Like trying to frame this as some kind of revolt that people should burn their money about is a nice way to make sure you're not the last one off the train here.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
In addition to GameStop, several other publicly traded companies, including AMC; BlackBerry; Bed, Bath, and Beyond; Nokia; and Tootsie Roll Industries,10 have seen huge shifts in their share price driven by similar internet trading schemes. These wild fluctuations are just the latest indication that many private equity firms, hedge funds, and other investors, big and small, are treating the stock market like a casino, giving little consideration to the companies, communities, workers, and consumers that may be affected by these risky bets. The recent chaos reveals a clear distortion in securities markets, with benefits accruing to investors that do not clearly benefit the company’s workers, consumers, or the broader economy.
The SEC has a mandate to “protect investors; maintain fair, orderly, and efficient markets; and facilitate capital formation,” and “promote a market environment that is worthy of the public’s trust.”17 The Commission must review recent market activity affecting GameStop and other companies, and act to ensure that markets reflect real value, rather than the highly leveraged bets of wealthy traders or those who seek to inflict financial damage on those traders. To protect and restore public trust in sound securities regulation and enforcement, the Commission must identify gaps in existing securities laws and rules and ways in which the Commission can improve its enforcement capabilities.
Hedge funds, banks, billionaires and even well off retail traders have been speculating for decades and making money off it.
The general public does it en masse once and that's the thing that kicks off the need for new regulations?
This stinks of government fearing what organised self-directed public capital can do
Warren's entire reason for being in the Senate is getting pissed off at the antics of large companies. (well and the GOP fucking with the consumer protection bureau). That isn't what she's going for here.
This is, at its core, retail traders trying to bankrupt a hedge fund and maybe get rich doing it. She should be for that, IMO. AOC has figured that much out.
This take reads like the people who came into this thread yesterday and called GME a bunch of tulip bulbs thinking it made them sound smart.
I think when you get to the point where you are trying to frame Warren as a Wall St shill, you should probably reassess your own framing of the situation.
I'm not sure why you think Warren should be in favour of this kind of crazy volatility.
I don't think she should be in favor of it, but I think she is trying to "both sides" the issue.
Coming out as anti-volatility when the retail traders need that volatility right now in order to win is not really a pro-retail position.
How is she trying to "both sides" the issue? She's literally just saying this situation is crazy, what the fuck is going on.
Again, when you are claiming that Elizabeth Warren is trying to take the side of Wall St, that's probably a point where you should re-examine your priors. You seem to be taking the position that anyone not just immediately cheering on some nebulous group of supposed "little guy" investors must be wrong.
I mean yeah, I guess I am taking the position that we should be cheering non-billionaires bankrupting hedge funds.
"This is all crazy and needs to stop" is a perfectly valid position also, but I personally am not going to take that position right as retail traders are discovering how much power they can have when organised.
I guess with Warren though that's probably been her position the whole time, so she might just be sticking to her guns.
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
Like trying to frame this as some kind of revolt that people should burn their money about is a nice way to make sure you're not the last one off the train here.
Its like playing EVE. Don't spend/pilot anything you aren't willing to lose and also like EVE people don't follow that rule and get burned all the time.
I think trying to cast anyone in a capitalist knife fight like this as definitely the good guys is a good way to find yourself defending monsters
One can think of it like Godzilla vs. King Kong where even if both sides are monsters you may still cheer for one over the other.
I mean you cheer for King Kong right? Because at least he's an ape and maybe he'll have pity on us smaller apes.
I'm pretty sure once King Kong takes out the other monsters you can just set him up on tinder or grindr or something and try and find him a nice lady/gentlemen and he'll calm right the fuck down.
Yea the poors and their 600 dollar government checks are totally bankrupting the hedge funds... It would have taken 166 thousand people with 600 dollar checks to produce a 2 billion dollar loss like that. (edit at 20x return on each)... For 600 dollar checks to produce the losses that are calculated it would take something like 5% of the nation getting in on this
Yea the poors and their 600 dollar government checks are totally bankrupting the hedge funds... It would have taken 166 thousand people with 600 dollar checks to produce a 2 billion dollar loss like that.
It's about perception. Sub-billionaires are 'the poors' to them. They're mad that a group or groups they perceive as beneath them is giving them a dose of their own medicine. They're mad that these people seem to have forgotten their place.
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
That's basically the play, hold out till the shorts must buy the socks. After that point it's a free fall
FCC I think you're looking for more than most people are into this for. Like sure some people have convinced themselves this is the October Revolution but for most of us this is watching the kid who youre pretty sure steals from people's lockers get in a fight with the kid who threatens to get his dad to fire your dad and we're all just standing around hollaring and egging them on.
Yesterday it was definitely framed as a revolution prior to the end of the world due to resource wars and a nuclear holocaust committed by India/Pakistan/China so like forgive me if I cannot tell who is rubbernecking, who thinks this is a legitimately righteous act, and who loves finance broposting.
I am deeply concerned with all emergent internet phenomena because the aggregate actions made by multiple people are frequently made instantaneously and without context or time for reflection. This one is no different from the others. I guess I am just trying to understand why people are excited about it.
Personally, I think it is hilarious as a concept but I can't envision it being a righteous act of revolution as portrayed by some. Also, I am very concerned about our collective inattention to details when we get excited about something. I feel we have a duty to be better than the gossiping neighbor asking why the ambulance is three doors down and making up some dumbass story about how they think it is that one family who does that one thing. Does that make sense?
It can be all those things and none of them. You clearly seem to know exactly why people feel the way they do about this, and are taking a contrarian point of view to what? Stir up the thread by asking open ended questions you already know the answer to? I mean it's predator versus alien, no matter who wins we lose, but seeing the rich squirm might be one piece of badly needed relief after the year everyone's had, and the not to great looking future ahead of them. It's populism, with all the good and bad that entails.
I think, in general, pearl clutching about making sure we have every last dollar accounted for for every last hedge fund so we can calculate the precise amount of schadenfreude to have at their expense is a fool's errand.
AMC is returning to a valuation that makes sense based on its fundamentals. GME is downwards (likely due to profit taking) but still absurd.
The funny thing is if you look at pre-coronavirus levels 12 dollars for amc is possibly overvalued but probably not that absurd at all. They should be returning to business as usual soon and will have a market where a lot of the competition has gone out of business.
Not to mention a backlog of movies (unreleased and potential re-releases for those that tried and fell short of expectations), and pent up consumer interest in doing *something*, ANYTHING.
Doubly so since many things like travel and tourism will likely be a long drawn out return to normal (if ever), but something as simple as 'going to the movies' might be all but a non-issue in a span of quarters, perhaps even months (fingers crossed).
As long as AMC doesn't catch fire, fall over, and sink into the swamp, they might stand to do quite well once restrictions can start relaxing in a safe and sustainable way.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
1) It gets sold into the ground over the next few weeks because no one ever really cared about the stock
2) It becomes a meme like bitcoin where it maintains some crazy value because internet weirdos value it and everyone's like "how is this still a thing"
3) Something in between where most people sell out, but enough WSB die hards hold so the stock isn't worthless
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
There is no single plan. There literally cannot be one because WSB isn't a single hivemind and while people can egg each other on a coordinated effort to get out at the same time may be viewed as price fixing or other illegal actions. Different people got in at different times as well that and that will affect their individual end goals as well.
How does this valuation present itself with GME? Can they expand their selection of funko pops?
I guess in theory it empowers Ryan Cohen with added momentum to institute the changes he wants to see going forward. And free publicity for Gamestop is free publicity, which could manifest in surprising ways. Ultimately though, what Gamestop needs is a radical change in their core business, or gaming to go back to disc based media.
Personally I am kind of shocked that a bunch of leftists would be rooting for the democratization of participation in a broken and exploitative capital system simply because you "think" that it is allegedly (and so far there has been 0 proof as far as I can tell) destroying hedge funds. Just like completely baffled by the general sentiment. I am curious to see a post-mortem in a few weeks.
why would a bunch of leftists like the idea of an insanely corrupt and brutal financial system even for one day being forced to cash out money to people who are on the short end of the stick so often and be publicly embarrassed?
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
The very, very short version is, GME is shorted over 100%. That means that if all the shorts get called, there is a guaranteed buyer for every share. The shorts can get called if the price rises above a certain amount and/or the brokerage might close out their short to avoid further loses. In order to close a short, they must buy a stock. This sends the price higher. This causes more shorts to have to close.
If it sets off a truly insane chain reaction of shorts closing to cut loses, it could clear the order book completely, and every sell order on the book will clear at any price. During some of the halted trading yesterday, there were bids of $150 against asks for $4000! That is a truly deranged spread. There have been scattered tales of sell limits above 2000 being executed.
Mine didn't though, so take these tales with a grain of salt.
Basically, if they pull off this short squeeze and the hedge funds don't find a way out, if you have GME and you have a sell limit, you will get your fucking money.
After that, anyone who didn't set a sell limit will be left holding a $10 stock if they are lucky.
Not going to defend WSB, but despite it being a cesspool when I started reading it a few years ago, it's the reason I taught myself options trading.
Regardless of how all this shakes out, I think it's neat that a lot of folks are being spurred to get a bit of education on finance etc.
I won't lie, after all that happened this week I'd love to try and get in on the action the next time something like this happens (if there is a next time). I don't want to go back and click Join on WallStreetBets again because it mostly looks like a lot of useless noise with any helpful information buried underneath, but I wouldn't mind getting some kind of periodic update on what they're up to just in case they're about to blow another stock's price sky high.
Everyone wants that, that's just not really how the market works. It's like gold mining to find good nuggets you are going have to dig through shit.
And like gold mining, the people that get rich are the ones selling goods and services to the miners.
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
That's basically the play, hold out till the shorts must buy the socks. After that point it's a free fall
Yeah we are a bit in the wild west, but traditionally it works like the following:
People buy up a bunch of shares. Short positions are called. Those positions have to buy shares at inflated prices to pay off the positions. Stock goes sky high... until sufficient shares change hands that the short contract is fulfilled, at which point everyone still holding the stock loses their ass.
This is why piggly wiggly guy went bankrupt - when they paused trading on the market exchanges that gave a chance for the shorters to shop for better deals.
So piggly wiggly stock should be 200 dollars but is 100 because of shorting. piggy wiggly guy buys shares up to 1,000 dollars(arbitrary not real numbers) to try to raise the price and get as much stock as he can. Shorts come due, normally what happens is piggly wiggly guy can ask his price, so maybe then he offers the shorters shares for 10,000 a piece to get out of their position and makes a killing.
What happened though, and probably happened to a lesser extent yesterday, is the market makers came together and said “TIME OUT” and pushed back the short due date by a few days. This allowed the shorters time to go to every widow, pensioner, and small time broker and say “hey you have this stock which is on the books for 1000 but is in a bubble and the bubble pops when trading resumes. We will give you book value today for all your shares. The shorters got enough shares together, fulfilled their (vastly overdue but ignored) positions, and got out with a loss but not a crippling one. Meanwhile piggly wiggly guy was left with a bunch of worthless stock because post squeeze the price cratered and had to go bankrupt.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
The very, very short version is, GME is shorted over 100%. That means that if all the shorts get called, there is a guaranteed buyer for every share. The shorts can get called if the price rises above a certain amount and/or the brokerage might close out their short to avoid further loses. In order to close a short, they must buy a stock. This sends the price higher. This causes more shorts to have to close.
If it sets off a truly insane chain reaction of shorts closing to cut loses, it could clear the order book completely, and every sell order on the book will clear at any price. During some of the halted trading yesterday, there were bids of $150 against asks for $4000! That is a truly deranged spread. There have been scattered tales of sell limits above 2000 being executed.
Mine didn't though, so take these tales with a grain of salt.
Basically, if they pull off this short squeeze and the hedge funds don't find a way out, if you have GME and you have a sell limit, you will get your fucking money.
After that, anyone who didn't set a sell limit will be left holding a $10 stock if they are lucky.
I mean, the sell limit is not a guarantee, no? The price of the stock could plummet way past that before anyone snaps up your share, it's not a guaranteed first in first out thing.
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
That's basically the play, hold out till the shorts must buy the socks. After that point it's a free fall
Yeah we are a bit in the wild west, but traditionally it works like the following:
People buy up a bunch of shares. Short positions are called. Those positions have to buy shares at inflated prices to pay off the positions. Stock goes sky high... until sufficient shares change hands that the short contract is fulfilled, at which point everyone still holding the stock loses their ass.
This is why piggly wiggly guy went bankrupt - when they paused trading on the market exchanges that gave a chance for the shorters to shop for better deals.
So piggly wiggly stock should be 200 dollars but is 100 because of shorting. piggy wiggly guy buys shares up to 1,000 dollars(arbitrary not real numbers) to try to raise the price and get as much stock as he can. Shorts come due, normally what happens is piggly wiggly guy can ask his price, so maybe then he offers the shorters shares for 10,000 a piece to get out of their position and makes a killing.
What happened though, and probably happened to a lesser extent yesterday, is the market makers came together and said “TIME OUT” and pushed back the short due date by a few days. This allowed the shorters time to go to every widow, pensioner, and small time broker and say “hey you have this stock which is on the books for 1000 but is in a bubble and the bubble pops when trading resumes. We will give you book value today for all your shares. The shorters got enough shares together, fulfilled their (vastly overdue but ignored) positions, and got out with a loss but not a crippling one. Meanwhile piggly wiggly guy was left with a bunch of worthless stock because post squeeze the price cratered and had to go bankrupt.
This is only how it works if the same person owns all the shares as is owed the shorted shares. That's not the case here, so what's more likely to actually happen is:
Shorters needs to return 1000 shares. The lowest sell order is 10 shares at $250
Shorters buy the 10 shares and return them. The new holder of the shares immediately sells them at the market price of $250
Repeat x99
The shorter loses out immensely. Entities that owned GME pre-bubble and sold when it was high gain immensely. People who bought up shares after the price started climbing and put sell orders at $2000 watch their unrealized gains disappear.
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
The very, very short version is, GME is shorted over 100%. That means that if all the shorts get called, there is a guaranteed buyer for every share. The shorts can get called if the price rises above a certain amount and/or the brokerage might close out their short to avoid further loses. In order to close a short, they must buy a stock. This sends the price higher. This causes more shorts to have to close.
If it sets off a truly insane chain reaction of shorts closing to cut loses, it could clear the order book completely, and every sell order on the book will clear at any price. During some of the halted trading yesterday, there were bids of $150 against asks for $4000! That is a truly deranged spread. There have been scattered tales of sell limits above 2000 being executed.
Mine didn't though, so take these tales with a grain of salt.
Basically, if they pull off this short squeeze and the hedge funds don't find a way out, if you have GME and you have a sell limit, you will get your fucking money.
After that, anyone who didn't set a sell limit will be left holding a $10 stock if they are lucky.
I mean, the sell limit is not a guarantee, no? The price of the stock could plummet way past that before anyone snaps up your share, it's not a guaranteed first in first out thing.
Like I said, the very short version.
The short sellers could manage to avoid the squeeze. The SEC could halt trading because fuck you that's why. Brokerages could just go "Oops, we actually couldn't settle your purchase of GME in the first place, it's gone". Some of the shenanigans we've seen are already unprecedented.
But people we smarter than myself have written long and convincing articles filled with market data that the shorts are too numerous, the volume and liquidity is too low, and the fees to put off closing positions too high, for this to be escaped through legitimate means.
If the market is allowed to market, everyone with a sell limit gets their fucking money. That's increasingly becoming a big if as the major players whinge about "systemic risk".
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
The very, very short version is, GME is shorted over 100%. That means that if all the shorts get called, there is a guaranteed buyer for every share. The shorts can get called if the price rises above a certain amount and/or the brokerage might close out their short to avoid further loses. In order to close a short, they must buy a stock. This sends the price higher. This causes more shorts to have to close.
If it sets off a truly insane chain reaction of shorts closing to cut loses, it could clear the order book completely, and every sell order on the book will clear at any price. During some of the halted trading yesterday, there were bids of $150 against asks for $4000! That is a truly deranged spread. There have been scattered tales of sell limits above 2000 being executed.
Mine didn't though, so take these tales with a grain of salt.
Basically, if they pull off this short squeeze and the hedge funds don't find a way out, if you have GME and you have a sell limit, you will get your fucking money.
After that, anyone who didn't set a sell limit will be left holding a $10 stock if they are lucky.
I mean, the sell limit is not a guarantee, no? The price of the stock could plummet way past that before anyone snaps up your share, it's not a guaranteed first in first out thing.
Pretty sure it is FIFO but that is kind of true as someone has to be buying. But if the price is dipping the only buyer is people who are forced to die to peeing shares then your sell limit will be executed at its limit.
In addition to GameStop, several other publicly traded companies, including AMC; BlackBerry; Bed, Bath, and Beyond; Nokia; and Tootsie Roll Industries,10 have seen huge shifts in their share price driven by similar internet trading schemes. These wild fluctuations are just the latest indication that many private equity firms, hedge funds, and other investors, big and small, are treating the stock market like a casino, giving little consideration to the companies, communities, workers, and consumers that may be affected by these risky bets. The recent chaos reveals a clear distortion in securities markets, with benefits accruing to investors that do not clearly benefit the company’s workers, consumers, or the broader economy.
The SEC has a mandate to “protect investors; maintain fair, orderly, and efficient markets; and facilitate capital formation,” and “promote a market environment that is worthy of the public’s trust.”17 The Commission must review recent market activity affecting GameStop and other companies, and act to ensure that markets reflect real value, rather than the highly leveraged bets of wealthy traders or those who seek to inflict financial damage on those traders. To protect and restore public trust in sound securities regulation and enforcement, the Commission must identify gaps in existing securities laws and rules and ways in which the Commission can improve its enforcement capabilities.
Hedge funds, banks, billionaires and even well off retail traders have been speculating for decades and making money off it.
The general public does it en masse once and that's the thing that kicks off the need for new regulations?
This stinks of government fearing what organised self-directed public capital can do
Warren's entire reason for being in the Senate is getting pissed off at the antics of large companies. (well and the GOP fucking with the consumer protection bureau). That isn't what she's going for here.
This is, at its core, retail traders trying to bankrupt a hedge fund and maybe get rich doing it. She should be for that, IMO. AOC has figured that much out.
This take reads like the people who came into this thread yesterday and called GME a bunch of tulip bulbs thinking it made them sound smart.
I think when you get to the point where you are trying to frame Warren as a Wall St shill, you should probably reassess your own framing of the situation.
I'm not sure why you think Warren should be in favour of this kind of crazy volatility.
While I hold no love for the likes of Leon Cooperman, I do not like the idea of Redditors being the ones to keep hedge fund vultures in check. I want folk like Warren writing laws to fix it. This event is good popcorn entertainment, but should not be the expectation.
And markets closed with it at 325. So those 115 and 250 calls which seemed like insane dollar shredding bets from ...ohh yeah monday...just closed deep ITM.
FCC I think you're looking for more than most people are into this for. Like sure some people have convinced themselves this is the October Revolution but for most of us this is watching the kid who youre pretty sure steals from people's lockers get in a fight with the kid who threatens to get his dad to fire your dad and we're all just standing around hollaring and egging them on.
Yesterday it was definitely framed as a revolution prior to the end of the world due to resource wars and a nuclear holocaust committed by India/Pakistan/China so like forgive me if I cannot tell who is rubbernecking, who thinks this is a legitimately righteous act, and who loves finance broposting.
I am deeply concerned with all emergent internet phenomena because the aggregate actions made by multiple people are frequently made instantaneously and without context or time for reflection. This one is no different from the others. I guess I am just trying to understand why people are excited about it.
Personally, I think it is hilarious as a concept but I can't envision it being a righteous act of revolution as portrayed by some. Also, I am very concerned about our collective inattention to details when we get excited about something. I feel we have a duty to be better than the gossiping neighbor asking why the ambulance is three doors down and making up some dumbass story about how they think it is that one family who does that one thing. Does that make sense?
It can be all those things and none of them. You clearly seem to know exactly why people feel the way they do about this, and are taking a contrarian point of view to what? Stir up the thread by asking open ended questions you already know the answer to? I mean it's predator versus alien, no matter who wins we lose, but seeing the rich squirm might be one piece of badly needed relief after the year everyone's had, and the not to great looking future ahead of them. It's populism, with all the good and bad that entails.
Let me assure you that I am 100% serious when I ask questions and I am not here to troll nor have I ever been. Accusing me of stirring things is up is not an acceptable answer to my discussion points which I am genuinely invested in talking about.
I started reading up on this stuff the other day and the one question I still don't see an answer to is...
If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
The very, very short version is, GME is shorted over 100%. That means that if all the shorts get called, there is a guaranteed buyer for every share. The shorts can get called if the price rises above a certain amount and/or the brokerage might close out their short to avoid further loses. In order to close a short, they must buy a stock. This sends the price higher. This causes more shorts to have to close.
If it sets off a truly insane chain reaction of shorts closing to cut loses, it could clear the order book completely, and every sell order on the book will clear at any price. During some of the halted trading yesterday, there were bids of $150 against asks for $4000! That is a truly deranged spread. There have been scattered tales of sell limits above 2000 being executed.
Mine didn't though, so take these tales with a grain of salt.
Basically, if they pull off this short squeeze and the hedge funds don't find a way out, if you have GME and you have a sell limit, you will get your fucking money.
After that, anyone who didn't set a sell limit will be left holding a $10 stock if they are lucky.
I mean, the sell limit is not a guarantee, no? The price of the stock could plummet way past that before anyone snaps up your share, it's not a guaranteed first in first out thing.
Like I said, the very short version.
The short sellers could manage to avoid the squeeze. The SEC could halt trading because fuck you that's why. Brokerages could just go "Oops, we actually couldn't settle your purchase of GME in the first place, it's gone". Some of the shenanigans we've seen are already unprecedented.
But people we smarter than myself have written long and convincing articles filled with market data that the shorts are too numerous, the volume and liquidity is too low, and the fees to put off closing positions too high, for this to be escaped through legitimate means.
If the market is allowed to market, everyone with a sell limit gets their fucking money. That's increasingly becoming a big if as the major players whinge about "systemic risk".
Or the lenders could decide that they don't want to be stuck with a bunch of worthless stock at the end of this and just allow the shorters to buy their way out without actually making them give them the shares.
I think, in general, pearl clutching about making sure we have every last dollar accounted for for every last hedge fund so we can calculate the precise amount of schadenfreude to have at their expense is a fool's errand.
Pearl clutching isn't actually the phrase that I think you want to use. Nothing about asking for receipts is particularly hysteric -- to use another inappropriate gendered phrase.
--edit neither is it morally wrong to ask you to provide sources for the rather extreme positions you've taken up to and including a global market conspiracy.
Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
In addition to GameStop, several other publicly traded companies, including AMC; BlackBerry; Bed, Bath, and Beyond; Nokia; and Tootsie Roll Industries,10 have seen huge shifts in their share price driven by similar internet trading schemes. These wild fluctuations are just the latest indication that many private equity firms, hedge funds, and other investors, big and small, are treating the stock market like a casino, giving little consideration to the companies, communities, workers, and consumers that may be affected by these risky bets. The recent chaos reveals a clear distortion in securities markets, with benefits accruing to investors that do not clearly benefit the company’s workers, consumers, or the broader economy.
The SEC has a mandate to “protect investors; maintain fair, orderly, and efficient markets; and facilitate capital formation,” and “promote a market environment that is worthy of the public’s trust.”17 The Commission must review recent market activity affecting GameStop and other companies, and act to ensure that markets reflect real value, rather than the highly leveraged bets of wealthy traders or those who seek to inflict financial damage on those traders. To protect and restore public trust in sound securities regulation and enforcement, the Commission must identify gaps in existing securities laws and rules and ways in which the Commission can improve its enforcement capabilities.
Hedge funds, banks, billionaires and even well off retail traders have been speculating for decades and making money off it.
The general public does it en masse once and that's the thing that kicks off the need for new regulations?
This stinks of government fearing what organised self-directed public capital can do
Warren's entire reason for being in the Senate is getting pissed off at the antics of large companies. (well and the GOP fucking with the consumer protection bureau). That isn't what she's going for here.
This is, at its core, retail traders trying to bankrupt a hedge fund and maybe get rich doing it. She should be for that, IMO. AOC has figured that much out.
This take reads like the people who came into this thread yesterday and called GME a bunch of tulip bulbs thinking it made them sound smart.
I think when you get to the point where you are trying to frame Warren as a Wall St shill, you should probably reassess your own framing of the situation.
I'm not sure why you think Warren should be in favour of this kind of crazy volatility.
While I hold no love for the likes of Leon Cooperman, I do not like the idea of Redditors being the ones to keep hedge fund vultures in check. I want folk like Warren writing laws to fix it. This event is good popcorn entertainment, but should not be the expectation.
I think (hope) that legislation is more likely outcome. It's good that the WSB folks catapulted the sketchiness of the hedge funds into public view. Though I'm not sure they could play kingmakers anyway, this was kind of a very specific situation.
In addition to GameStop, several other publicly traded companies, including AMC; BlackBerry; Bed, Bath, and Beyond; Nokia; and Tootsie Roll Industries,10 have seen huge shifts in their share price driven by similar internet trading schemes. These wild fluctuations are just the latest indication that many private equity firms, hedge funds, and other investors, big and small, are treating the stock market like a casino, giving little consideration to the companies, communities, workers, and consumers that may be affected by these risky bets. The recent chaos reveals a clear distortion in securities markets, with benefits accruing to investors that do not clearly benefit the company’s workers, consumers, or the broader economy.
The SEC has a mandate to “protect investors; maintain fair, orderly, and efficient markets; and facilitate capital formation,” and “promote a market environment that is worthy of the public’s trust.”17 The Commission must review recent market activity affecting GameStop and other companies, and act to ensure that markets reflect real value, rather than the highly leveraged bets of wealthy traders or those who seek to inflict financial damage on those traders. To protect and restore public trust in sound securities regulation and enforcement, the Commission must identify gaps in existing securities laws and rules and ways in which the Commission can improve its enforcement capabilities.
Hedge funds, banks, billionaires and even well off retail traders have been speculating for decades and making money off it.
The general public does it en masse once and that's the thing that kicks off the need for new regulations?
This stinks of government fearing what organised self-directed public capital can do
Warren's entire reason for being in the Senate is getting pissed off at the antics of large companies. (well and the GOP fucking with the consumer protection bureau). That isn't what she's going for here.
This is, at its core, retail traders trying to bankrupt a hedge fund and maybe get rich doing it. She should be for that, IMO. AOC has figured that much out.
This take reads like the people who came into this thread yesterday and called GME a bunch of tulip bulbs thinking it made them sound smart.
I think when you get to the point where you are trying to frame Warren as a Wall St shill, you should probably reassess your own framing of the situation.
I'm not sure why you think Warren should be in favour of this kind of crazy volatility.
While I hold no love for the likes of Leon Cooperman, I do not like the idea of Redditors being the ones to keep hedge fund vultures in check. I want folk like Warren writing laws to fix it. This event is good popcorn entertainment, but should not be the expectation.
I agree, but in the reality where legislation isn't possible, I'll take the Redditors until it is.
In addition to GameStop, several other publicly traded companies, including AMC; BlackBerry; Bed, Bath, and Beyond; Nokia; and Tootsie Roll Industries,10 have seen huge shifts in their share price driven by similar internet trading schemes. These wild fluctuations are just the latest indication that many private equity firms, hedge funds, and other investors, big and small, are treating the stock market like a casino, giving little consideration to the companies, communities, workers, and consumers that may be affected by these risky bets. The recent chaos reveals a clear distortion in securities markets, with benefits accruing to investors that do not clearly benefit the company’s workers, consumers, or the broader economy.
The SEC has a mandate to “protect investors; maintain fair, orderly, and efficient markets; and facilitate capital formation,” and “promote a market environment that is worthy of the public’s trust.”17 The Commission must review recent market activity affecting GameStop and other companies, and act to ensure that markets reflect real value, rather than the highly leveraged bets of wealthy traders or those who seek to inflict financial damage on those traders. To protect and restore public trust in sound securities regulation and enforcement, the Commission must identify gaps in existing securities laws and rules and ways in which the Commission can improve its enforcement capabilities.
Hedge funds, banks, billionaires and even well off retail traders have been speculating for decades and making money off it.
The general public does it en masse once and that's the thing that kicks off the need for new regulations?
This stinks of government fearing what organised self-directed public capital can do
Warren's entire reason for being in the Senate is getting pissed off at the antics of large companies. (well and the GOP fucking with the consumer protection bureau). That isn't what she's going for here.
This is, at its core, retail traders trying to bankrupt a hedge fund and maybe get rich doing it. She should be for that, IMO. AOC has figured that much out.
This take reads like the people who came into this thread yesterday and called GME a bunch of tulip bulbs thinking it made them sound smart.
I think when you get to the point where you are trying to frame Warren as a Wall St shill, you should probably reassess your own framing of the situation.
I'm not sure why you think Warren should be in favour of this kind of crazy volatility.
While I hold no love for the likes of Leon Cooperman, I do not like the idea of Redditors being the ones to keep hedge fund vultures in check. I want folk like Warren writing laws to fix it. This event is good popcorn entertainment, but should not be the expectation.
I agree, but in the reality where legislation isn't possible, I'll take the Redditors until it is.
For those in the thread who are saying that this is simply a laugh at rich people, please look at this post. This is a post that encapsulates the position that Redditors are policing the market and/or a hero type.
Can you legitimately conceive of a set of actions Redditors can take to fairly police options long term? I can't.
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I mean you cheer for King Kong right? Because at least he's an ape and maybe he'll have pity on us smaller apes.
I mean yeah, I guess I am taking the position that we should be cheering non-billionaires bankrupting hedge funds.
"This is all crazy and needs to stop" is a perfectly valid position also, but I personally am not going to take that position right as retail traders are discovering how much power they can have when organised.
I guess with Warren though that's probably been her position the whole time, so she might just be sticking to her guns.
Because it makes them so mad and because it's poors doing it with their 'government checks' it makes them so much madder.
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Its like playing EVE. Don't spend/pilot anything you aren't willing to lose and also like EVE people don't follow that rule and get burned all the time.
I'm pretty sure once King Kong takes out the other monsters you can just set him up on tinder or grindr or something and try and find him a nice lady/gentlemen and he'll calm right the fuck down.
It's about perception. Sub-billionaires are 'the poors' to them. They're mad that a group or groups they perceive as beneath them is giving them a dose of their own medicine. They're mad that these people seem to have forgotten their place.
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If WSB holds and the hedge funds go bankrupt, GME will be crazy high. What happens to the stocks at that point, is there anyone left to sell to? Are they going to be worth anything? Or is the plan to hold until it is obvious the hedge funds are done for, then sell the stocks to them at a crazy high rate?
That's basically the play, hold out till the shorts must buy the socks. After that point it's a free fall
It can be all those things and none of them. You clearly seem to know exactly why people feel the way they do about this, and are taking a contrarian point of view to what? Stir up the thread by asking open ended questions you already know the answer to? I mean it's predator versus alien, no matter who wins we lose, but seeing the rich squirm might be one piece of badly needed relief after the year everyone's had, and the not to great looking future ahead of them. It's populism, with all the good and bad that entails.
Not to mention a backlog of movies (unreleased and potential re-releases for those that tried and fell short of expectations), and pent up consumer interest in doing *something*, ANYTHING.
Doubly so since many things like travel and tourism will likely be a long drawn out return to normal (if ever), but something as simple as 'going to the movies' might be all but a non-issue in a span of quarters, perhaps even months (fingers crossed).
As long as AMC doesn't catch fire, fall over, and sink into the swamp, they might stand to do quite well once restrictions can start relaxing in a safe and sustainable way.
1) It gets sold into the ground over the next few weeks because no one ever really cared about the stock
2) It becomes a meme like bitcoin where it maintains some crazy value because internet weirdos value it and everyone's like "how is this still a thing"
3) Something in between where most people sell out, but enough WSB die hards hold so the stock isn't worthless
There is no single plan. There literally cannot be one because WSB isn't a single hivemind and while people can egg each other on a coordinated effort to get out at the same time may be viewed as price fixing or other illegal actions. Different people got in at different times as well that and that will affect their individual end goals as well.
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It has no impact whatsoever unless they issue more shares.
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PSN: AbEntropy
I guess the time to do so and capitalize on this has passed?
I guess in theory it empowers Ryan Cohen with added momentum to institute the changes he wants to see going forward. And free publicity for Gamestop is free publicity, which could manifest in surprising ways. Ultimately though, what Gamestop needs is a radical change in their core business, or gaming to go back to disc based media.
why would a bunch of leftists like the idea of an insanely corrupt and brutal financial system even for one day being forced to cash out money to people who are on the short end of the stick so often and be publicly embarrassed?
who can say, who can say
The very, very short version is, GME is shorted over 100%. That means that if all the shorts get called, there is a guaranteed buyer for every share. The shorts can get called if the price rises above a certain amount and/or the brokerage might close out their short to avoid further loses. In order to close a short, they must buy a stock. This sends the price higher. This causes more shorts to have to close.
If it sets off a truly insane chain reaction of shorts closing to cut loses, it could clear the order book completely, and every sell order on the book will clear at any price. During some of the halted trading yesterday, there were bids of $150 against asks for $4000! That is a truly deranged spread. There have been scattered tales of sell limits above 2000 being executed.
Mine didn't though, so take these tales with a grain of salt.
Basically, if they pull off this short squeeze and the hedge funds don't find a way out, if you have GME and you have a sell limit, you will get your fucking money.
After that, anyone who didn't set a sell limit will be left holding a $10 stock if they are lucky.
This whole thing has read to me as institutional investors not understanding the demographic they were negotiating with.
And like gold mining, the people that get rich are the ones selling goods and services to the miners.
The miners usually lose their shirts.
Yeah we are a bit in the wild west, but traditionally it works like the following:
People buy up a bunch of shares. Short positions are called. Those positions have to buy shares at inflated prices to pay off the positions. Stock goes sky high... until sufficient shares change hands that the short contract is fulfilled, at which point everyone still holding the stock loses their ass.
This is why piggly wiggly guy went bankrupt - when they paused trading on the market exchanges that gave a chance for the shorters to shop for better deals.
So piggly wiggly stock should be 200 dollars but is 100 because of shorting. piggy wiggly guy buys shares up to 1,000 dollars(arbitrary not real numbers) to try to raise the price and get as much stock as he can. Shorts come due, normally what happens is piggly wiggly guy can ask his price, so maybe then he offers the shorters shares for 10,000 a piece to get out of their position and makes a killing.
What happened though, and probably happened to a lesser extent yesterday, is the market makers came together and said “TIME OUT” and pushed back the short due date by a few days. This allowed the shorters time to go to every widow, pensioner, and small time broker and say “hey you have this stock which is on the books for 1000 but is in a bubble and the bubble pops when trading resumes. We will give you book value today for all your shares. The shorters got enough shares together, fulfilled their (vastly overdue but ignored) positions, and got out with a loss but not a crippling one. Meanwhile piggly wiggly guy was left with a bunch of worthless stock because post squeeze the price cratered and had to go bankrupt.
I mean, the sell limit is not a guarantee, no? The price of the stock could plummet way past that before anyone snaps up your share, it's not a guaranteed first in first out thing.
Fffffffff
This is only how it works if the same person owns all the shares as is owed the shorted shares. That's not the case here, so what's more likely to actually happen is:
Shorters needs to return 1000 shares. The lowest sell order is 10 shares at $250
Shorters buy the 10 shares and return them. The new holder of the shares immediately sells them at the market price of $250
Repeat x99
The shorter loses out immensely. Entities that owned GME pre-bubble and sold when it was high gain immensely. People who bought up shares after the price started climbing and put sell orders at $2000 watch their unrealized gains disappear.
Like I said, the very short version.
The short sellers could manage to avoid the squeeze. The SEC could halt trading because fuck you that's why. Brokerages could just go "Oops, we actually couldn't settle your purchase of GME in the first place, it's gone". Some of the shenanigans we've seen are already unprecedented.
But people we smarter than myself have written long and convincing articles filled with market data that the shorts are too numerous, the volume and liquidity is too low, and the fees to put off closing positions too high, for this to be escaped through legitimate means.
If the market is allowed to market, everyone with a sell limit gets their fucking money. That's increasingly becoming a big if as the major players whinge about "systemic risk".
While I hold no love for the likes of Leon Cooperman, I do not like the idea of Redditors being the ones to keep hedge fund vultures in check. I want folk like Warren writing laws to fix it. This event is good popcorn entertainment, but should not be the expectation.
Or the lenders could decide that they don't want to be stuck with a bunch of worthless stock at the end of this and just allow the shorters to buy their way out without actually making them give them the shares.
--edit neither is it morally wrong to ask you to provide sources for the rather extreme positions you've taken up to and including a global market conspiracy.
I think (hope) that legislation is more likely outcome. It's good that the WSB folks catapulted the sketchiness of the hedge funds into public view. Though I'm not sure they could play kingmakers anyway, this was kind of a very specific situation.
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Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
I agree, but in the reality where legislation isn't possible, I'll take the Redditors until it is.
Can you legitimately conceive of a set of actions Redditors can take to fairly police options long term? I can't.