I feel my long-standing low opinion of Dany was validated tonight
Yup. And while to some this was an expected result, with seeds subtly placed all the way through, turning her from a fan favorite into a villain, almost out of nowhere, isn't going to go over well.
I saw someone mention it's no different than Joffrey taking Ned's head, or Frey and Bolton at the Red Wedding. The difference is, the show didn't spend 70 hours making Joffrey, Walder or Roose a person to cheer for, at all. Everyone spent their entire screen time either ambivalent (Roose prior to), or actively wishing they were dead.
There are hundreds of children in the real world named after her. Because people were emotionally invested in her, because they were made to care about her. They're not going to care that it makes sense from the hints dropped here and there. This is Superman snapping innocent bystander necks. Seeded justification doesn't matter.
I've never been a big Dany fan myself (hate the idea of "owed birthright", I'm fine with destiny, but "I deserve this" just pisses me off). But I know several people that are going to be furious at this, as unless you REALLY paid attention, and viewed Dany with a lens of suspicion from the start, it seems like it turned on a dime.
Yeah, as someone who has pointed out on these forums for years that Dany is a megalomaniac and has no morally superior claim to the throne given her primary cause is outlawing slavery, which has been outlawed in Westerns for centuries, I find Dany's "turn" to madness to be entirely inconsistent with her characterization thus far.
Plenty of people, book readers in particular, have expected Dany to eventually become a Mad Targaryen. In this case, issue is clearly one of execution.
You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.
There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.
That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.
And the misunderstanding only works if you've then got a good 5+ episodes to work through the back and forth, and have her either come out on top, or descend into paranoia.
Weiss and Benioff have 70 minutes.
Even the most awesome writing would feel incredibly rushed for that to have a satisfying ending.
Instead, it's gonna be Jon being forced into it. Or Dany wins, and rules over ashes. Anyone who cared about Dany being completely unsatisfied.
Well sure.... But I still have no idea how they're going to completely wrap up what they DO have in only 70 minutes. It feels like there's still so much up in the air right now that there is absolutely no way we're going to get anything even remotely close to a satisfying ending.
I think Dany's villainous turn could've been far better set up and executed. They needed more episodes to set up, but they refused to do so. So what we got was, instead Dany slowly descending into paranoia and viciousness, we have her just diving off a cliff emotionally so they can check off a box.
You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.
There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.
That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.
And the misunderstanding only works if you've then got a good 5+ episodes to work through the back and forth, and have her either come out on top, or descend into paranoia.
Weiss and Benioff have 70 minutes.
Even the most awesome writing would feel incredibly rushed for that to have a satisfying ending.
Instead, it's gonna be Jon being forced into it. Or Dany wins, and rules over ashes. Anyone who cared about Dany being completely unsatisfied.
Well sure.... But I still have no idea how they're going to completely wrap up what they DO have in only 70 minutes. It feels like there's still so much up in the air right now that there is absolutely no way we're going to get anything even remotely close to a satisfying ending.
Well... they're not?
But it's much easier to have Jon go all George Milton on Dany, and still wrap things up in a quasi-logical manner. Half hour of aftermath, half hour of convincing Jon that he needs to do it, five minutes for Jon to ask her to think of the rabbits, and 5 minutes of "And then Jon ruled, and was a benevont king."
You can't really do that with Dany accidentally blowing up King's Landing, and then proving/convincing others "Nope, wasn't me!", and Dany gets to sit on the throne, or get pissy at the recriminations, and still make sense.
Satisfying is clearly off the table. But it can still have a non-pants-on-head conclusion, given the pants-on-head events leading up to this.
Don't expect them to clear that bar either. Have absolutely no faith in these chucklefucks to stick the landing. They're gonna try and vault the finish, and they're gonna Brian Meeker this shit.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
I think Dany's villainous turn could've been far better set up and executed. They needed more episodes to set up, but they refused to do so. So what we got was, instead Dany slowly descending into paranoia and viciousness, we have her just diving off a cliff emotionally so they can check off a box.
And if for production reasons they needed her diving off of cliff they could have done it as part of battle ptsd, even seasoned veterans sometimes lose their shit on a battlefield. Maybe she takes a Arya style hit to the head (flying debris or whatever) while she’s flying. Show some blood under the nose to set the narrative stage for brain injury, and then have her go cray would be tragic but inline with the myopic randomness of war.
It certainly feels like the fallout from this episode should take more than a single episode to settle.
Dany still has an army. Assuming they don't turn against her or just drop arms the minute she's assassinated, next week's war will be the shortest ever.
You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.
There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.
That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.
And the misunderstanding only works if you've then got a good 5+ episodes to work through the back and forth, and have her either come out on top, or descend into paranoia.
Weiss and Benioff have 70 minutes.
Even the most awesome writing would feel incredibly rushed for that to have a satisfying ending.
Instead, it's gonna be Jon being forced into it. Or Dany wins, and rules over ashes. Anyone who cared about Dany being completely unsatisfied.
Well sure.... But I still have no idea how they're going to completely wrap up what they DO have in only 70 minutes. It feels like there's still so much up in the air right now that there is absolutely no way we're going to get anything even remotely close to a satisfying ending.
Well... they're not?
But it's much easier to have Jon go all George Milton on Dany, and still wrap things up in a quasi-logical manner. Half hour of aftermath, half hour of convincing Jon that he needs to do it, five minutes for Jon to ask her to think of the rabbits, and 5 minutes of "And then Jon ruled, and was a benevont king."
You can't really do that with Dany accidentally blowing up King's Landing, and then proving/convincing others "Nope, wasn't me!", and Dany gets to sit on the throne, or get pissy at the recriminations, and still make sense.
Satisfying is clearly off the table. But it can still have a non-pants-on-head conclusion, given the pants-on-head events leading up to this.
Don't expect them to clear that bar either. Have absolutely no faith in these chucklefucks to stick the landing. They're gonna try and vault the finish, and they're gonna Brian Meeker this shit.
Oh believe me, I'm well aware this is not going to be satisfying..... I'm just saying it doesn't even feel like it's going to be anything near it. Like, there could have been a way to end the episode and have it feel like there was going to be A Conclusion, but it doesn't even feel like they're close to ANY resolution right now.
It certainly feels like the fallout from this episode should take more than a single episode to settle.
Dany still has an army. Assuming they don't turn against her or just drop arms the minute she's assassinated, next week's war will be the shortest ever.
Does she though? Given the complete randomness that's been "Hey, despite suffering massive losses multiple times, but never seeming to actually get weaker.", maybe the 'half the Dothraki that survived Winterfell' and what's left of the '8000 Unsullied that have steadily suffered losses and are an unreplenishable resource' are actually illusions, and it was really just Grey Worm and the scraps remaining standing in front of a hallucination the entire time.
In hindsight I liked this episode more than the last one. I like the destination, just not how we got here.
The biggest failure to me these last two seasons was consistency. Either Eurons fleet and the ballista are dangerous or they aren't. It is presented as completely arbitrary depending on what needs to happen.
You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.
There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.
That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.
And the misunderstanding only works if you've then got a good 5+ episodes to work through the back and forth, and have her either come out on top, or descend into paranoia.
Weiss and Benioff have 70 minutes.
Even the most awesome writing would feel incredibly rushed for that to have a satisfying ending.
Instead, it's gonna be Jon being forced into it. Or Dany wins, and rules over ashes. Anyone who cared about Dany being completely unsatisfied.
Well sure.... But I still have no idea how they're going to completely wrap up what they DO have in only 70 minutes. It feels like there's still so much up in the air right now that there is absolutely no way we're going to get anything even remotely close to a satisfying ending.
Well... they're not?
But it's much easier to have Jon go all George Milton on Dany, and still wrap things up in a quasi-logical manner. Half hour of aftermath, half hour of convincing Jon that he needs to do it, five minutes for Jon to ask her to think of the rabbits, and 5 minutes of "And then Jon ruled, and was a benevont king."
You can't really do that with Dany accidentally blowing up King's Landing, and then proving/convincing others "Nope, wasn't me!", and Dany gets to sit on the throne, or get pissy at the recriminations, and still make sense.
Satisfying is clearly off the table. But it can still have a non-pants-on-head conclusion, given the pants-on-head events leading up to this.
Don't expect them to clear that bar either. Have absolutely no faith in these chucklefucks to stick the landing. They're gonna try and vault the finish, and they're gonna Brian Meeker this shit.
Oh believe me, I'm well aware this is not going to be satisfying..... I'm just saying it doesn't even feel like it's going to be anything near it. Like, there could have been a way to end the episode and have it feel like there was going to be A Conclusion, but it doesn't even feel like they're close to ANY resolution right now.
A resolution they're pretty close to:
Arya de-faces Grey Worm to get close to Dany, then orders the Unsullied to escort the Dothraki back to Essos.
Drogon already likes Jon (it let Jon pet it when they first met), and is not a problem. Maybe he punts the throne to Gendry.
Alternatively: Dany is Queen now and no one dares to oppose her. Her bloody conquest is ultimately papered over just like Aegon's once was.
You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.
There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.
That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.
And the misunderstanding only works if you've then got a good 5+ episodes to work through the back and forth, and have her either come out on top, or descend into paranoia.
Weiss and Benioff have 70 minutes.
Don't care
They chose the season structure, and they wanted it done quick because they haven't given a fuck for years
+16
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mojojoeoA block off the park, living the dream.Registered Userregular
In hindsight I liked this episode more than the last one. I like the destination, just not how we got here.
The biggest failure to me these last two seasons was consistency. Either Eurons fleet and the ballista are dangerous or they aren't. It is presented as completely arbitrary depending on what needs to happen.
For the life of me- I thought all it would take was dany dive bombing them as their weapons had a low angle upwards. i was like 'that would be smart.'
What I failed to realize is that all she had to do was fly harder.
Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
So Bronn has gone from having to kill Tyrion to get his castle, to having to save Tryion to get his castle. Right? I mean, thats the setup now? So does Bronn kill Drogon or Danny? Or kill Drogon which allows Arya to kill Danny?
I don't even really know why Jon "had" to tell his sisters. It changes basically nothing about their relationship.
I know Jon is supposed to be honorable to a fault but come on. Even Ned knew better than to open his trap about this one - at considerable expense to his marriage and reputation.
Winter kills everyone because no one has been harvesting for the last 7 years. The end.
The episode by itself was okay but the shorter season was a bad idea. It feels like three episodes of content are smashed and edited into one episode and they're cutting all the reasons to give a shit.
Also, a bunch of really really drawn out slow motion with sad music seems to be a thing they think they discovered.
Not every action sequence needs a Frodo and Sam dying on the side of Mount Doom series of hopeless cutaways to other characters with desperate music.
+6
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mojojoeoA block off the park, living the dream.Registered Userregular
Bron's done guys. closed loop. Everyone who owes him is dead or in service of the mad queen with no power to pay it off. Bron lived out his days in the vale dreaming about "what might have been."
Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
I don't even really know why Jon "had" to tell his sisters. It changes basically nothing about their relationship.
I know Jon is supposed to be honorable to a fault but come on. Even Ned knew better than to open his trap about this one - at considerable expense to his marriage and reputation.
Good point. Jon is even dumber about his honor than Ned, and Ned got decapitated for it.
I don't even really know why Jon "had" to tell his sisters. It changes basically nothing about their relationship.
I know Jon is supposed to be honorable to a fault but come on. Even Ned knew better than to open his trap about this one - at considerable expense to his marriage and reputation.
Good point. Jon is even dumber about his honor than Ned, and Ned got decapitated for it.
Jon has already died for it once.
He really is f'n dumb.
A good writer maybe would have had Jon learn his lesson about what honor is worth.
I feel like the last scene next week is just going to be like the last scene of burn after reading.
Mark Addy and Sean Bean (not Robert and Ned) just saying "Okay, then what happened?"
Or like Rhaillor and Melissendre in whatever afterlife exists in the GOT world.
Rhaillor: So what do we learn from all this?
Melissendre: I don't know sir?
Rhaillor: I don't fucking know either. I guess we learn not to do it again.
Melissendre: I guess, sir.
Rhaillor: Although I'm fucked if I know what we did.
Melissendre: It's really hard to say
Rhaillor: Arya Fucking Stark
In hindsight I liked this episode more than the last one. I like the destination, just not how we got here.
The biggest failure to me these last two seasons was consistency. Either Eurons fleet and the ballista are dangerous or they aren't. It is presented as completely arbitrary depending on what needs to happen.
For the life of me- I thought all it would take was dany dive bombing them as their weapons had a low angle upwards. i was like 'that would be smart.'
What I failed to realize is that all she had to do was fly harder.
Right like I thought it would be about flying in from the sun and arrowing straight into a boat, then popping back up, because that's something hard to track.
Then they just sort of had trouble leading the target this time, instead. Hundreds of times.
I don't even really know why Jon "had" to tell his sisters. It changes basically nothing about their relationship.
I know Jon is supposed to be honorable to a fault but come on. Even Ned knew better than to open his trap about this one.
Generous interpretation: to be truthful with them because he trusts them, and also to clear the reputation of Ned Stark of the horrible crime of fathering a bastard.
Less generous interpretation: after been made out the worthless bastard his whole life, he wanted to let his sisters know that he's better than a bastard.
Showrunner interpretation: Jon wanted them to know that they're not a real family because only people who are directly related through both their mother and father can be considered family and since they aren't that they should stop calling him brother and start calling him cousin because that's technically more accurate, it's a very clever callback to all the time he spent with Stannis and these latent nitpicky qualities are what made Davos follow him after Stannis's death, it's such a clever story beat that most people probably didn't even catch it because we're the most intelligent and smartest writers to ever have written words.
So I haven't been watching this season as is, I thought I'd wait and just binge it all but someone spoiled me on this episode and I didn't believe them at first because it sounded like they were obviously trolling me, but in the back of my mind I thought "no... no way.... but maybe... they wouldn't..."
So I youtube'd some clips and just oh my god.
That's how Cersei goes out? random rubble and assumed death? Though I wouldn't put it past this show for them to both have survived somehow at this point.
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Yeah, as someone who has pointed out on these forums for years that Dany is a megalomaniac and has no morally superior claim to the throne given her primary cause is outlawing slavery, which has been outlawed in Westerns for centuries, I find Dany's "turn" to madness to be entirely inconsistent with her characterization thus far.
Plenty of people, book readers in particular, have expected Dany to eventually become a Mad Targaryen. In this case, issue is clearly one of execution.
Well sure.... But I still have no idea how they're going to completely wrap up what they DO have in only 70 minutes. It feels like there's still so much up in the air right now that there is absolutely no way we're going to get anything even remotely close to a satisfying ending.
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*Dany died on the way back to her home planet, having forgotten about assassins*
Well... they're not?
But it's much easier to have Jon go all George Milton on Dany, and still wrap things up in a quasi-logical manner. Half hour of aftermath, half hour of convincing Jon that he needs to do it, five minutes for Jon to ask her to think of the rabbits, and 5 minutes of "And then Jon ruled, and was a benevont king."
You can't really do that with Dany accidentally blowing up King's Landing, and then proving/convincing others "Nope, wasn't me!", and Dany gets to sit on the throne, or get pissy at the recriminations, and still make sense.
Satisfying is clearly off the table. But it can still have a non-pants-on-head conclusion, given the pants-on-head events leading up to this.
Don't expect them to clear that bar either. Have absolutely no faith in these chucklefucks to stick the landing. They're gonna try and vault the finish, and they're gonna Brian Meeker this shit.
Dany still has an army. Assuming they don't turn against her or just drop arms the minute she's assassinated, next week's war will be the shortest ever.
Oh believe me, I'm well aware this is not going to be satisfying..... I'm just saying it doesn't even feel like it's going to be anything near it. Like, there could have been a way to end the episode and have it feel like there was going to be A Conclusion, but it doesn't even feel like they're close to ANY resolution right now.
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I was somewhat expecting her involvement in the climactic siege? You know, since she might have a personal bone to pick with Euron, instead of Jaime.
Does she though? Given the complete randomness that's been "Hey, despite suffering massive losses multiple times, but never seeming to actually get weaker.", maybe the 'half the Dothraki that survived Winterfell' and what's left of the '8000 Unsullied that have steadily suffered losses and are an unreplenishable resource' are actually illusions, and it was really just Grey Worm and the scraps remaining standing in front of a hallucination the entire time.
Character arcs are for 8th graders
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
The biggest failure to me these last two seasons was consistency. Either Eurons fleet and the ballista are dangerous or they aren't. It is presented as completely arbitrary depending on what needs to happen.
A resolution they're pretty close to:
Arya de-faces Grey Worm to get close to Dany, then orders the Unsullied to escort the Dothraki back to Essos.
Drogon already likes Jon (it let Jon pet it when they first met), and is not a problem. Maybe he punts the throne to Gendry.
Alternatively: Dany is Queen now and no one dares to oppose her. Her bloody conquest is ultimately papered over just like Aegon's once was.
Don't care
They chose the season structure, and they wanted it done quick because they haven't given a fuck for years
For the life of me- I thought all it would take was dany dive bombing them as their weapons had a low angle upwards. i was like 'that would be smart.'
What I failed to realize is that all she had to do was fly harder.
Involving Tyrion and Davos as they drift down Rhoyne to live the simple life of river boat captains as far from Kings and Queens as they can manage.
At the conclusion of the conversation they pick up their next clients: A sellsword traveling with his son and a former septa.
Mark Addy and Sean Bean (not Robert and Ned) just saying "Okay, then what happened?"
This is just...wow. This is Star Wars prequels bad.
EDIT: Also I didn't see that meme already posted, so I gather I'm definitely not the only one looking down the barrel of that similarity.
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That or Jon got a damn clue about it. Shut up and kiss her you fucking idiot!
Will he just waltz into where ever Dany is holding court, demand Highgarden, get grilled?
Will he save Tyrion from his inevitable execution because of reasons?
Or maybe they'll just never mention it again.
That's more or less the only thing I'm interested in seeing next episode.
I know Jon is supposed to be honorable to a fault but come on. Even Ned knew better than to open his trap about this one - at considerable expense to his marriage and reputation.
Bronn just moves into Highgarden and nobody pays attention
The episode by itself was okay but the shorter season was a bad idea. It feels like three episodes of content are smashed and edited into one episode and they're cutting all the reasons to give a shit.
Also, a bunch of really really drawn out slow motion with sad music seems to be a thing they think they discovered.
Not every action sequence needs a Frodo and Sam dying on the side of Mount Doom series of hopeless cutaways to other characters with desperate music.
Good point. Jon is even dumber about his honor than Ned, and Ned got decapitated for it.
Jon has already died for it once.
He really is f'n dumb.
A good writer maybe would have had Jon learn his lesson about what honor is worth.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Or like Rhaillor and Melissendre in whatever afterlife exists in the GOT world.
Rhaillor: So what do we learn from all this?
Melissendre: I don't know sir?
Rhaillor: I don't fucking know either. I guess we learn not to do it again.
Melissendre: I guess, sir.
Rhaillor: Although I'm fucked if I know what we did.
Melissendre: It's really hard to say
Rhaillor: Arya Fucking Stark
Right like I thought it would be about flying in from the sun and arrowing straight into a boat, then popping back up, because that's something hard to track.
Then they just sort of had trouble leading the target this time, instead. Hundreds of times.
Generous interpretation: to be truthful with them because he trusts them, and also to clear the reputation of Ned Stark of the horrible crime of fathering a bastard.
Less generous interpretation: after been made out the worthless bastard his whole life, he wanted to let his sisters know that he's better than a bastard.
Showrunner interpretation: Jon wanted them to know that they're not a real family because only people who are directly related through both their mother and father can be considered family and since they aren't that they should stop calling him brother and start calling him cousin because that's technically more accurate, it's a very clever callback to all the time he spent with Stannis and these latent nitpicky qualities are what made Davos follow him after Stannis's death, it's such a clever story beat that most people probably didn't even catch it because we're the most intelligent and smartest writers to ever have written words.
He does have a wagon full of Gold, maybe he just buys it.
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So I youtube'd some clips and just oh my god.
That's how Cersei goes out? random rubble and assumed death? Though I wouldn't put it past this show for them to both have survived somehow at this point.
Yes this too
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here