The Witches of Dathomir still exist in the current canon - The Clone Wars and Rebels.
But, yeah, I've never been a fan of there being different sides to the Force. It should simply be. No one really thinks that a lion pouncing on a gazelle is the dark side of nature. It's just a part of it. Given that the Force is generated by nature, notions of Light and Dark should be about the person, not the power itself.
And the movies show this to some extent - telekinesis isn't good or bad, but can be used to both lift a ship out of a swamp or choke people out. I can imagine instances where a mind trick can kill ("you will walk off this catwalk") and where lightning could be beneficial (you're now a source of free electricity; see also: The Legend of Korra).
But then everything is muddled in the prequels by this weak, pseudo-environmental take on it where the Dark Side has essentially polluted the rest of it (the balance of nature the Force is thrown off). Of course, how or why is never explained. We're just supposed to believe that one guy - Palpatine - is so evil he can pollute the entire metaphysical framework of the galaxy.
For me, it's too big of an ask.
I mean, I think it was more of a "Palpatine is corruptive and evil" and also "the Jedi have become totally ineffective and complacent" thing, so my problem is more with the execution of the ideas than the ideas themselves.
Oh, for sure. And, really, the story could have (and I argue should have) just relied on those two points. But then Lucas had to throw in Force Jesus and the Force being imbalanced and the prophecy - which I maintain are stupid ideas for a variety of reasons - which muddy what is a really simple and effective story.
I mean, the prophecy being a lie by Palpatine would be an interesting way to go, but yeah, Force Jesus was dumb as all get out, and "balance" in that way was nonsensical.
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I hope that is where Rise is going. That's kinda where I thought Luke would be to start the ST. It's a living religion and he was the last practitioner, made sense that his views would bring passion back. My fear is that Rey will learn to use the Dark without falling to it.
Luke does (in RotJ he force chokes a pig man).
I mean Luke in TLJ was pushing a pretty hard grey jedi vibe. He doesnt define a good and bad force simply a life and death force, both needed for life to continue.
But this is more because they redefined* the light side to be acting with good intention and the dark side to be acting with bad intention. The powers you use dont make you good or bad its how you use them. Yoda uses force lightning for goodness sakes!
*didnt actually redefine it; its been this way textually forever but not explicitly stated
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I hope that is where Rise is going. That's kinda where I thought Luke would be to start the ST. It's a living religion and he was the last practitioner, made sense that his views would bring passion back. My fear is that Rey will learn to use the Dark without falling to it.
Luke does (in RotJ he force chokes a pig man).
I mean Luke in TLJ was pushing a pretty hard grey jedi vibe. He doesnt define a good and bad force simply a life and death force, both needed for life to continue.
But this is more because they redefined* the light side to be acting with good intention and the dark side to be acting with bad intention. The powers you use dont make you good or bad its how you use them. Yoda uses force lightning for goodness sakes!
*didnt actually redefine it; its been this way textually forever but not explicitly stated
I feel like its always been that way except its hard to act with good intention when using the force for destruction, which is what Force Lightning, Choke, etc are primarily used for. So Jedi avoided using force techniques that could lead down the path to the dark side as a precaution more than a hard line of "this power is the dark side and this power is the light side".
Late to the party, but yeah, the bombers looked incredibly dumb and not cool, HOWEVER, they would really work in a X-wing Vs Tie fighter game, where all torpedos not launched 2 meters away from the target gets intercepted.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
Late to the party, but yeah, the bombers looked incredibly dumb and not cool, HOWEVER, they would really work in a X-wing Vs Tie fighter game, where all torpedos not launched 2 meters away from the target gets intercepted.
No, but only because capital ships carrying anti-starfighter lasers (and ONLY those lasers--look it up, they cut a lot of corners in those games) could shoot both the bombs and the bombers down.
Late to the party, but yeah, the bombers looked incredibly dumb and not cool, HOWEVER, they would really work in a X-wing Vs Tie fighter game, where all torpedos not launched 2 meters away from the target gets intercepted.
No, but only because capital ships carrying anti-starfighter lasers (and ONLY those lasers--look it up, they cut a lot of corners in those games) could shoot both the bombs and the bombers down.
(I'm just here for the Totally Games reference.)
Heavy bombs were in the game, although they worked like dive bombers, I remember them being pretty effective. But it might have been some add-on, or expansion.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
Late to the party, but yeah, the bombers looked incredibly dumb and not cool, HOWEVER, they would really work in a X-wing Vs Tie fighter game, where all torpedos not launched 2 meters away from the target gets intercepted.
No, but only because capital ships carrying anti-starfighter lasers (and ONLY those lasers--look it up, they cut a lot of corners in those games) could shoot both the bombs and the bombers down.
(I'm just here for the Totally Games reference.)
Heavy bombs were in the game, although they worked like dive bombers, I remember them being pretty effective. But it might have been some add-on, or expansion.
The heavy bombs were always in TIE fighter, though (IIRC) the heavy rockets got you more bang for your buck since you could carry more of them then the bombs.
The trick (if you want to call it that) was to drop the bombs and then change course to get away from the bombs so the ship you were targeting wouldn't accidentally hit your bombs when it was targeting you.
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
I am looking forward to the big space combat shake-up in Rise of Skywalker. The widespread use of hyper missiles or hyper drones as ordinance is going to bring an awesome change up to the space comabt scenes that were honestly becoming a bit stale. Its also some pretty good looking eye candy that really stands out and should make for some good shots that aren't just a confused mess of red and green flashing lights that are hard to follow.
I am afraid though that the hyperspace laser from The Force Awakens will basically eliminate any large capital ship engagements, although I guess they could go with something like the Return of the Jedi space battle where they have to engage at point blank range. Hopefully the technology and logistics for a single shot hyperspace laser and not the multi-target version from TFA still requires far too many resources for the First Order to have rebuilt in the year since TLJ. Likewise with the sun drainer (which always seemed like the scarier weapon).
Late to the party, but yeah, the bombers looked incredibly dumb and not cool, HOWEVER, they would really work in a X-wing Vs Tie fighter game, where all torpedos not launched 2 meters away from the target gets intercepted.
No, but only because capital ships carrying anti-starfighter lasers (and ONLY those lasers--look it up, they cut a lot of corners in those games) could shoot both the bombs and the bombers down.
(I'm just here for the Totally Games reference.)
Heavy bombs were in the game, although they worked like dive bombers, I remember them being pretty effective. But it might have been some add-on, or expansion.
Did somebody start talking about space fighting tactics based on WWII archetypes? Well allow me to see my way in.
In the book Fast Tanks and Heavy Bombers David Johnson examines how America entered WWII about as ill-equipped as possible. Compared to the Axis Air Forces, American and British Air Forces our heavy stock in the concept of Strategic Bombing: the act of flying over enemy controlled territory to strike at their centers of gravity. Things like their leadership, war production centers, and barracks. In this way a military could circumvent the entirety of the ground forces and (more) swiftly defeat the enemy with less total cost of life and resources (on both sides). It should come as no surprise to any student of history that this was also politically motivated: the US Army Air Corps beholden to Army General Headquarters and paid its pound of flesh to supporting the ground forces. Strategic Bombing would be its ticket to total independence from the Army (which did indeed happen, though we still pay our pound of flesh to Close Air Support).
In order to support Strategic Bombing, the Allies built large heavy bombers like the B-17 Flying Fortress, and developed tactics for it to fly unsupported deep into enemy territory and deliver its payload with “pickle barrel” accuracy. It’s important to note that these tactics were theoretical at this point: the Luftwaffe had experience with both close air support and strategic bombing but used medium fighter/bombers and dive bomb tactics which were both more accurate and survivable but had extremely limited payloads. When Americans boldly decided to conduct their daylight raids they very quickly realized the tactical error they made: it was in many ways similar to what we see in The Last Jedi, though considerably less effective at destroying their intended targets. Despite this the Allies persisted with the tactics, refining both their bomber formations and their fighters until they were able to provide long-range escorts (most notably in the form of the P-51). The P-51 was also equipped with bombs and did its fair share of dive bombing (though mostly in a close air support and air interdiction role).
So how does this all relate to Star Wars? Well, dive-bombing medium fighters are super important. And when I saw all the A-wings embedded in the Resistance Bomber formations instead of doing a sweep out in front... well, I think what the Last Jedi wanted out of that scene was extremely telegraphed anyway, but I had a reasonable idea of what should happen and wasn’t disappointed.
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Oh, hey let’s talk about bombs! And for the record I never gave a shit if the Resistance Bombers dropped their weapons ballistically or whatever: they acted how I would expect them to.
So WWI airplanes were largely symbolic for all the effectiveness they had. When the war began bombsights had yet to be developed: they relied largely on literally dropping small bomblets by hand directly from the canopy.
Even after their development things like ballistics and wind effects were poorly understood. Strafing was almost as dangerous to the pilots themselves as they were to their targets. Still certain visionaries understood the value in strategic and tactical bombing and started developing the weapons and platforms to carry them.
So when we consider bombing something we need to determine what effects we want. We might decide that killing the operators or disabling the movement or weaponry of a piece of equipment meets our needs, or we might determine that only total destruction of the equipment will suffice. Bombs effects are generally classified into three categories: Blast (violent over pressure produced by the explosive), incendiary, and fragmentation. “Soft targets” (a euphemism generally for people and unarmored vehicles) are pretty vulnerable to all three, but your weapon might have a larger or smaller kill radius depending on how it’s designed. Modern bombs have the ability to be programmed in the air for different effects, and one of the things I’ve had to study is which selections are most effective in a given situation. “Hardened targets” are generally resistant to frag, requiring either penetrating warheads or other specialized effects (such as a Shaped Charge) to be effective. Even then a shaped charge is only effective against a relatively small target (like a tank). Something the size of a WWII battleship would be a much more difficult target (though still not impossible).
One would assume that something the size of a First Order Dreadnought would be extremely resistant to conventional weaponry. Even if we assume that a Proton Torpedo is similar to a HEAT round, the amount of damage a single weapon could do against it would be minimal: to really take one out would require lots of weapons, or maybe a really big one. Also it would require knowing where the critical areas are... though that doesn’t really seem to be a problem in Star Wars (as evidenced by Kylo’s run on the Raddus). So with regard to the bomblets The Resistance Bombers drop, I wouldn’t have expected them to be that effective: they lack any sort of penetrating effects. Looking at their Wookiepeedia description, they seem to function as a kind of nuclear warhead though, so maybe they worked by vaporizing the successive layers of armor until they got to the nice juicy center of wherever the engine compartment was. Regardless, quantity has a quality all of its own, and this is largely true in warfare as well.
Now as to what GONG-00 suggests... well, I don’t disagree, but generally Star Wars keeps a thin veneer of a WWII simulacrum as the rules that govern its space physics. Applying more real-world thought to it breaks it down very quickly. I mean, that doesn’t stop me or anyone else from doing it, but I find that in order to enjoy it I’ve got to push the big “I believe” button and just pretend I’m watching some of the old 1950s WWII movies I used to enjoy with my grandpa.
I've seen that exact scene so many times, but with B-17s and Messerschmitts, I was just waiting for the Inevitable Close-Formation Fratricide. And then it happened, followed by the mortally wounded bomber crew struggling to drop their load on Stuttgart the Imp flagship. You're right; it couldn't have been more telegraphed if they'd sent it Western Union.
Does the scene make tactical sense? Screw that, we're copying homaging a classic movie bit here!
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
I am looking forward to the big space combat shake-up in Rise of Skywalker. The widespread use of hyper missiles or hyper drones as ordinance is going to bring an awesome change up to the space comabt scenes that were honestly becoming a bit stale. Its also some pretty good looking eye candy that really stands out and should make for some good shots that aren't just a confused mess of red and green flashing lights that are hard to follow.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
I am looking forward to the big space combat shake-up in Rise of Skywalker. The widespread use of hyper missiles or hyper drones as ordinance is going to bring an awesome change up to the space comabt scenes that were honestly becoming a bit stale. Its also some pretty good looking eye candy that really stands out and should make for some good shots that aren't just a confused mess of red and green flashing lights that are hard to follow.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
The ships shattering effect is what is going to look really cool. I'm not expecting something on the scale of a full capital ship, but given the size ratios, throwing something the size of a xwing or even just the cockpit area at a smaller capital ship should produce some pretty impressive shattered ships. I am assuming that the washed out colours were something done for effect, but if they are going to include it as part of the graphical effect then just little washed out areas sprinkled throughout the battlefield could vary things up. It's the type of thing that is going to change up how space combat is handled in the movies going forward, so I am eagerly looking forward to what they do with the big shake-up and hope they take the opportunity to be creative with it.
0
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I don't think we're going to see hyperspace used like that again.
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
I am looking forward to the big space combat shake-up in Rise of Skywalker. The widespread use of hyper missiles or hyper drones as ordinance is going to bring an awesome change up to the space comabt scenes that were honestly becoming a bit stale. Its also some pretty good looking eye candy that really stands out and should make for some good shots that aren't just a confused mess of red and green flashing lights that are hard to follow.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
The ships shattering effect is what is going to look really cool. I'm not expecting something on the scale of a full capital ship, but given the size ratios, throwing something the size of a xwing or even just the cockpit area at a smaller capital ship should produce some pretty impressive shattered ships. I am assuming that the washed out colours were something done for effect, but if they are going to include it as part of the graphical effect then just little washed out areas sprinkled throughout the battlefield could vary things up. It's the type of thing that is going to change up how space combat is handled in the movies going forward, so I am eagerly looking forward to what they do with the big shake-up and hope they take the opportunity to be creative with it.
The problem is that any ship smaller than the First Order Massive Overcompensation is almost certainly going to be able to move out of the way of an incoming ship before it can make a successful hyperspace ram attack.
I don't think it's going to be as big a shake up to the book of space war fare tactics as some people imagine. No more so than the Death Stars really shook things up by strapping a planet killing super laser to a giant target.
They're new, and undeniably effective at a specific role, but the counter to that new and effective weapon isn't particularly difficult to come across.
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I hope that is where Rise is going. That's kinda where I thought Luke would be to start the ST. It's a living religion and he was the last practitioner, made sense that his views would bring passion back. My fear is that Rey will learn to use the Dark without falling to it.
Luke does (in RotJ he force chokes a pig man).
I mean Luke in TLJ was pushing a pretty hard grey jedi vibe. He doesnt define a good and bad force simply a life and death force, both needed for life to continue.
But this is more because they redefined* the light side to be acting with good intention and the dark side to be acting with bad intention. The powers you use dont make you good or bad its how you use them. Yoda uses force lightning for goodness sakes!
*didnt actually redefine it; its been this way textually forever but not explicitly stated
I feel like its always been that way except its hard to act with good intention when using the force for destruction, which is what Force Lightning, Choke, etc are primarily used for. So Jedi avoided using force techniques that could lead down the path to the dark side as a precaution more than a hard line of "this power is the dark side and this power is the light side".
My assumption has been that the light side involves working with the Force, while the dark side involves overwriting the will of the Force with your own. The differences in "powers" are just which things can be more easily done in each way. Some schools of philosophy on the Force would claim that overwriting parts of it would be a moral atrocity while others would see it as morally neutral, but regardless of that wielding the dark side does require you to have a mindset where your will is more important than anything else. That may actually be true in many cases, but it's a dangerous mindset to settle into.
Force Lightning probably compels the Force to do something damaging to itself that it would never choose to do, which is why it's considered a dark side technique. Yoda's trick with the lightning was probably just rearranging molecules in the air, which is the kind of thing that would be too complex to pull off without the Force acting semi-independently.
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
Dive bombing is a lot of fun, but the reason it exists is to 1) minimize the distance the bomb needs to fall and 2) be able to see the target visually through the site (or HUD in modern platforms). Also you need to recover the jet afterwards and no sim I've played has accurately depicted what a real recover looks like, much less feels like. For the first few moments you're not actually arresting your fall, and you have to put massive G on the jet to do a proper recovery.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
Hard disagree! The tension is knowing that if you don't get that lock and shoot in time you're going to die! edit: visually you can depict that in the same way you do with Submarine combat: you focus on the pilot saying "Come on, come on!" add the sound effects of the RWR warbling, maybe hear his wingman ask over the radio in a strained voice, "Status?!"
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
I am looking forward to the big space combat shake-up in Rise of Skywalker. The widespread use of hyper missiles or hyper drones as ordinance is going to bring an awesome change up to the space comabt scenes that were honestly becoming a bit stale. Its also some pretty good looking eye candy that really stands out and should make for some good shots that aren't just a confused mess of red and green flashing lights that are hard to follow.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
The ships shattering effect is what is going to look really cool. I'm not expecting something on the scale of a full capital ship, but given the size ratios, throwing something the size of a xwing or even just the cockpit area at a smaller capital ship should produce some pretty impressive shattered ships. I am assuming that the washed out colours were something done for effect, but if they are going to include it as part of the graphical effect then just little washed out areas sprinkled throughout the battlefield could vary things up. It's the type of thing that is going to change up how space combat is handled in the movies going forward, so I am eagerly looking forward to what they do with the big shake-up and hope they take the opportunity to be creative with it.
The problem is that any ship smaller than the First Order Massive Overcompensation is almost certainly going to be able to move out of the way of an incoming ship before it can make a successful hyperspace ram attack.
I don't think it's going to be as big a shake up to the book of space war fare tactics as some people imagine. No more so than the Death Stars really shook things up by strapping a planet killing super laser to a giant target.
They're new, and undeniably effective at a specific role, but the counter to that new and effective weapon isn't particularly difficult to come across.
That would be disappointing. In TLJ the hyperspace ram attack did a pretty good job at taking out the Star Destroyers as well and given the distance and speed of the hyperspace jump I don't really see how easy it is going to be able to dodge them, given that they can't dodge slower moving missiles/torpedoes. I'm also not thinking about throwing full capital ship size ordinance at the target, but smaller craft given they showed the hyperspace attack working much like how a kinetic kill weapon has been shown in other media.
I agree that an easy out on the hyperspace laser would be to require an absolutely massive power plant/support systems or required rare and hard to obtain components. This increases the likelihood of Death Star 4 if they want to reprise its role, which would be a bit repetitive and I hope they do something else.
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Regarding rule of cool, I agree, although TLJ introducing hyperspace kinetic kill weapons into the setting is something I expect to see again since it was so effective and didn't rely on any sort of 1 time setup. Also, the director said that it was the first time this type of attack had been done and that no one had come up with this approach before Holdo. That says to me like it should be something that will impact the setting, even if they just address it via the countermeasures/defenses.
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
I am looking forward to the big space combat shake-up in Rise of Skywalker. The widespread use of hyper missiles or hyper drones as ordinance is going to bring an awesome change up to the space comabt scenes that were honestly becoming a bit stale. Its also some pretty good looking eye candy that really stands out and should make for some good shots that aren't just a confused mess of red and green flashing lights that are hard to follow.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
The ships shattering effect is what is going to look really cool. I'm not expecting something on the scale of a full capital ship, but given the size ratios, throwing something the size of a xwing or even just the cockpit area at a smaller capital ship should produce some pretty impressive shattered ships. I am assuming that the washed out colours were something done for effect, but if they are going to include it as part of the graphical effect then just little washed out areas sprinkled throughout the battlefield could vary things up. It's the type of thing that is going to change up how space combat is handled in the movies going forward, so I am eagerly looking forward to what they do with the big shake-up and hope they take the opportunity to be creative with it.
The problem is that any ship smaller than the First Order Massive Overcompensation is almost certainly going to be able to move out of the way of an incoming ship before it can make a successful hyperspace ram attack.
I don't think it's going to be as big a shake up to the book of space war fare tactics as some people imagine. No more so than the Death Stars really shook things up by strapping a planet killing super laser to a giant target.
They're new, and undeniably effective at a specific role, but the counter to that new and effective weapon isn't particularly difficult to come across.
That would be disappointing. In TLJ the hyperspace ram attack did a pretty good job at taking out the Star Destroyers as well and given the distance and speed of the hyperspace jump I don't really see how easy it is going to be able to dodge them, given that they can't dodge slower moving missiles/torpedoes. I'm also not thinking about throwing full capital ship size ordinance at the target, but smaller craft given they showed the hyperspace attack working much like how a kinetic kill weapon has been shown in other media.
I agree that an easy out on the hyperspace laser would be to require an absolutely massive power plant/support systems or required rare and hard to obtain components. This increases the likelihood of Death Star 4 if they want to reprise its role, which would be a bit repetitive and I hope they do something else.
It was specifically shown that the First Order detected the hyperdrive charging well before the jump actually happened, but completely ignored it in favour of continuing to destroy the transport.
I think the intention was to show that the Raddus could have been trivially destroyed had they actually recognised the threat. So really what Holdo did was remove running as a option for engaged forces, as any hyperdrive charge can be considered an act of aggression and a valid military target.
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I hope that is where Rise is going. That's kinda where I thought Luke would be to start the ST. It's a living religion and he was the last practitioner, made sense that his views would bring passion back. My fear is that Rey will learn to use the Dark without falling to it.
Luke does (in RotJ he force chokes a pig man).
I mean Luke in TLJ was pushing a pretty hard grey jedi vibe. He doesnt define a good and bad force simply a life and death force, both needed for life to continue.
But this is more because they redefined* the light side to be acting with good intention and the dark side to be acting with bad intention. The powers you use dont make you good or bad its how you use them. Yoda uses force lightning for goodness sakes!
*didnt actually redefine it; its been this way textually forever but not explicitly stated
I feel like its always been that way except its hard to act with good intention when using the force for destruction, which is what Force Lightning, Choke, etc are primarily used for. So Jedi avoided using force techniques that could lead down the path to the dark side as a precaution more than a hard line of "this power is the dark side and this power is the light side".
My assumption has been that the light side involves working with the Force, while the dark side involves overwriting the will of the Force with your own. The differences in "powers" are just which things can be more easily done in each way. Some schools of philosophy on the Force would claim that overwriting parts of it would be a moral atrocity while others would see it as morally neutral, but regardless of that wielding the dark side does require you to have a mindset where your will is more important than anything else. That may actually be true in many cases, but it's a dangerous mindset to settle into.
Force Lightning probably compels the Force to do something damaging to itself that it would never choose to do, which is why it's considered a dark side technique. Yoda's trick with the lightning was probably just rearranging molecules in the air, which is the kind of thing that would be too complex to pull off without the Force acting semi-independently.
Nah. Its Hippies in space. Dummy*. We're going to win by saving what we love, not killing what we hate. If you're acting with good emotion good things happen. If you're acting with bad emotion bad things happen. Its not only consistent with the movies but its also consistent with the influences operating on Lucas as he wrote the structure.
There is also a bit of meta movie production thrown in. The force is the force of plot. The bad guy has it because they are the bad guy and they have to have it. The good guy similarly. The force works through all characters because it must, because the plot of heroes demands it. Its not luck, and the force works exactly like that. (See corollary number 1: Han is always wrong about the force)
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Nah, they explicitly mention how its suicide and isn't likely to work.
*Please note, i am not actually calling you a dummy. I am using the line for dramatic effect
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
At which point they're in range of defensive batteries. Holdo only works once really.
I'm a bit confused about the defensive battery comment. Wouldn't that equally apply to torpedoes? Star Wars engagement distances are really short (to match the WWII aesthetic), so if defensive batteries worked for hyperjumps I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for hyperdrones/hyper missiles.
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Nah, they explicitly mention how its suicide and isn't likely to work.
Yeah, but it worked which means either there was something special about the planet (you could argue that the mass wasn't high enough). Running into the planet being a danger is a bit different from the old rule that intense gravity wells would pull you out of hyperspace. Then again, that is possibly something that the EU came up with and you could always fly into a planet if you so desired just by deactivating your safeties/misplotting your jump. Which would make people seem pretty cavalier about the dangers of jumping in close to a planet, but I can buy that they are going for the fantasy approach and not the sci-fi approach.
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
At which point they're in range of defensive batteries. Holdo only works once really.
I'm a bit confused about the defensive battery comment. Wouldn't that equally apply to torpedoes? Star Wars engagement distances are really short (to match the WWII aesthetic), so if defensive batteries worked for hyperjumps I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for hyperdrones/hyper missiles.
It would. Hyperdrones/missiles do not work, they will be destroyed by defensive batteries.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Nah, they explicitly mention how its suicide and isn't likely to work.
Yeah, but it worked which means either there was something special about the planet (you could argue that the mass wasn't high enough). Running into the planet being a danger is a bit different from the old rule that intense gravity wells would pull you out of hyperspace. Then again, that is possibly something that the EU came up with and you could always fly into a planet if you so desired just by deactivating your safeties/misplotting your jump. Which would make people seem pretty cavalier about the dangers of jumping in close to a planet, but I can buy that they are going for the fantasy approach and not the sci-fi approach.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. The old rule was "you have to be careful, traveling through hyperspace is not like dusting crops, without precise coordinates you'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova"
If you're close enough to a planet that the gravity well takes you out of hyperspace you're probably inside the planet. The Jump was insane because you have to come out of hyperspace behind the shield but not inside the planet. It was never posited anywhere that such a thing would be impossible because you could not get close to the planet.
Which is to say that it worked because Han Solo is such a great pilot/The Force.
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
At which point they're in range of defensive batteries. Holdo only works once really.
I'm a bit confused about the defensive battery comment. Wouldn't that equally apply to torpedoes? Star Wars engagement distances are really short (to match the WWII aesthetic), so if defensive batteries worked for hyperjumps I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for hyperdrones/hyper missiles.
It would. Hyperdrones/missiles do not work, they will be destroyed by defensive batteries.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Nah, they explicitly mention how its suicide and isn't likely to work.
Yeah, but it worked which means either there was something special about the planet (you could argue that the mass wasn't high enough). Running into the planet being a danger is a bit different from the old rule that intense gravity wells would pull you out of hyperspace. Then again, that is possibly something that the EU came up with and you could always fly into a planet if you so desired just by deactivating your safeties/misplotting your jump. Which would make people seem pretty cavalier about the dangers of jumping in close to a planet, but I can buy that they are going for the fantasy approach and not the sci-fi approach.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. The old rule was "you have to be careful, traveling through hyperspace is not like dusting crops, without precise coordinates you'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova"
If you're close enough to a planet that the gravity well takes you out of hyperspace you're probably inside the planet. The Jump was insane because you have to come out of hyperspace behind the shield but not inside the planet. It was never posited anywhere that such a thing would be impossible because you could not get close to the planet.
Which is to say that it worked because Han Solo is such a great pilot/The Force.
On the first part, why do they have proton torpedoes and concussion missiles if they will get shot down by defensive batteries?
If batteries are such a big hard counter to missiles, I guess you'd want to take them out first before doing your bombing run/missile strike like Poe did for the slow moving slow firing bombers at the start of TLJ. It seems like the hyper drone might be a more a more cost effective approach.
I'm fine with space bombs since the delivery vehicle can impart its momentum on the payload and the lack of a propulsion system could make them harder to detect. I can imagine a group of space bombers dropping out of hyperspace outside the sensor range of a relatively stationary target, release their bombs, then go jump back to light speed while physics takes care of the rest. Of course, this is not how they are used in TLJ so... *shrugs*
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
I am looking forward to the big space combat shake-up in Rise of Skywalker. The widespread use of hyper missiles or hyper drones as ordinance is going to bring an awesome change up to the space comabt scenes that were honestly becoming a bit stale. Its also some pretty good looking eye candy that really stands out and should make for some good shots that aren't just a confused mess of red and green flashing lights that are hard to follow.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
The ships shattering effect is what is going to look really cool. I'm not expecting something on the scale of a full capital ship, but given the size ratios, throwing something the size of a xwing or even just the cockpit area at a smaller capital ship should produce some pretty impressive shattered ships. I am assuming that the washed out colours were something done for effect, but if they are going to include it as part of the graphical effect then just little washed out areas sprinkled throughout the battlefield could vary things up. It's the type of thing that is going to change up how space combat is handled in the movies going forward, so I am eagerly looking forward to what they do with the big shake-up and hope they take the opportunity to be creative with it.
The problem is that any ship smaller than the First Order Massive Overcompensation is almost certainly going to be able to move out of the way of an incoming ship before it can make a successful hyperspace ram attack.
I don't think it's going to be as big a shake up to the book of space war fare tactics as some people imagine. No more so than the Death Stars really shook things up by strapping a planet killing super laser to a giant target.
They're new, and undeniably effective at a specific role, but the counter to that new and effective weapon isn't particularly difficult to come across.
That would be disappointing. In TLJ the hyperspace ram attack did a pretty good job at taking out the Star Destroyers as well and given the distance and speed of the hyperspace jump I don't really see how easy it is going to be able to dodge them, given that they can't dodge slower moving missiles/torpedoes. I'm also not thinking about throwing full capital ship size ordinance at the target, but smaller craft given they showed the hyperspace attack working much like how a kinetic kill weapon has been shown in other media.
I agree that an easy out on the hyperspace laser would be to require an absolutely massive power plant/support systems or required rare and hard to obtain components. This increases the likelihood of Death Star 4 if they want to reprise its role, which would be a bit repetitive and I hope they do something else.
It was specifically shown that the First Order detected the hyperdrive charging well before the jump actually happened, but completely ignored it in favour of continuing to destroy the transport.
I think the intention was to show that the Raddus could have been trivially destroyed had they actually recognised the threat. So really what Holdo did was remove running as a option for engaged forces, as any hyperdrive charge can be considered an act of aggression and a valid military target.
This is Star Wars and it's the First Order.
Why would they not be firing on all ships all the time anyway regardless of hyperdrive. There aren't war crimes or rules of engagement.
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
At which point they're in range of defensive batteries. Holdo only works once really.
I'm a bit confused about the defensive battery comment. Wouldn't that equally apply to torpedoes? Star Wars engagement distances are really short (to match the WWII aesthetic), so if defensive batteries worked for hyperjumps I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for hyperdrones/hyper missiles.
It would. Hyperdrones/missiles do not work, they will be destroyed by defensive batteries.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Nah, they explicitly mention how its suicide and isn't likely to work.
Yeah, but it worked which means either there was something special about the planet (you could argue that the mass wasn't high enough). Running into the planet being a danger is a bit different from the old rule that intense gravity wells would pull you out of hyperspace. Then again, that is possibly something that the EU came up with and you could always fly into a planet if you so desired just by deactivating your safeties/misplotting your jump. Which would make people seem pretty cavalier about the dangers of jumping in close to a planet, but I can buy that they are going for the fantasy approach and not the sci-fi approach.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. The old rule was "you have to be careful, traveling through hyperspace is not like dusting crops, without precise coordinates you'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova"
If you're close enough to a planet that the gravity well takes you out of hyperspace you're probably inside the planet. The Jump was insane because you have to come out of hyperspace behind the shield but not inside the planet. It was never posited anywhere that such a thing would be impossible because you could not get close to the planet.
Which is to say that it worked because Han Solo is such a great pilot/The Force.
On the first part, why do they have proton torpedoes and concussion missiles if they will get shot down by defensive batteries?
If batteries are such a big hard counter to missiles, I guess you'd want to take them out first before doing your bombing run/missile strike like Poe did for the slow moving slow firing bombers at the start of TLJ. It seems like the hyper drone might be a more a more cost effective approach.
Agreed on the second paragraph.
Because if you clear out the defensive batteries you dont need to waste a hyperdrive on the target. (Also no telling if it would have enough mass to get things done)
Given how cheap ships like the Falcon are in setting, hyperdrives aren't that expensive (Luke sells his speeder to pay for their fares in A New Hope, and comments for the price that Han is asking for passage, they could pretty much buy their own ship). Also, you seem to be able to aim and fire hyperdrive warheads them at a much longer range than the bombers needed in TLJ, which hopefully means you get less of your own people killed.
As for the mass, that's probably a good question, though it might mean that you don't want to use a small fighter sized warhead for a Super Star Destroyer. You also don't need to completely wipe them out in a single shot. Even just taking out a big chunk of a ship or a section of a ship could be a worthwhile tradeoff. If you can put a hyperdrive on an asteroid or space rock of some sort that could help with the mass. We don't really know how difficult that stuff is to get to work, although apparently you can hollow out a planet and put thrusters/hyperdrives on them, then drive them around with an atmosphere as is done in TFA.
Anyways, I'll be disappointed if they never show the hyperdrive weapons again, it is a very striking image and makes the space combat a lot more dynamic. I know a lot of people weren't big fans of TLJ, but I'd prefer it if they don't just toss out all the good innovations and ideas.
I get you don't like missile/torpedo weapons in Star Wars, but they have existed ever since the original movie. Tie Fighters don't seem to be able to shoot down the proton torpedoes in the original movies and the hyperdrive missiles appear to go a lot faster. Turbo Lasers are not light speed weapons either, so I'm still not sold on the idea that you can just shoot down the missiles as easily as you are suggesting.
The advantage of a hyperdrive weapon as shown in The Last Jedi, is it has a much, much longer range than the bombers. You appear to be able to do large amounts of damage with a much smaller expenditure of resources and Even if I give you that they need to clear out defensive batteries first your capital ship killing crew/forces are much less exposed when doing so, compared to the bombers.
0
Options
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Ships at full light speed dont exist in real soace and only planet sized gravitational wells effect them. You have to hit on the acceleration.
At which point they're in range of defensive batteries. Holdo only works once really.
I'm a bit confused about the defensive battery comment. Wouldn't that equally apply to torpedoes? Star Wars engagement distances are really short (to match the WWII aesthetic), so if defensive batteries worked for hyperjumps I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for hyperdrones/hyper missiles.
It would. Hyperdrones/missiles do not work, they will be destroyed by defensive batteries.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Nah, they explicitly mention how its suicide and isn't likely to work.
Yeah, but it worked which means either there was something special about the planet (you could argue that the mass wasn't high enough). Running into the planet being a danger is a bit different from the old rule that intense gravity wells would pull you out of hyperspace. Then again, that is possibly something that the EU came up with and you could always fly into a planet if you so desired just by deactivating your safeties/misplotting your jump. Which would make people seem pretty cavalier about the dangers of jumping in close to a planet, but I can buy that they are going for the fantasy approach and not the sci-fi approach.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. The old rule was "you have to be careful, traveling through hyperspace is not like dusting crops, without precise coordinates you'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova"
If you're close enough to a planet that the gravity well takes you out of hyperspace you're probably inside the planet. The Jump was insane because you have to come out of hyperspace behind the shield but not inside the planet. It was never posited anywhere that such a thing would be impossible because you could not get close to the planet.
Which is to say that it worked because Han Solo is such a great pilot/The Force.
On the first part, why do they have proton torpedoes and concussion missiles if they will get shot down by defensive batteries?
If batteries are such a big hard counter to missiles, I guess you'd want to take them out first before doing your bombing run/missile strike like Poe did for the slow moving slow firing bombers at the start of TLJ. It seems like the hyper drone might be a more a more cost effective approach.
Agreed on the second paragraph.
Because if you clear out the defensive batteries you dont need to waste a hyperdrive on the target. (Also no telling if it would have enough mass to get things done)
If you just use the hyperdrive weapon in the first shot, you win and there's no risk of getting shot up by anything. Further, hyperdrive involves some amount of moving up to near lightspeed; even at a mere 10% of light speed as it ramps up to jump, an X-wing would hit with approximately one thousand times the energy of the first atom bombs. Mass rapidly becomes irrelevant at the velocities involved with any significant percentage of light speed.
And there are piles of hyperdrive-equipped fighters and ships all over the place, there is no indication at all that hyperdrives are at all rare or expensive compared to a ship. If the entire history of the setting didn't have an in-built reason for hyperdrive suicide attacks to not work, then every last space combat in the setting would also be determined by hyperspace drone missile fights. There would be no fucking point to torpedoes or counterbatteries or fighters or anything, because any large ship could easily carry enough drones to overwhelm the defenses of any single ship shown in Star Wars. Aiming wouldn't even be hard, you could eyeball it since you don't care if the weapons come out of hyperspace somewhere else if they miss. Heck, make the weapons explode as they jump to hyperspace and you've got cheap, easy space shotguns that could knock out a ship with each shot.
If a hyperspace missile works in TLJ simply because nobody in the other movies or shows actually sat down and explicitly said "hyperdrive attacks don't work because that's what shields are for" (despite the long-running implicit indication that that's what half the damn point of shields), then I look forward to Godzilla showing up as a Jedi. It's never been explicitly stated in the setting that he doesn't exist, so clearly it's possible nobody has thought of just going over and getting him yet.
Yanno, I just realized those games accidentally taught a whole bunch of us how to dive bomb just by virtue of necessity due to needing to figure out how to get those things on target without us or them getting shot down. Boost speed up as much as possible, get in close, release, and GTFO.
Dive bombing is a lot of fun, but the reason it exists is to 1) minimize the distance the bomb needs to fall and 2) be able to see the target visually through the site (or HUD in modern platforms). Also you need to recover the jet afterwards and no sim I've played has accurately depicted what a real recover looks like, much less feels like. For the first few moments you're not actually arresting your fall, and you have to put massive G on the jet to do a proper recovery.
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
Hard disagree! The tension is knowing that if you don't get that lock and shoot in time you're going to die! edit: visually you can depict that in the same way you do with Submarine combat: you focus on the pilot saying "Come on, come on!" add the sound effects of the RWR warbling, maybe hear his wingman ask over the radio in a strained voice, "Status?!"
I don't think we're going to see hyperspace used like that again.
I refuse to talk at all about the Holdo Maneuver other than to say it was the most visually striking scene in the movie.
Yeah, but this is in terms of a movie action scene. Sub scenes are tense but they're an entirely different animal in a movie that's usually a slower paced character movie or political thriller where even then it's much more focused on the people inside of the machine and how they're dealing with all that unknown. Two subs shooting at each other isn't visually exciting, what makes them good is that pure fear of being inside a can and just hearing those pings and hoping for the best. Similarly, I can't think of a modern movie featuring BVR plane combat precisely because it just doesn't make for a good action scene. A submarines in space sort of movie would be a very, very different animal from what Star Wars is. It'd be more like how you read 40k capital ship fights going down.
As far as the dive bombing thing goes, I've done it in IL-2 but not in a modern jet sim just because modern planes look cool but I find them to be pretty boring to fly. My dive bomb comment was confined to the X-Wing games. Space bombs are slow as shit and easy to shoot down so by sheer virtue of necessity you tended to learn to get in, launch, and pull out without eating shit in the process to ensure that your limited payload made contact which ends up functioning like an arcade dive bomb run. Yeah, in a WW2 plane you need to avoid overspeeding or you're gonna either lawndart or break-up but it still brings back my fun kid feels of launching space bombs into things.
Posts
I mean, the prophecy being a lie by Palpatine would be an interesting way to go, but yeah, Force Jesus was dumb as all get out, and "balance" in that way was nonsensical.
Luke does (in RotJ he force chokes a pig man).
I mean Luke in TLJ was pushing a pretty hard grey jedi vibe. He doesnt define a good and bad force simply a life and death force, both needed for life to continue.
But this is more because they redefined* the light side to be acting with good intention and the dark side to be acting with bad intention. The powers you use dont make you good or bad its how you use them. Yoda uses force lightning for goodness sakes!
*didnt actually redefine it; its been this way textually forever but not explicitly stated
because lens flares cause the highlights of an image to be overexposed/blown out!!
I feel like its always been that way except its hard to act with good intention when using the force for destruction, which is what Force Lightning, Choke, etc are primarily used for. So Jedi avoided using force techniques that could lead down the path to the dark side as a precaution more than a hard line of "this power is the dark side and this power is the light side".
The Light-ning side of the Force
No, but only because capital ships carrying anti-starfighter lasers (and ONLY those lasers--look it up, they cut a lot of corners in those games) could shoot both the bombs and the bombers down.
(I'm just here for the Totally Games reference.)
Heavy bombs were in the game, although they worked like dive bombers, I remember them being pretty effective. But it might have been some add-on, or expansion.
The heavy bombs were always in TIE fighter, though (IIRC) the heavy rockets got you more bang for your buck since you could carry more of them then the bombs.
The trick (if you want to call it that) was to drop the bombs and then change course to get away from the bombs so the ship you were targeting wouldn't accidentally hit your bombs when it was targeting you.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
I am afraid though that the hyperspace laser from The Force Awakens will basically eliminate any large capital ship engagements, although I guess they could go with something like the Return of the Jedi space battle where they have to engage at point blank range. Hopefully the technology and logistics for a single shot hyperspace laser and not the multi-target version from TFA still requires far too many resources for the First Order to have rebuilt in the year since TLJ. Likewise with the sun drainer (which always seemed like the scarier weapon).
Did somebody start talking about space fighting tactics based on WWII archetypes? Well allow me to see my way in.
In the book Fast Tanks and Heavy Bombers David Johnson examines how America entered WWII about as ill-equipped as possible. Compared to the Axis Air Forces, American and British Air Forces our heavy stock in the concept of Strategic Bombing: the act of flying over enemy controlled territory to strike at their centers of gravity. Things like their leadership, war production centers, and barracks. In this way a military could circumvent the entirety of the ground forces and (more) swiftly defeat the enemy with less total cost of life and resources (on both sides). It should come as no surprise to any student of history that this was also politically motivated: the US Army Air Corps beholden to Army General Headquarters and paid its pound of flesh to supporting the ground forces. Strategic Bombing would be its ticket to total independence from the Army (which did indeed happen, though we still pay our pound of flesh to Close Air Support).
In order to support Strategic Bombing, the Allies built large heavy bombers like the B-17 Flying Fortress, and developed tactics for it to fly unsupported deep into enemy territory and deliver its payload with “pickle barrel” accuracy. It’s important to note that these tactics were theoretical at this point: the Luftwaffe had experience with both close air support and strategic bombing but used medium fighter/bombers and dive bomb tactics which were both more accurate and survivable but had extremely limited payloads. When Americans boldly decided to conduct their daylight raids they very quickly realized the tactical error they made: it was in many ways similar to what we see in The Last Jedi, though considerably less effective at destroying their intended targets. Despite this the Allies persisted with the tactics, refining both their bomber formations and their fighters until they were able to provide long-range escorts (most notably in the form of the P-51). The P-51 was also equipped with bombs and did its fair share of dive bombing (though mostly in a close air support and air interdiction role).
So how does this all relate to Star Wars? Well, dive-bombing medium fighters are super important. And when I saw all the A-wings embedded in the Resistance Bomber formations instead of doing a sweep out in front... well, I think what the Last Jedi wanted out of that scene was extremely telegraphed anyway, but I had a reasonable idea of what should happen and wasn’t disappointed.
Oh, hey let’s talk about bombs! And for the record I never gave a shit if the Resistance Bombers dropped their weapons ballistically or whatever: they acted how I would expect them to.
So WWI airplanes were largely symbolic for all the effectiveness they had. When the war began bombsights had yet to be developed: they relied largely on literally dropping small bomblets by hand directly from the canopy.
Even after their development things like ballistics and wind effects were poorly understood. Strafing was almost as dangerous to the pilots themselves as they were to their targets. Still certain visionaries understood the value in strategic and tactical bombing and started developing the weapons and platforms to carry them.
So when we consider bombing something we need to determine what effects we want. We might decide that killing the operators or disabling the movement or weaponry of a piece of equipment meets our needs, or we might determine that only total destruction of the equipment will suffice. Bombs effects are generally classified into three categories: Blast (violent over pressure produced by the explosive), incendiary, and fragmentation. “Soft targets” (a euphemism generally for people and unarmored vehicles) are pretty vulnerable to all three, but your weapon might have a larger or smaller kill radius depending on how it’s designed. Modern bombs have the ability to be programmed in the air for different effects, and one of the things I’ve had to study is which selections are most effective in a given situation. “Hardened targets” are generally resistant to frag, requiring either penetrating warheads or other specialized effects (such as a Shaped Charge) to be effective. Even then a shaped charge is only effective against a relatively small target (like a tank). Something the size of a WWII battleship would be a much more difficult target (though still not impossible).
One would assume that something the size of a First Order Dreadnought would be extremely resistant to conventional weaponry. Even if we assume that a Proton Torpedo is similar to a HEAT round, the amount of damage a single weapon could do against it would be minimal: to really take one out would require lots of weapons, or maybe a really big one. Also it would require knowing where the critical areas are... though that doesn’t really seem to be a problem in Star Wars (as evidenced by Kylo’s run on the Raddus). So with regard to the bomblets The Resistance Bombers drop, I wouldn’t have expected them to be that effective: they lack any sort of penetrating effects. Looking at their Wookiepeedia description, they seem to function as a kind of nuclear warhead though, so maybe they worked by vaporizing the successive layers of armor until they got to the nice juicy center of wherever the engine compartment was. Regardless, quantity has a quality all of its own, and this is largely true in warfare as well.
Now as to what GONG-00 suggests... well, I don’t disagree, but generally Star Wars keeps a thin veneer of a WWII simulacrum as the rules that govern its space physics. Applying more real-world thought to it breaks it down very quickly. I mean, that doesn’t stop me or anyone else from doing it, but I find that in order to enjoy it I’ve got to push the big “I believe” button and just pretend I’m watching some of the old 1950s WWII movies I used to enjoy with my grandpa.
Does the scene make tactical sense? Screw that, we're copying homaging a classic movie bit here!
It was a Giant Enemy Crab.
Hit the weak point for massive damage.
Steam | XBL
This honestly just sounds like modern BVR combat which is pretty damn visually boring tbh. You're just launching missiles at blips on a sensor readout.
The ships shattering effect is what is going to look really cool. I'm not expecting something on the scale of a full capital ship, but given the size ratios, throwing something the size of a xwing or even just the cockpit area at a smaller capital ship should produce some pretty impressive shattered ships. I am assuming that the washed out colours were something done for effect, but if they are going to include it as part of the graphical effect then just little washed out areas sprinkled throughout the battlefield could vary things up. It's the type of thing that is going to change up how space combat is handled in the movies going forward, so I am eagerly looking forward to what they do with the big shake-up and hope they take the opportunity to be creative with it.
The problem is that any ship smaller than the First Order Massive Overcompensation is almost certainly going to be able to move out of the way of an incoming ship before it can make a successful hyperspace ram attack.
I don't think it's going to be as big a shake up to the book of space war fare tactics as some people imagine. No more so than the Death Stars really shook things up by strapping a planet killing super laser to a giant target.
They're new, and undeniably effective at a specific role, but the counter to that new and effective weapon isn't particularly difficult to come across.
My assumption has been that the light side involves working with the Force, while the dark side involves overwriting the will of the Force with your own. The differences in "powers" are just which things can be more easily done in each way. Some schools of philosophy on the Force would claim that overwriting parts of it would be a moral atrocity while others would see it as morally neutral, but regardless of that wielding the dark side does require you to have a mindset where your will is more important than anything else. That may actually be true in many cases, but it's a dangerous mindset to settle into.
Force Lightning probably compels the Force to do something damaging to itself that it would never choose to do, which is why it's considered a dark side technique. Yoda's trick with the lightning was probably just rearranging molecules in the air, which is the kind of thing that would be too complex to pull off without the Force acting semi-independently.
Itll come up in comics probably but yeah
Dive bombing is a lot of fun, but the reason it exists is to 1) minimize the distance the bomb needs to fall and 2) be able to see the target visually through the site (or HUD in modern platforms). Also you need to recover the jet afterwards and no sim I've played has accurately depicted what a real recover looks like, much less feels like. For the first few moments you're not actually arresting your fall, and you have to put massive G on the jet to do a proper recovery.
Hard disagree! The tension is knowing that if you don't get that lock and shoot in time you're going to die! edit: visually you can depict that in the same way you do with Submarine combat: you focus on the pilot saying "Come on, come on!" add the sound effects of the RWR warbling, maybe hear his wingman ask over the radio in a strained voice, "Status?!"
I refuse to talk at all about the Holdo Maneuver other than to say it was the most visually striking scene in the movie.
That would be disappointing. In TLJ the hyperspace ram attack did a pretty good job at taking out the Star Destroyers as well and given the distance and speed of the hyperspace jump I don't really see how easy it is going to be able to dodge them, given that they can't dodge slower moving missiles/torpedoes. I'm also not thinking about throwing full capital ship size ordinance at the target, but smaller craft given they showed the hyperspace attack working much like how a kinetic kill weapon has been shown in other media.
I agree that an easy out on the hyperspace laser would be to require an absolutely massive power plant/support systems or required rare and hard to obtain components. This increases the likelihood of Death Star 4 if they want to reprise its role, which would be a bit repetitive and I hope they do something else.
I'm not sure about that since TFA had them doing a hyperspace jump right into a planet's atmosphere, so I don't think the old EU rules about gravity wells applies anymore.
Regarding rule of cool, I agree, although TLJ introducing hyperspace kinetic kill weapons into the setting is something I expect to see again since it was so effective and didn't rely on any sort of 1 time setup. Also, the director said that it was the first time this type of attack had been done and that no one had come up with this approach before Holdo. That says to me like it should be something that will impact the setting, even if they just address it via the countermeasures/defenses.
It was specifically shown that the First Order detected the hyperdrive charging well before the jump actually happened, but completely ignored it in favour of continuing to destroy the transport.
I think the intention was to show that the Raddus could have been trivially destroyed had they actually recognised the threat. So really what Holdo did was remove running as a option for engaged forces, as any hyperdrive charge can be considered an act of aggression and a valid military target.
Nah. Its Hippies in space. Dummy*. We're going to win by saving what we love, not killing what we hate. If you're acting with good emotion good things happen. If you're acting with bad emotion bad things happen. Its not only consistent with the movies but its also consistent with the influences operating on Lucas as he wrote the structure.
There is also a bit of meta movie production thrown in. The force is the force of plot. The bad guy has it because they are the bad guy and they have to have it. The good guy similarly. The force works through all characters because it must, because the plot of heroes demands it. Its not luck, and the force works exactly like that. (See corollary number 1: Han is always wrong about the force)
Hippies and Film School. -> The Force.
At which point they're in range of defensive batteries. Holdo only works once really.
Nah, they explicitly mention how its suicide and isn't likely to work.
*Please note, i am not actually calling you a dummy. I am using the line for dramatic effect
I'm a bit confused about the defensive battery comment. Wouldn't that equally apply to torpedoes? Star Wars engagement distances are really short (to match the WWII aesthetic), so if defensive batteries worked for hyperjumps I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for hyperdrones/hyper missiles.
Yeah, but it worked which means either there was something special about the planet (you could argue that the mass wasn't high enough). Running into the planet being a danger is a bit different from the old rule that intense gravity wells would pull you out of hyperspace. Then again, that is possibly something that the EU came up with and you could always fly into a planet if you so desired just by deactivating your safeties/misplotting your jump. Which would make people seem pretty cavalier about the dangers of jumping in close to a planet, but I can buy that they are going for the fantasy approach and not the sci-fi approach.
It would. Hyperdrones/missiles do not work, they will be destroyed by defensive batteries.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. The old rule was "you have to be careful, traveling through hyperspace is not like dusting crops, without precise coordinates you'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova"
If you're close enough to a planet that the gravity well takes you out of hyperspace you're probably inside the planet. The Jump was insane because you have to come out of hyperspace behind the shield but not inside the planet. It was never posited anywhere that such a thing would be impossible because you could not get close to the planet.
Which is to say that it worked because Han Solo is such a great pilot/The Force.
On the first part, why do they have proton torpedoes and concussion missiles if they will get shot down by defensive batteries?
If batteries are such a big hard counter to missiles, I guess you'd want to take them out first before doing your bombing run/missile strike like Poe did for the slow moving slow firing bombers at the start of TLJ. It seems like the hyper drone might be a more a more cost effective approach.
Agreed on the second paragraph.
This is Star Wars and it's the First Order.
Why would they not be firing on all ships all the time anyway regardless of hyperdrive. There aren't war crimes or rules of engagement.
Because if you clear out the defensive batteries you dont need to waste a hyperdrive on the target. (Also no telling if it would have enough mass to get things done)
As for the mass, that's probably a good question, though it might mean that you don't want to use a small fighter sized warhead for a Super Star Destroyer. You also don't need to completely wipe them out in a single shot. Even just taking out a big chunk of a ship or a section of a ship could be a worthwhile tradeoff. If you can put a hyperdrive on an asteroid or space rock of some sort that could help with the mass. We don't really know how difficult that stuff is to get to work, although apparently you can hollow out a planet and put thrusters/hyperdrives on them, then drive them around with an atmosphere as is done in TFA.
Anyways, I'll be disappointed if they never show the hyperdrive weapons again, it is a very striking image and makes the space combat a lot more dynamic. I know a lot of people weren't big fans of TLJ, but I'd prefer it if they don't just toss out all the good innovations and ideas.
The advantage of a hyperdrive weapon as shown in The Last Jedi, is it has a much, much longer range than the bombers. You appear to be able to do large amounts of damage with a much smaller expenditure of resources and Even if I give you that they need to clear out defensive batteries first your capital ship killing crew/forces are much less exposed when doing so, compared to the bombers.
If you just use the hyperdrive weapon in the first shot, you win and there's no risk of getting shot up by anything. Further, hyperdrive involves some amount of moving up to near lightspeed; even at a mere 10% of light speed as it ramps up to jump, an X-wing would hit with approximately one thousand times the energy of the first atom bombs. Mass rapidly becomes irrelevant at the velocities involved with any significant percentage of light speed.
And there are piles of hyperdrive-equipped fighters and ships all over the place, there is no indication at all that hyperdrives are at all rare or expensive compared to a ship. If the entire history of the setting didn't have an in-built reason for hyperdrive suicide attacks to not work, then every last space combat in the setting would also be determined by hyperspace drone missile fights. There would be no fucking point to torpedoes or counterbatteries or fighters or anything, because any large ship could easily carry enough drones to overwhelm the defenses of any single ship shown in Star Wars. Aiming wouldn't even be hard, you could eyeball it since you don't care if the weapons come out of hyperspace somewhere else if they miss. Heck, make the weapons explode as they jump to hyperspace and you've got cheap, easy space shotguns that could knock out a ship with each shot.
If a hyperspace missile works in TLJ simply because nobody in the other movies or shows actually sat down and explicitly said "hyperdrive attacks don't work because that's what shields are for" (despite the long-running implicit indication that that's what half the damn point of shields), then I look forward to Godzilla showing up as a Jedi. It's never been explicitly stated in the setting that he doesn't exist, so clearly it's possible nobody has thought of just going over and getting him yet.
Yeah, but this is in terms of a movie action scene. Sub scenes are tense but they're an entirely different animal in a movie that's usually a slower paced character movie or political thriller where even then it's much more focused on the people inside of the machine and how they're dealing with all that unknown. Two subs shooting at each other isn't visually exciting, what makes them good is that pure fear of being inside a can and just hearing those pings and hoping for the best. Similarly, I can't think of a modern movie featuring BVR plane combat precisely because it just doesn't make for a good action scene. A submarines in space sort of movie would be a very, very different animal from what Star Wars is. It'd be more like how you read 40k capital ship fights going down.
As far as the dive bombing thing goes, I've done it in IL-2 but not in a modern jet sim just because modern planes look cool but I find them to be pretty boring to fly. My dive bomb comment was confined to the X-Wing games. Space bombs are slow as shit and easy to shoot down so by sheer virtue of necessity you tended to learn to get in, launch, and pull out without eating shit in the process to ensure that your limited payload made contact which ends up functioning like an arcade dive bomb run. Yeah, in a WW2 plane you need to avoid overspeeding or you're gonna either lawndart or break-up but it still brings back my fun kid feels of launching space bombs into things.