I had fun leveling at launch on the pvp server, but now it's just so overwhelmingly weighted towards horde the idea of logging on to do anything in the world is pretty demoralizing to both me and my wife, and she's not 60 yet. Alas.
Main issue is there's just too many people on the servers.
What is "Low" for these realm caps were High/Full back in vanilla. It definitely seems like both sides are swinging on Grobbulus, but a lot of people are complaining about there being a full raid (minimum) of the opposite faction in most 50+ zones. I feel confident that wasn't the case in vanilla.
If anyone from 16 happens to see this and can invite "Longthought" on Pagle, that's me (or lemme know who is a recruiting occifer if it's not all invite open). Thanks1
If you've made a character on Pagle alliance, jump into our discord and post in the recruitment channel with your character name and we'll invite with great haste!
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
The only reason world PVP is a mess right now is that the same thing that happened when honor was turned on is happening again.
Giving players gear incentives to slaughter each other without battlegrounds means they find the best way to do so. They make large groups and farm smaller groups for free honor.
It turned actual vanilla servers with good balance into gank fests too. It was horrible until BGs came out. Not sure why they decided to bring that period of terrible world pvp back but well, that is what you are dealing with.
Bad balance or not, when BGs come out they are LEAGUES better than world pvp for honor gain. So anyone organizing groups for honor will be queueing BGs. Right now, you have BG raid groups running around killing everyone.
World PVP on PVP servers is awesome while leveling. It will be decent when BGs come out and the world stabalizes. It doesn't matter what server balance is like, most world PVP is either 1 person randomly wandering into another and they duel, or small groups gathering to deal with griefers. And both of those are awesome.
If world PVP isn't for you then definitely move on. The best part of it was always going to be the leveling experience before honor anyway. That is over so I wouldn't argue that going PVE at this point isn't a good idea. BGs will always be the best place to experience Vanilla PVP anyway.
I would love to play with the PAgle peeps especially if Fairbanks has no real presence now. But I went back to retail and am actually thoroughly enjoying working through a long term plan I had. I only got to like the late 30s on Fairbanks but I would hate to start over in Vanilla anyway. Especially dealing with money (and I wouldn't want a handout because I likely would never make it to 60 again). But the urge is still there.
I feel you're wrong about it being the same, due in part to what I said above. Too many damned people packed into the servers. Instead of people being able to go "Yeah, don't go to [Zone] right now." It's "Yeah we can't go anywhere right now."
These huge raids aren't even good for honor. They're getting piddly amounts of it, despite their kill count going higher. It's likely a bunch of people not actually understanding how the system works. I can get more honor from a quick skirmish than I would from hours and hours of zerging around.
Main issue is when you can't even leave the town to go out into the world. But that's on Blizzard for designing hubs without any kind of guard presence.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I feel you're wrong about it being the same, due in part to what I said above. Too many damned people packed into the servers. Instead of people being able to go "Yeah, don't go to [Zone] right now." It's "Yeah we can't go anywhere right now."
These huge raids aren't even good for honor. They're getting piddly amounts of it, despite their kill count going higher. It's likely a bunch of people not actually understanding how the system works. I can get more honor from a quick skirmish than I would from hours and hours of zerging around.
Main issue is when you can't even leave the town to go out into the world. But that's on Blizzard for designing hubs without any kind of guard presence.
I mean, they objectively are when it's the literal only way to get honor.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I feel you're wrong about it being the same, due in part to what I said above. Too many damned people packed into the servers. Instead of people being able to go "Yeah, don't go to [Zone] right now." It's "Yeah we can't go anywhere right now."
These huge raids aren't even good for honor. They're getting piddly amounts of it, despite their kill count going higher. It's likely a bunch of people not actually understanding how the system works. I can get more honor from a quick skirmish than I would from hours and hours of zerging around.
Main issue is when you can't even leave the town to go out into the world. But that's on Blizzard for designing hubs without any kind of guard presence.
If a large group of people never die, and mow down anyone in their path, they get more honor than a small group getting a single kill here and there.
Not to mention it is based on who gets the most in the week or whatever the period is. So you just want to be the best group of honor farmers there is
I mean, I was there on a PVP server during Vanilla. The uprising in mobs ganking people IS because honor turned on. And it WILL calm down when bgs come out.
I feel you're wrong about it being the same, due in part to what I said above. Too many damned people packed into the servers. Instead of people being able to go "Yeah, don't go to [Zone] right now." It's "Yeah we can't go anywhere right now."
These huge raids aren't even good for honor. They're getting piddly amounts of it, despite their kill count going higher. It's likely a bunch of people not actually understanding how the system works. I can get more honor from a quick skirmish than I would from hours and hours of zerging around.
Main issue is when you can't even leave the town to go out into the world. But that's on Blizzard for designing hubs without any kind of guard presence.
If a large group of people never die, and mow down anyone in their path, they get more honor than a small group getting a single kill here and there.
Not to mention it is based on who gets the most in the week or whatever the period is. So you just want to be the best group of honor farmers there is
I mean, I was there on a PVP server during Vanilla. The uprising in mobs ganking people IS because honor turned on. And it WILL calm down when bgs come out.
That isn't how the system works, though. You can roll around with 39 others all you want, but you'll all just be getting 1 honor per kill no matter what. That is a pathetic amount compared to keeping to a smaller group and snagging 60-100 per kill.
Being the best group of honor farmers isn't rolling 40-deep. People are gonna realize that tomorrow when they see their big kill count didn't amount for much.
Nobody is getting 100 honor per kill, especially not killing rank 1s unless I am massively misremembering the values
Now when I did the PVP rank grind (only to 11 but I scared the r14 group because I was consistently placing top 5 multiple weeks) I did it going solo in BGs. Solo kills are worth so much more, especially with DR on honor from repeated kills
When you kill someone there is 199 honor to be spread around with people not having any rank right now. You do that by yourself, you get all of it. Others help whether in your group or not, it gets split up.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
When you kill someone there is 199 honor to be spread around with people not having any rank right now. You do that by yourself, you get all of it. Others help whether in your group or not, it gets split up.
You run in a group 40 wide because that's what lets you farm the kills. You aren't getting huge honor gains running solo or with a small group because you will get instantly deleted by a huge raid.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The spy add-on is far more punishing - it makes hiding from these raid groups nearly impossible
When you kill someone there is 199 honor to be spread around with people not having any rank right now. You do that by yourself, you get all of it. Others help whether in your group or not, it gets split up.
So I have trawled through my old screenshots and realized they did adjust things at some point
I have an AV SS from my warrior in may 06 showing 4158 bonus honor
I also have an AV SS from my mage in dec 06 showing 267 bonus honor
My oldest pvp screenshot in apr 06 (the week I got my r11 I think as I have my r11 logo) shows an AB with 1980 bonus honor
Of the various actual honor on kill estimates, all the newer ones show 4-9 honor, the older ones were ~50s
I must have been remembering the squished numbers and I guess they are using the unsquished ones
The spy add-on is far more punishing - it makes hiding from these raid groups nearly impossible
While it felt useful as I leveled, I kind of feel as though it and VanosKOS should have been broken by Blizzard as readily as the attempt to make an automatic LFG addon.
Like you said there's no hiding. Line of sight means absolutely nothing, you just click a name and you've got them targeted. It can make trying to escape a gank pretty damned miserable, and that was before the inclusion of Phase 2. Absolutely any action which uses something, putting your character info into chat in some way, makes an alert for you on these addons so you can't even hearth out safely or mount up.
The spy add-on is far more punishing - it makes hiding from these raid groups nearly impossible
What is this hot bullshit?
All player actions are recorded within the 100yd range of the combat log. This includes things like eating and drinking, buffing, casting anything, or losing buffs which includes things like warrior stances. This ignores line of sight, and also records player names, obviously, so you automatically know who is within 100yds of you at all times if they're doing literally anything but being AFK. And even then, if a buff times out on them, you can still find them.
You can read the combat log and spot anyone within 100yds this way. Or, of course, you could write an addon to scrape it for you and present the information in a convenient dialog window that also provides a button to click to target the player by executing a /tar <name> macro and then you can send your pet after them, conveniently /petattack has an unlimited range and therefore you automatically know exactly where they are.
It was always possible to read the combat log in vanilla but addon authors didn't have the cursed ingenuity then that they do now.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
In other words, the usual strategy of escaping a raid, which is to rez, hide behind LOS, eat/drink up, and wait for them to leave, no longer works. You have to rez and flee immediately, if you can even manage that much. Some classes will be on Spymod the moment they rez - like warriors or paladins who immediately recast stance/auras when they rez. Others can avoid it by not eating or drinking immediately, but they'll find you eventually.
this doesn't sound TOO different from getting corpse camped without an addon, to be fair, you could always tell someone had rezzed by their corpse disappearing/turning into a skeleton, and the rez radius is not so large that it's not pretty easy to find you if you're not a class or race who can stealth, line of sight or no.
The real problem is the corpse camping. Which, yeah, that's a classic problem with the PvP servers, sucks to be on a PvP server in this game! Changing open world PvP to a toggle for everyone instead of being permanent and per-server was a real nice change in BFA. Oh yeah and it'll get way, way worse in Classic if they ever advance it to Burning Crusade with the addition of flying.
BahamutZERO on
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
this doesn't sound TOO different from getting corpse camped without an addon, to be fair, you could always tell someone had rezzed by their corpse disappearing/turning into a skeleton, and the rez radius is not so large that it's not pretty easy to find you if you're not a class or race who can stealth, line of sight or no.
The real problem is the corpse camping. Which, yeah, that's a classic problem with the PvP servers, sucks to be on a PvP server in this game! Changing open world PvP to a toggle for everyone instead of being permanent and per-server was a real nice change in BFA. Oh yeah and it'll get way, way worse in Classic if they ever advance it to Burning Crusade with the addition of flying.
How we used to do it:
Wait for skellington, /tar (name), we had a hunter so we'd track humanoids and hunters mark them
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
And in the few moments that takes, people can sometimes get away. Not with spymod, since it's effortless. No typing, no time required.
Yeah they should absolutely break the spy mod. It wouldn't even be really hard for them to do. Just limit combat log activity of addons to instances/raid.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Yeah they should absolutely break the spy mod. It wouldn't even be really hard for them to do. Just limit combat log activity of addons to instances/raid.
I agree they should break spy, but with that method wouldn't they break DPS meters in the world? I can see that making people pretty upset.
Yeah they should absolutely break the spy mod. It wouldn't even be really hard for them to do. Just limit combat log activity of addons to instances/raid.
I agree they should break spy, but with that method wouldn't they break DPS meters in the world? I can see that making people pretty upset.
You could just allow these mods to see things you do and not things other people do. Small price to pay.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Finished off what we could in MC last night. 1-shot Shazz,. Sulf gave us a little trouble because we only had 6 healers (only 3 of which were priests for dispels), so we were unsuccessful isolating the adds individually and focusing down. Once we switched to grouping the adds together and assigning interrupts, we got through immediately with minimal issues. Got ourselves to Golemagg after that and 1-shot him as well, although all our tanks and melee died right at the end, so the killing blow was done by our healing druid.
Unfortunately, we don't have enough quints yet for Domo+Rag (I think I am the only one who has it so far), but we should hopefully have enough people on the hands quest next week!
quick healadin question - holy shock or blessing of sanctuary? i've gone fairly heavy into prot for tank buffs and the possibility of tanking easier stuff myself. on the other hand an instant would be well worth having given the many limitations of vanilla pallys.
on the wpvp front everyone i know (ally, EU) has pulled the plug until the BGs drop. i am currently 50 and any kind of non-instance levelling is right out. gank squads waiting at every flight point and all zones fully untenable.
quick healadin question - holy shock or blessing of sanctuary? i've gone fairly heavy into prot for tank buffs and the possibility of tanking easier stuff myself. on the other hand an instant would be well worth having given the many limitations of vanilla pallys.
blessing of sanc is very niche, and most tanks you heal for will not want sanc over any other option
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balanced pvp servers are good
How can we be sure when one has never existed?
I’ve heard unicorns are awesome as well
What is "Low" for these realm caps were High/Full back in vanilla. It definitely seems like both sides are swinging on Grobbulus, but a lot of people are complaining about there being a full raid (minimum) of the opposite faction in most 50+ zones. I feel confident that wasn't the case in vanilla.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Giving players gear incentives to slaughter each other without battlegrounds means they find the best way to do so. They make large groups and farm smaller groups for free honor.
It turned actual vanilla servers with good balance into gank fests too. It was horrible until BGs came out. Not sure why they decided to bring that period of terrible world pvp back but well, that is what you are dealing with.
Bad balance or not, when BGs come out they are LEAGUES better than world pvp for honor gain. So anyone organizing groups for honor will be queueing BGs. Right now, you have BG raid groups running around killing everyone.
World PVP on PVP servers is awesome while leveling. It will be decent when BGs come out and the world stabalizes. It doesn't matter what server balance is like, most world PVP is either 1 person randomly wandering into another and they duel, or small groups gathering to deal with griefers. And both of those are awesome.
If world PVP isn't for you then definitely move on. The best part of it was always going to be the leveling experience before honor anyway. That is over so I wouldn't argue that going PVE at this point isn't a good idea. BGs will always be the best place to experience Vanilla PVP anyway.
I would love to play with the PAgle peeps especially if Fairbanks has no real presence now. But I went back to retail and am actually thoroughly enjoying working through a long term plan I had. I only got to like the late 30s on Fairbanks but I would hate to start over in Vanilla anyway. Especially dealing with money (and I wouldn't want a handout because I likely would never make it to 60 again). But the urge is still there.
These huge raids aren't even good for honor. They're getting piddly amounts of it, despite their kill count going higher. It's likely a bunch of people not actually understanding how the system works. I can get more honor from a quick skirmish than I would from hours and hours of zerging around.
Main issue is when you can't even leave the town to go out into the world. But that's on Blizzard for designing hubs without any kind of guard presence.
I mean, they objectively are when it's the literal only way to get honor.
the top half of the population on pagle is moreso than the top 2% that I can recall on my vanilla server
i think this can spill over to pvp and just make everything super fucking dumb (as if it wasn't already anyway re: world pvp)
If a large group of people never die, and mow down anyone in their path, they get more honor than a small group getting a single kill here and there.
Not to mention it is based on who gets the most in the week or whatever the period is. So you just want to be the best group of honor farmers there is
I mean, I was there on a PVP server during Vanilla. The uprising in mobs ganking people IS because honor turned on. And it WILL calm down when bgs come out.
That isn't how the system works, though. You can roll around with 39 others all you want, but you'll all just be getting 1 honor per kill no matter what. That is a pathetic amount compared to keeping to a smaller group and snagging 60-100 per kill.
Being the best group of honor farmers isn't rolling 40-deep. People are gonna realize that tomorrow when they see their big kill count didn't amount for much.
Now when I did the PVP rank grind (only to 11 but I scared the r14 group because I was consistently placing top 5 multiple weeks) I did it going solo in BGs. Solo kills are worth so much more, especially with DR on honor from repeated kills
You run in a group 40 wide because that's what lets you farm the kills. You aren't getting huge honor gains running solo or with a small group because you will get instantly deleted by a huge raid.
So I have trawled through my old screenshots and realized they did adjust things at some point
I have an AV SS from my warrior in may 06 showing 4158 bonus honor
I also have an AV SS from my mage in dec 06 showing 267 bonus honor
My oldest pvp screenshot in apr 06 (the week I got my r11 I think as I have my r11 logo) shows an AB with 1980 bonus honor
Of the various actual honor on kill estimates, all the newer ones show 4-9 honor, the older ones were ~50s
I must have been remembering the squished numbers and I guess they are using the unsquished ones
While it felt useful as I leveled, I kind of feel as though it and VanosKOS should have been broken by Blizzard as readily as the attempt to make an automatic LFG addon.
Like you said there's no hiding. Line of sight means absolutely nothing, you just click a name and you've got them targeted. It can make trying to escape a gank pretty damned miserable, and that was before the inclusion of Phase 2. Absolutely any action which uses something, putting your character info into chat in some way, makes an alert for you on these addons so you can't even hearth out safely or mount up.
What is this hot bullshit?
All player actions are recorded within the 100yd range of the combat log. This includes things like eating and drinking, buffing, casting anything, or losing buffs which includes things like warrior stances. This ignores line of sight, and also records player names, obviously, so you automatically know who is within 100yds of you at all times if they're doing literally anything but being AFK. And even then, if a buff times out on them, you can still find them.
You can read the combat log and spot anyone within 100yds this way. Or, of course, you could write an addon to scrape it for you and present the information in a convenient dialog window that also provides a button to click to target the player by executing a /tar <name> macro and then you can send your pet after them, conveniently /petattack has an unlimited range and therefore you automatically know exactly where they are.
It was always possible to read the combat log in vanilla but addon authors didn't have the cursed ingenuity then that they do now.
The real problem is the corpse camping. Which, yeah, that's a classic problem with the PvP servers, sucks to be on a PvP server in this game! Changing open world PvP to a toggle for everyone instead of being permanent and per-server was a real nice change in BFA. Oh yeah and it'll get way, way worse in Classic if they ever advance it to Burning Crusade with the addition of flying.
wtf
How we used to do it:
Wait for skellington, /tar (name), we had a hunter so we'd track humanoids and hunters mark them
I agree they should break spy, but with that method wouldn't they break DPS meters in the world? I can see that making people pretty upset.
You could just allow these mods to see things you do and not things other people do. Small price to pay.
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
Only reason I can see is that keeps someone from analyzing a BG and how it went.
this strikes me as unbelievably low for a server which supposedly has many thousands of active players
it seems to highlight to me just how polarized the player base is... we have more molten core clears per week than individual pvpers??? nice
Unfortunately, we don't have enough quints yet for Domo+Rag (I think I am the only one who has it so far), but we should hopefully have enough people on the hands quest next week!
on the wpvp front everyone i know (ally, EU) has pulled the plug until the BGs drop. i am currently 50 and any kind of non-instance levelling is right out. gank squads waiting at every flight point and all zones fully untenable.
blessing of sanc is very niche, and most tanks you heal for will not want sanc over any other option