is that Passports collect information based on Birth Certificates and the like, so the tension is still there.

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    So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Someone asked what politicians are saying. Here's my Senator.



    My governor



    What's your rep saying? If it's nothing, maybe write them and demand a response and action.

    So It Goes on
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    DacDac Registered User regular
    If you think "oh, don't worry about X, they would never do X because it would be so unpopular" then you haven't been paying attention to the last two years.

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    If you think "oh, don't worry about X, they would never do X because it would be so unpopular" then you haven't been paying attention to the last two years.

    Alternately, if you think trump has any grasp of subtlety or nuance so that he can pull this off in a way that actually makes people who aren't utter morons happy...

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Dac wrote: »
    If you think "oh, don't worry about X, they would never do X because it would be so unpopular" then you haven't been paying attention to the last two years.

    Alternately, if you think trump has any grasp of subtlety or nuance so that he can pull this off in a way that actually makes people who aren't utter morons happy...

    Doesn't matter if he upsets people if it becomes new established law. The damage is done.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    If you think "oh, don't worry about X, they would never do X because it would be so unpopular" then you haven't been paying attention to the last two years.
    That line of thinking also demonstrates belonging to a group of people who aren't affected by shit like this. That, or you're somehow isolated & protected enough (like through wealth) to not feel the impact.

    Even with just the announcement of this, there is damage done. Even if the administration doesn't follow through, the damage is done. Bigots across the country have been signaled by the government that continuing to be bigots is acceptable now.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    If you think "oh, don't worry about X, they would never do X because it would be so unpopular" then you haven't been paying attention to the last two years.

    It's not that it would be unpopular, it's just there's no way this isn't going to court.

    So I am worried about it, and angry about it. Because eventually he got his fucking Muslim Ban. It's just that by the time it gets through, we may have a new president.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    I will be amazingly sad if there is a 5-4 decision pretending to be based on an originalist interpretation of the Constitution and totally not bigotry.

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    ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Couscous wrote: »
    I will be amazingly sad if there is a 5-4 decision pretending to be based on an originalist interpretation of the Constitution and totally not bigotry.

    Every decision on trans stuff is frustrating, because the textualist reading of almost any nondiscrimination law includes trans people implicitly when it includes discrimination based on sex. Textualists seem to be basically universally averse to this narrow reading of the text, though :rotate:

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    I will be amazingly sad if there is a 5-4 decision pretending to be based on an originalist interpretation of the Constitution and totally not bigotry.

    Every decision on trans stuff is frustrating, because the textualist reading of almost any nondiscrimination law includes trans people implicitly when it includes discrimination based on sex. Textualists seem to be basically universally averse to this narrow reading of the text, though :rotate:

    Textualists are actually Calvinballists in most cases.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    My reps are backing Trump because I live in TN but it's cool cause I'm going to early vote tomorrow if I'm over this stomach bug and at least try to change that.

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    I will be amazingly sad if there is a 5-4 decision pretending to be based on an originalist interpretation of the Constitution and totally not bigotry.

    Every decision on trans stuff is frustrating, because the textualist reading of almost any nondiscrimination law includes trans people implicitly when it includes discrimination based on sex. Textualists seem to be basically universally averse to this narrow reading of the text, though :rotate:

    Textualists are actually Calvinballists in most cases.

    According to this dictionary that I helped author...

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    LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
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    LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    This is also part of the "machismo" part of fascism, controlling women, and a backup method of demonizing someone who doesn't fit under any other minority category.

    It's probably worth noting that one of the early acts of the Nazis was to burn down the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, which had pioneered a lot of sex and gender research in the early 20th century, particularly involving transgender people.

    That research, as you can imagine, has been literally lost to the flames.


    And then, you know, they started tossing gay people and trans folks into the camps as well.

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    basic humanbasic human Registered User regular
    Should we consider someone a bigot if they support trans rights, but would never be in a relationship or even find a trans person attractive or as a valid mate simply because they are trans?

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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Should we consider someone a bigot if they support trans rights, but would never be in a relationship or even find a trans person attractive or as a valid mate simply because they are trans?

    No one gives a shit who you find attractive, go away.

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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Should we consider someone a bigot if they support trans rights, but would never be in a relationship or even find a trans person attractive or as a valid mate simply because they are trans?

    Why the heck does that matter when Republicans are oppressing trans people and trying to define them out of existence?

    Are you trying for a “AHA! It is YOU who is the true bigot argument?”

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Should we consider someone a bigot if they support trans rights, but would never be in a relationship or even find a trans person attractive or as a valid mate simply because they are trans?

    You are in a relationship with an individual, not a population group. Strom Thurmond fathered a daughter with a black woman, but he was still Strom Thurmond.

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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    The longer Trump remains in power, more darkly humorous (and depressing, and infuriating) all the "it's not the end of the world" type of downplaying of him becomming the president gets.

    Yes, it could have been worse, and it has gotten worse everyday since.
    And it will keep getting worse until there is a congress willing to stop him.

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    HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Should we consider someone a bigot if they support trans rights, but would never be in a relationship or even find a trans person attractive or as a valid mate simply because they are trans?

    No more than a straight person who supports gay marriage. Or a gay person who supports straight marriage. Or a white person who supports BLM. Or a man who supports equal pay. Or a gay man who supports womens' suffrage. Or a teetotaler who supports legalization. I could make this post very, very long. One need not have sex with somebody to understand their right to equal treatment under the law.

    Edit: History would seem to suggest it's actual an impediment!

    Hevach on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    The longer Trump remains in power, more darkly humorous (and depressing, and infuriating) all the "it's not the end of the world" type of downplaying of him becomming the president gets.

    Yes, it could have been worse, and it has gotten worse everyday since.
    And it will keep getting worse until there is a congress willing to stop him.

    Even just looking at fairly recent history, Reagan didn't need to send gay people to literal death camps to do as little as possible about the AIDS crisis and get a lot of people killed as a result.

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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Couscous wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    The longer Trump remains in power, more darkly humorous (and depressing, and infuriating) all the "it's not the end of the world" type of downplaying of him becomming the president gets.

    Yes, it could have been worse, and it has gotten worse everyday since.
    And it will keep getting worse until there is a congress willing to stop him.

    Even just looking at fairly recent history, Reagan didn't need to send gay people to literal death camps to do as little as possible about the AIDS crisis and get a lot of people killed as a result.
    And there are now concentration camps, for children, stolen from their parents...
    I'm expecting re education camps anyday now.

    Nyysjan on
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    Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    The longer Trump remains in power, more darkly humorous (and depressing, and infuriating) all the "it's not the end of the world" type of downplaying of him becomming the president gets.

    Yes, it could have been worse, and it has gotten worse everyday since.
    And it will keep getting worse until there is a congress willing to stop him.

    Even just looking at fairly recent history, Reagan didn't need to send gay people to literal death camps to do as little as possible about the AIDS crisis and get a lot of people killed as a result.
    And there are now concentration camps, for children, stolen from their parents...
    I'm expecting re education camps anyday now.

    That would be too close to Federal control of education.

    Best to sell the children to a bunch of fundamentalist families calling it adoption and let them be brainwashed under the guise of church approved home school.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    The longer Trump remains in power, more darkly humorous (and depressing, and infuriating) all the "it's not the end of the world" type of downplaying of him becomming the president gets.

    Yes, it could have been worse, and it has gotten worse everyday since.
    And it will keep getting worse until there is a congress willing to stop him.

    Even just looking at fairly recent history, Reagan didn't need to send gay people to literal death camps to do as little as possible about the AIDS crisis and get a lot of people killed as a result.
    And there are now concentration camps, for children, stolen from their parents...
    I'm expecting re education camps anyday now.

    That would be too close to Federal control of education.

    Best to sell the children to a bunch of fundamentalist families calling it adoption and let them be brainwashed under the guise of church approved home school.

    They can also decide to support adoption agencies that refuse to place children with non-Protestant families and gay families.

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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    The longer Trump remains in power, more darkly humorous (and depressing, and infuriating) all the "it's not the end of the world" type of downplaying of him becomming the president gets.

    Yes, it could have been worse, and it has gotten worse everyday since.
    And it will keep getting worse until there is a congress willing to stop him.

    Even just looking at fairly recent history, Reagan didn't need to send gay people to literal death camps to do as little as possible about the AIDS crisis and get a lot of people killed as a result.
    And there are now concentration camps, for children, stolen from their parents...
    I'm expecting re education camps anyday now.

    That would be too close to Federal control of education.

    Best to sell the children to a bunch of fundamentalist families calling it adoption and let them be brainwashed under the guise of church approved home school.
    I was thinking of re education camps for gays (those kinda laready exist, just in smaller scale), no need for federal government to run them, i'm sure there are plenty of good upstanding christian churches ready and willing to do what is necessary, as long as they are given permission.
    The kids, i'm nowhere near optimistic enough to think they'd be given to any families, at all.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »

    This is a pretty silly take. Making things easier to administer is just a bullshit excuse they are throwing out to justify why they want to discriminate against trans people. And that's mostly because gays are harder to go after these days, so trans people are the new easy target. It does not go beyond that.

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »

    This is a pretty silly take. Making things easier to administer is just a bullshit excuse they are throwing out to justify why they want to discriminate against trans people. And that's mostly because gays are harder to go after these days, so trans people are the new easy target. It does not go beyond that.

    Indeed, the only slight point she could be making is that the style of assault they have chosen is shaped to cut off transgender people from their LGB allies and allow them to be assaulted alone.

    I mean, I guess and there's a point to be made that there literally are more than 2 combinations of sex chromosomes. XXY exists as does XYY and I think even single X. There are people with XY chromosomes but their genitalia look female and so on. You just quite simply can't shove humans in two 'biological gender' boxes with a simple test because you'll need at least 3 boxes.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Our best hope at the Supreme Court level is Roberts again knowing the writing will be on the wall sooner rather than later on trans acceptance and not wanting this to be his legacy.

    The man has abominable views but it does seem at his core he believes in dog whistling rather then doing his evil in the open.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    The easiest way to administrate gender is to not care outside of just asking people to state their gender.

    Couscous on
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    VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    The easiest way to administrate gender is to not care outside of just asking people to state their gender.

    Maybe they thought that a survey that asked if you were Male, Female, or Other would have made there Othering a little too obvious?

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    MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I was thinking of re education camps for gays (those kinda laready exist, just in smaller scale), no need for federal government to run them, i'm sure there are plenty of good upstanding christian churches ready and willing to do what is necessary, as long as they are given permission.
    The kids, i'm nowhere near optimistic enough to think they'd be given to any families, at all.

    "Gay conversion" camps, where parents pay tens of thousands to send away their LGBT kids to be raped and tortured to 'cure' them in the name of trickle-down Jesus. Legal in most states in the US and Mike Pence is a supporter of them. Just like the ICE child internment camps and the evangelical adoption agencies they'd get massive government funding if the Dominionists could figure out how to get their way on it.

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Oh and if any non LGBT people are here going: that sucks but at least it's not aimed at me.. surprise!

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/10/first-wanted-discriminate-gay-lesbian-parents-now-jewish-parents/
    Meanwhile, Miracle Hill is discriminating with impunity. Beth Lesser, a Jewish parent with 18 years of experience fostering children, was told that not only that she couldn’t foster children from Miracle Hill but she couldn’t even serve as a mentor.

    “I’ve never felt that sort of discrimination before,” Lesser told The Intercept. Miracle Hill is also using the foster care system to program children, she said.

    “What Miracle Hill does, is they scoop up these kids from foster care, and they have these group homes. And then once they get the kids in there, their whole objective is to indoctrinate them into their brand of Christianity,” Lesser said.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Oh and if any non LGBT people are here going: that sucks but at least it's not aimed at me.. surprise!

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/10/first-wanted-discriminate-gay-lesbian-parents-now-jewish-parents/
    Meanwhile, Miracle Hill is discriminating with impunity. Beth Lesser, a Jewish parent with 18 years of experience fostering children, was told that not only that she couldn’t foster children from Miracle Hill but she couldn’t even serve as a mentor.

    “I’ve never felt that sort of discrimination before,” Lesser told The Intercept. Miracle Hill is also using the foster care system to program children, she said.

    “What Miracle Hill does, is they scoop up these kids from foster care, and they have these group homes. And then once they get the kids in there, their whole objective is to indoctrinate them into their brand of Christianity,” Lesser said.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/10/19/south-carolina-foster-parent-discrimination-miracle-hill-ministries/
    “I think that if Trump knew about this in detail, he wouldn’t be for it,” Lesser said. “Because he’s not a religious nut.” She’s a proud supporter of the president — and, she offered, she wanted Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh to be confirmed.
    She’s a proud supporter of the president

    "I never thought these lions would eat my face!"

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Oh and if any non LGBT people are here going: that sucks but at least it's not aimed at me.. surprise!

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/10/first-wanted-discriminate-gay-lesbian-parents-now-jewish-parents/
    Meanwhile, Miracle Hill is discriminating with impunity. Beth Lesser, a Jewish parent with 18 years of experience fostering children, was told that not only that she couldn’t foster children from Miracle Hill but she couldn’t even serve as a mentor.

    “I’ve never felt that sort of discrimination before,” Lesser told The Intercept. Miracle Hill is also using the foster care system to program children, she said.

    “What Miracle Hill does, is they scoop up these kids from foster care, and they have these group homes. And then once they get the kids in there, their whole objective is to indoctrinate them into their brand of Christianity,” Lesser said.

    Shows what you know, I'm not an orphan either!

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Oh and if any non LGBT people are here going: that sucks but at least it's not aimed at me.. surprise!

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/10/first-wanted-discriminate-gay-lesbian-parents-now-jewish-parents/
    Meanwhile, Miracle Hill is discriminating with impunity. Beth Lesser, a Jewish parent with 18 years of experience fostering children, was told that not only that she couldn’t foster children from Miracle Hill but she couldn’t even serve as a mentor.

    “I’ve never felt that sort of discrimination before,” Lesser told The Intercept. Miracle Hill is also using the foster care system to program children, she said.

    “What Miracle Hill does, is they scoop up these kids from foster care, and they have these group homes. And then once they get the kids in there, their whole objective is to indoctrinate them into their brand of Christianity,” Lesser said.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/10/19/south-carolina-foster-parent-discrimination-miracle-hill-ministries/
    “I think that if Trump knew about this in detail, he wouldn’t be for it,” Lesser said. “Because he’s not a religious nut.” She’s a proud supporter of the president — and, she offered, she wanted Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh to be confirmed.
    She’s a proud supporter of the president

    "I never thought these lions would eat my face!"

    It's just as dumb every time I hear people say that...

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Oh and if any non LGBT people are here going: that sucks but at least it's not aimed at me.. surprise!

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/10/first-wanted-discriminate-gay-lesbian-parents-now-jewish-parents/
    Meanwhile, Miracle Hill is discriminating with impunity. Beth Lesser, a Jewish parent with 18 years of experience fostering children, was told that not only that she couldn’t foster children from Miracle Hill but she couldn’t even serve as a mentor.

    “I’ve never felt that sort of discrimination before,” Lesser told The Intercept. Miracle Hill is also using the foster care system to program children, she said.

    “What Miracle Hill does, is they scoop up these kids from foster care, and they have these group homes. And then once they get the kids in there, their whole objective is to indoctrinate them into their brand of Christianity,” Lesser said.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/10/19/south-carolina-foster-parent-discrimination-miracle-hill-ministries/
    “I think that if Trump knew about this in detail, he wouldn’t be for it,” Lesser said. “Because he’s not a religious nut.” She’s a proud supporter of the president — and, she offered, she wanted Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh to be confirmed.
    She’s a proud supporter of the president

    "I never thought these lions would eat my face!"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45834417

    "Mexican man refuses to give up lions on his terrace"

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    AlexandierAlexandier Registered User regular
    I did the bare minimum and voted Yes in MA on Q3 to keep the existing bathroom rights law. I don't think it's in danger of failing but fuck this society for even asking to repeal it.

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    π = 3

    Non-elliptical circles are now illegal.

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