I don't know where I recently saw it, but I thought this was clever:
American politics isn't a marriage, it's a bus. You're not looking for a soul mate, you're trying to get somewhere, and if the bus doesn't go right to where you're wanting to go, you take the first bus and then take another bus, you don't just stay home and say "well it didn't run direct."
what if both buses are going the wrong way
then you should learn to read the map
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
So do you want Trump or Biden? Those are the two choices of who can become president this election regardless of the reasons for that.
There is no "neither becomes president" choice in any meaningful sense
There are more people on the ballot than just Trump or Biden, there is even a write in candidate slot. I have no need to vote for Biden or Trump, and I have no responsibility to do so.
It is a choice in the same way as saying I want free healthcare is a choice when my hospital asks me how I want to pay for the bill.
I don't really understand this? There is no law stating I have to vote for the Democratic or Republican candidates. I have not entered into a contract or binding agreement to vote a certain way.
Yes, in some senses a vote for a third party candidate or write in candidate is just as futile as demanding free healthcare in the face of medical bills, but I am not obligated or responsible to not vote in such a "futile" way.
I think that realistically other representatives of other elements of the political spectrum should run, not because they're going to win, but because they can put forth a manifesto that you can then subscribe towards and show that you're clearly in support of certain things that the main candidates don't fulfil.
This is what happens during the primary.
In the primary you choose you're preferred candidate, but you should then have other places to put your vote if the party goes for someone you don't want to vote for. I think that'd be good.
I'm still trying to figure out if I think the RNC will be a shitshow next week though. I mean, it'll clearly be another Night at the Garden. Trump has nothing else and has only focused his campaign even more on that kind of shit. But I really wonder how much rot has infested the technical expertise of the party and how much grift will be holding them back.
I'm definitely expecting some truly stupid political symbolism events like that truck thing they tried a few decades-in-2020-time back and for them to fail horribly.
It's kind of incredible how the Democratic leaders of American cities can send the police out into the streets to violently assault protesters who are taking a stand against police brutality and institutionalised racism, and then the Democratic Party can turn around to those same people and say "vote for our guy, it's the only moral choice," and people will nod solemnly and say "if you don't vote for our guy, you're actually terrible" like, you know what is terrible? The system of oppression that the Democratic Party helped build and are culpable of maintaining. I don't think you've got much chance of Biden going against that, Captain Anti-Crime Bill amongst other things.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
So do you want Trump or Biden? Those are the two choices of who can become president this election regardless of the reasons for that.
There is no "neither becomes president" choice in any meaningful sense
There are more people on the ballot than just Trump or Biden, there is even a write in candidate slot. I have no need to vote for Biden or Trump, and I have no responsibility to do so.
It is a choice in the same way as saying I want free healthcare is a choice when my hospital asks me how I want to pay for the bill.
I don't really understand this? There is no law stating I have to vote for the Democratic or Republican candidates. I have not entered into a contract or binding agreement to vote a certain way.
Yes, in some senses a vote for a third party candidate or write in candidate is just as futile as demanding free healthcare in the face of medical bills, but I am not obligated or responsible to not vote in such a "futile" way.
No one has said there is a law. You are not legally obligated to in any fashion. Everyone else however is free to judge you for your actions and the morality they express.
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
Whatever lets you justify to yourself letting 10 people die instead of 1. Just don't expect anyone else to agree with the justification.
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SixCaches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhexRegistered Userregular
It's kind of incredible how the Democratic leaders of American cities can send the police out into the streets to violently assault protesters who are taking a stand against police brutality and institutionalised racism, and then the Democratic Party can turn around to those same people and say "vote for our guy, it's the only moral choice," and people will nod solemnly and say "if you don't vote for our guy, you're actually terrible" like, you know what is terrible? The system of oppression that the Democratic Party helped build and are culpable of maintaining. I don't think you've got much chance of Biden going against that, Captain Anti-Crime Bill amongst other things.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I think saying both sides are the same when comparing Biden and Trump is just lazy. Their social and economic policies/views might as well exist on different planets.
Not voting Biden because of your principles is an admission that you are privileged, because you are voting on 'principles' and not 'results'. As in, you are not someone being directly hurt by Trump's policies.
I would urge these people to think about the people for whom the difference between Trump and Biden IS a very big deal, and affects their lives in very real ways.
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
You think he will be worse than Trump is an obvious one if clearly untrue
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
You know who will definitely make that choice and happily? And is actively campaigning on it?
DONALD FUCKING TRUMP
Someone else pointed out above that it's not about us. It's about our future, our children. I can't share your viewpoint that Biden is "less evil". But even if he was, we have to try for better everyday. Continue from less evil to good. But we can't do that if evil wins. And evil wins when good people do nothing. I truly believe all of you are good people. Cast your ballot how you like, and I'll still think of you that way.
Like what's even more incredible is that the guy can give a nice speech and make some wholesome ads and do some calculated political theatre and people will be like "awww he's lovely really" as opposed to seeing what his party and the Presidency he was part of and so on have done and saying "I'll stomach voting for this guy rather than the lunatic fascist I guess."
It's kind of incredible how the Democratic leaders of American cities can send the police out into the streets to violently assault protesters who are taking a stand against police brutality and institutionalised racism, and then the Democratic Party can turn around to those same people and say "vote for our guy, it's the only moral choice," and people will nod solemnly and say "if you don't vote for our guy, you're actually terrible" like, you know what is terrible? The system of oppression that the Democratic Party helped build and are culpable of maintaining. I don't think you've got much chance of Biden going against that, Captain Anti-Crime Bill amongst other things.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
I'd rather try and help the guy with the sucking chest wound and hope things improve than shrug and watch while he dies.
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
Whatever lets you justify to yourself letting 10 people die instead of 1. Just don't expect anyone else to agree with the justification.
what is joe biden's justification for supporting policies that let thousands die instead of none
It is easily possible to vote for someone while working to pressure them.
JFK and LBJ were not that amazingly progressive on civil rights but most voters still voted for them while civil rights activists continued to pressure them
Like LBJ was a legitimately great politician (read not person) who knew that passing the measures in the CRA and VRA were objectively the right thing to do.
But he didn't want to necessarily go that far - because he knew his beloved party was going to eat shit for it - but MLK and a whole host of others kept their foot on the gas and he finally put his weight behind it.
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If that isn't enough for you, so be it. I only ask you admit it. If saving as many lives as possible is the "lesser evil," then yes that is the choice you should make. Every time.
And yeah, I am going to judge you. I can't help it. You think you're making a moral choice and remaining true to your ideals. I think you're willing to let me and everyone I love die so you can say you were right on Facebook.
Like I said before, conscience is important. Follow it—and understand the cost.
I mean, this is good and all if you prescribe to a more utilitarian moral framework.
And its especially good if you only consider things under a utilitarian moral framework.
But if you don't...? If your morals and value system aren't based on that framework?
You know, this is a microcosm of the whole argument, isn't it?
170,000 actual human beings are dead. We backslide on every gain made in the last 100 years. The Klan marched a few miles from where my baby cousins sleep. Every time I go outside, I have to carefully manage my dress and mannerisms to reduce the chances of being murdered by a cop.
And you're asking me about utilitarianism.
Zonugal, I don't care about moral frameworks. I care about people. Right now, Biden is the best option to help people. He wasn't my first choice—he wasn't even my fourth—but this is where we are. It's not theoretical. It's not a question of philosophy. It's real, and so are the consequences.
It's kind of incredible how the Democratic leaders of American cities can send the police out into the streets to violently assault protesters who are taking a stand against police brutality and institutionalised racism, and then the Democratic Party can turn around to those same people and say "vote for our guy, it's the only moral choice," and people will nod solemnly and say "if you don't vote for our guy, you're actually terrible" like, you know what is terrible? The system of oppression that the Democratic Party helped build and are culpable of maintaining. I don't think you've got much chance of Biden going against that, Captain Anti-Crime Bill amongst other things.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I got some news for you; they're all going to vote for Biden, because yes, you win. He is the least awful I guess. Exhaustion and despair will drive people who actually recognise the kind of change needed and how unsuited he is to deliver it. And for a lot of Americans? I doubt it'll make a single bit of difference who gets in.
It's kind of incredible how the Democratic leaders of American cities can send the police out into the streets to violently assault protesters who are taking a stand against police brutality and institutionalised racism, and then the Democratic Party can turn around to those same people and say "vote for our guy, it's the only moral choice," and people will nod solemnly and say "if you don't vote for our guy, you're actually terrible" like, you know what is terrible? The system of oppression that the Democratic Party helped build and are culpable of maintaining. I don't think you've got much chance of Biden going against that, Captain Anti-Crime Bill amongst other things.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I got some news for you; they're all going to vote for Biden, because yes, you win. He is the least awful I guess. Exhaustion and despair will drive people who actually recognise the kind of change needed and how unsuited he is to deliver it. And for a lot of Americans? I doubt it'll make a single bit of difference who gets in.
Given the current pandemic currently killing thousands of Americans every day because of the ineptitude of our current president I'm gonna hard disagree with you here.
Biden has moved to the left since the primary. This is trivially easy to demonstrate. The candidates to his left that opposed him sat down with him after the race and crafted a platform that was a compromise between their views and his. And that shifted the party's agenda. That's how this kind of change happens.
And it will only become policy rather then just platform is Biden wins and Democrats take control of the Senate and the House. (and eliminate the filibuster) You need to put votes behind the agenda to get it into place.
That's the steps political change takes. Pressure and compromise and winning elections. If you don't have the votes to win on your own, you need to find more voters and compromise with them to build a mutually agreeable agenda and push for that instead. And that's what we've seen with Biden. He moved his agenda to bring in the voices of people who opposed him in the primary and try and craft an agenda they could all agree on.
Build a coalition, get it into power and keep pushing it in the direction you want.
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
Whatever lets you justify to yourself letting 10 people die instead of 1. Just don't expect anyone else to agree with the justification.
what is joe biden's justification for supporting policies that let thousands die instead of none
Probably pretty awful ones! Ones I strongly disagree with! Which is why I'll continue to donate to, vote for, and push for the party to move further left. Until then the choice is still one or ten.
This does not mean I think Biden is amazing. It does not mean I think it's awesome people will die. It does not mean any of the million things you've said people here believe instead of what they've actually stated. It means I can help make the world a bit better or let it get worse. If you want it to get worse or don't care if it does, or that some progress isn't worth it, that's your decision. At the end of the day you're the only one you have to justify it to.
But FFS stop acting like people here are psyched to see people die. We aren't. We want less to die and we're going to do what we can to ensure that whether or not you decide to sit things out.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
There isn't. There is no signal percievable by the Dems for your protest non-vote, so that's a no-utility action. Further, even if they could intuit something from it, you're assuming 1) they decide to go left in response and 2) if he wins reelection, Trump doesn't decide to start a war and stick around for 3+ terms, citing his reelection as popular mandate.
SummaryJudgment on
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
It's kind of incredible how the Democratic leaders of American cities can send the police out into the streets to violently assault protesters who are taking a stand against police brutality and institutionalised racism, and then the Democratic Party can turn around to those same people and say "vote for our guy, it's the only moral choice," and people will nod solemnly and say "if you don't vote for our guy, you're actually terrible" like, you know what is terrible? The system of oppression that the Democratic Party helped build and are culpable of maintaining. I don't think you've got much chance of Biden going against that, Captain Anti-Crime Bill amongst other things.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I got some news for you; they're all going to vote for Biden, because yes, you win. He is the least awful I guess. Exhaustion and despair will drive people who actually recognise the kind of change needed and how unsuited he is to deliver it. And for a lot of Americans? I doubt it'll make a single bit of difference who gets in.
Given the current pandemic currently killing thousands of Americans every day because of the ineptitude of our current president I'm gonna hard disagree with you here.
I mean if 100,000 people fewer die, then that's kind of a big deal to those people, and everyone who knows them or has them impact their lives.
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Like a lot of people in Washington that are deep in this back and forth- I strategically vote twice as hard in Ohio (whole I still live there) as part of the bargain of swell PAers
I’ve been a lifelong dem (even held an elected position in the local party briefly) but that was an identity formed out of my base political instinct of “fuck these fucking racist fuckers”
I’m definitely not happy with the old guard in the party that can only do things that focus test well, and once I start voting in Cali, I’ll definitely be looking outside of the Dems for candidates better representing where I personally am
It's kind of incredible how the Democratic leaders of American cities can send the police out into the streets to violently assault protesters who are taking a stand against police brutality and institutionalised racism, and then the Democratic Party can turn around to those same people and say "vote for our guy, it's the only moral choice," and people will nod solemnly and say "if you don't vote for our guy, you're actually terrible" like, you know what is terrible? The system of oppression that the Democratic Party helped build and are culpable of maintaining. I don't think you've got much chance of Biden going against that, Captain Anti-Crime Bill amongst other things.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I got some news for you; they're all going to vote for Biden, because yes, you win. He is the least awful I guess. Exhaustion and despair will drive people who actually recognise the kind of change needed and how unsuited he is to deliver it. And for a lot of Americans? I doubt it'll make a single bit of difference who gets in.
Given the current pandemic currently killing thousands of Americans every day because of the ineptitude of our current president I'm gonna hard disagree with you here.
Yeah, like, this entire year has been a pretty abject demonstration that "it doesn't matter who wins" is obviously wrong.
Vote for Biden and then put your energy into downticket races supporting progressives? Somehow that feels more effective than endless nihilism
Like you are literally going to get a chance to push the party left significantly in 2022, where dems will be struggling to maintain any gains they get (if any)
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I disagree that not voting for Biden or Trump is functionally the same as not voting at all. By voting for a third party I can signal the desire and will for something different and create a countable statistic. It won't be a vote for the winner, that is for sure, but it is still distinct in function from not voting at all.
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
When someone so dangerous as Trump ain't running.
Look, I ain't entirely opposed to a leftist revolution. Most likely we will need to do some kind of revolution to escape the capitalism sinkhole whirlpool we're drowning it. But this isn't the time for that. Everybody will lose of Trump wins the election.
I think that's probably the crux of what pisses people off about the "it doesn't matter whether it's Trump or Biden"
It's demonstrably false because a pandemic is ravaging out country and sending it into a depression while the president masturbates to his daughter on a golf course and talks about how much the libs suck
It is fucking OBVIOUS that a Biden presidency can actually fucking address the current emergency situation
But when people say "oh it won't make a difference" it actually pisses me off and just fuck all the way off with that thinking
Also, trump winning means zero chance of advancing progressive legislation due to the stacking of Supreme Court and literally dissolving what’s left of our democracy
Biden is your best shot at advancing progressive causes
Has Biden actually suggested he would cut services because of the deficit or are people just treating some random with a connection to the campaign as being proof positive of it?
A guy who used to work for him for a long time said he didn't know if it would be possible to greatly increase federal programs because of the strain covid and the coming economic crash would put on the budget.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I disagree that not voting for Biden or Trump is functionally the same as not voting at all. By voting for a third party I can signal the desire and will for something different and create a countable statistic. It won't be a vote for the winner, that is for sure, but it is still distinct in function from not voting at all.
Who do you think will receive this signal? I worked for a polling company, and we absolutely did not interpret third-party votes as meaning anything.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I disagree that not voting for Biden or Trump is functionally the same as not voting at all. By voting for a third party I can signal the desire and will for something different and create a countable statistic. It won't be a vote for the winner, that is for sure, but it is still distinct in function from not voting at all.
While I understand the sentiment, in reality by not voting for Biden, either by not voting at all or voting for a third party, you’re making it more likely that Trump wins.
It sucks, but it’s the reality of the current system.
can you feel the struggle within?
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
There is a lot going on here that is not directly related to the election and should not be here. This is not the home for random political philosophy, whether we should even have a United States, the ethics of being a 12 year old shitlord, or most of the other stuff that has comprised the majority of the last eleventy billion pages.
Knock it off, kindly.
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Surely the 100th time you try the 'yell for several pages' method of voter persuasion it will work better
Are we doing that or "But voting Biden will hurt my feelings?" Because it usually alternates and starts the same downward cycle each time.
This type of reductive rhtetoric is both unhelpful and downright offensive. The people in this thread most often expressing trepidation with supporting Biden and the flank of the Democratic Party he represents are less concerned with their own feelings, and more with their actual, physical well-being and the well-being of their friends and loved ones.
Javen on
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
I feel like a lot of leftists talking about not voting for Biden are entertaining that thought because they know that Biden is leading and what's one vote, right
But that's not ethically scalable, if everyone bought into that and soothed their personal conscience by voting 3rd party or not voting, then you get Trump
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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then you should learn to read the map
I don't really understand this? There is no law stating I have to vote for the Democratic or Republican candidates. I have not entered into a contract or binding agreement to vote a certain way.
Yes, in some senses a vote for a third party candidate or write in candidate is just as futile as demanding free healthcare in the face of medical bills, but I am not obligated or responsible to not vote in such a "futile" way.
That's not the system we have
Are we doing that or "But voting Biden will hurt my feelings?" Because it usually alternates and starts the same downward cycle each time.
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I'm definitely expecting some truly stupid political symbolism events like that truck thing they tried a few decades-in-2020-time back and for them to fail horribly.
It's kind of sad because honestly pretty much all the Americans in this thread who think Biden fucking sucks will in all liklihood vote for him, because at the end of the day what you gonna do? But it's a tiny plaster on a sucking chest wound and a number of you definitely do seem to be really keen on telling these people to fuck off.
No one has said there is a law. You are not legally obligated to in any fashion. Everyone else however is free to judge you for your actions and the morality they express.
Whatever lets you justify to yourself letting 10 people die instead of 1. Just don't expect anyone else to agree with the justification.
It certainly is kind of sad, however in a couple of months an election will happen and there are functionally three choices every voter has. Vote for Biden, Trump, or don’t vote. Assuming all of these problems exist, which of these three choices is more likely to result in positive outcomes?
I would urge these people to think about the people for whom the difference between Trump and Biden IS a very big deal, and affects their lives in very real ways.
You think he will be worse than Trump is an obvious one if clearly untrue
You know who will definitely make that choice and happily? And is actively campaigning on it?
DONALD FUCKING TRUMP
Someone else pointed out above that it's not about us. It's about our future, our children. I can't share your viewpoint that Biden is "less evil". But even if he was, we have to try for better everyday. Continue from less evil to good. But we can't do that if evil wins. And evil wins when good people do nothing. I truly believe all of you are good people. Cast your ballot how you like, and I'll still think of you that way.
I'd rather try and help the guy with the sucking chest wound and hope things improve than shrug and watch while he dies.
Like LBJ was a legitimately great politician (read not person) who knew that passing the measures in the CRA and VRA were objectively the right thing to do.
But he didn't want to necessarily go that far - because he knew his beloved party was going to eat shit for it - but MLK and a whole host of others kept their foot on the gas and he finally put his weight behind it.
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You know, this is a microcosm of the whole argument, isn't it?
170,000 actual human beings are dead. We backslide on every gain made in the last 100 years. The Klan marched a few miles from where my baby cousins sleep. Every time I go outside, I have to carefully manage my dress and mannerisms to reduce the chances of being murdered by a cop.
And you're asking me about utilitarianism.
Zonugal, I don't care about moral frameworks. I care about people. Right now, Biden is the best option to help people. He wasn't my first choice—he wasn't even my fourth—but this is where we are. It's not theoretical. It's not a question of philosophy. It's real, and so are the consequences.
I got some news for you; they're all going to vote for Biden, because yes, you win. He is the least awful I guess. Exhaustion and despair will drive people who actually recognise the kind of change needed and how unsuited he is to deliver it. And for a lot of Americans? I doubt it'll make a single bit of difference who gets in.
Given the current pandemic currently killing thousands of Americans every day because of the ineptitude of our current president I'm gonna hard disagree with you here.
And it will only become policy rather then just platform is Biden wins and Democrats take control of the Senate and the House. (and eliminate the filibuster) You need to put votes behind the agenda to get it into place.
That's the steps political change takes. Pressure and compromise and winning elections. If you don't have the votes to win on your own, you need to find more voters and compromise with them to build a mutually agreeable agenda and push for that instead. And that's what we've seen with Biden. He moved his agenda to bring in the voices of people who opposed him in the primary and try and craft an agenda they could all agree on.
Build a coalition, get it into power and keep pushing it in the direction you want.
Probably pretty awful ones! Ones I strongly disagree with! Which is why I'll continue to donate to, vote for, and push for the party to move further left. Until then the choice is still one or ten.
This does not mean I think Biden is amazing. It does not mean I think it's awesome people will die. It does not mean any of the million things you've said people here believe instead of what they've actually stated. It means I can help make the world a bit better or let it get worse. If you want it to get worse or don't care if it does, or that some progress isn't worth it, that's your decision. At the end of the day you're the only one you have to justify it to.
But FFS stop acting like people here are psyched to see people die. We aren't. We want less to die and we're going to do what we can to ensure that whether or not you decide to sit things out.
There isn't. There is no signal percievable by the Dems for your protest non-vote, so that's a no-utility action. Further, even if they could intuit something from it, you're assuming 1) they decide to go left in response and 2) if he wins reelection, Trump doesn't decide to start a war and stick around for 3+ terms, citing his reelection as popular mandate.
I mean if 100,000 people fewer die, then that's kind of a big deal to those people, and everyone who knows them or has them impact their lives.
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You can vote a third party in a safe state
Like a lot of people in Washington that are deep in this back and forth- I strategically vote twice as hard in Ohio (whole I still live there) as part of the bargain of swell PAers
I’ve been a lifelong dem (even held an elected position in the local party briefly) but that was an identity formed out of my base political instinct of “fuck these fucking racist fuckers”
I’m definitely not happy with the old guard in the party that can only do things that focus test well, and once I start voting in Cali, I’ll definitely be looking outside of the Dems for candidates better representing where I personally am
Yeah, like, this entire year has been a pretty abject demonstration that "it doesn't matter who wins" is obviously wrong.
Like you are literally going to get a chance to push the party left significantly in 2022, where dems will be struggling to maintain any gains they get (if any)
Then they will in fact need progressive votes
I disagree that not voting for Biden or Trump is functionally the same as not voting at all. By voting for a third party I can signal the desire and will for something different and create a countable statistic. It won't be a vote for the winner, that is for sure, but it is still distinct in function from not voting at all.
When someone so dangerous as Trump ain't running.
Look, I ain't entirely opposed to a leftist revolution. Most likely we will need to do some kind of revolution to escape the capitalism sinkhole whirlpool we're drowning it. But this isn't the time for that. Everybody will lose of Trump wins the election.
It's demonstrably false because a pandemic is ravaging out country and sending it into a depression while the president masturbates to his daughter on a golf course and talks about how much the libs suck
It is fucking OBVIOUS that a Biden presidency can actually fucking address the current emergency situation
But when people say "oh it won't make a difference" it actually pisses me off and just fuck all the way off with that thinking
I'm content to say you're objectively wrong based on SCOTUS choice alone.
Otherwise, if you don't think any of it matters at all I don't understand why you're here to talk about it.
Biden is your best shot at advancing progressive causes
A guy who used to work for him for a long time said he didn't know if it would be possible to greatly increase federal programs because of the strain covid and the coming economic crash would put on the budget.
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Who do you think will receive this signal? I worked for a polling company, and we absolutely did not interpret third-party votes as meaning anything.
While I understand the sentiment, in reality by not voting for Biden, either by not voting at all or voting for a third party, you’re making it more likely that Trump wins.
It sucks, but it’s the reality of the current system.
Knock it off, kindly.
This type of reductive rhtetoric is both unhelpful and downright offensive. The people in this thread most often expressing trepidation with supporting Biden and the flank of the Democratic Party he represents are less concerned with their own feelings, and more with their actual, physical well-being and the well-being of their friends and loved ones.
But that's not ethically scalable, if everyone bought into that and soothed their personal conscience by voting 3rd party or not voting, then you get Trump