I’m not sure how democratic a snap election is when it is basically being held to purge rebel members and the last one was a year ago.
I think that the current situation, and present-day politics around Europe and in the US in general, speak to a fundamental disagreement about what democracy is and what it needs to be. The populists that have been so successful over the last half a dozen years (at least) are very good at making use of the idea that democracy = whatever the voting majority says, whereas the other side of the argument defends a democracy that isn't the tyranny of the majority and where checks and balances are as integral as the whole voting/majority thing. When you say 'democracy' these days, people may well understand two fundamentally different things.
Its not even democracy as the tyranny of 50%+1 though. If it was, then this would be a great time to throw up a referendum for Mays Deal vs No Deal or Remain vs No Deal.
Good on the Lib Dems. Yellow wave or we’re all fucked I reckon.
Last election I ‘tactically’ voted Labour despite wanting to vote LD, but by now they’ve killed all remaining good will and I’m fully confident in jumping ship. Here’s hoping a significant number of others feel the same way.
Unless I've missed something, I actually feel that Labour and Corbyn have done a better (though not perfect) job over the one or two weeks than they have at pretty much any point since the referendum. I understand people saying "Too little, too late", but I could back what they're doing right now. If only they'd done that three years ago.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I’m not sure how democratic a snap election is when it is basically being held to purge rebel members and the last one was a year ago.
I think that the current situation, and present-day politics around Europe and in the US in general, speak to a fundamental disagreement about what democracy is and what it needs to be. The populists that have been so successful over the last half a dozen years (at least) are very good at making use of the idea that democracy = whatever the voting majority says, whereas the other side of the argument defends a democracy that isn't the tyranny of the majority and where checks and balances are as integral as the whole voting/majority thing. When you say 'democracy' these days, people may well understand two fundamentally different things.
Also doesn't help when democracy is subverted by propaganda, tribalism, and apathy.
A well informed, cosmopolitan, engaged electorate making decisions based on rational policy options, I could accept.
But that's not what current democracies are. And they're getting worse.
I mean, take Brexit. I'd wager my house that 80% of Leavers have no more than the barest understanding of what they're screaming for to happen, will actually do. They're on "team Leave", and that's all that matters.
Unless I've missed something, I actually feel that Labour and Corbyn have done a better (though not perfect) job over the one or two weeks than they have at pretty much any point since the referendum. I understand people saying "Too little, too late", but I could back what they're doing right now. If only they'd done that three years ago.
Eh. This past week has been an excellent stalling action but the long term prognosis hasn't changed. It won't so long as Labour stands there all wishy-washy and has most folks convinced they're some sort of crypto-leavers.
I think that what has happened in Parliament does have its positives. Yes, it is completely split. That is a reflection of our wider society however.
+1
Options
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
And now that the Lib-Dems have explicitly called for revoking Article 50 Labour's ambiguous stance isn't going to find much of an audience. You want to leave, you have the Conservatives and The Brexit Party, you want to remain, you have the Lib-Dems.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Good on the Lib Dems. Yellow wave or we’re all fucked I reckon.
Last election I ‘tactically’ voted Labour despite wanting to vote LD, but by now they’ve killed all remaining good will and I’m fully confident in jumping ship. Here’s hoping a significant number of others feel the same way.
Looking forward to polls in the next week or two, to see if the LDs get a bounce from it, and if so, how much.
But the message has been drowned out - understandably - by everything else taking up all the bandwidth. People paying attention (like us) will know, but will people at large? And will there be enough to make a difference?
Also, does it create another barrier to the possibility of the LDs ultimately teaming up with Labour, as will probably still be necessary? Swinson has softened her "no way" stance a bit in recent days...
I’m not sure how democratic a snap election is when it is basically being held to purge rebel members and the last one was a year ago.
I think that the current situation, and present-day politics around Europe and in the US in general, speak to a fundamental disagreement about what democracy is and what it needs to be. The populists that have been so successful over the last half a dozen years (at least) are very good at making use of the idea that democracy = whatever the voting majority says, whereas the other side of the argument defends a democracy that isn't the tyranny of the majority and where checks and balances are as integral as the whole voting/majority thing. When you say 'democracy' these days, people may well understand two fundamentally different things.
That's not even what they think democracy means. They think democracy means "I get what I want". What we are seeing is the rejection of democracy and governmental norms in order to get what they want. It's a fundamental disagreement over policy and the right in general, the populist right especially, basically doesn't care about the idea that other people are allowed to enact their agenda. To them if it's not what they want, it's not really legitimate.
I'm a Socialist (well, not really, but within the context of UK politics I am) and ultimately I wouldn't want to put my vote for anyone other than the most leftwing option available in my constituency.
My local MP has a majority multiple times the votes of the 2nd place candidate though so I'll basically just run the score up.
I live in a Tory safe seat, so I have the privilege of being able to vote how I actually feel like at the price of knowing my vote ultimately won't matter at all.
note the 'cunning' ruse of saying that the lib dems will go for revocation only if they get a majority ld gov which, lol. still leaves plenty of wiggle room for them to go into coalition (probably with the tories) and not actually back revoke!
Also doesn't help when democracy is subverted by propaganda, tribalism, and apathy.
The populist notion of democracy (and I'd agree with shryke that it's about "I get what I want", though that's not how it presents or even sees itself) necessarily includes a generous helping of Dunning-Kruger.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
+4
Options
SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
note the 'cunning' ruse of saying that the lib dems will go for revocation only if they get a majority ld gov which, lol. still leaves plenty of wiggle room for them to go into coalition (probably with the tories) and not actually back revoke!
tbh this is them actually learning from the tuition fees thing, while it should have been inferred that a coalition means losing some manifesto promises, directly pointing that out is necessary.
note the 'cunning' ruse of saying that the lib dems will go for revocation only if they get a majority ld gov which, lol. still leaves plenty of wiggle room for them to go into coalition (probably with the tories) and not actually back revoke!
tbh this is them actually learning from the tuition fees thing, while it should have been inferred that a coalition means losing some manifesto promises, directly pointing that out is necessary.
alternatively its them learning from the tuition fees thing that they can promise whatever the fuck they like because theyre never getting a majority, then go into a coalition and renege - and theyll still get folk to vote for them to go back into gov in a couple of parliaments time.
note the 'cunning' ruse of saying that the lib dems will go for revocation only if they get a majority ld gov which, lol. still leaves plenty of wiggle room for them to go into coalition (probably with the tories) and not actually back revoke!
tbh this is them actually learning from the tuition fees thing, while it should have been inferred that a coalition means losing some manifesto promises, directly pointing that out is necessary.
alternatively its them learning from the tuition fees thing that they can promise whatever the fuck they like because theyre never getting a majority, then go into a coalition and renege - and theyll still get folk to vote for them to go back into gov in a couple of parliaments time.
Right, the only proper thing to do is to never take a firm position on anything important, Labour style. Anything else is suspect.
note the 'cunning' ruse of saying that the lib dems will go for revocation only if they get a majority ld gov which, lol. still leaves plenty of wiggle room for them to go into coalition (probably with the tories) and not actually back revoke!
There's no way on earth that the Lib Dems will be backing the current Tory government. They definitely learned their lesson when they went from ~50 MP's at coalition time to a literal handful directly afterward. And given that much of their post-coalition membership and wider base are fervent advocates of Remain, getting in bed with the Tories would be...stupid.
To mis-quote the West Wing "I mean, they're stupid but they're not that stupid, know what I'm saying?"
I could see a C&P deal with Labour, backing a second referendum though.
Of course I moved to one of the only 5 boroughs in London that voted to leave.
For fucks sake, I should have stayed in Wimbledon
Me in 2017: "I'm sick of being 'represented' by Sinn Fein. It's time I moved my registration to South Belfast where at least the SDLP are!"
SDLP in 2017: *Loses South Belfast to DUP*
Me: PickYourMeme.jpg
Of course I moved to one of the only 5 boroughs in London that voted to leave.
For fucks sake, I should have stayed in Wimbledon
Me in 2017: "I'm sick of being 'represented' by Sinn Fein. It's time I moved my registration to South Belfast where at least the SDLP are!"
SDLP in 2017: *Loses South Belfast to DUP*
Me: PickYourMeme.jpg
I mean, Wimbledon is Tory but at least it's the sane Tory area that voted remain.
note the 'cunning' ruse of saying that the lib dems will go for revocation only if they get a majority ld gov which, lol. still leaves plenty of wiggle room for them to go into coalition (probably with the tories) and not actually back revoke!
tbh this is them actually learning from the tuition fees thing, while it should have been inferred that a coalition means losing some manifesto promises, directly pointing that out is necessary.
alternatively its them learning from the tuition fees thing that they can promise whatever the fuck they like because theyre never getting a majority, then go into a coalition and renege - and theyll still get folk to vote for them to go back into gov in a couple of parliaments time.
Right, the only proper thing to do is to never take a firm position on anything important, Labour style. Anything else is suspect.
my point is that the lib dems have a frankly appalling recent record on backing up their 'firm positions' when they get in power, including their literal actual current leader - although they do have a fairly good record on backing up positions that they did not see fit to mention before getting in power, such as huge benefit cuts and removal of legal aid for employment tribunals. i see no reason to believe that they would be any more selective in what they choose to do if they get back in power, since clearly their previous policy reversals have not done much to their long-term prospects for getting voted back in
that said the one firm position i do have a gut feeling that the lib dems will stick to is their refusal to enter a coalition with labour, a party who until this morning had literally the same brexit policy as the lib dems
I think until this morning the Lib Dem policy was for a second referendum and to campaign for Remain, and Labour’s was to negotiate a new deal and then have a referendum, campaigning for whichever they thought best.
I think until this morning the Lib Dem policy was for a second referendum and to campaign for Remain, and Labour’s was to negotiate a new deal and then have a referendum, campaigning for whichever they thought best.
apologies, youre right and i was misremembering - they had committed to campaign for remain in a 2nd ref, but only if the leave option was no-deal or the wa (or whatever deal johnson eventually managed to come up with, god save us). still a damn sight closer to lib dem policy than the tories though
note the 'cunning' ruse of saying that the lib dems will go for revocation only if they get a majority ld gov which, lol. still leaves plenty of wiggle room for them to go into coalition (probably with the tories) and not actually back revoke!
tbh this is them actually learning from the tuition fees thing, while it should have been inferred that a coalition means losing some manifesto promises, directly pointing that out is necessary.
alternatively its them learning from the tuition fees thing that they can promise whatever the fuck they like because theyre never getting a majority, then go into a coalition and renege - and theyll still get folk to vote for them to go back into gov in a couple of parliaments time.
Right, the only proper thing to do is to never take a firm position on anything important, Labour style. Anything else is suspect.
my point is that the lib dems have a frankly appalling recent record on backing up their 'firm positions' when they get in power, including their literal actual current leader - although they do have a fairly good record on backing up positions that they did not see fit to mention before getting in power, such as huge benefit cuts and removal of legal aid for employment tribunals. i see no reason to believe that they would be any more selective in what they choose to do if they get back in power, since clearly their previous policy reversals have not done much to their long-term prospects for getting voted back in
that said the one firm position i do have a gut feeling that the lib dems will stick to is their refusal to enter a coalition with labour, a party who until this morning had literally the same brexit policy as the lib dems
Your "frankly appalling recent record" is one point afaik. It's not even a line. It's also something, which the quote tree above is actually about, that there's a very good chance they have learned from.
And they've ruled out a coalition with Labour for both strategic reasons (this is what 3rd parties do) and because Corbyn neither has the same position as them on Brexit, nor has he demonstrated any reliability on the issue. We've seen from his actions that he's personally against Remain and more then willing to ignore any agreements with his own party on the issue in order to push his own agenda. There's zero reason for anyone to trust Corbyn on the Brexit issue. You even see this reflected in polling. So why should the Lib Dems trust him?
To the point where they would take No Deal over a Corbyn PM, apparently. Which is a fucking joke. No Deal Brexit, the worst thing ever! Apart from a caretaker Corbyn PM! Yeah alright then
To the point where they would take No Deal over a Corbyn PM, apparently. Which is a fucking joke. No Deal Brexit, the worst thing ever! Apart from a caretaker Corbyn PM! Yeah alright then
You could flip that around and say the same of Corbyn - he said he'd do anything to stop no deal, apart from letting someone else be caretaker PM.
And Corbyn has been criticised for that, but the Lib Dems seem to get away with it as the "sensible Remain MPs." We'll do anything! Anything! Anything to stop No Deal! But not that.
No, I'm sorry, I haven't got any time for that either. The Lib Dems could have convinced me they were worth a shit if they were prepared to back Corbyn, as the SNP were I believe. But they weren't, which makes them just more Tory-lites.
Posts
Its not even democracy as the tyranny of 50%+1 though. If it was, then this would be a great time to throw up a referendum for Mays Deal vs No Deal or Remain vs No Deal.
Its more like “Democracy of shenanigans”.
You can't rush these things!
Last election I ‘tactically’ voted Labour despite wanting to vote LD, but by now they’ve killed all remaining good will and I’m fully confident in jumping ship. Here’s hoping a significant number of others feel the same way.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Also doesn't help when democracy is subverted by propaganda, tribalism, and apathy.
A well informed, cosmopolitan, engaged electorate making decisions based on rational policy options, I could accept.
But that's not what current democracies are. And they're getting worse.
I mean, take Brexit. I'd wager my house that 80% of Leavers have no more than the barest understanding of what they're screaming for to happen, will actually do. They're on "team Leave", and that's all that matters.
Eh. This past week has been an excellent stalling action but the long term prognosis hasn't changed. It won't so long as Labour stands there all wishy-washy and has most folks convinced they're some sort of crypto-leavers.
Looking forward to polls in the next week or two, to see if the LDs get a bounce from it, and if so, how much.
But the message has been drowned out - understandably - by everything else taking up all the bandwidth. People paying attention (like us) will know, but will people at large? And will there be enough to make a difference?
Also, does it create another barrier to the possibility of the LDs ultimately teaming up with Labour, as will probably still be necessary? Swinson has softened her "no way" stance a bit in recent days...
Steam | XBL
That's not even what they think democracy means. They think democracy means "I get what I want". What we are seeing is the rejection of democracy and governmental norms in order to get what they want. It's a fundamental disagreement over policy and the right in general, the populist right especially, basically doesn't care about the idea that other people are allowed to enact their agenda. To them if it's not what they want, it's not really legitimate.
However, I'm in a heavily Labour area. Might as well vote for them
My local MP has a majority multiple times the votes of the 2nd place candidate though so I'll basically just run the score up.
Steam | XBL
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
tbh this is them actually learning from the tuition fees thing, while it should have been inferred that a coalition means losing some manifesto promises, directly pointing that out is necessary.
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
alternatively its them learning from the tuition fees thing that they can promise whatever the fuck they like because theyre never getting a majority, then go into a coalition and renege - and theyll still get folk to vote for them to go back into gov in a couple of parliaments time.
Right, the only proper thing to do is to never take a firm position on anything important, Labour style. Anything else is suspect.
There's no way on earth that the Lib Dems will be backing the current Tory government. They definitely learned their lesson when they went from ~50 MP's at coalition time to a literal handful directly afterward. And given that much of their post-coalition membership and wider base are fervent advocates of Remain, getting in bed with the Tories would be...stupid.
To mis-quote the West Wing "I mean, they're stupid but they're not that stupid, know what I'm saying?"
I could see a C&P deal with Labour, backing a second referendum though.
Goodreads
SF&F Reviews blog
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
My area is actually Tory and voted for Brexit.
Of course I moved to one of the only 5 boroughs in London that voted to leave.
For fucks sake, I should have stayed in Wimbledon
Me in 2017: "I'm sick of being 'represented' by Sinn Fein. It's time I moved my registration to South Belfast where at least the SDLP are!"
SDLP in 2017: *Loses South Belfast to DUP*
Me: PickYourMeme.jpg
Not precisely, I was just still registered at my parents' house. Still went down every election to vote.
I mean, Wimbledon is Tory but at least it's the sane Tory area that voted remain.
my point is that the lib dems have a frankly appalling recent record on backing up their 'firm positions' when they get in power, including their literal actual current leader - although they do have a fairly good record on backing up positions that they did not see fit to mention before getting in power, such as huge benefit cuts and removal of legal aid for employment tribunals. i see no reason to believe that they would be any more selective in what they choose to do if they get back in power, since clearly their previous policy reversals have not done much to their long-term prospects for getting voted back in
that said the one firm position i do have a gut feeling that the lib dems will stick to is their refusal to enter a coalition with labour, a party who until this morning had literally the same brexit policy as the lib dems
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
apologies, youre right and i was misremembering - they had committed to campaign for remain in a 2nd ref, but only if the leave option was no-deal or the wa (or whatever deal johnson eventually managed to come up with, god save us). still a damn sight closer to lib dem policy than the tories though
Your "frankly appalling recent record" is one point afaik. It's not even a line. It's also something, which the quote tree above is actually about, that there's a very good chance they have learned from.
And they've ruled out a coalition with Labour for both strategic reasons (this is what 3rd parties do) and because Corbyn neither has the same position as them on Brexit, nor has he demonstrated any reliability on the issue. We've seen from his actions that he's personally against Remain and more then willing to ignore any agreements with his own party on the issue in order to push his own agenda. There's zero reason for anyone to trust Corbyn on the Brexit issue. You even see this reflected in polling. So why should the Lib Dems trust him?
I don't recall if they ruled out confidence & supply, though. But they were specific about the Corbyn as leader point.
But, as much as some of us would like to see someone else at the Labour helm for various reasons, Corbyn isn't going anywhere. At least not yet.
Steam | XBL
You could flip that around and say the same of Corbyn - he said he'd do anything to stop no deal, apart from letting someone else be caretaker PM.
No, I'm sorry, I haven't got any time for that either. The Lib Dems could have convinced me they were worth a shit if they were prepared to back Corbyn, as the SNP were I believe. But they weren't, which makes them just more Tory-lites.
Two different flavours of Meat Loaf Brexit. "I'd do anything to stop No Deal, but I won't do that".
Steam | XBL