You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
They did a mostly good job making content aside from all the first person platforming stupidity
spire of the stars is seriously the shittiest gameplay experience i've ever had but other than that they've been pretty okay
Oh yeah my disclaimer is that I only did the first D2 raid before my group stopped playing it
Spire of Stars is tons of fun and then the last boss can eat a giant bag of dicks.
There's a reason back when it was the new raid all the LFG channels were full of "Need 2 more, on last boss".
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i don't know if it's necessarily the case an FPS MMO is more work to design content for than a standard WoW-like (EQ-like!)
MMOs like EQ and WoW have traditionally had content added that those on the top end will plow through relatively quickly and more casual players will take all expansion cycle to play through -- but the content never felt like it was arbitrarily forcing it to take an entire expansion cycle to play through by having all content be time-gated that can only be attempted once every so often
i honestly think the expansion design of a game like destiny 2 was just poorly done and relied too much on skinner box/loot box mechanics. it felt more like a browser game than an actual game, and i was putting a ton of time into the game but couldn't actually accomplish things i was working for because of time locks
EQ/WoW, i can put a ton of time into but i also get rewards out of it for that time in a lot of cases (they both still have shitty RNG-based rewards that it's possible to never actually get)
but it is expected in EQ/WoW type games that expansions come out periodically and that the hardcore players will grind through it quickly and then have to either find other ways to spend their time playing (like rolling alts) or just eventually go do other things until the next expansion comes out
destiny was never designed like that, and was even designed with the intent that you play all three of your alts concurrently
i think it's a mistake to design a game with the intent being you are stringing along your hardest core players with ever-more-elusive carrots on sticks
it's okay to put a game down after you've done everything and then come back to it later
Allegedly a voice of reason.
+1
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
I don't have any problem at all with a license not being eternal when it's companies paying other companies
Abdhyius on
+2
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
example: adobe creative cloud
it used to be i could buy photoshop and then i have photoshop forever
and if a new version of photoshop came out, i could buy the new version with new features and fixes to old features that didn't quite work right
now, i have to subscribe to photoshop indefinitely, and if i stop subscribing to photoshop, i can't use photoshop anymore
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
Even worse, sometimes the middleware used in software as a service is licensed as a service too and the company has to discontinue products people are using and paying for because terms changed or prices went up.
This recently happened to some adobe shit and they sent out notices telling people to stop using shit they paid for or be prosecuted for piracy.
Donkey Kong on
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
example: adobe creative cloud
it used to be i could buy photoshop and then i have photoshop forever
and if a new version of photoshop came out, i could buy the new version with new features and fixes to old features that didn't quite work right
now, i have to subscribe to photoshop indefinitely, and if i stop subscribing to photoshop, i can't use photoshop anymore
Yes but how will we improve our quarterly figures for shareholders if we don't bilk people out of money for literally no reason?
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+2
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
That Avengers game trailer looks like the first-ever sex parody video game
Also it looks fucking terrible. That studio should be shitting themselves.
i don't know if it's necessarily the case an FPS MMO is more work to design content for than a standard WoW-like (EQ-like!)
MMOs like EQ and WoW have traditionally had content added that those on the top end will plow through relatively quickly and more casual players will take all expansion cycle to play through -- but the content never felt like it was arbitrarily forcing it to take an entire expansion cycle to play through by having all content be time-gated that can only be attempted once every so often
i honestly think the expansion design of a game like destiny 2 was just poorly done and relied too much on skinner box/loot box mechanics. it felt more like a browser game than an actual game, and i was putting a ton of time into the game but couldn't actually accomplish things i was working for because of time locks
EQ/WoW, i can put a ton of time into but i also get rewards out of it for that time in a lot of cases (they both still have shitty RNG-based rewards that it's possible to never actually get)
but it is expected in EQ/WoW type games that expansions come out periodically and that the hardcore players will grind through it quickly and then have to either find other ways to spend their time playing (like rolling alts) or just eventually go do other things until the next expansion comes out
destiny was never designed like that, and was even designed with the intent that you play all three of your alts concurrently
i think it's a mistake to design a game with the intent being you are stringing along your hardest core players with ever-more-elusive carrots on sticks
it's okay to put a game down after you've done everything and then come back to it later
Destiny 2 at launch was very much designed around the idea that you would play, leave and then come back for the next content drop. They were explicit about this. The shift in Y2 with Forsaken was entirely because most of the player base hated that. They wanted to play Destiny and they wanted to be given something to do so they had a reason to log in and play.
And I think you are massively underselling the extent to which, say, WoW was a game designed around playing a lot, all the time. WoW basically originated the repeated daily/weekly quest structure that so many of these games (including Destiny) crib from. The games released the same way: level increase, tons of new content to grind away at to get rewards from various kinds of repeated activities. WoW has between expansion content drops with their patches too that added substantial amount of content, like new raids and such. The main difference is that a game like WoW just has way more shit to do with any content drop so there was always something different to wander off and do.
My problem with the modern loot structure is the loss of rarity and "unattainables". There need to be chase items in RPGs for me to be motivated to play. Its why I bounce off WoW after a few hours. And why I bounce off of Diablo 3. They are firmly in this modern everyone can get everything methodology.
I played diablo 2 for like a decade and never got a single SoJ
Psn:wazukki
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
Photoshop had to move to a subscription model because they accidentally made it good enough for 99.9% of users back in the mid 2000s and nobody was upgrading past CS2 or CS3 and the OS makers were frustratingly keeping the software compatible.
Something HAD to be done!
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
+10
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I just wish Destiny had raids that could be done with a smaller fireteam or solo. And were shorter. I ain’t got time for a three-hour jaunt that might end in failure.
My problem with the modern loot structure is the loss of rarity and "unattainables". There need to be chase items in RPGs for me to be motivated to play. Its why I bounce off WoW after a few hours. And why I bounce off of Diablo 2. They are firmly in this modern everyone can get everything methodology.
It just tends to kill gameplay for me.
take this the best way, but, for me, I think you might be satan, the devil, and I really hope that no game design caters to you in this respect ever
SaaS was a dumb idea in 2005 when I first saw it introduced as a concept and it's still dumb in 2019.
ITaaS and IaaS make sense because those are actual commodities that require upkeep and skillsets. I shouldn't need to license the gas tank on my fucking car. But I should be able to pay for a lease or put a mechanic on retainer theoretically.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
My problem with the modern loot structure is the loss of rarity and "unattainables". There need to be chase items in RPGs for me to be motivated to play. Its why I bounce off WoW after a few hours. And why I bounce off of Diablo 2. They are firmly in this modern everyone can get everything methodology.
It just tends to kill gameplay for me.
take this the best way, but, for me, I think you might be satan, the devil, and I really hope that no game design caters to you in this respect ever
I mean fine. Its not for everyone. But im not alone either. Im a minority at this point and even for the games that this methodology exists I dont have the time to even devote into it. But.... as for calling me the devil. And take this in the best way....Whatever whitey.
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
example: adobe creative cloud
it used to be i could buy photoshop and then i have photoshop forever
and if a new version of photoshop came out, i could buy the new version with new features and fixes to old features that didn't quite work right
now, i have to subscribe to photoshop indefinitely, and if i stop subscribing to photoshop, i can't use photoshop anymore
Yes but how will we improve our quarterly figures for shareholders if we don't bilk people out of money for literally no reason?
Okay but realistically the old model for adobe products was awful and I much prefer the new one.
It used to be "pay $1000 for a program and not get new features ever unless you want to pay another $1000".
Now it's "pay $50/month to get every program in the adobe suite and get constant updates".
Though realistically the old model was "get a skeevy crack for the software and steal it because you are a dirty rotten criminal".
Adobe is probably the single best implementation of SaaS.
i don't know if it's necessarily the case an FPS MMO is more work to design content for than a standard WoW-like (EQ-like!)
MMOs like EQ and WoW have traditionally had content added that those on the top end will plow through relatively quickly and more casual players will take all expansion cycle to play through -- but the content never felt like it was arbitrarily forcing it to take an entire expansion cycle to play through by having all content be time-gated that can only be attempted once every so often
i honestly think the expansion design of a game like destiny 2 was just poorly done and relied too much on skinner box/loot box mechanics. it felt more like a browser game than an actual game, and i was putting a ton of time into the game but couldn't actually accomplish things i was working for because of time locks
EQ/WoW, i can put a ton of time into but i also get rewards out of it for that time in a lot of cases (they both still have shitty RNG-based rewards that it's possible to never actually get)
but it is expected in EQ/WoW type games that expansions come out periodically and that the hardcore players will grind through it quickly and then have to either find other ways to spend their time playing (like rolling alts) or just eventually go do other things until the next expansion comes out
destiny was never designed like that, and was even designed with the intent that you play all three of your alts concurrently
i think it's a mistake to design a game with the intent being you are stringing along your hardest core players with ever-more-elusive carrots on sticks
it's okay to put a game down after you've done everything and then come back to it later
but if you put the game down you're not buying lootboxes
I just wish Destiny had raids that could be done with a smaller fireteam or solo. And were shorter. I ain’t got time for a three-hour jaunt that might end in failure.
Raiding in any game has always been funny from a time perspective. The first time it takes hours to get the first boss kill. Then you get more familiar and your team gels and suddenly you are banging it out in like 45 minutes and wondering what to do with the rest of your night.
+3
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thatassemblyguyJanitor of Technical Debt.Registered Userregular
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
Software has indeed been historically licensed. Meaning you were not granted full rights to the software. You were simply granted a one time, irrevokable, limited use license of the software. The company still maintained all ownership of the software. It was the EULA battle back in the 90s.
Now, the terms of these licenses are becoming _revokable_ after a set term. At time which, you must purchase another license from the company. This is the new thing for all software: subscriptions.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i don't know if it's necessarily the case an FPS MMO is more work to design content for than a standard WoW-like (EQ-like!)
MMOs like EQ and WoW have traditionally had content added that those on the top end will plow through relatively quickly and more casual players will take all expansion cycle to play through -- but the content never felt like it was arbitrarily forcing it to take an entire expansion cycle to play through by having all content be time-gated that can only be attempted once every so often
i honestly think the expansion design of a game like destiny 2 was just poorly done and relied too much on skinner box/loot box mechanics. it felt more like a browser game than an actual game, and i was putting a ton of time into the game but couldn't actually accomplish things i was working for because of time locks
EQ/WoW, i can put a ton of time into but i also get rewards out of it for that time in a lot of cases (they both still have shitty RNG-based rewards that it's possible to never actually get)
but it is expected in EQ/WoW type games that expansions come out periodically and that the hardcore players will grind through it quickly and then have to either find other ways to spend their time playing (like rolling alts) or just eventually go do other things until the next expansion comes out
destiny was never designed like that, and was even designed with the intent that you play all three of your alts concurrently
i think it's a mistake to design a game with the intent being you are stringing along your hardest core players with ever-more-elusive carrots on sticks
it's okay to put a game down after you've done everything and then come back to it later
Destiny 2 at launch was very much designed around the idea that you would play, leave and then come back for the next content drop. They were explicit about this. The shift in Y2 with Forsaken was entirely because most of the player base hated that. They wanted to play Destiny and they wanted to be given something to do so they had a reason to log in and play.
And I think you are massively underselling the extent to which, say, WoW was a game designed around playing a lot, all the time. WoW basically originated the repeated daily/weekly quest structure that so many of these games (including Destiny) crib from. The games released the same way: level increase, tons of new content to grind away at to get rewards from various kinds of repeated activities. WoW has between expansion content drops with their patches too that added substantial amount of content, like new raids and such. The main difference is that a game like WoW just has way more shit to do with any content drop so there was always something different to wander off and do.
i guess the difference is the destiny grind is not at all rewarding, and often feels like a complete waste of time
it's interesting to me that year 1, which everyone apparently hated, was actually fun to just log in and shoot some mans with your pals, even if there weren't a whole lot of rewards for doing so
year two there are a million carrots you can chase after, and none of them feel like it's worth your time to do so because they're all completely RNG-based (even the ones that weren't supposed to be because their catch-up mechanics didn't ever actually work), so you could spend literal months chasing a thing and never be able to get it
WoW/EQ have a lot of tedium but there is almost always an actual reward at the end of the grind. in destiny it's literally never guaranteed that your time will have been usefully spent
they may have fixed that now, but they pushed me away so hard i have no interest in coming back to find out
My problem with the modern loot structure is the loss of rarity and "unattainables". There need to be chase items in RPGs for me to be motivated to play. Its why I bounce off WoW after a few hours. And why I bounce off of Diablo 2. They are firmly in this modern everyone can get everything methodology.
It just tends to kill gameplay for me.
take this the best way, but, for me, I think you might be satan, the devil, and I really hope that no game design caters to you in this respect ever
I mean fine. Its not for everyone. But im not alone either. Im a minority at this point and even for the games that this methodology exists I dont have the time to even devote into it. But.... as for calling me the devil. Whatever whitey.
it's like the absolute anathema of what I want
both that I hate the idea of that as a motivator in the first place and the rarity thing
both are awful
+1
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Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
I just wish Destiny had raids that could be done with a smaller fireteam or solo. And were shorter. I ain’t got time for a three-hour jaunt that might end in failure.
I've tried to respond to this post like 5 different ways lol
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
+2
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
edited June 2019
I still use Photoshop CS2 with fan patches at work because we found like 12 licenses and it still works great. It's got everything you need for basic photo editing, logo design, icon design, and software skinning. Who the fk needs intelligent select or auto background fill or content aware resize? Nobody. Shits all gimmicks that doesn't work right when it matters anyway.
Donkey Kong on
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
example: adobe creative cloud
it used to be i could buy photoshop and then i have photoshop forever
and if a new version of photoshop came out, i could buy the new version with new features and fixes to old features that didn't quite work right
now, i have to subscribe to photoshop indefinitely, and if i stop subscribing to photoshop, i can't use photoshop anymore
Yes but how will we improve our quarterly figures for shareholders if we don't bilk people out of money for literally no reason?
Okay but realistically the old model for adobe products was awful and I much prefer the new one.
It used to be "pay $1000 for a program and not get new features ever unless you want to pay another $1000".
Now it's "pay $50/month to get every program in the adobe suite and get constant updates".
Though realistically the old model was "get a skeevy crack for the software and steal it because you are a dirty rotten criminal".
Adobe is probably the single best implementation of SaaS.
Adobe benefited happily from the piracy model in ways Microsoft's "plz copy that floppy" could have only dreamed about. You don't make money from teenagers photoshopping memes, you make money when those people go to work in a few years and they're intimately familiar with your UI and software and the company is basically required to use your software.
That's where the real money is. Just like Apple isn't going to make money from you and I on those monitor arms.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+1
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I guess I'm a little hung up on the user vs corp part of it. Hard to wrap my head around w/o coffe.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i don't think raids should necessarily be able to be done with three people or solo, but it is stupid how long it takes to do them in destiny if you don't have a group that has played together every night and ground it out over the course of months to the point where it's on farm
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
You know whats fucking bullshit about this software as a service bullshit? Professional software companies signing on. I found out that part of the reason why my company won't grab a Revit license is because they would have to keep paying for it, or it becomes unusable. Thats fucking bullshit.
isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
example: adobe creative cloud
it used to be i could buy photoshop and then i have photoshop forever
and if a new version of photoshop came out, i could buy the new version with new features and fixes to old features that didn't quite work right
now, i have to subscribe to photoshop indefinitely, and if i stop subscribing to photoshop, i can't use photoshop anymore
Yes but how will we improve our quarterly figures for shareholders if we don't bilk people out of money for literally no reason?
Okay but realistically the old model for adobe products was awful and I much prefer the new one.
It used to be "pay $1000 for a program and not get new features ever unless you want to pay another $1000".
Now it's "pay $50/month to get every program in the adobe suite and get constant updates".
Though realistically the old model was "get a skeevy crack for the software and steal it because you are a dirty rotten criminal".
Adobe is probably the single best implementation of SaaS.
Except now that people are onboard they're squeezing everyone and experimenting with raising prices because SaaS is disgustingly anti consumer, especially because file formats are proprietary and workflows take time to change.
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
My problem with the modern loot structure is the loss of rarity and "unattainables". There need to be chase items in RPGs for me to be motivated to play. Its why I bounce off WoW after a few hours. And why I bounce off of Diablo 2. They are firmly in this modern everyone can get everything methodology.
It just tends to kill gameplay for me.
take this the best way, but, for me, I think you might be satan, the devil, and I really hope that no game design caters to you in this respect ever
I mean fine. Its not for everyone. But im not alone either. Im a minority at this point and even for the games that this methodology exists I dont have the time to even devote into it. But.... as for calling me the devil. Whatever whitey.
it's like the absolute anathema of what I want
both that I hate the idea of that as a motivator in the first place and the rarity thing
both are awful
I mean it may be for your but its not for others. Devs have been adding the structure back into games via rogue like methods and the like. FFXIV has a large population of US players and it has this methodology at its core.
There is a push for at least part of the population and devs to add it back. Not all games have to be loot box driven.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
it used to be use my student email from 15 years ago to get photoshop for $200 and have photoshop forever
i don't know if it's necessarily the case an FPS MMO is more work to design content for than a standard WoW-like (EQ-like!)
MMOs like EQ and WoW have traditionally had content added that those on the top end will plow through relatively quickly and more casual players will take all expansion cycle to play through -- but the content never felt like it was arbitrarily forcing it to take an entire expansion cycle to play through by having all content be time-gated that can only be attempted once every so often
i honestly think the expansion design of a game like destiny 2 was just poorly done and relied too much on skinner box/loot box mechanics. it felt more like a browser game than an actual game, and i was putting a ton of time into the game but couldn't actually accomplish things i was working for because of time locks
EQ/WoW, i can put a ton of time into but i also get rewards out of it for that time in a lot of cases (they both still have shitty RNG-based rewards that it's possible to never actually get)
but it is expected in EQ/WoW type games that expansions come out periodically and that the hardcore players will grind through it quickly and then have to either find other ways to spend their time playing (like rolling alts) or just eventually go do other things until the next expansion comes out
destiny was never designed like that, and was even designed with the intent that you play all three of your alts concurrently
i think it's a mistake to design a game with the intent being you are stringing along your hardest core players with ever-more-elusive carrots on sticks
it's okay to put a game down after you've done everything and then come back to it later
Destiny 2 at launch was very much designed around the idea that you would play, leave and then come back for the next content drop. They were explicit about this. The shift in Y2 with Forsaken was entirely because most of the player base hated that. They wanted to play Destiny and they wanted to be given something to do so they had a reason to log in and play.
And I think you are massively underselling the extent to which, say, WoW was a game designed around playing a lot, all the time. WoW basically originated the repeated daily/weekly quest structure that so many of these games (including Destiny) crib from. The games released the same way: level increase, tons of new content to grind away at to get rewards from various kinds of repeated activities. WoW has between expansion content drops with their patches too that added substantial amount of content, like new raids and such. The main difference is that a game like WoW just has way more shit to do with any content drop so there was always something different to wander off and do.
i guess the difference is the destiny grind is not at all rewarding, and often feels like a complete waste of time
it's interesting to me that year 1, which everyone apparently hated, was actually fun to just log in and shoot some mans with your pals, even if there weren't a whole lot of rewards for doing so
year two there are a million carrots you can chase after, and none of them feel like it's worth your time to do so because they're all completely RNG-based (even the ones that weren't supposed to be because their catch-up mechanics didn't ever actually work), so you could spend literal months chasing a thing and never be able to get it
WoW/EQ have a lot of tedium but there is almost always an actual reward at the end of the grind. in destiny it's literally never guaranteed that your time will have been usefully spent
they may have fixed that now, but they pushed me away so hard i have no interest in coming back to find out
I don't think it's all that different. I remember grinding raids and dungeons forever looking for specific drops in WoW. Especially when I was going achievement/rare cosmetic hunting. Or grinding faction rep. (the ultimate in tedium but I had more free time then). WoW was always either long grind or pray to RNGesus. There was no guarantee of a real reward at the end of a lot of what you were doing, just a chance at getting the reward.
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isn't it... the other way around
as in, professional software has been license based since forever
what is new is that games are doing that thing too now
Spire of Stars is tons of fun and then the last boss can eat a giant bag of dicks.
There's a reason back when it was the new raid all the LFG channels were full of "Need 2 more, on last boss".
MMOs like EQ and WoW have traditionally had content added that those on the top end will plow through relatively quickly and more casual players will take all expansion cycle to play through -- but the content never felt like it was arbitrarily forcing it to take an entire expansion cycle to play through by having all content be time-gated that can only be attempted once every so often
i honestly think the expansion design of a game like destiny 2 was just poorly done and relied too much on skinner box/loot box mechanics. it felt more like a browser game than an actual game, and i was putting a ton of time into the game but couldn't actually accomplish things i was working for because of time locks
EQ/WoW, i can put a ton of time into but i also get rewards out of it for that time in a lot of cases (they both still have shitty RNG-based rewards that it's possible to never actually get)
but it is expected in EQ/WoW type games that expansions come out periodically and that the hardcore players will grind through it quickly and then have to either find other ways to spend their time playing (like rolling alts) or just eventually go do other things until the next expansion comes out
destiny was never designed like that, and was even designed with the intent that you play all three of your alts concurrently
i think it's a mistake to design a game with the intent being you are stringing along your hardest core players with ever-more-elusive carrots on sticks
it's okay to put a game down after you've done everything and then come back to it later
I'm not sure. I know for drafting software, you bought a license, but that license was good forever, just didn't provide updates or anything (basically a CD Key). But now its like a $1,000 a year, and if you stop paying, you can't use the program anymore. Sure, now you get all the updates, but I'd rather just pay a flat fee and deal with the bugs it has when I got it.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I don't have any problem at all with a license not being eternal when it's companies paying other companies
example: adobe creative cloud
it used to be i could buy photoshop and then i have photoshop forever
and if a new version of photoshop came out, i could buy the new version with new features and fixes to old features that didn't quite work right
now, i have to subscribe to photoshop indefinitely, and if i stop subscribing to photoshop, i can't use photoshop anymore
Even worse, sometimes the middleware used in software as a service is licensed as a service too and the company has to discontinue products people are using and paying for because terms changed or prices went up.
This recently happened to some adobe shit and they sent out notices telling people to stop using shit they paid for or be prosecuted for piracy.
Yes but how will we improve our quarterly figures for shareholders if we don't bilk people out of money for literally no reason?
Also it looks fucking terrible. That studio should be shitting themselves.
Destiny 2 at launch was very much designed around the idea that you would play, leave and then come back for the next content drop. They were explicit about this. The shift in Y2 with Forsaken was entirely because most of the player base hated that. They wanted to play Destiny and they wanted to be given something to do so they had a reason to log in and play.
And I think you are massively underselling the extent to which, say, WoW was a game designed around playing a lot, all the time. WoW basically originated the repeated daily/weekly quest structure that so many of these games (including Destiny) crib from. The games released the same way: level increase, tons of new content to grind away at to get rewards from various kinds of repeated activities. WoW has between expansion content drops with their patches too that added substantial amount of content, like new raids and such. The main difference is that a game like WoW just has way more shit to do with any content drop so there was always something different to wander off and do.
It just tends to kill gameplay for me.
yes
Something HAD to be done!
take this the best way, but, for me, I think you might be satan, the devil, and I really hope that no game design caters to you in this respect ever
ITaaS and IaaS make sense because those are actual commodities that require upkeep and skillsets. I shouldn't need to license the gas tank on my fucking car. But I should be able to pay for a lease or put a mechanic on retainer theoretically.
I mean fine. Its not for everyone. But im not alone either. Im a minority at this point and even for the games that this methodology exists I dont have the time to even devote into it. But.... as for calling me the devil. And take this in the best way....Whatever whitey.
Okay but realistically the old model for adobe products was awful and I much prefer the new one.
It used to be "pay $1000 for a program and not get new features ever unless you want to pay another $1000".
Now it's "pay $50/month to get every program in the adobe suite and get constant updates".
Though realistically the old model was "get a skeevy crack for the software and steal it because you are a dirty rotten criminal".
Adobe is probably the single best implementation of SaaS.
but if you put the game down you're not buying lootboxes
Raiding in any game has always been funny from a time perspective. The first time it takes hours to get the first boss kill. Then you get more familiar and your team gels and suddenly you are banging it out in like 45 minutes and wondering what to do with the rest of your night.
Software has indeed been historically licensed. Meaning you were not granted full rights to the software. You were simply granted a one time, irrevokable, limited use license of the software. The company still maintained all ownership of the software. It was the EULA battle back in the 90s.
Now, the terms of these licenses are becoming _revokable_ after a set term. At time which, you must purchase another license from the company. This is the new thing for all software: subscriptions.
i guess the difference is the destiny grind is not at all rewarding, and often feels like a complete waste of time
it's interesting to me that year 1, which everyone apparently hated, was actually fun to just log in and shoot some mans with your pals, even if there weren't a whole lot of rewards for doing so
year two there are a million carrots you can chase after, and none of them feel like it's worth your time to do so because they're all completely RNG-based (even the ones that weren't supposed to be because their catch-up mechanics didn't ever actually work), so you could spend literal months chasing a thing and never be able to get it
WoW/EQ have a lot of tedium but there is almost always an actual reward at the end of the grind. in destiny it's literally never guaranteed that your time will have been usefully spent
they may have fixed that now, but they pushed me away so hard i have no interest in coming back to find out
it's like the absolute anathema of what I want
both that I hate the idea of that as a motivator in the first place and the rarity thing
both are awful
I've tried to respond to this post like 5 different ways lol
Adobe benefited happily from the piracy model in ways Microsoft's "plz copy that floppy" could have only dreamed about. You don't make money from teenagers photoshopping memes, you make money when those people go to work in a few years and they're intimately familiar with your UI and software and the company is basically required to use your software.
That's where the real money is. Just like Apple isn't going to make money from you and I on those monitor arms.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Except now that people are onboard they're squeezing everyone and experimenting with raising prices because SaaS is disgustingly anti consumer, especially because file formats are proprietary and workflows take time to change.
I mean it may be for your but its not for others. Devs have been adding the structure back into games via rogue like methods and the like. FFXIV has a large population of US players and it has this methodology at its core.
There is a push for at least part of the population and devs to add it back. Not all games have to be loot box driven.
It's the xeroxing of modern computing, and one adobe benefits hard from (compared to xerox).
My company fought with everyone for years because they wanted us to continue drafting on 17" square monitors, and refused to get anything bigger.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I don't think it's all that different. I remember grinding raids and dungeons forever looking for specific drops in WoW. Especially when I was going achievement/rare cosmetic hunting. Or grinding faction rep. (the ultimate in tedium but I had more free time then). WoW was always either long grind or pray to RNGesus. There was no guarantee of a real reward at the end of a lot of what you were doing, just a chance at getting the reward.
but they're listening to every word I say
Also known as rental equipment