So were Dooku/Anakin the first Jedi who turned to the Dark Side in like hundreds of years?
Is that why everyone had a goddamn bug up their ass about it, because there hadn’t been a threat from it from so long so that when it happened it scared the fuck out of everyone?
Falling away from the Light is a very different thing than becoming a Sith Lord, I think.
I think its reasonable to assume that plenty of Jedi went Dark over the years. They were either brought back to the Light, or otherwise mitigated as a matter of course.
Going Sith would have been a much bigger deal, IMO.
The problem with the prophecy is that it's largely ignored. It's perhaps the easiest way to setup a Man vs. Fate conflict, except... it's never presented as a conflict. Anakin has exactly 0 opinion on the prophecy, despite being the one that would otherwise attempt to fight against it. Yoda and Mace have, like, maybe a minute or two of dialogue about it. But it's just there as a mostly ignored background detail. It doesn't drive the plot or Anakin's characterization. It's completely superfluous.
A better writer would've done several things:
1. Tell us what the prophecy actually says. A prophecy is always more than just a single statement - in this case, a person who will bring balance to the Force. There's portents and riddles and ways to determine if it's actually coming true. We can infer that Anakin's birth is one such sign, but what of the rest of it? The audience should be along for the ride, where certain events and symbolism mean that things are coming to a head.
2. Use that information to shape Anakin's characterization. Does he want to be the Chosen One? How does being told he might be the Chosen One affect him? One obvious option would be to tie it into his arrogance and fear - he's the Chosen One, but couldn't save his mother, and might not be able to save Padme. Another would be to make the Jedi's hesitance stem from the inevitable upheaval of their order if the prophecy is coming true before them.
3. Following with the above, to really tie it into the plot. Make Palpatine explicitly aware of the prophecy, with his manipulation of Anakin being more than just generic Sith shenanigans revolving around accumulating more power. A secondary conflict of Palpatine vs. Fate, where his solution is to try to bend fate to his own designs, would play well with just about everything that came after.
I didn't say it was well written. Nothing about the PT was well written.
Yeah, that's what's frustrating about the PT. There's a few really good ideas in it - the Jedi failing because of slavish dogmatism and overall stagnation, Anakin's fall stemming from a personal fear, a charismatic ideologue manipulating Anakin through his fear (the AotC scenes where dictatorship sound really good to him specifically because it's control personified), etc.
But it's terribly written and structured. Far too much time spent on stupid shit, like the entire Tatooine detour in TPM, or the unnecessary missing planet and 4-5 layers of really uninteresting misdirection regarding the clones in AotC.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Dark Side =/= Sith Lord
Hell, for years nobody knew what a Sith Lord even was. Dark Force rising referred to dark side users as Dark Jedi because there was zero context for what a Sith Lord was excepting that Vader was "the Dark Lord of the Sith"
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Is that stated anywhere in the movies or is it inferred from forum goers who know the canon 100000x better than the people who wrote the movies
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Is that stated anywhere in the movies or is it inferred from forum goers who know the canon 100000x better than the people who wrote the movies
Yoda talks about the Sith and how there are always two, no more no less.
Shit like the Inquisitors are not Sith, they are just dark side users. Hell, Maul is an ex-Sith and makes no qualms telling people he ain’t about that particular brand anymore while using the Darkside all the live long day.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I don't even know what is 100% canon anymore, but I know that the movies never really discuss Sith much, just set them up as bad guys. They use it synonymously with Dark Side users, there's zero point in splitting that particular hair in regards to the movies. Literally, there's just no reason to do it, just like there's no point in arguing Jedi aren't the only Light Side users; the only time we hear Jedi or Sith is in referring to Light or Dark users and, since we don't see any other kind of Force user in the setting, that's the setup for Light and Dark.
I don't even know what is 100% canon anymore, but I know that the movies never really discuss Sith much, just set them up as bad guys. They use it synonymously with Dark Side users, there's zero point in splitting that particular hair in regards to the movies. Literally, there's just no reason to do it, just like there's no point in arguing Jedi aren't the only Light Side users; the only time we hear Jedi or Sith is in referring to Light or Dark users and, since we don't see any other kind of Force user in the setting, that's the setup for Light and Dark.
Thanks that’s what I was getting at
This is the context I have- R1 is the only non-mainline SW media I’ve ever consumed, so from that perspective, looking back on Anakin being prophesied to restore balance to the force is a real head scratcher- there are no active dark side users at this time per what the movie scripts alone give us
Back then I didn’t really care cause I had just settled into watching my first ever Star War in a movie theater so TPM was still a long way from revealing itself as a rancid fart
It was all about fucking Palpatines in the end anyway
And both believe that any other faiths/traditions/ways of knowing and using the Force that don't subscribe to their binary "there is only Light and Dark!" creed are dangerously deluded... and vice-versa, of course.
The Force was a lot better when Light/Dark was mostly a description of how it was used rather than an actual flavor of the Force itself. Like, a person could fall to the Dark Side because power is usually corruptive, but the Force should be amoral.
so if there are only supposed to be two Sith, who were all those...chanters.. alongside Palpatine at Exagol? There is just absolutely no consistency. Just whatever they feel like will satisfy the rule of cool on a whim.
so if there are only supposed to be two Sith, who were all those...chanters.. alongside Palpatine at Exagol? There is just absolutely no consistency. Just whatever they feel like will satisfy the rule of cool on a whim.
so if there are only supposed to be two Sith, who were all those...chanters.. alongside Palpatine at Exagol? There is just absolutely no consistency. Just whatever they feel like will satisfy the rule of cool on a whim.
I mean ...they were "all the Sith", weren't they? Physical instead of ephemeral, tied to a place instead of showing up wherever they're needed, howling from the sidelines instead of making a moment of calm to talk to their living champion. Seems diametrically-opposed enough to the Jedi who join with the Force to me.
_
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
The chanters were all Palpatine, thus allowing him to have a chorus while also not violating the dumbass Rule of Two.
Barring that, it's a big a galaxy. I can't imagine it would be hard to find one professional chanting group willing to live a life of luxury on some backwater for a few minutes of menacing chanting.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
The visual guide explains that the people on Exegol are "Sith cultists". They're not Force sensitive themselves, and they worship the Sith (specifically Palpatine and Vader) as gods.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Looking back I think Starkiller Base is where it went wrong. Or, maybe it's a microcosm of the ST's many flaws.
The name is a reference to the OT. It's bright and flashy and cool looking but it's just The Death Star But Bigger and the OT already did that.
The worst part was being able to see it from Takodana. That was when JJ showed just how little he cared about making sense in service of looking cool, and it was so terrible. I am normally very good at suspension of disbelief, and I watched TFA an hour and a half after graduating from boot camp, so I just wanted to sit in a chair and watch some damn Star Wars. And I still noticed how dumb it was, while it was happening.
It didn't have to be stupid. The cast was great, the effects were great, the audience was there. But, they didn't even try to pretend that they weren't just making shit up as they went along. At least the PT acts like it has a plan.
Looking back I think Starkiller Base is where it went wrong. Or, maybe it's a microcosm of the ST's many flaws.
The name is a reference to the OT. It's bright and flashy and cool looking but it's just The Death Star But Bigger and the OT already did that.
The worst part was being able to see it from Takodana. That was when JJ showed just how little he cared about making sense in service of looking cool, and it was so terrible. I am normally very good at suspension of disbelief, and I watched TFA an hour and a half after graduating from boot camp, so I just wanted to sit in a chair and watch some damn Star Wars. And I still noticed how dumb it was, while it was happening.
It didn't have to be stupid. The cast was great, the effects were great, the audience was there. But, they didn't even try to pretend that they weren't just making shit up as they went along. At least the PT acts like it has a plan.
You could post nearly the exact same thing about JJ's Trek '09. Like, almost word for word.
so if there are only supposed to be two Sith, who were all those...chanters.. alongside Palpatine at Exagol? There is just absolutely no consistency. Just whatever they feel like will satisfy the rule of cool on a whim.
I mean ...they were "all the Sith", weren't they? Physical instead of ephemeral, tied to a place instead of showing up wherever they're needed, howling from the sidelines instead of making a moment of calm to talk to their living champion. Seems diametrically-opposed enough to the Jedi who join with the Force to me.
I thought they were cultist fleet construction workers on a break?
I'm kind of surprised the cultists of all things come up as often as they do as a complaint here. There's a lot of nonsense in the movie, but a mysterious evil chanting cult for a guy that ruled the galaxy as a Dark Side Force-deity isn't something that ever felt off or in need of an explanation.
And honestly, does knowing who or what they are matter to the story one bit?
Not really. And I kinda thought they were cool. I mean, Palps can't physically do everything himself. Someone has to maintain all that equipment keeping him alive and to occasionally grease that crane arm he rides around on. He needs a veritable army of servants and, well, cultists to get shit done for him.
Its not unreasonable to assume that The Rule of Two is 1) really more like a guideline, and that the bad guys are gonna cheat (ie: Palps having backup apprentices ready to go Maul->Dooku->Anakin at the drop of a hat) and 2) It only applies to Sith Lords and not any of their assorted flunkies (Ventriss, cultists, Inquisitors, Mas Amedda, etc..)
TFA...aren't they just silhouettes in Rey's vision and otherwise only exist in promo materials? Either make them matter or don't start hyping them before they actually exist in film.
TLJ just...ignores them, as far as I remember? I can get not wanting to deal with them, but people know about them and they probably need to make an appearance even if you don't want to.
TROS probably can't get away with just ignoring them forever, so they needed to show them earlier. But oops the first half of that movie is already an entire movie crammed inside another movie so I guess they don't have room.
They worked fine as jobbers I guess, but it just feels so damn weird.
All they did 90% of the time was stand somewhere trying to look menacing.
The one job they had, capture Rey and company, they inexplicably screw up. They only grab Chewbacca while there's a ship on top of a rock, Finn right next to it screaming his head off, another ship literally exploding above them, but they just leave the rest of the gang alone.
Watching the Knights of Ren was like watching Boba's dumb death but drawn out across a movie.
Dealing with the Knights of Ren in TROS was stupid anyway. They were a loose end that could have been explored in a TV show or movie later on, but nah, better to just have them be chumps with 30 seconds of screen time.
Dealing with the Knights of Ren in TROS was stupid anyway. They were a loose end that could have been explored in a TV show or movie later on, but nah, better to just have them be chumps with 30 seconds of screen time.
"Snoke arranged for them to die because letting your apprentice have a loyal force sensitive murder-squad is steps one through five to being replaced"
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No, I'm just pointing out that you can kill them off screen before TFA and it's not just plausible, it makes more in universe sense then them being alive
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i need to stop think of Star Wars cause the more I do the more I fucking hate it
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I rewatched ROTS last night because a) research for edit project and b) quarantine
It’s still fucking abysmal.
Two hours of atrocious acting where people in empty rooms fold their arms and glare at nothing in particular while reading their feelings off cue cards; there’s also Ewan McGregor giving a sprightly and bubbly performance for a peppy and fun space adventure that isn’t actually happening. Padmé, Anakin, and Palpatine are in the worst soap opera on public access, while Obi-Wan is in a G-rated Brendan Fraser movie.
Such a disaster. And the effects have aged like flocked wallpaper.
I rewatched ROTS last night because a) research for edit project and b) quarantine
It’s still fucking abysmal.
Two hours of atrocious acting where people in empty rooms fold their arms and glare at nothing in particular while reading their feelings off cue cards; there’s also Ewan McGregor giving a sprightly and bubbly performance for a peppy and fun space adventure that isn’t actually happening. Padmé, Anakin, and Palpatine are in the worst soap opera on public access, while Obi-Wan is in a G-rated Brendan Fraser movie.
Such a disaster. And the effects have aged like flocked wallpaper.
I rewatched ROTS last night because a) research for edit project and b) quarantine
It’s still fucking abysmal.
Two hours of atrocious acting where people in empty rooms fold their arms and glare at nothing in particular while reading their feelings off cue cards; there’s also Ewan McGregor giving a sprightly and bubbly performance for a peppy and fun space adventure that isn’t actually happening. Padmé, Anakin, and Palpatine are in the worst soap opera on public access, while Obi-Wan is in a G-rated Brendan Fraser movie.
Such a disaster. And the effects have aged like flocked wallpaper.
The Phantom Menace is the only good PT movie.
I wouldn’t say it’s “good,” but I will admit that it at least has a reasonably unstupid story. There’s still too much bad acting and wooden dialogue to say it’s good at anything, and the story really wraps itself into knots for no reason other than George Lucas being really bad at writing plots. Plus, you know, Jar Jar.
But still, it’s a whole movie. A bad one, but not a baffling or inane one. And with the PT, that’s enough to take first place.
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Falling away from the Light is a very different thing than becoming a Sith Lord, I think.
I think its reasonable to assume that plenty of Jedi went Dark over the years. They were either brought back to the Light, or otherwise mitigated as a matter of course.
Going Sith would have been a much bigger deal, IMO.
A better writer would've done several things:
1. Tell us what the prophecy actually says. A prophecy is always more than just a single statement - in this case, a person who will bring balance to the Force. There's portents and riddles and ways to determine if it's actually coming true. We can infer that Anakin's birth is one such sign, but what of the rest of it? The audience should be along for the ride, where certain events and symbolism mean that things are coming to a head.
2. Use that information to shape Anakin's characterization. Does he want to be the Chosen One? How does being told he might be the Chosen One affect him? One obvious option would be to tie it into his arrogance and fear - he's the Chosen One, but couldn't save his mother, and might not be able to save Padme. Another would be to make the Jedi's hesitance stem from the inevitable upheaval of their order if the prophecy is coming true before them.
3. Following with the above, to really tie it into the plot. Make Palpatine explicitly aware of the prophecy, with his manipulation of Anakin being more than just generic Sith shenanigans revolving around accumulating more power. A secondary conflict of Palpatine vs. Fate, where his solution is to try to bend fate to his own designs, would play well with just about everything that came after.
Yeah, that's what's frustrating about the PT. There's a few really good ideas in it - the Jedi failing because of slavish dogmatism and overall stagnation, Anakin's fall stemming from a personal fear, a charismatic ideologue manipulating Anakin through his fear (the AotC scenes where dictatorship sound really good to him specifically because it's control personified), etc.
But it's terribly written and structured. Far too much time spent on stupid shit, like the entire Tatooine detour in TPM, or the unnecessary missing planet and 4-5 layers of really uninteresting misdirection regarding the clones in AotC.
Hell, for years nobody knew what a Sith Lord even was. Dark Force rising referred to dark side users as Dark Jedi because there was zero context for what a Sith Lord was excepting that Vader was "the Dark Lord of the Sith"
Yoda talks about the Sith and how there are always two, no more no less.
Shit like the Inquisitors are not Sith, they are just dark side users. Hell, Maul is an ex-Sith and makes no qualms telling people he ain’t about that particular brand anymore while using the Darkside all the live long day.
I feel like it's been pretty well established that the Sith are an organized religion at the opposite end of spectrum as the Jedi
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith
The Sith code is purposefully a reflection of the Jedi code.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Code_of_the_Sith
Thanks that’s what I was getting at
This is the context I have- R1 is the only non-mainline SW media I’ve ever consumed, so from that perspective, looking back on Anakin being prophesied to restore balance to the force is a real head scratcher- there are no active dark side users at this time per what the movie scripts alone give us
Back then I didn’t really care cause I had just settled into watching my first ever Star War in a movie theater so TPM was still a long way from revealing itself as a rancid fart
It was all about fucking Palpatines in the end anyway
And both believe that any other faiths/traditions/ways of knowing and using the Force that don't subscribe to their binary "there is only Light and Dark!" creed are dangerously deluded... and vice-versa, of course.
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I mean ...they were "all the Sith", weren't they? Physical instead of ephemeral, tied to a place instead of showing up wherever they're needed, howling from the sidelines instead of making a moment of calm to talk to their living champion. Seems diametrically-opposed enough to the Jedi who join with the Force to me.
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Barring that, it's a big a galaxy. I can't imagine it would be hard to find one professional chanting group willing to live a life of luxury on some backwater for a few minutes of menacing chanting.
The name is a reference to the OT. It's bright and flashy and cool looking but it's just The Death Star But Bigger and the OT already did that.
The worst part was being able to see it from Takodana. That was when JJ showed just how little he cared about making sense in service of looking cool, and it was so terrible. I am normally very good at suspension of disbelief, and I watched TFA an hour and a half after graduating from boot camp, so I just wanted to sit in a chair and watch some damn Star Wars. And I still noticed how dumb it was, while it was happening.
It didn't have to be stupid. The cast was great, the effects were great, the audience was there. But, they didn't even try to pretend that they weren't just making shit up as they went along. At least the PT acts like it has a plan.
You could post nearly the exact same thing about JJ's Trek '09. Like, almost word for word.
I thought they were cultist fleet construction workers on a break?
And honestly, does knowing who or what they are matter to the story one bit?
Not really. And I kinda thought they were cool. I mean, Palps can't physically do everything himself. Someone has to maintain all that equipment keeping him alive and to occasionally grease that crane arm he rides around on. He needs a veritable army of servants and, well, cultists to get shit done for him.
Its not unreasonable to assume that The Rule of Two is 1) really more like a guideline, and that the bad guys are gonna cheat (ie: Palps having backup apprentices ready to go Maul->Dooku->Anakin at the drop of a hat) and 2) It only applies to Sith Lords and not any of their assorted flunkies (Ventriss, cultists, Inquisitors, Mas Amedda, etc..)
Yes. Because they're not Sith, Sith rules don't apply to them.
TFA...aren't they just silhouettes in Rey's vision and otherwise only exist in promo materials? Either make them matter or don't start hyping them before they actually exist in film.
TLJ just...ignores them, as far as I remember? I can get not wanting to deal with them, but people know about them and they probably need to make an appearance even if you don't want to.
TROS probably can't get away with just ignoring them forever, so they needed to show them earlier. But oops the first half of that movie is already an entire movie crammed inside another movie so I guess they don't have room.
They worked fine as jobbers I guess, but it just feels so damn weird.
The one job they had, capture Rey and company, they inexplicably screw up. They only grab Chewbacca while there's a ship on top of a rock, Finn right next to it screaming his head off, another ship literally exploding above them, but they just leave the rest of the gang alone.
Watching the Knights of Ren was like watching Boba's dumb death but drawn out across a movie.
You can't give someone a pirate ship in one game, and then take it back in the next game. It's rude.
"Snoke arranged for them to die because letting your apprentice have a loyal force sensitive murder-squad is steps one through five to being replaced"
Come Overwatch with meeeee
No, I'm just pointing out that you can kill them off screen before TFA and it's not just plausible, it makes more in universe sense then them being alive
Come Overwatch with meeeee
It’s still fucking abysmal.
Two hours of atrocious acting where people in empty rooms fold their arms and glare at nothing in particular while reading their feelings off cue cards; there’s also Ewan McGregor giving a sprightly and bubbly performance for a peppy and fun space adventure that isn’t actually happening. Padmé, Anakin, and Palpatine are in the worst soap opera on public access, while Obi-Wan is in a G-rated Brendan Fraser movie.
Such a disaster. And the effects have aged like flocked wallpaper.
The Phantom Menace is the only good PT movie.
I wouldn’t say it’s “good,” but I will admit that it at least has a reasonably unstupid story. There’s still too much bad acting and wooden dialogue to say it’s good at anything, and the story really wraps itself into knots for no reason other than George Lucas being really bad at writing plots. Plus, you know, Jar Jar.
But still, it’s a whole movie. A bad one, but not a baffling or inane one. And with the PT, that’s enough to take first place.
The Jedi were apparently very selective accepting people when they thought the Sith were extinct, and rejected Anakin’s application.
They only accepted Anakin after discovering Maul and Yoda reminding everyone there would be at least another Sith.
Yes, let it flow through you.
~ Buckaroo Banzai