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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Honestly, the only issue of West Coast Avengers I read as a kid they were for some reason murdered by Lucrezia Borgia?

    At that point, I didn't know why Cap had a black uniform, so my confusion on Carpenter makes sense, I guess.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    To be clear I don't think Loeb being shit moves the needle as far as they're concerned

    But they've never shown even the tiniest bit of interest in merging their movies with their "TV" stuff

    At best, AoS was able to wrangle some castoffs and cosplay as an MCU tie in

    It's a goddamn miracle that AoS ended up as good as it did.

    Like, its best seasons are among some of the best MCU stuff that's out there as far as I'm concerned.

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    AoS was aggressively fine to me
    It had a couple solid seasons but I never found myself like, getting excited for next week

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  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Huh. I thought she was just Arachne

    Fun fact, Spider-Man's black costume/Venom is based on her first costume.

    I'd say these days she is far more associated with Spider-Man than with the Avengers.

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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    I know you shouldn't read the comments. But recent responses to the new Avengers game tell me people either:

    Didn't know Kamela was an already established character and think shes a Mary Sue for...someone I guess?

    Think she was created to forward some kind of anti-white agenda

    Think she was created to forward some kind of anti-man agenda

    in short people are stupid.

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  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    I knew intellectually that people would be shitty about her somewhere, but the vast majority of conversations I've seen about the game are incredibly positive about Kamala

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    DJ Eebs wrote: »
    I knew intellectually that people would be shitty about her somewhere, but the vast majority of conversations I've seen about the game are incredibly positive about Kamala

    Every review for the game I've watched on Youtube includes a dig at her. It's the free space on Bingo for game reviewers, it seems. Including Girlfriend Reviews, which was really disappointing.

    (Skill Up mostly reversed course on the character, starting negative in his Beta Impressions, and later saying she was written pretty well in the main game review).

  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Bucketman wrote: »
    I know you shouldn't read the comments. But recent responses to the new Avengers game tell me people either:

    Didn't know Kamela was an already established character and think shes a Mary Sue for...someone I guess?

    Think she was created to forward some kind of anti-white agenda

    Think she was created to forward some kind of anti-man agenda

    in short people are stupid.

    Every other character is white and 4 of the six are men, that's so dumb.

    They portray all the characters very well in the game and the Kamala and Bruce interactions are perfect.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Just because the angry manchildren don't like her doesn't make game!Kamala good

    I really like her comics and I found game Kamala pretty grating. And also like straight up Mary Sue. And I was excited to find out she was in the game! Not because she's young and female but like literally its THE mary sue plot.

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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Just because the angry manchildren don't like her doesn't make game!Kamala good

    I really like her comics and I found game Kamala pretty grating. And also like straight up Mary Sue. And I was excited to find out she was in the game! Not because she's young and female but like literally its THE mary sue plot.

    I don't think you know what that means
    She sneaks out to save the Inhumans, fails, and gets captured and needs Widow to save her.

    Plus parts of the campaign you play as the original Avengers because she can't handle the enemies.

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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    DJ Eebs wrote: »
    I knew intellectually that people would be shitty about her somewhere, but the vast majority of conversations I've seen about the game are incredibly positive about Kamala

    Every review for the game I've watched on Youtube includes a dig at her. It's the free space on Bingo for game reviewers, it seems. Including Girlfriend Reviews, which was really disappointing.

    (Skill Up mostly reversed course on the character, starting negative in his Beta Impressions, and later saying she was written pretty well in the main game review).

    To be fair in the opening of the game its really weird. Shes at the Helicarrier/museum/hero con thing because she entered a fan fiction contest, and Thor, Captain America and Black Widow show up, somehow don't get mobbed by fans and chat with her one on one. Then when Iron Man shows up he finds her in the audience and points out her scarf. Its...not the best writing! Not the fault of the character.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Just because the angry manchildren don't like her doesn't make game!Kamala good

    I really like her comics and I found game Kamala pretty grating. And also like straight up Mary Sue. And I was excited to find out she was in the game! Not because she's young and female but like literally its THE mary sue plot.

    I don't think you know what that means
    She sneaks out to save the Inhumans, fails, and gets captured and needs Widow to save her.

    Plus parts of the campaign you play as the original Avengers because she can't handle the enemies.

    she is literally an elevated fangirl who impresses the avengers with how great of a fan she is, and then oh no the avengers are in trouble but actually she has awesome powers too and so she saves the avengers.

    Except for her not being an actual self insert it is THE Mary Sue plot.

    Kamala Khan the actual good character deserves better than that game

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  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Is Kamala Khan portrayed as being without any flaws/negative traits?

    Cause that's probably the most prominent element of a Mary/Gary Sue.

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Is Kamala Khan portrayed as being without any flaws/negative traits?

    Cause that's probably the most prominent element of a Mary/Gary Sue.

    I think the criticism comes more from the "Fan becomes special and joins the team with all their heroes" angle

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  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Is Kamala Khan portrayed as being without any flaws/negative traits?

    Cause that's probably the most prominent element of a Mary/Gary Sue.

    I think the criticism comes more from the "Fan becomes special and joins the team with all their heroes" angle

    Yeah, while that's a central element of a Mary Sue storyline, that doesn't necessarily contribute in the full-sale defining of a character as a Mary Sue.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited September 28
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Is Kamala Khan portrayed as being without any flaws/negative traits?

    Cause that's probably the most prominent element of a Mary/Gary Sue.

    I think the criticism comes more from the "Fan becomes special and joins the team with all their heroes" angle

    I don't think that's where the criticism actually comes from, though. People liked the Runaways (who started as fans, although more cynical), and Molly beat up Wolverine.

    Fencingsax on
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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Kamala isn't a Mary Sue in the game, that is dumb

    She makes mistakes, she gets upset, she has to be saved multiple times, etc.

    She is the main character, of course she is going to be the most important person in the story and a central figure for the team

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Is Kamala Khan portrayed as being without any flaws/negative traits?

    Cause that's probably the most prominent element of a Mary/Gary Sue.

    I think the criticism comes more from the "Fan becomes special and joins the team with all their heroes" angle

    Arguably this happened twice in the movies already. First with Ant Man who tries to defer to the Avengers immediately before doing any heroing himself and is gobsmacked to join the team himself later. Then with Spider-Man. I don't recall either of them ever being suggested as Mary Sue's?

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Honestly the concept of a Mary Sue should be thrown in the garbage

    It is a poisoned term and 9 times out of 10 a character being called as such doesn't even fit the bill

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  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    I think Mary Sue is a relatively useless term to talk about characters in media and it should probably be retired.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    Honestly the concept of a Mary Sue should be thrown in the garbage

    It is a poisoned term and 9 times out of 10 a character being called as such doesn't even fit the bill

    I think this is absolutely true for published works, yes.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    There’s a reason why I am pedantic with the “fridge go” trope, because the more generalized it becomes the less useful it is for discussion, just like Mary Sue became.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Is Kamala Khan portrayed as being without any flaws/negative traits?

    Cause that's probably the most prominent element of a Mary/Gary Sue.

    I think the criticism comes more from the "Fan becomes special and joins the team with all their heroes" angle

    I mean thats literally her origin. Its a running joke that she takes selfies with any hero she meets.

    Her powers arent particularly OP compared to say Mystique or Hank Pym she's just a fun new character and her problems which obviously wouldn't be covered in a game are more about her civilian life ( which I know is uncommon for a Marvel character/s] )

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    There’s a reason why I am pedantic with the “fridge go” trope, because the more generalized it becomes the less useful it is for discussion, just like Mary Sue became.

    I think tropes minimizing the agency of women are way more prevalent than a "Mary Sue" type thing.

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  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    I can never really complain about a character being a whatever-Sue.

    I don't care if a character is impeccably good at 99% of the tasks they perform.

    I watch shows like MacGyver and Xena.

    I'm fine with hyper-competent characters.

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    edited September 28
    There’s a reason why I am pedantic with the “fridge go” trope, because the more generalized it becomes the less useful it is for discussion, just like Mary Sue became.
    No, Fridged absolutely still has use.

    Mary Sue is largely used by sexist shitheads who think any woman being treated as a competent main character is bad writing

    Fridging is a legitimate problem that media STILL has where women are killed solely to make men feel sad about it, more more than 20 years after the comic issue that spawned the concept. Even if folks misuse it, it doesn't have the same toxic misogyny baked in that nukes Mary Sue from ever being useful again. It being generalized is annoying, but not, like, actively damaging in the same way.

    BlankZoe on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    There’s a reason why I am pedantic with the “fridge go” trope, because the more generalized it becomes the less useful it is for discussion, just like Mary Sue became.
    No, Fridged absolutely still has use.

    Mary Sue is largely used by sexist shitheads who think any woman being treated as a competent main character is bad writing

    Fridging is a legitimate problem that media STILL has where women are killed solely to make men feel sad about it, more more than 20 years after the comic issue that spawned the concept. Even if folks misuse it, it doesn't have the same toxic misogyny baked in that nukes Mary Sue from ever being useful again.

    Right. I am saying the Fridging does have a use and that I don’t want it to become like Mary Sue has.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    That term uses both my mom and my sister's name so I extra don't like it.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    That term uses both my mom and my sister's name so I extra don't like it.

    Your sister's name is Rysue?

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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I wish I had a relative called Fridge.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    I wish I had a relative called Fridge.

    My uncle Will is technically a GI Joe and a Fridge

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  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    edited September 28
    Honestly, the singleplayer portion of the Avengers is pretty good. The idea that Khamala is a mary sue is pretty wrong because she's messing up constantly.
    As well as being almost immediately captured by AIM and needing to be saved by Black Widow in the opening, she outright goes against the avengers wishes later on and gets herself captured and needs saving by widow a second time. She's also not the only inhuman hero in the story, Hank Pym has an inhuman resistance. It's just that Khamala meets Banner by basically chance that she ends up with the Avengers.

    The storyline isn't perfect (there are some weird leaps at some points) but Khamala is definitely shown as flawed. There's a reasonable fun Avengers brawler in the single player, and it does an extremely good job of capturing the characters, both storywise and gameplaywise as well. It's just a pity about all the horrible bugs and the multiplayer stuff that is fun but was clearly a co-op they tried to expand into a GaaS thing.

    The game does get major props for actually portraying Khamala's background pretty openly. There's talk of retreats arranged by her mosque and at one point she explains a burkini to Tony. I enjoyed her enough to have ordered her initial comics run.

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  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    @shoeboxjeddy : New American Vampire will be out next week (6th of October). Just a reminder, because we talked about it earlier in this thread.

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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    For the record, Khamala is one of my favorite characters in the past however many years, shes fun and refreshing and I like her in books. Its just the writing in the part of the game I saw (the beginning) is bad. Some people say shes a Mary Sue but they are wrong, I think the game just has poor writing.

    Ringo
  • BobbleBobble Registered User regular
    I've barely read any of Kamala's comics but I loved her in the game (I do think the beginning of the campaign was the weaker part for her). There were a few cringey moments because she's a giant goddamned fangirl, but that's who she is and the good moments were really strong.

    Ringo
  • JimothyJimothy Not in front of the fox he's with the owlRegistered User regular
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Hey do you want a lot of very good comics for not much money (that's going to charity regardless):

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  • HawkstoneHawkstone The state of intoxicationRegistered User regular
    DJ Eebs wrote: »
    I think Mary Sue is a relatively useless term to talk about characters in media and it should probably be retired.

    Except for Kvothe....lol

    Inside of a dog...it's too dark to read.
  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    Picked up my comic today, hoping to get Blackwood v2, but they didn't have it yet (kinda makes sense, issue #4 of the trade came out a week before the trade itself was due to appear, but I guess these were the usual shipping delays we get from time to time over here.)

    Did pick up Excalibur, X-factor 3+4 (been a while since I went), Ascender and Tartarus volume 1. Also LCS assistant advised me to pick up the X-Men chapter of X of Swords, because it's what I was dreading: the kind of crossover that requires you to read every single series or the story won't make sense (I prefer the ones were individual titles are dealing with the same bigger issue, but are still clearly focused on being part of the ongoing title). I won't be picking up X-Force or Cable or Wolverine though (or whatever other titles I'm forgetting).

    X-Factor #4 is a prime example of this: The whole story from #3 comes grinding to a stop to be replaced by chapter Y of X of another story. Only Polaris has a role in #4 and Rachel has a tiny part, the rest of the team is nowhere to be seen. I really liked #1 of this series and I felt the excursion to the Mojoverse in #2 and #3 was not the direction the series needed at that point (though on the upside I think I got Winddancer back, who was always one of my favourites of her era of mutants). Even with the whole crossover thing ignored, I still didn't like this issue:

    Spoilers for X-Factor #4 and Sword of X so far (as far as I got the whole story):
    Polaris feels guilty, because Rockslide got killed with a sword last chapter, something she felt she could have prevented if she had reacted just a bit faster. The resurrection process goes wrong and Rockslide is revived, but it's not really him and all backups are corrupted, because literally magic. If a mutant dies on Otherworld, the Cerebro backups everywhere are corrupted for that mutant, because magic. (I figure it's to give the duel the X-Men have agreed to with Apocalypse's kids in Otherworld, some more impact now that they can no longer just resurrect any particpants, but this felt like it needed another

    Otherworld is completely changed from the one that appeared back in Moore/Delano/Davis Captain Britain/Excalibur, but that has been an ongoing proces for years now. It's now multiple independent kingdoms that owe fealty to the Citadel with Saturnyne at the top (two of the kingdoms are lead by Roma and Merlyn, who used to be Saturnyne's bosses, so that is a bit of change in power dynamics. One of the Kingdoms has Jamie Braddock as the ruler, one has a version of the Fury and one has a version of Jim Jaspers... having both Jamie and Jaspers around seems redundant and having a Fury in there, is asking for big trouble. Overall it appears that they want to do a whole Seelie/Unseelie Court thing the Fae have in folklore but then with established characters.)

    Happy to see Saturnyne in a story again as more than a background character, but she is not the Saturnyne I loved from Moore's Captain Britain (Brian, back in early Excalibur when asked by Rachel what powers Saturnyne has, comes to the conclusion that she did not seem to have any powers, but she never seemed outmatched.) Saturnyne here has a lot of magic power at her disposal. I still like her depiction her though.

    On the positive side:
    Happy to see M getting a big role (as far as we can tell so far)
    Happy to see Apocalypse show some human emotions.

    BTW I thought no clairvoyants were allowed on Krakoa, but Tarot is there and giving readings to the Council. I guess because her visions require some interpretation on her part, while Destiny's leave little room for doubt

    I hope Marauders is allowed to do its own thing for the crossover but I doubt it. Then again Marauders has its own voice much more than any of the other titles, so I may be wrong.

    Now off to read Tartarus.

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