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US Government Shutdown 2018/2019 - read mod post on pg 23

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Posts

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    kaid wrote: »
    Seal wrote: »
    A fresh big mac can be decent, but McDonalds food does not do well after its been sitting around for more than 20 minutes. A room temperature big mac oh boy!

    Pretty much this. I like fast food more than is good for me but its all gross if you let it sit long enough to get cold. The whole thing about fast food is you buy it and eat it immediately.

    Burger joints don't tend to deliver for this reason.

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  • PellaeonPellaeon Registered User regular
    Pellaeon wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    OremLK wrote: »
    Just boggles my mind that Trump is so willing to die on this hill. There are numbers indicating this is even hurting him with his base now, and that will only get worse the longer this drags on. It's an entirely self-inflicted wound. But then, nobody ever accused him of being a rational Q actor.

    Graham already painted him into a corner with the "wall or bust" statement he put out saying that if Trump backs down over this issue this time that his Presidency is effectively over.

    I fail to see the issue here.

    Trump will pick "wall" at all costs. Mainly because he doesn't have to pay.

    Sorry, was too glib early in the morning.

    While I'm sure it would hurt his feelings to have his presidency (such as it is) over, I don't see a downside for the rest of us.

    i.e. yes please Mr Graham, let's end this farce plzkthx

  • Snake GandhiSnake Gandhi Des Moines, IARegistered User regular
    Do we even need to change the law to stop shutdowns? As I understand it the whole concept of a shutdown came about because Jimmy Carter’s Attourney General interpreted things a certain way.

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    It would be so easy to go on twitter and say that he won, tell Mitch he'll sign the stupid bill, then go on twitter and say "I'm the most wall than evry presedent!"

    Problem solved.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Do we even need to change the law to stop shutdowns? As I understand it the whole concept of a shutdown came about because Jimmy Carter’s Attourney General interpreted things a certain way.

    Reagan's AG. This was done as part of the breaking of the Air Traffic Controller's union. He was looking for reasons to not pay them in order to get around contract negotiations. If congress didn't pass a budget, then he didn't have to pay them. The side effect is that now we have our current situation.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Do we even need to change the law to stop shutdowns? As I understand it the whole concept of a shutdown came about because Jimmy Carter’s Attourney General interpreted things a certain way.

    Reagan's AG. This was done as part of the breaking of the Air Traffic Controller's union. He was looking for reasons to not pay them in order to get around contract negotiations. If congress didn't pass a budget, then he didn't have to pay them. The side effect is that now we have our current situation.

    Like most terrible things in the US Government, it always goes back to Reagan and Nixon.

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  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    I wonder if you could give Trump a billion or two for the wall, on the condition that none of it actually be spent on building a wall.

    a billion or so on a feasibility or environmental impact study. Maybe hire a design team to pick the colors and a logo.


  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    BSoB wrote: »
    I wonder if you could give Trump a billion or two for the wall, on the condition that none of it actually be spent on building a wall.

    a billion or so on a feasibility or environmental impact study. Maybe hire a design team to pick the colors and a logo.

    "Completely un-, on both counts, but we're (claiming that we're) going ahead anyway!"

    (The marketing will just be stolen from HBO, as usual.)

    Commander Zoom on
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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    If the Dems give him one goddamned dollar for anything related to his racist symbol, they have failed

    They cannot yield

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    If the Dems give him one goddamned dollar for anything related to his racist symbol, they have failed

    They cannot yield

    It’s not even about the racist symbol. They can’t give anything at all for any reason because this is about whether shutdowns are an acceptable negotiating tactic. The particulars of the negotiation are irrelevant.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    The only valid concession for the shutdown to end is a law ensuring no future shutdowns occur. That’s the only thing we should be willing to give to end it.

    But wait? How is that even a concession? It’s not, it’s a “Republican concession,” just like “we’ll allow shutdowns to end as long as it means the budget is cut every ninety days in perpetuity.” That’s how they play, they “offer” things you don’t want in order to get you to give in.

    We should do the same.

    mcdermott on
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Given the trump admin also just set out some new numbers for how much it would cost to fund the wall it is clear that the 5-6 billion is barely enough to get it started. So if you give them this money all it would mean is every budget going forward is going to lead to a huge shut down again to claw out more and more wall money. It would be political suicide for the dems to give trump wall money just in exchange for ending a shut down.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    I assume the shutdown has a pretty.... negative effect on the stock market? All this uncertainty about how long it's going to go on can't be good for business as usual. So what's the likelihood that Rich GOP Asshole Donors get tired of their portfolios tanking and start pressuring McConnell to cut this shit out now that it's costing them money?

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I assume the shutdown has a pretty.... negative effect on the stock market? All this uncertainty about how long it's going to go on can't be good for business as usual. So what's the likelihood that Rich GOP Asshole Donors get tired of their portfolios tanking and start pressuring McConnell to cut this shit out now that it's costing them money?

    The rich use recessions to buy shares on the cheap. They get richer as long as things get better *eventually*, and no matter what they become more powerful.

    Incenjucar on
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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Right now a ton of the rich are actually rooting for a quick recession so they can make money off of it. Also the markets are like a basket of cats right now. The projections are all over the place for what people are expecting the market to do.

    Sleep on
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Really the only way you could stop future shutdowns is rewrite the Budget Act of 1974

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I assume the shutdown has a pretty.... negative effect on the stock market? All this uncertainty about how long it's going to go on can't be good for business as usual. So what's the likelihood that Rich GOP Asshole Donors get tired of their portfolios tanking and start pressuring McConnell to cut this shit out now that it's costing them money?

    It hasn't really been bad for them yet.

    Vendors and contractors will get paid for their projects still.

    Credit companies will get a larger share of the employees pay in the form of new debt but that money will eventually go out and get spent.

    Now when we start seeing major airports and go into gridlock and if this shutdown rolls into a no deal brexit/a further breakdown in the tariff fiasco then we really may see the floor fall out.

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  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    (Folks if you really want to talk about the fast food thing there's a college football thread where it's on topic.) Anyway...
    Sleep wrote: »
    Right now a ton of the rich are actually rooting for a quick recession so they can make money off of it.

    That gives me vibes of the old "short victorious war." Ya know, what idiots root for right before they bring disaster down upon their heads.

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  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Mayabird wrote: »
    (Folks if you really want to talk about the fast food thing there's a college football thread where it's on topic.) Anyway...
    Sleep wrote: »
    Right now a ton of the rich are actually rooting for a quick recession so they can make money off of it.

    That gives me vibes of the old "short victorious war." Ya know, what idiots root for right before they bring disaster down upon their heads.

    Most of the people who make these decisions have correctly assessed their own exposure to consequences

    That is, zero

    Shorty on
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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Things I would 'give' Trump to end the shutdown.

    1) I would promise to hold a free vote in the house where each representative would be allowed to vote their conscience on a bill to fund the wall. Trump would be allowed up to two hours to address them all as a group before the vote, and could invite any member he wished for a one hour personal conference in the preceding week, all Democrats would promise to attend and hear his views. Nancy Pelosi would not present any counterargument after Trumps speech to the house, and Trump would be allowed to select at his discretion the amount of wall money which would be in the bill.
    2) I can't really think of anything else I would give him. All the burgers he wants maybe?

    Effectively the play I would make in line 1 is to say, "The President has said he is a great negotiator. He has called himself a dealmaker. We can't give him his wall now, because we've not had a chance to hear from him why he wants it, and we can't take the time to hear those views in detail while people are going without their paychecks. But, if the President thinks that his views are so convincing and that he is the Dealmaker in Chief, then we invite him to come and talk to us, and to persuade us. Let him show faith in himself and in his abilities. Open the government, and we will do blah blah blah (as outlined in option 1)"

    Noone has really tried to play to Trumps ego as President, I think he genuinely believes he is an amazing man who only has problems because the world is against him. I think if you offered him the above (IE, his would be the last voice the representatives heard before the vote) then he would assume he could make them vote for the wall.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
    Elvenshae
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Oh no, the rich people will be fine, and will get their tentacles into even more things with a recession

    Capitalism is very bad for almost everyone but the extremely wealthy

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Here's some things to get trump which he would appreciate and that wouldn't require chuck and nancy to give an inch on:

    From Chuck:
    participation-trophies.jpg

    And from nancy:
    Hot-Sales-Reward-Gold-Star-Stickers-In.jpg

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Trump is crazy/senile/stupid enough that if people were willing to play along we could easily trick him into thinking he was given what he wants, like lying to grandpa with dementia. The bill he's not going to read definitely has the money he wants, and he can think he won when it says nothing of the sort. But then again if people were actually willing to do that he would've been 25th Amendment-ed by now, or any number of other things.

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Trump is crazy/senile/stupid enough that if people were willing to play along we could easily trick him into thinking he was given what he wants, like lying to grandpa with dementia. The bill he's not going to read definitely has the money he wants, and he can think he won when it says nothing of the sort. But then again if people were actually willing to do that he would've been 25th Amendment-ed by now, or any number of other things.

    While he might not read it, you know Stephen Miller or some other lackey will. I think we've lost most of the people willing to slip in or out documents without Trump’s notice.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Trump is crazy/senile/stupid enough that if people were willing to play along we could easily trick him into thinking he was given what he wants, like lying to grandpa with dementia. The bill he's not going to read definitely has the money he wants, and he can think he won when it says nothing of the sort. But then again if people were actually willing to do that he would've been 25th Amendment-ed by now, or any number of other things.

    Yeah but what happens when the true believer who is evil but not stupid makes it in?

    We can’t even look like we budged. If the policy end result was all that mattered, we could maybe let it slide, but this is an ideological fight now. We are fighting against the principle of shutdowns being a useful way of achieving one party rule.

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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Look, the Senate is hard at work to-
    JUST IN: McConnell blocks House bill to reopen government for second time
    Under Senate rules, any senator can ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill, but any senator can object. McConnell blocked the two bills, saying the Senate wouldn't "participate in something that doesn't lead to an outcome."
    OH COME ON. The outcome is the fucking government opens back up, because Trump will buckle like a thing that fucking buckles easily. I'm too mad to come up with something clever.

    override367Doctor DetroitBucketmanmonikermjn6172Gnome-InterruptusMidniteLord_AsmodeusGennenalyse Ruebendurandal4532Martini_PhilosopherMomerathCantidetynicArbitraryDescriptorLegacyTheKoolEagleMvrckFawstFoolOnTheHillElvenshaeCommander ZoomApogeeThawmusMatevFencingsaxDoctorArchabotkinTetraNitroCubaneJaysonFourMild ConfusionEmerlmaster999mcdermottdispatch.oMan in the MistsMagellchrono_travellerTNTrooperArmorocStabbity StyleJohnny ChopsockyLovelyElldrenKristmas KthulhuMr RayAegeriRickRudeHavelock2.0A Kobold's KoboldNobeardSkeithjdarksunthatassemblyguyHefflingKamarL Ron HowardToxDonovan Puppyfuckeremp123
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Trump watches cable TV while the country burns, but McConnell set the fires.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Look, the Senate is hard at work to-
    JUST IN: McConnell blocks House bill to reopen government for second time
    Under Senate rules, any senator can ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill, but any senator can object. McConnell blocked the two bills, saying the Senate wouldn't "participate in something that doesn't lead to an outcome."
    OH COME ON. The outcome is the fucking government opens back up, because Trump will buckle like a thing that fucking buckles easily. I'm too mad to come up with something clever.

    Like a belt.

    I think Trump would veto, though. And that is what McConnell is really afraid of. If a veto happens and enough senators have changed their mind on whether to override it, or if the Republicans in the House don’t, suddenly it’s Trump and the Republicans’ fault.

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  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    If nothing else it is forcing mcconnell into being out in the open blocking the reoppening of govt. The democrats are busily looking like they are working to get the lights turned back on and trump and mcconnell are busy stopping them. They need to just keep doing this over and over and force Mcconnell to keep taking positions and hopefully enough GOP senators crack to go around him.

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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Look, the Senate is hard at work to-
    JUST IN: McConnell blocks House bill to reopen government for second time
    Under Senate rules, any senator can ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill, but any senator can object. McConnell blocked the two bills, saying the Senate wouldn't "participate in something that doesn't lead to an outcome."
    OH COME ON. The outcome is the fucking government opens back up, because Trump will buckle like a thing that fucking buckles easily. I'm too mad to come up with something clever.

    Like a belt.

    I think Trump would veto, though. And that is what McConnell is really afraid of. If a veto happens and enough senators have changed their mind on whether to override it, or if the Republicans in the House don’t, suddenly it’s Trump and the Republicans’ fault.
    But it's their fault right now literally anyway.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Trump watches cable TV while the country burns, but McConnell set the fires.

    It's more like the TV caused an electrical fire and mitch is waiting for trump to admit that it's a problem and needs to be fixed.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Look, the Senate is hard at work to-
    JUST IN: McConnell blocks House bill to reopen government for second time
    Under Senate rules, any senator can ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill, but any senator can object. McConnell blocked the two bills, saying the Senate wouldn't "participate in something that doesn't lead to an outcome."
    OH COME ON. The outcome is the fucking government opens back up, because Trump will buckle like a thing that fucking buckles easily. I'm too mad to come up with something clever.

    Each Senator in turn should get up and "ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill", every hour (or whatever timeframe is permitted) and make McConnell or a lackey have to object every time.

    Once they've gone through all the Democrats, publicly ask if any Republicans would like to do so, especially those already on record, like Gardner or Collins.

    Then start the whole process all over again.

    Make it crystal fucking clear that the Democrats want to open the government, and Republicans aren't.

    Senate try and do the same thing with the wall funding, have Democrats filibuster and publicly state "Clean CR and we'll pass it, but we don't negotate with hostage takers".

    I'd prefer terrorist to hostage taker, but that could backfire if people get overly sensitive.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Look, the Senate is hard at work to-
    JUST IN: McConnell blocks House bill to reopen government for second time
    Under Senate rules, any senator can ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill, but any senator can object. McConnell blocked the two bills, saying the Senate wouldn't "participate in something that doesn't lead to an outcome."
    OH COME ON. The outcome is the fucking government opens back up, because Trump will buckle like a thing that fucking buckles easily. I'm too mad to come up with something clever.

    Like a belt.

    I think Trump would veto, though. And that is what McConnell is really afraid of. If a veto happens and enough senators have changed their mind on whether to override it, or if the Republicans in the House don’t, suddenly it’s Trump and the Republicans’ fault.
    But it's their fault right now literally anyway.

    Yes. But his argument is that Trump will just veto. And people, so far, have taken that bullshit as an excuse. If he actually passes the bill and Trump vetoes it, suddenly people start asking, “What next?” And what’s next is an override attempt. Failing that would put the names of senators who voted against reopening the government out there as responsible.

  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Look, the Senate is hard at work to-
    JUST IN: McConnell blocks House bill to reopen government for second time
    Under Senate rules, any senator can ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill, but any senator can object. McConnell blocked the two bills, saying the Senate wouldn't "participate in something that doesn't lead to an outcome."
    OH COME ON. The outcome is the fucking government opens back up, because Trump will buckle like a thing that fucking buckles easily. I'm too mad to come up with something clever.

    Like a belt.

    I think Trump would veto, though. And that is what McConnell is really afraid of. If a veto happens and enough senators have changed their mind on whether to override it, or if the Republicans in the House don’t, suddenly it’s Trump and the Republicans’ fault.

    I think it's less whether or not Trump would veto or uncertainty on McConnell's part about how much of the GOP would toe the line and not vote to override and more that the Senate GOP don't want to have to vote on this. An up-or-down vote on the CR that passed the House is, in essence, a vote for or against The Wall and none of them want to tie themselves to that thing until they know which way it's going to go. For the last... what are we on, now? 8 years since the GOP took over the Congress under Obama? they've been able to get away with having a party with no shared values by getting the Freedom Caucus to not be too vocal about decrying whatever the old-guard Republicans want and getting the old-guard to give lip service support to whatever hairbrained thing the Freedom Caucus is riled up about now while just never actually voting on anything. Nothing goes to a vote unless McConnell knows (or at least, as has been the case a couple of times, thinks he knows) it's going to go the way that most benefits the GOP overall.

    Only this time they can't just sit there and do nothing indefinitely. But sitting there doing nothing indefinitely is basically the only play in the Senate GOP's playbook by this point. So either the Dems blink or Trump burns and they can try to dig something they can polish into a 'victory' out of the wreckage.

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    The Dems must repeat this process into public opinion fully abandons the Republicans

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Trump tried to go around Pelosi and invited a bunch of “moderate” Democrats to negotiate for the wall today.

    They all said no.

    joshofalltrades on
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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Look, the Senate is hard at work to-
    JUST IN: McConnell blocks House bill to reopen government for second time
    Under Senate rules, any senator can ask for consent to vote on or pass a bill, but any senator can object. McConnell blocked the two bills, saying the Senate wouldn't "participate in something that doesn't lead to an outcome."
    OH COME ON. The outcome is the fucking government opens back up, because Trump will buckle like a thing that fucking buckles easily. I'm too mad to come up with something clever.

    Like a belt.

    I think Trump would veto, though. And that is what McConnell is really afraid of. If a veto happens and enough senators have changed their mind on whether to override it, or if the Republicans in the House don’t, suddenly it’s Trump and the Republicans’ fault.
    But it's their fault right now literally anyway.

    Yes. But his argument is that Trump will just veto. And people, so far, have taken that bullshit as an excuse. If he actually passes the bill and Trump vetoes it, suddenly people start asking, “What next?” And what’s next is an override attempt. Failing that would put the names of senators who voted against reopening the government out there as responsible.

    The Republicans have been very consistent in this sort of paralysis (not doing A because then Trump will do B) - it was the same thing with the executive privilege farce (Trump hasn't exercised it, but he might, so I won't say anything in case he wants to exercise it). This is about the sheerest, most transparent cover possible.



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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    They are avoiding a lot of the blame right now because their voting record (as of the last CR) is to keep funding the government. If they did another vote, the record would likely change.

    Republicans fear being on the record when people are paying close attention.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Trump tried to go around Pelosi and invited a bunch of “moderate” Democrats to negotiate for the wall today.

    They all said no.

    ... God Damnit Rodney Davis.


    He/Him
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Trump tried to go around Pelosi and invited a bunch of “moderate” Democrats to negotiate for the wall today.

    They all said no.

    Remember, one of his recent lies is that he's been getting calls from Democratic legislators saying that they support him.

    Funny how reality has a way of fact checking.

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