ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
it's useful to remember "believe women" doesn't mean "the accuser is always telling the truth", it means "treat the accusation the same as you would for any other crime"
look into it, take it seriously, deal with it like it is something you care about finding the truth about
she could be telling the truth, she could be making it up. follow the threads and see what comes out of it. i can't support a system where we don't do that, but i also don't support a system where an accusation is enough to end a career. there has to be a process and it has to be equitable
it's the kind of crime that doesn't leave evidence for very long and can be extremely difficult to prove, so that has to be taken into account. i think the standard of "reasonable suspicion" is enough to convince me an official should resign
i don't know if we're there yet with fairfax, but i am not going to stand in the way of that because he's a democrat, nor am i going to condemn him without some sort of reason beyond a single accuser referring to an incident 15 years ago with no other allegations coming forward
i dunno, it's extremely tricky, and just because it's 15 years ago and possibly the only time doesn't mean it didn't happen. i really don't know what the right answer is if that turns out to be the case
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Yes it's true we need to look into someone who has made an accusation and you absolutely can look at communicationa between the two individuals and others as well as any relevant past history.
If we can stop insuating that trying to evaluate whether or not someone is telling the truth, on an individual basis, is supporting rapists that'd be great.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
for me, a single accusation fifteen years ago over a question of consent, with no pattern of behavior or any other context, is not enough to be calling for his head
i wish the culture were different and it didn't take fifteen years for an accusation to be taken seriously, i wish there were some way to prove definitively whether or not there was consent. i'm not willing to condemn someone over so nebulous a thing from so long ago
i will do everything i can to be an ally in changing the culture and supporting anyone who has been a victim of sexual assault, but taking her word as fact isn't any better to me than taking his word as fact when this currently appears to be a single incident in a vacuum with nothing to make it plausible either way
especially considering this accusation has only come to light, as far as i know, when he was running for office, and now again that the virginia democratic party is vulnerable, it's not enough for me to end his career over without something else supporting it
As far as I know, Fairfax’s accuser is a person of good character with no political reason to lie - she’s a university professor and a Democrat. Her accusation is very credible.
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
It takes more than one woman’s word to equal one man’s word in this society
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
It takes more than one woman’s word to equal one man’s word in this society
It takes more than one person's word against another in any goddamn legal case. Evidence and supporting witnesses/people of character exist.
No crime ever takes place in a vacuum. Which is why I want a goddamn investigation.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
This is exactly you hemming and hawing over whether to believe just one woman or not.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
As far as I know, Fairfax’s accuser is a person of good character with no political reason to lie - she’s a university professor and a Democrat. Her accusation is very credible.
The fact that what Celestial just pointed out, coupled with the fact that we know she isn't just making up a sexual encounter, because Fairfax admits to one happening, is still not enough for some of you is really telling. You can keep saying otherwise, but as a woman, I'm definitely getting a message from you all, whether it's the one you're intending or not.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
This is exactly you hemming and hawing over whether to believe just one woman or not.
No it is not. That is me going "if there was a pattern, I'd support his resignation."
If suddenly later today or tomorrow someone else comes out saying he sexually assaulted him, I'd call for his resignation. But regardless of her political party and job, I'm not going to call for Fairfax to resign just because she said this happened. The events surrounding this entire revelation are simply too murky for me to bullheadedly call for his resignation because "someone said."
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
It takes more than one woman’s word to equal one man’s word in this society
It takes more than one person's word against another in any goddamn legal case. Evidence and supporting witnesses/people of character exist.
No crime ever takes place in a vacuum. Which is why I want a goddamn investigation.
We aren’t talking about a legal case, and the fact that the legal standard makes crimes by powerful men against women almost impossible to prosecute is not an accident.
There is a 95% chance an investigation shows us nothing more than we know now.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
As far as I know, Fairfax’s accuser is a person of good character with no political reason to lie - she’s a university professor and a Democrat. Her accusation is very credible.
The fact that what Celestial just pointed out, coupled with the fact that we know she isn't just making up a sexual encounter, because Fairfax admits to one happening, is still not enough for some of you is really telling. You can keep saying otherwise, but as a woman, I'm definitely getting a message from you all, whether it's the one you're intending or not.
that he may have misinterpreted consent fifteen years ago (or not! we don't know either way!), one time, is not enough for me to call for his resignation from public office and effectively end his career?
yes, sure, i'll own that
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
This is exactly you hemming and hawing over whether to believe just one woman or not.
No it is not. That is me going "if there was a pattern, I'd support his resignation."
If suddenly later today or tomorrow someone else comes out saying he sexually assaulted him, I'd call for his resignation. But regardless of her political party and job, I'm not going to call for Fairfax to resign just because she said this happened. The events surrounding this entire revelation are simply too murky for me to bullheadedly call for his resignation because "someone said."
This is LITERALLY you saying you need more than one woman's word. I don't know what else to tell you.
As far as I know, Fairfax’s accuser is a person of good character with no political reason to lie - she’s a university professor and a Democrat. Her accusation is very credible.
The fact that what Celestial just pointed out, coupled with the fact that we know she isn't just making up a sexual encounter, because Fairfax admits to one happening, is still not enough for some of you is really telling. You can keep saying otherwise, but as a woman, I'm definitely getting a message from you all, whether it's the one you're intending or not.
that he may have misinterpreted consent fifteen years ago (or not! we don't know either way!), one time, is not enough for me to call for his resignation from public office and effectively end his career?
yes, sure, i'll own that
Yes, this is otherwise known as rape. But he just misinterpreted no big deal.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
okie dokie
i think i'm done here
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
This is exactly you hemming and hawing over whether to believe just one woman or not.
No it is not. That is me going "if there was a pattern, I'd support his resignation."
If suddenly later today or tomorrow someone else comes out saying he sexually assaulted him, I'd call for his resignation. But regardless of her political party and job, I'm not going to call for Fairfax to resign just because she said this happened. The events surrounding this entire revelation are simply too murky for me to bullheadedly call for his resignation because "someone said."
This is LITERALLY you saying you need more than one woman's word. I don't know what else to tell you.
As far as I know, Fairfax’s accuser is a person of good character with no political reason to lie - she’s a university professor and a Democrat. Her accusation is very credible.
The fact that what Celestial just pointed out, coupled with the fact that we know she isn't just making up a sexual encounter, because Fairfax admits to one happening, is still not enough for some of you is really telling. You can keep saying otherwise, but as a woman, I'm definitely getting a message from you all, whether it's the one you're intending or not.
that he may have misinterpreted consent fifteen years ago (or not! we don't know either way!), one time, is not enough for me to call for his resignation from public office and effectively end his career?
yes, sure, i'll own that
Yes, this is otherwise known as rape. But he just misinterpreted no big deal.
I'm calling for an investigation based on one person's word.
I don't know what else you want. For me to call for him to literally be sent to the guillotine?
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited February 2019
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
These sort of crimes absolutely and especially happen in places where there are no other witnesses.
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
It's really convenient these kinds of things get to happen in private where there usually is no further proof.
Either she's telling the truth about a sexual encounter we know happened.
Or she's lying specifically about consent for...reasons...?
Also I do not view him resigning as the most extreme option. Throwing him in jail would be.
Maratastik on
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
These sort of crimes absolutely and especially happen in places where there are no other witnesses.
No witnesses sure but someone was in the know. Someone heard about it, this stuff does not stay quiet. I'd also love to know what he was like in college. That would tell me quite a bit.
Hell if his accuser came out with a yearbook quote from him that was even slightly creepy I'd call for his resignation. I just don't see a pattern, which is why I want to dig in further to see if there is one.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
This shows such a misunderstanding about sexual assault I don't even know where to begin. Believe it or not...rapists often times come off as very nice people! Especially around friends and family.
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
These sort of crimes absolutely and especially happen in places where there are no other witnesses.
Hell if his accuser came out with a yearbook quote from him that was even slightly creepy I'd call for his resignation. I just don't see a pattern, which is why I want to dig in further to see if there is one.
I don't think everything in this story is going to be resolved by trawling yearbooks.
I want him to resign. I do not know why you compare that to being executed.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
This shows such a misunderstanding about sexual assault I don't even know where to begin. Believe it or not...rapists often times come off as very nice people! Especially around friends and family.
Right but would these people from 15 years ago qualify as friends now? Would they stay quiet if suddenly they get a subpoena to testify in front of a state house?
I don't think calling for an investigation is unreasonable. Especially in the circumstances that surround this accusation coming to light.
We will not accept this standard for literally any other crime and we shouldnt with this either.
No, the reality is that we treat rape and sexual assault vastly differently from other crimes. When people say they were robbed, there isn't a societal reflex to discount their accusation. If someone accused of battery claims that the incident is consentual, they would be expected to provide serious proof of that being the case.
We claim that we hold "the same standards", but it only takes a look at the matter to see that we don't.
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is.
Can you back this up in any way or explain what you mean? I feel like this idea is influencing your thoughts on this situation because it keeps coming up, but I'm not sure where it's coming from.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
edited February 2019
The only thing she could hope for is either:
1. Someone else was told sometime in the past. Hopefully multiple people.
2. Fairfax has a crisis of conscience and admits it happened (if it did).
3. More accusers come forth
The problem is we live in a society where it often happens that the accuser is dragged over the coals. It's why, you'd think, that most accusers are anonymous.
I have seen no reason to doubt this woman. However, while I don't necessarily think it's the case now, I would not put it past the GOP to artificially create accounts of sexual assault.
I feel dirty even saying that, but I would not be surprised to see this used as an attack in the future (though I assume all the "accusers" will be anonymous and oddly non-committal).
Yes, it is a political hitjob, but that is why I believe the accusation.
The woman Fairfax raped made a private statement on Facebook. She didn't want to tell anybody, not really. That statement was then leaked to a rightwing shitblog by some MAGA-asshole. Once it was out in the open the woman that Fairfax raped, sensibly, hired a legal team but also made her information and the accusation public.
Making an accusation like this publicly will likely ruin her life. There's no reason to do it if it isn't true. She didn't half-assedly draw a backward B on her face with a sharpie while tweeting about what a dangerous neighborhood she was driving through.
I don't know if any of the Virginia Dems will resign, and very few people seem to think that Herring should, and it is unfair and unjust that if a GOPer had done any of these things nobody would care, but Northam and Fairfax are irreparably tainted.
We already have more than "just" an accusation! Fairfax already confirmed that there was a sexual encounter between himself and the woman. The only thing in question is consent, which the woman is saying she did not give. An investigation is not going to prove whether she gave consent or didn't. You only have her word for it. So either her word is enough or it isn't. And I can see y'all hemming and hawing over whether the word of a single woman is enough or whether we should require the word of at least two or more women before we can do something.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is.
Can you back this up in any way or explain what you mean? I feel like this idea is influencing your thoughts on this situation because it keeps coming up, but I'm not sure where it's coming from.
The reality is that the reason that we're talking about this is because her voice got amplified by the ratfucking operation Big League Politics, who were the ones behind the Northam revelations as well.
Note that this fact does not mean that the accusation is false! But it points out that the reality is that it was pushed in part as an attack to try to put the Governorship into Republican hands.
Which is why this is all a fucking shit show, because there's a long game being played here to use our morals as a weapon to fuck us over. I feel that Fairfax should be removed, but at the same time, I'm scared that doing so will install a governor who will, among other things, work to roll back reproductive rights in VA.
We will not accept this standard for literally any other crime and we shouldnt with this either.
Whether someone should resign is different than criminal prosecution.
Honestly they should be one and the same in a high office.
If this is true then I'd like for him to be prosecuted.
You believe before someone steps down the charge should be proved beyond a reasonable doubt?
I don't.
Accusations should never be enough to get someone fired from a job, I don't care what the accusation is or what the job is. It opens up the door to people accusing someone of something just to get them fired. There should always be an investigation. Innocent before proven guilty should mean just as much outside of a court room as inside of it.
In high office, if it winds up be true and proven, they should absolutely be prosecuted.
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look into it, take it seriously, deal with it like it is something you care about finding the truth about
she could be telling the truth, she could be making it up. follow the threads and see what comes out of it. i can't support a system where we don't do that, but i also don't support a system where an accusation is enough to end a career. there has to be a process and it has to be equitable
it's the kind of crime that doesn't leave evidence for very long and can be extremely difficult to prove, so that has to be taken into account. i think the standard of "reasonable suspicion" is enough to convince me an official should resign
i don't know if we're there yet with fairfax, but i am not going to stand in the way of that because he's a democrat, nor am i going to condemn him without some sort of reason beyond a single accuser referring to an incident 15 years ago with no other allegations coming forward
i dunno, it's extremely tricky, and just because it's 15 years ago and possibly the only time doesn't mean it didn't happen. i really don't know what the right answer is if that turns out to be the case
I am not hemming or hawing. If Fairfax had more than one accusation against him, and I need to point out that I don't care how long in-between the accusations are, I'd be calling for him to resign immediately.
But I'm not going to help a political hitjob when that is clearly what this is. Nor am I going to call someone guilty when -I don't know.- But notice how I'm not calling him innocent?
Cause I don't know that either.
If we can stop insuating that trying to evaluate whether or not someone is telling the truth, on an individual basis, is supporting rapists that'd be great.
i wish the culture were different and it didn't take fifteen years for an accusation to be taken seriously, i wish there were some way to prove definitively whether or not there was consent. i'm not willing to condemn someone over so nebulous a thing from so long ago
i will do everything i can to be an ally in changing the culture and supporting anyone who has been a victim of sexual assault, but taking her word as fact isn't any better to me than taking his word as fact when this currently appears to be a single incident in a vacuum with nothing to make it plausible either way
especially considering this accusation has only come to light, as far as i know, when he was running for office, and now again that the virginia democratic party is vulnerable, it's not enough for me to end his career over without something else supporting it
It takes more than one woman’s word to equal one man’s word in this society
It takes more than one person's word against another in any goddamn legal case. Evidence and supporting witnesses/people of character exist.
No crime ever takes place in a vacuum. Which is why I want a goddamn investigation.
This is exactly you hemming and hawing over whether to believe just one woman or not.
The fact that what Celestial just pointed out, coupled with the fact that we know she isn't just making up a sexual encounter, because Fairfax admits to one happening, is still not enough for some of you is really telling. You can keep saying otherwise, but as a woman, I'm definitely getting a message from you all, whether it's the one you're intending or not.
No it is not. That is me going "if there was a pattern, I'd support his resignation."
If suddenly later today or tomorrow someone else comes out saying he sexually assaulted him, I'd call for his resignation. But regardless of her political party and job, I'm not going to call for Fairfax to resign just because she said this happened. The events surrounding this entire revelation are simply too murky for me to bullheadedly call for his resignation because "someone said."
We aren’t talking about a legal case, and the fact that the legal standard makes crimes by powerful men against women almost impossible to prosecute is not an accident.
There is a 95% chance an investigation shows us nothing more than we know now.
that he may have misinterpreted consent fifteen years ago (or not! we don't know either way!), one time, is not enough for me to call for his resignation from public office and effectively end his career?
yes, sure, i'll own that
This is LITERALLY you saying you need more than one woman's word. I don't know what else to tell you.
Yes, this is otherwise known as rape. But he just misinterpreted no big deal.
i think i'm done here
I'm calling for an investigation based on one person's word.
I don't know what else you want. For me to call for him to literally be sent to the guillotine?
But it usually reads like an attempt to kick the can down the road because there’s only two doors:
Pressure men to resign when accused in a way that can’t be easily dismissed, even if the accusation can’t be thoroughly proven
Or:
Let powerful men get away with crimes against women so long as they are a tiny bit careful.
And we all know society, even liberal society, is gonna take door no. 2. We are just uncomfortable admitting it.
Because you're calling for the most extreme option first when there's literally no evidence that he should up and leave. I want an investigation because, if this is true, there is almost certainly someone else in the know about it. Crime does not happen in a vacuum, especially these sorts of crimes. Let's call his friends up in front of a state house panel and start grilling them.
But I'm not going to call for him to end his career and potentially plunge Virginia into 1000 years of darkness without further proof.
These sort of crimes absolutely and especially happen in places where there are no other witnesses.
It's really convenient these kinds of things get to happen in private where there usually is no further proof.
Either she's telling the truth about a sexual encounter we know happened.
Or she's lying specifically about consent for...reasons...?
Also I do not view him resigning as the most extreme option. Throwing him in jail would be.
No witnesses sure but someone was in the know. Someone heard about it, this stuff does not stay quiet. I'd also love to know what he was like in college. That would tell me quite a bit.
Hell if his accuser came out with a yearbook quote from him that was even slightly creepy I'd call for his resignation. I just don't see a pattern, which is why I want to dig in further to see if there is one.
This shows such a misunderstanding about sexual assault I don't even know where to begin. Believe it or not...rapists often times come off as very nice people! Especially around friends and family.
I don't think everything in this story is going to be resolved by trawling yearbooks.
Right but would these people from 15 years ago qualify as friends now? Would they stay quiet if suddenly they get a subpoena to testify in front of a state house?
I don't think calling for an investigation is unreasonable. Especially in the circumstances that surround this accusation coming to light.
Whether someone should resign is different than criminal prosecution.
No, the reality is that we treat rape and sexual assault vastly differently from other crimes. When people say they were robbed, there isn't a societal reflex to discount their accusation. If someone accused of battery claims that the incident is consentual, they would be expected to provide serious proof of that being the case.
We claim that we hold "the same standards", but it only takes a look at the matter to see that we don't.
Honestly they should be one and the same in a high office.
If this is true then I'd like for him to be prosecuted.
But insurance companies do try and find out if you are lying about robbery to claim on the insurance.
Can you back this up in any way or explain what you mean? I feel like this idea is influencing your thoughts on this situation because it keeps coming up, but I'm not sure where it's coming from.
1. Someone else was told sometime in the past. Hopefully multiple people.
2. Fairfax has a crisis of conscience and admits it happened (if it did).
3. More accusers come forth
The problem is we live in a society where it often happens that the accuser is dragged over the coals. It's why, you'd think, that most accusers are anonymous.
I have seen no reason to doubt this woman. However, while I don't necessarily think it's the case now, I would not put it past the GOP to artificially create accounts of sexual assault.
I feel dirty even saying that, but I would not be surprised to see this used as an attack in the future (though I assume all the "accusers" will be anonymous and oddly non-committal).
I hate people.
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You believe before someone steps down the charge should be proved beyond a reasonable doubt?
I don't.
The woman Fairfax raped made a private statement on Facebook. She didn't want to tell anybody, not really. That statement was then leaked to a rightwing shitblog by some MAGA-asshole. Once it was out in the open the woman that Fairfax raped, sensibly, hired a legal team but also made her information and the accusation public.
Making an accusation like this publicly will likely ruin her life. There's no reason to do it if it isn't true. She didn't half-assedly draw a backward B on her face with a sharpie while tweeting about what a dangerous neighborhood she was driving through.
I don't know if any of the Virginia Dems will resign, and very few people seem to think that Herring should, and it is unfair and unjust that if a GOPer had done any of these things nobody would care, but Northam and Fairfax are irreparably tainted.
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The reality is that the reason that we're talking about this is because her voice got amplified by the ratfucking operation Big League Politics, who were the ones behind the Northam revelations as well.
Note that this fact does not mean that the accusation is false! But it points out that the reality is that it was pushed in part as an attack to try to put the Governorship into Republican hands.
Which is why this is all a fucking shit show, because there's a long game being played here to use our morals as a weapon to fuck us over. I feel that Fairfax should be removed, but at the same time, I'm scared that doing so will install a governor who will, among other things, work to roll back reproductive rights in VA.
And I don't know about you, but that incenses me.
I was talkiang bout investigating the accusation, not whether or not he should resign.
Accusations should never be enough to get someone fired from a job, I don't care what the accusation is or what the job is. It opens up the door to people accusing someone of something just to get them fired. There should always be an investigation. Innocent before proven guilty should mean just as much outside of a court room as inside of it.
In high office, if it winds up be true and proven, they should absolutely be prosecuted.